I know they have moved a lot of lift from EWR to JFK

They must need more gate space

MAD is now operating from T7

Qatar also has a split operation: Morning T7; Afternoon T8

jfklganyc wrote:

I know they have moved a lot of lift from EWR to JFK

They must need more gate space

MAD is now operating from T7

Qatar also has a split operation: Morning T7; Afternoon T8

Qatar has been split for some time, and if it still is, I can't understand exactly why. T8 has more space and can accommodate the flow better than T7.

Cointrin330 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

I know they have moved a lot of lift from EWR to JFK

They must need more gate space

MAD is now operating from T7

Qatar also has a split operation: Morning T7; Afternoon T8

Qatar has been split for some time, and if it still is, I can't understand exactly why. T8 has more space and can accommodate the flow better than T7.

Maybe they like the BA lounge in T7 more than the AA lounge in T8 and/or maybe BA is charging them less rent in T7.

The terminal situation at JFK is awfully tight, the fact that Norwegian is using T1 is because they have no where else to go. When Delta moved into Terminal 4 and no replacement was built for terminal 3( Pan AM Worlport) one entire terminal's capacity went away with 15 to 20 gates. Since JFK has a huge afternoon peak time those missing extra gates are causing lots of "terminal tightness" all over the airport. Soon all the Terminal 7 airlines will move in AA Terminal 8, some like Cathay and Qantas are already at AA T8.

JFK needs to get building terminals for intercontinental range airplanes, Jetblue is a nice niche airline but its taking up lots of space which could handle more A350 or 777. Maybe a terminal could be built where the old TWA hangar was for terminal 1 expansion with a moving walkway over the aircraft taxiway.

jfk777 wrote:

The terminal situation at JFK is awfully tight, the fact that Norwegian is using T1 is because they have no where else to go. When Delta moved into Terminal 4 and no replacement was built for terminal 3( Pan AM Worlport) one entire terminal's capacity went away with 15 to 20 gates. Since JFK has a huge afternoon peak time those missing extra gates are causing lots of "terminal tightness" all over the airport. Soon all the Terminal 7 airlines will move in AA Terminal 8, some like Cathay and Qantas are already at AA T8.

JFK needs to get building terminals for intercontinental range airplanes, Jetblue is a nice niche airline but its taking up lots of space which could handle more A350 or 777. Maybe a terminal could be built where the old TWA hangar was for terminal 1 expansion with a moving walkway over the aircraft taxiway.

That “Niche” carrier is the second biggest at JFK, no small feat.

I agree they take up space, but they probably utilize their gates better than anybody else on the airport.

There are excess gates at T8 and T5

The problem, like so much else in NYC, is convoluted management and mismanagement.

The gates and terminals outside of T4 are not common use.

Each terminal operates like a fiefdom.

This is the issue with having 6 different terminals with 6 different management structures in place.

One terminal could be bursting at the seams, but the empty terminal next door might as well be Neptune

Terminal 4 is the overflow terminal. It is not the Delta terminal.

Any airline without gates or in need of customs goes there when their terminal is closed or unavailable.

That system got messed up when Delta took over most of the B concourse.

That leaves A1-7 and 2 or 3 gates in the B concourse for overflow.

Any gates at other terminals requires working out a deal with that respective terminal operator.

That is simply NOT A GOOD WAY to run JFK

jfk777 wrote:

When Delta moved into Terminal 4 and no replacement was built for terminal 3( Pan AM Worlport) one entire terminal's capacity went away with 15 to 20 gates.

DL did build out 9 new widebody gates and 11 new RJ/mainline swing gates at T4 in the process. So there was a hit to gate capacity, but not as much as you're stating.

jfklganyc wrote:

There are excess gates at T8 and T5

The problem, like so much else in NYC, is convoluted management and mismanagement.

The gates and terminals outside of T4 are not common use.

Each terminal operates like a fiefdom.

This is the issue with having 6 different terminals with 6 different management structures in place.

One terminal could be bursting at the seams, but the empty terminal next door might as well be Neptune

Terminal 4 is the overflow terminal. It is not the Delta terminal.

Any airline without gates or in need of customs goes there when their terminal is closed or unavailable.

