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jules48
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UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:49 am

Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.
 
LHUSA
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:01 am

Because they are in rapid growth mode. Most of the deals were done before the Max issue.
 
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STT757
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:01 pm

jules48 wrote:
Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.


The deals for second hand aircraft predate the Max groundings. They’re part of UA’s strategy to grow their domestic mainline fleet without adding a mountain of debt. Twelve year old A319s or 73Gs have plenty of service life remaining.


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BrianDromey
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 pm

What are these aircraft like inside? I assume they are refurbished to UA standards, but are there any "giveaways" that they are not original UA aircraft?
 
jetskipper
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:11 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
What are these aircraft like inside? I assume they are refurbished to UA standards, but are there any "giveaways" that they are not original UA aircraft?


Fully updated.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:27 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
What are these aircraft like inside? I assume they are refurbished to UA standards, but are there any "giveaways" that they are not original UA aircraft?


To me they looked like new aircraft on the inside, couldn't tell is was an old China Southern aircraft.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:46 pm

Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:51 pm

Looking at the SDR on one of the former Airtran 73Gs they're getting, they're shockingly new (about half the hours and cycles of some of the current UA 738 fleet.

It's interesting that UA and AA are taking a page out of the old DL playbook of getting some nice used aircraft just as DL is pivoting to buying primarily new fleets.
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jules48
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:43 pm

Thanks everyone for your responses.Being in the UK tend not to take much notice of US domestic route expansion but makes sense now.
 
Varsity1
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.



Some of these Chinese A319's have lingering cigarette smell in the cockpits. It's not unusual for Chinese pilots to smoke in cruise still.
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flight152
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:08 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.

Ash trays are in every lavatory regardless.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:21 pm

jules48 wrote:
Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.


EasyJet completely switched from Boeing 737's Airbus A320 series. Most airlines around the world were getting rid of 737-700's, because the 700's had a higher CASM. Southwest has often sourced used 737's to add to their fleet. It made sense to buy up cheap older models that still had life left in them. Southwest did the same with 737-200's, 300's, and 500's previously. Also due to the pilots' union refusal to have 2 pilot pools, Southwest needed to get more 737-700's to replace the 737-300 fleet when the MAX fleet became operational. There weren't enough slots available for new build 737 NG's quickly enough anyway. It made sense to buy up lots of 737-700's that otherwise we're likely to be scrapped and get another 10-15 years of use out of them. Buying new ones at prices Boeing would be willing to accept would have required operating them 20-25 years.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scorpio
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:23 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
jules48 wrote:
Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.


EasyJet completely switched from Boeing 737's Airbus A320 series. Most airlines around the world were getting rid of 737-700's, because the 700's had a higher CASM. Southwest has often sourced used 737's to add to their fleet. It made sense to buy up cheap older models that still had life left in them. Southwest did the same with 737-200's, 300's, and 500's previously. Also due to the pilots' union refusal to have 2 pilot pools, Southwest needed to get more 737-700's to replace the 737-300 fleet when the MAX fleet became operational. There weren't enough slots available for new build 737 NG's anyway. It made sense to buy up lots of 737-700's that otherwise we're likely to be scrapped and get another 10-15 years of use out of them. Buying new ones at prices Boeing would be willing to accept would have required operating them 20-25 years.

United are getting used A319s from easyJet, not 737s. Those have been gone for years.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:36 pm

Scorpio wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
jules48 wrote:
Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.


EasyJet completely switched from Boeing 737's Airbus A320 series. Most airlines around the world were getting rid of 737-700's, because the 700's had a higher CASM. Southwest has often sourced used 737's to add to their fleet. It made sense to buy up cheap older models that still had life left in them. Southwest did the same with 737-200's, 300's, and 500's previously. Also due to the pilots' union refusal to have 2 pilot pools, Southwest needed to get more 737-700's to replace the 737-300 fleet when the MAX fleet became operational. There weren't enough slots available for new build 737 NG's anyway. It made sense to buy up lots of 737-700's that otherwise we're likely to be scrapped and get another 10-15 years of use out of them. Buying new ones at prices Boeing would be willing to accept would have required operating them 20-25 years.

United are getting used A319s from easyJet, not 737s. Those have been gone for years.


The 737s he's referring to are lease returns from Southwest. His statement was correct.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:46 pm

Scorpio wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
jules48 wrote:
Why are United buying or leasing 2nd hand Boeings,Airbuses from Chinese carriers,Southwest,Easyjet etc.Is it to cover for the out of service Max.


EasyJet completely switched from Boeing 737's Airbus A320 series. Most airlines around the world were getting rid of 737-700's, because the 700's had a higher CASM. Southwest has often sourced used 737's to add to their fleet. It made sense to buy up cheap older models that still had life left in them. Southwest did the same with 737-200's, 300's, and 500's previously. Also due to the pilots' union refusal to have 2 pilot pools, Southwest needed to get more 737-700's to replace the 737-300 fleet when the MAX fleet became operational. There weren't enough slots available for new build 737 NG's anyway. It made sense to buy up lots of 737-700's that otherwise we're likely to be scrapped and get another 10-15 years of use out of them. Buying new ones at prices Boeing would be willing to accept would have required operating them 20-25 years.

United are getting used A319s from easyJet, not 737s. Those have been gone for years.


