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clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:56 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


I just looked at flights in May, June and July next summer and there's not one day I see AF flying to YUL 5x daily. The most I saw was a brief stint starting June 29th where it's 3x daily, and then 3x per week there's a 4th flight, but *not* daily. Where is this 5x daily you reference???
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:57 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


I just looked at flights in May, June and July next summer and there's not one day I see AF flying to YUL 5x daily. The most I saw was a brief stint starting June 29th where it's 3x daily, and then 3x per week there's a 4th flight, but *not* daily. Where is this 5x daily you reference???


There is no 5x daily service, the peak is 24x weekly, it is likely a misquote.
 
samuelx88
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:35 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


I just looked at flights in May, June and July next summer and there's not one day I see AF flying to YUL 5x daily. The most I saw was a brief stint starting June 29th where it's 3x daily, and then 3x per week there's a 4th flight, but *not* daily. Where is this 5x daily you reference???


I'm very sorry, that's a typo. I meant 4x daily. I'm sorry for those who saw this wrong number.
 
alexdelzotto1
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:45 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
yycdel wrote:

Is this more than YYZ-LHR/LGW?


I believe YYZ-LON is 67 weekly and YUL-PAR is 66.
But when comparing YUL-France vs. YYZ-UK, I believe YUL is one of the top in North America from one city to a specific country.


YYZ-UK weekly flights peak season are as follows:

LHR: 28x AC, 14x BA
LGW: 7x WS, 14 daily TS, 4x BA
DUB: 7x AC, 7x EI, 5x TS
MAN: 7x AC, 5x TS
SNN: 4x AC
GLA: 3x AC, 5x TS
EDI: 4x

That's a total of 114 flights or an average of ~16/day from YYZ to the UK.

YUL-France has a narrow lead, with 116 flights per week as it currently stands, both at their peak (I used the week of July 12th as a reference to check the YYZ-UK numbers, YUL I borrowed from another forum).


DUB & SNN are not part of the UK.
 
samuelx88
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


Deserve is certainly an interesting choice of verb. Why don't you think AF simply follows the money?


I don't want to say any false assumptions, but I'm thinking that perhaps there is a little too close relationship between Air France and YUL administration or Tourisme Montréal. The latter most likely wishes that all flights to France from the province go by YUL (and perhaps they do everything they can to maintain their "monopoly" of airport).

The other problem is that there are over 1 million passengers from YQB that drive 3 hours to YUL every year to get a more direct flight. So Air France doesn't really lose a lot of passenger by excluding YQB because we don't have the choice to drive anyway.

I've used the word deserve because the capital of Québec, one of France's best partner, should get a direct flight with Paris on Air France for political reasons.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:05 pm

jamsco99 wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
I'm pretty surprised AF hasn't tried YQB. There's obviously a huge Quebec-France market, which is only growing with the increasing French migration to Quebec.


YQB is a new market, one that's unproven. IIRC, AC had planned on offering YQB-CDG on the MAX 8 prior to it being grounded. Don't know if AF has an aircraft that would be equivalent with the range.


im sure Zoom used to fly this route.[/quote]

Zoom never served YQB ever from anywhere. TS did for two summers offer a weekly YOW-CDG on a 313, no doubt to prevent Zoom from ever launching that. Once Zoom went so did TS’ YOW-CDG.

It’s a shame that Zoom lost their way coupled with the 2008 financial crash and went bust. They were profitable until the crash and rapid spike in oil and their ill-advised foray into the US transatlantic marketplace.

If AC had planned on YQB-CDG with the MAX it certainly never was made public. Do you know something the rest of us don’t?
 
tofur
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:37 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
jamsco99 wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
I'm pretty surprised AF hasn't tried YQB. There's obviously a huge Quebec-France market, which is only growing with the increasing French migration to Quebec.


YQB is a new market, one that's unproven. IIRC, AC had planned on offering YQB-CDG on the MAX 8 prior to it being grounded. Don't know if AF has an aircraft that would be equivalent with the range.


im sure Zoom used to fly this route.


Zoom never served YQB ever from anywhere. TS did for two summers offer a weekly YOW-CDG on a 313, no doubt to prevent Zoom from ever launching that. Once Zoom went so did TS’ YOW-CDG.

It’s a shame that Zoom lost their way coupled with the 2008 financial crash and went bust. They were profitable until the crash and rapid spike in oil and their ill-advised foray into the US transatlantic marketplace.

If AC had planned on YQB-CDG with the MAX it certainly never was made public. Do you know something the rest of us don’t?[/quote]

I know for certain that Wardair did serve the Quebec City to Paris route in the mid 1980's with Boeing 747 aircraft seating 456 passengers at least twice weekly, perhaps more. I was junior cabin crew at the time and was drafted to work those flights and they were always full.
 
westaust
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:01 am

One piece of the puzzle missing is business class demand out of yqb to paris, this might be one of the reason why AF is not launching flights, too many premium seats, or less business seats but higher pax number which might not be worth using the plane to YQB instead of another city
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:18 am

whywhyzee wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
yycdel wrote:

Is this more than YYZ-LHR/LGW?


I believe YYZ-LON is 67 weekly and YUL-PAR is 66.
But when comparing YUL-France vs. YYZ-UK, I believe YUL is one of the top in North America from one city to a specific country.