That system got messed up when Delta took over most of the B concourse.

That leaves A1-7 and 2 or 3 gates in the B concourse for overflow.

Any gates at other terminals requires working out a deal with that respective terminal operator.

That is simply NOT A GOOD WAY to run JFK

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

bluefltspecial wrote:

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

Why would AA let Norwegian use their terminal?

Well a few more years, we get the new terminals built out, this won't be as much of an issue.

OB1504 wrote:

bluefltspecial wrote:

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

Why would AA let Norwegian use their terminal?

The same reason that Lufthansa, Air France, Korean let Norwegian use Terminal 1 in JFK, the same reason JetBlue lets Hawaiian, Aer Lingus, and TAP use Terminal 5 in JFK:

to make money.

If you're not using something and someone else can use it and pay you a premium for it, that's what most airlines do.

This is very common in the airline industry. For example, up until a few years ago the majority of American Airlines operation out of the L gates in ORD were all subcontracted to American Airlines, from Delta, who owned/leased them to American for a number of decades.

OB1504 wrote:

bluefltspecial wrote:

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

Why would AA let Norwegian use their terminal?

That is the thing...this shouldnt be AAs decision.

this is the problem with the JFK set up. You need one unified system.

It is ridiculous

bluefltspecial wrote:

OB1504 wrote:

bluefltspecial wrote:

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

Why would AA let Norwegian use their terminal?

The same reason that Lufthansa, Air France, Korean let Norwegian use Terminal 1 in JFK, the same reason JetBlue lets Hawaiian, Aer Lingus, and TAP use Terminal 5 in JFK:

to make money.

If you're not using something and someone else can use it and pay you a premium for it, that's what most airlines do.

This is very common in the airline industry. For example, up until a few years ago the majority of American Airlines operation out of the L gates in ORD were all subcontracted to American Airlines, from Delta, who owned/leased them to American for a number of decades.

JetBlue lets those airlines use their terminal or doesn't have a conflict with Aer Lingus, TAP or Hawaiian since they don't fly to Hawaii, Ireland or Portugal. AA letting Norwegian use their precious Terminal 8 is very funny since BA/AA are the major airlines in the JFK to London market and Norwegian is a competitor in that market.

Air France doesn't have a problem with them flying to DeGaulle out of Terminal 1.

Businesses provide business services to competitors all the time across all industries.

stlgph wrote:

Air France doesn't have a problem with them flying to DeGaulle out of Terminal 1.

Businesses provide business services to competitors all the time across all industries.

Nothing against Norwegian but if there is space in T8 for them I don't think AF, LH, JL or KE would mind too much to see them go. Terminal One was set up to provide a quality terminal to those four airlines' passengers. For a time Terminal One was the newest and best thing at JFK. But 20+ years ago there wasn't the A380, 9/11 hadn't happened, and the terminal wasn't overcrowded. Norwegian has most of it's flights later in the evening rush hour period due to being a newcomer in a slot-controlled airport.

Nonstop announcements at the gates suffocate any semblance of calm. There are just not enough gates and the alleyway to T2/Delta is too small to allow an efficient movement of aircraft. Terminal One, before it is demolished in the next 5-10 years, is quite literally busting at the seams. The bathrooms are awfully always full. There are not enough display monitors and too many gate change announcements as the tower is forced to play musical chairs while inbound planes sit out on the taxiway waiting ungodly amounts of time to discharge passengers.

If T8 has the room hopefully more Norwegian can move there. Quite sure the original 4 quality airlines who built Terminal One didn't invest all the effort and cost - whereby 2 decades later it has sadly devolved into the dysfunctional circus it is today. Kudos to the staff who keep it going day in and out.

The idea in US of airport terminals owned by certain airlines is crazy.
I see no other places where an airline owned and operate the terminal by themselves.

In the rest of the world, you may have a airline who dominate a particular terminal,
but the terminal is still owned by the party who run the airport and therefore can do a better coordination in assigning the gates.

jfklganyc wrote:

OB1504 wrote:

bluefltspecial wrote:

Pretty much on point.