United is trying to upgauge many stations from RJ's to mainline. Basically a similar dynamic works for United and A319's as 738-700's for Southwest. United already flies the A320 series and has existing pilots and maintenance personnel for them. EasyJet no longer wanted to continue flying A319's as the A320 NEO's that are coming in are much more efficient. There is very little advantage to ordering the A319 NEO. UA buys up A319's at bargain rates from EasyJet as they are coming due for heavy maintenance checks and gets them converted to UA's standards. UA is able to expand the mainline fleet faster than if they were buying all new aircraft.
 
MLIAA
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:13 pm

Doesn’t United exclusively use the IAE engines on the A320 family? Easyjet uses CFMs on their 319s.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:20 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.


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catiii
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:21 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Looking at the SDR on one of the former Airtran 73Gs they're getting, they're shockingly new (about half the hours and cycles of some of the current UA 738 fleet.

It's interesting that UA and AA are taking a page out of the old DL playbook of getting some nice used aircraft just as DL is pivoting to buying primarily new fleets.


Or is DL taking a page out of the AA and UA playbook? :scratchchin:
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:33 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Doesn’t United exclusively use the IAE engines on the A320 family? Easyjet uses CFMs on their 319s.


The CFM fleet will be big enough that it won’t matter, also United has a large 737 fleet which uses the CFM. I’m not sure if it’s the exact same engine, but I’m sure there’s commonality and at the least there is extensive experience with working on them.
 
United1
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.


The lav/galley configuration is different in the back of the exCZ aircraft. On UA aircraft the lavs are on the left side of the aircraft and the galley is on the right. On the exCZ aircraft the both lavs are ahead of the #2 door and the galley stretches across the aircraft aft of the #2 door.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
egnr
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:07 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
What are these aircraft like inside? I assume they are refurbished to UA standards, but are there any "giveaways" that they are not original UA aircraft?


The ex-easyJet A319s will have CFM56 engines whereas the original UA A319s have V2500 engines. The ex-easyJet A319s were all built with 4 overwing exits whereas the original UA A319s were all built with 2 overwing emergency exits. UA may plug a pair of the overwing emergency exits if it is possible, so it may not be obvious from inside the cabin and on the exterior the plugged doors would probably not be clearly outlined, but may still just be visible.

Edit: Beaten to it!
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danipawa
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:32 pm

How many A320/319, B767/B752 and B737 the got so far?
 
CRJ900
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:21 pm

The easyJet A319s have only one aft lavatory - will UA add one more or just have an extra row of seats?
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eamondzhang
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:34 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Some of these Chinese A319's have lingering cigarette smell in the cockpits. It's not unusual for Chinese pilots to smoke in cruise still.

Not anymore - at least the FAR equivalent has been updated and completed banned it. Not sure how it's implemented.

Michael
 
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intotheair
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:55 am

danipawa wrote:
How many A320/319, B767/B752 and B737 the got so far?


The UA Fleet Site (independently maintained by some excellent posters on here) has the best information on the UA fleet.

https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... t-tracking

So far, of used aircraft currently flying for UA:

319: 13 (all ex-China Southern)
320: 2 (ex-China Southern)
73G: 4 (ex-Copa)
753: 12 (ex-ATA, acquired by CO pre-merger)
763: 3 (ex-Hawaiian)

More 319s, 320s, and 73Gs are coming. Former operators include EasyJet, Southwest, Vueling, Shaheen Air, Germania, and China Southern. No CFM-powered Airbuses have joined the UA fleet yet, though they are expected in 2020.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
OB1504
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:31 am

The ex-China Southern A319s and A320s have the fuel panel in the fuselage instead of in the wing. When servicing one, the lack of a fuel panel in the wing is how I can immediately tell.
 
danipawa
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:29 am

Airbus A320 -232 1914 EC-LRE Vueling ferried 28oct19 BCN-OSR, for United Airlines as N4911U ex EI-EUH

source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:50 am

LHUSA wrote:
Because they are in rapid growth mode. Most of the deals were done before the Max issue.


Also UA management wanted to upgauge regional jet routes to mainline narrow body jets. This meant needing to acquire lots more planes than just growth would dictate. Since the existing passengers for these routes are already paying a premium for their service, having an older somewhat higher CASM mainline jet (for a mainline jet)would actually result in lower CASM than the regional jets they would replace, it makes lots of sense to acquire cheap well maintained A319's on the second hand market. As these are mid life jets in need of a heavy maintenance check anyway, refreshing the interiors with new UA standard interiors makes sense given they have a long and useful expected life at UA.
 
hz747300
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:18 pm

flight152 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.

Ash trays are in every lavatory regardless.


I thought smoking in the lavatories was strictly prohibited and subject to US$5k fine per incident.
Keep on truckin'...
 
contractdog
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Re: UAL 2nd hand aircraft

Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:22 pm

hz747300 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Let's see if there are any small 'tells' which remain that will be found by obsessives - something like an ash tray in a forward lavatory.

Ash trays are in every lavatory regardless.


I thought smoking in the lavatories was strictly prohibited and subject to US$5k fine per incident.


Yes, but the idea is that if someone does smoke in the bathroom, they rather put it out in the ash tray, than toss the cigarette butt in the waste paper bin! Most airliner bathrooms still have ash trays for this reason.

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