YYZ-UK weekly flights peak season are as follows:

LHR: 28x AC, 14x BA
LGW: 7x WS, 14 daily TS, 4x BA
DUB: 7x AC, 7x EI, 5x TS
MAN: 7x AC, 5x TS
SNN: 4x AC
GLA: 3x AC, 5x TS
EDI: 4x

That's a total of 114 flights or an average of ~16/day from YYZ to the UK.

YUL-France has a narrow lead, with 116 flights per week as it currently stands, both at their peak (I used the week of July 12th as a reference to check the YYZ-UK numbers, YUL I borrowed from another forum).


DUB and SNN doesn't count as UK routes anymore...so YYZ-UK would be 85/weekly.
 
jamsco99
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:02 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:43 am

Remember that there are AF buses from Ottawa, Quebec and st foy that connect with AF flights from yul.
you can buy through tickets to/from paris for them from AF. I think they may even be given "flight" numbers. You cant use these buses unless taking an AF transatlantic flight
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:07 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
I suggested ORD and IAH because they serve the 3rd and 5th largest US metro areas, some others suggested EWR and PHL as they are not served currently...


That line of thinking ignores the services of other carriers.



That line of thinking suggests that links between significantly large metro areas such as Chicago, Houston or Philadelphia and another large metro area such as Paris could support more competition and could be better markets for AF to deploy a widebody than YUL

Next summer:
On IAH-CDG, AF is the only player.
On ORD-CDG, AF is 1x daily while UA and AA are also 1x daily
On PHL- CDG, AA is 1x daily
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Thibault973
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 am

Well SS used to fly to Moncton from Paris once a week for a few summers. And with a 580+ seater 747 at that so maybe there is a market there for TS.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 am

Well SS used to fly to Moncton from Paris once a week for a few summers. And with a 580+ seater 747 at that so maybe there is a market there for TS.
 
Toinou
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:28 am

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)

LYS
6 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (332/333)

TLS
5 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (321)

MRS
4 weekly AC (763)
5 weekly TS (332)

NCE
5 weekly AC (333)
2 weekly TS (332)

BOD
3 weekly AC (763)
4 weekly TS (321, 332)

NTE
4 weekly TS (332)

BSL
2 weekly TS (321)


And you can add 7 weekly (in summer) on AC to GVA from YUL on 333. Almost in France and used by many French customers.
 
onwFan
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:16 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each. DL tried ORD-CDG on its own metal a while back and it flopped. SkyTeam just isn't that strong in either of those markets (ORD or IAH).


ORD-CDG on AA is not summer only. It just doesn’t fly from second week of Jan to last week of Mar. Neither UA nor AF is daily during that time. Back to the point,

(Incomplete duplicate - please delete)
Last edited by onwFan on Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
onwFan
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:19 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each. DL tried ORD-CDG on its own metal a while back and it flopped. SkyTeam just isn't that strong in either of those markets (ORD or IAH).


ORD-CDG on AA is not summer only. It just doesn’t fly for ~ 2.5 months from second week of Jan to last week of Mar. Neither UA nor AF is daily during that time. But, yes - in all likelihood there is a lot more money that can be made on CDG-YUL vs ORD/IAH.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:42 am

tofur wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
jamsco99 wrote:

YQB is a new market, one that's unproven. IIRC, AC had planned on offering YQB-CDG on the MAX 8 prior to it being grounded. Don't know if AF has an aircraft that would be equivalent with the range.


im sure Zoom used to fly this route.


Zoom never served YQB ever from anywhere. TS did for two summers offer a weekly YOW-CDG on a 313, no doubt to prevent Zoom from ever launching that. Once Zoom went so did TS’ YOW-CDG.

It’s a shame that Zoom lost their way coupled with the 2008 financial crash and went bust. They were profitable until the crash and rapid spike in oil and their ill-advised foray into the US transatlantic marketplace.

If AC had planned on YQB-CDG with the MAX it certainly never was made public. Do you know something the rest of us don’t?


I know for certain that Wardair did serve the Quebec City to Paris route in the mid 1980's with Boeing 747 aircraft seating 456 passengers at least twice weekly, perhaps more. I was junior cabin crew at the time and was drafted to work those flights and they were always full.[/quote]

I’m not lew that route back then. Even AC flew it weekly in the late 80s with the 762.
 
goldorak
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:36 am

Corsair did also fly ORY-YQB in the past (summer only).
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:23 am

goldorak wrote:
Corsair did also fly ORY-YQB in the past (summer only).


True and didn’t they even have a weekly to Nantes one summer many years ago from YQB? I remember TS retaliated with YQB-MRS for a season or two. All of these flights (and YQM) were YUL originators...and probably 3/4 YUL O&D pax.
 
samuelx88
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:34 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
goldorak wrote:
Corsair did also fly ORY-YQB in the past (summer only).


True and didn’t they even have a weekly to Nantes one summer many years ago from YQB? I remember TS retaliated with YQB-MRS for a season or two. All of these flights (and YQM) were YUL originators...and probably 3/4 YUL O&D pax.


Yes, Corsair did fly ORY-YQB on a 747 and NTE-YQB on a A330 in 2010. The same year, Air Transat was flying YQB-CDG, YQB-MRS and YQB-BOD. So 5 airports and 4 French destinations were available on direct flights from YQB in summer 2010. As a comparison, back then, there was 1 200 000 pax, while in 2018 there was 1 775 000 pax. So YQB would easily be able to get more flights to France nowadays.

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