What a lot of people are not aware of, and something that I still don't understand, is that T8 has excess capacity, however the CBP does not or will not agree to operate to a change in schedule for whatever reason. Hence, while Norwegian could move and expand their entire operation to T8 as the majority of international Gates are free after 9pm, the Port Authority does nothing to help accommodate this. Yet, even while being there largest operator in T1 and busiest non-US international carrier at JFK, Norwegian along with AF, LH, Korean and others can often be found waiting in excess of an hour for a gate on JFK taxiways.

Why would AA let Norwegian use their terminal?

That is the thing...this shouldnt be AAs decision.

this is the problem with the JFK set up. You need one unified system.

It is ridiculous

AA built the terminal it’s theirs to run as they see fit. So should I be able to use your house?

adambrau wrote:

stlgph wrote:

Air France doesn't have a problem with them flying to DeGaulle out of Terminal 1.

Businesses provide business services to competitors all the time across all industries.

Nothing against Norwegian but if there is space in T8 for them I don't think AF, LH, JL or KE would mind too much to see them go. Terminal One was set up to provide a quality terminal to those four airlines' passengers. For a time Terminal One was the newest and best thing at JFK. But 20+ years ago there wasn't the A380, 9/11 hadn't happened, and the terminal wasn't overcrowded. Norwegian has most of it's flights later in the evening rush hour period due to being a newcomer in a slot-controlled airport.

Nonstop announcements at the gates suffocate any semblance of calm. There are just not enough gates and the alleyway to T2/Delta is too small to allow an efficient movement of aircraft. Terminal One, before it is demolished in the next 5-10 years, is quite literally busting at the seams. The bathrooms are awfully always full. There are not enough display monitors and too many gate change announcements as the tower is forced to play musical chairs while inbound planes sit out on the taxiway waiting ungodly amounts of time to discharge passengers.

If T8 has the room hopefully more Norwegian can move there. Quite sure the original 4 quality airlines who built Terminal One didn't invest all the effort and cost - whereby 2 decades later it has sadly devolved into the dysfunctional circus it is today. Kudos to the staff who keep it going day in and out.

BA is moving into T8, AA doesn’t have to let any airline use it if they don’t want too. That’s what leases are for.

Terminal 1 is bursting at the seems because the PANYNJ for some reason let Delta move into T4 without replacing the capacity lost when the old DL T3 was torn down. The "Delta" addition barely replaced the T3 capacity. Terminal 4 was supposed to the default terminal for all the orphan foreign airlines, by letting Delta use up all that capacity it sent airlines scrambling for wherever they could get in. Terminal 1 was supposed to be an "oasis" within the JFK madness for the 4 airline owners, by letting DL into T4 the madness moved to T1. The Delta move also caused alliance members to be in different terminals, KLM & Air France plus LH & Swiss are separated.

The domestic Delta terminal needs to be torn down this year and whatever T1 expansion needs to get going. Another expansion for T1 needs to go the other way where the old TWA hangar used to be.

https://www.anewjfk.com/jetblueterminal6/
DY will be moving to new terminal once it gets gate space built. Word is some other interline partners will move to the new T6 aswell

Over the years, several airports have managed to go from hell to a relatively good place. LHR comes to mind, with 4 terminals patched to unbelievable levels, crazy taxiways, bottle necks, missed connections and mishandled baggage due to poor layout... But suddenly T5 opened and (two weeks later, we all remember the opening fiasco) all numbers started to improve. Grouping partner airlines helped reduce the use of scarce resources (check-in, lounges, Inter terminal transit systems..) The new terminals were perpendicular to the runways (toast rack) so no cul de sac, narrow alleys or whatever could hit on performance.

Given JFK has two sets of parallel runways, I don’t know why PANYNJ sees the advantages of this type of terminal layout (as seen at LAX TBIT and new satellite... new CDG terminals...) that could help with congestion and open up precious gate space.

jfk777 wrote:

The Delta move also caused alliance members to be in different terminals, KLM & Air France plus LH & Swiss are separated.
.

FYI, that is simply not correct. Delta moved to T4 on a large scale in 2013. Swiss moved to T1 to join LH in 2006 and decided to move back to T4 in December 2007 as T1 was already way too crowded. This was way before Delta even started using some T4 gates. Similarly with AF-KL, KL was always operating out of T4 (or the former IAB) due to its close links with NW and that has simply transitioned from NW to DL post-merger. The Delta move to T4 had nothing to do with KL-AF or LH-LX being separated.

Aisak wrote:

Over the years, several airports have managed to go from hell to a relatively good place. LHR comes to mind, with 4 terminals patched to unbelievable levels, crazy taxiways, bottle necks, missed connections and mishandled baggage due to poor layout... But suddenly T5 opened and (two weeks later, we all remember the opening fiasco) all numbers started to improve. Grouping partner airlines helped reduce the use of scarce resources (check-in, lounges, Inter terminal transit systems..) The new terminals were perpendicular to the runways (toast rack) so no cul de sac, narrow alleys or whatever could hit on performance.

Given JFK has two sets of parallel runways, I don’t know why PANYNJ sees the advantages of this type of terminal layout (as seen at LAX TBIT and new satellite... new CDG terminals...) that could help with congestion and open up precious gate space.

JFK's airline-centric layout dates from the 50s-60s when today's passenger volumes were beyond comprehension, and the airlines were driving airport development rather than the local governments. I agree that the paralell island concourse layout (pioneered by ATL and mimicked several times since then including at LHR T5) would be the best use of JFK's terminal space, it's simply not an option to close the airport for 3-5 years to level the whole thing and rebuild it. Even staged terminal rebuilds like LGA's undertaking would take some capacity offline that JFK simply can't do without. Also, none of the airlines currently operating there really has much incentive to go out of their way to make room for more competitors to operate there by increasing the overall airport capacity. They'd rather just protect the operational capacity they control. No, it's not efficient, but it's a product of capitalism that is terrified of centralized control that might shift valuable resources away from the ones who have the most control.

panamair wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

The Delta move also caused alliance members to be in different terminals, KLM & Air France plus LH & Swiss are separated.
.

FYI, that is simply not correct. Delta moved to T4 on a large scale in 2013. Swiss moved to T1 to join LH in 2006 and decided to move back to T4 in December 2007 as T1 was already way too crowded. This was way before Delta even started using some T4 gates. Similarly with AF-KL, KL was always operating out of T4 (or the former IAB) due to its close links with NW and that has simply transitioned from NW to DL post-merger. The Delta move to T4 had nothing to do with KL-AF or LH-LX being separated.

Whenever Swiss did something and Delta moved is not the point, the point is Delta, KLM and AF are NOT in the same terminal. Swiss and LH are NOT in the same terminal. KLM is NOT in T4 because of NW, it is there because Schipol Airport from the Netherlands has an ownership in T4 and designed it. Long Long ago T2 used to be the Delta and NW terminal. At most important international airports alliance partners are together.

jfk777 wrote:

panamair wrote:

jfk777 wrote:

The Delta move also caused alliance members to be in different terminals, KLM & Air France plus LH & Swiss are separated.
.

FYI, that is simply not correct. Delta moved to T4 on a large scale in 2013. Swiss moved to T1 to join LH in 2006 and decided to move back to T4 in December 2007 as T1 was already way too crowded. This was way before Delta even started using some T4 gates. Similarly with AF-KL, KL was always operating out of T4 (or the former IAB) due to its close links with NW and that has simply transitioned from NW to DL post-merger. The Delta move to T4 had nothing to do with KL-AF or LH-LX being separated.

Whenever Swiss did something and Delta moved is not the point, the point is Delta, KLM and AF are NOT in the same terminal. Swiss and LH are NOT in the same terminal. KLM is NOT in T4 because of NW, it is there because Schipol Airport from the Netherlands has an ownership in T4 and designed it. Long Long ago T2 used to be the Delta and NW terminal. At most important international airports alliance partners are together.

It's really not a big deal.. There's no reason for them to be together (the European airlines). LX has it's own lounge in T4 and is not going anywhere, as does LH in T1 (which it partially owns). Nobody is connecting from LH to LX at JFK, or AF to KL.. As for DL and AF/KL, well, clearly the emphasis is put on other airports for U.S. connections.

Hopefully QR will combine their operations in Terminal 8.