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afcjets
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:00 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
jagraham wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
Not to start anything, But what data do you have to support the 90% assertion and 80% assertion? Also, how are you defining metros? I count 7 of 10 by MSA/CSA definitions and less by pure city populations. Gaps on the csa front are SFO, HOU, BOS.
It is CSA. SFO and BOS are focus cities. IAH is the missing CSA.
How are you defining focus city? Sfo only sees hub flying these days and BOS might be considered with the couple of eagle routes and Saturday non hub flying, but compared to the “focus city” definition used at DL, UA it’s a stretch... putting that aside though I am curious what data you used to get to the 80 & 90% of trip numbers, I can’t quite rationalize that 90% of trips in the US originate or end at one of the top 10 MSA/CSA, the population is too spread out.


SJC was a hub then focus city for AA. I can't find any current non-hub flying from the Bay are on AA. I was surprised AA no longer even flies SJC-SNA or SJC-AUS.

According to Wikipedia, SFO is not in the top ten MSA estimates for last year but ATL and HOU are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ical_areas

It's possible he's conflating O&D trips with segment trips and/or estimating 90 percent, where the latter is mostly irrelevant for a network carrier from a revenue perspective. If he is estimating O&D trips, I think he is way off. LAS and MCO are two of the largest destination markets in the US and are not in the top ten MSAs. It's hard to imagine less than 10 percent of air travel doesn't include these and other large to medium sized MSAs to or from other MSAs outside his top ten list.
Last edited by afcjets on Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Airbuser
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:06 pm

The number of employees to aircraft ratio is much higher at AA. Much higher mechanic numbers and management numbers than the other legacies. Through the bankruptcy the mechanics were not hit as hard as they were at the other airlines. AA outsources heavy maintenance far less than other airlines in the US. Do the ULCC have any major maintenance performed in the US? I think Arpey protected some of that and the result is what we have today. A knock down drag out fight with management and maintenance. Of course they are fighting to protect those jobs.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:21 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I find it hilarious how everyone blames Doug for AA's problems, most of you forget AA wouldn't be around today if HP/US management weren't running the show. There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


What is 'without being negative in revenue?'

AA would have survived without Parker - it had the route network, and he's brought no productivity nor revenue management magic. He's cheapened the airline a dozen ways but it's fair to say that's been the general direction of U.S. passenger air service - look at 5-7 year growth rates in RPMs of WN/NK/F9/G4 vs. AA/UA/DL. If there's a fault he didn't lower costs to match the lower PRASM. More seats, no narrowbody AVOD, poor operational performance and front-line employees with attitude are not the keys to improved PRASM. Lousy labor relations have continued in his tenure, regrettably. AA employees believed the pre-merger happy talk and thought they were getting another CEO they could control but he's been pretty tight-fisted in compensation and work rules. US ending 2013 was about 1/3 the size of AA/DL/UA today; it might have a #5 position after DL, UA, AA, WN in revenue, or about 2x AS or B6. That's big enough to be viable but perhaps not big enough to have a true national network.

Of course it's about money. In the U.S, it's always about money, directly or indirectly. Management runs the company for the benefit of the owners. Shareholders, not stakeholders. If that confuses you please enroll in Capitalism 101. Some management teams lead more deftly than others: Herb Kelleher was legendary for it; Richard Anderson did a pretty good job. Look at Lorenzo, Smisek and Checchi at the other end of the spectrum.

In a lot of ways Parker is stuck in a box of his own making: AA has a lot of debt; low PRASM but full legacy costs; and a reputation for poor ops performance borne out in DOT data on on-time, cancellations, and baggage mishandling month after month. A court injection against the mechanics isn't the same as a new contract and happy/productive mechanics. The result is a carrier with net income and market capitalization 1/2 of UA and 1/3 of DL. Gordon Bethune demonstrated the leadership vision and behaviors to fix CO in the late 90s. Financial engineering is not going to fix AA today.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:22 pm

Airbuser wrote:
The number of employees to aircraft ratio is much higher at AA. Much higher mechanic numbers and management numbers than the other legacies. Through the bankruptcy the mechanics were not hit as hard as they were at the other airlines. AA outsources heavy maintenance far less than other airlines in the US. Do the ULCC have any major maintenance performed in the US? I think Arpey protected some of that and the result is what we have today. A knock down drag out fight with management and maintenance. Of course they are fighting to protect those jobs.


But none of that explains why AA still lags so far behind in terms of revenue. That's the biggest problem IMO. Dougie has made AA so horrible that no one in their right mind would fly a premium to fly AA. Sure their planes are full, but everyones are. Yet clearly AA is filling their seats at rock bottom prices compared to their peers. Probably because their onboard product is a disaster.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:29 pm

This whole, you got to lose money in NYC to be profitable everywhere else is bunk, That's some serious old school thinking where RAS and ASM without regards to the overall profit picture that the industry has moved away from. And if that hands Delta more revenue in NYC so what! AA losing money to keep Delta from making more is not a winning strategy.
 
AAplat4life
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:45 pm

So Delta can make money in NYC, but not AA? The strategy of cutting the premium heavy hubs to bolster other hubs has put AA at a disadvantage both in terms of profits and network. Yes, it may be cheaper to operate from PHL and capture more connecting traffic than from JFK, but JFK is a premium rich market much more so than PHL. Of course, with AA’s ULCC mentality business model, it cannot really compete on international flights out of JFK and to a lesser extent ORD. And when AA decides to come back into focus, it will have to find secondary routes with less competition. The reality is that AA management has made so many claims and promises that have not been realized. It’s hard to believe any rationale they are spewing.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:51 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Airbuser wrote:
The number of employees to aircraft ratio is much higher at AA. Much higher mechanic numbers and management numbers than the other legacies. Through the bankruptcy the mechanics were not hit as hard as they were at the other airlines. AA outsources heavy maintenance far less than other airlines in the US. Do the ULCC have any major maintenance performed in the US? I think Arpey protected some of that and the result is what we have today. A knock down drag out fight with management and maintenance. Of course they are fighting to protect those jobs.


But none of that explains why AA still lags so far behind in terms of revenue. That's the biggest problem IMO. Dougie has made AA so horrible that no one in their right mind would fly a premium to fly AA. Sure their planes are full, but everyones are. Yet clearly AA is filling their seats at rock bottom prices compared to their peers. Probably because their onboard product is a disaster.

A huge part of Delta’s revenue premium is seats per plane and somehow Delta gets away with it:
Take the 777: most seats of any international 772 among us3. Before and after their J/W retrofit even with 3-3-3 seating
A321ceo: most seats of any us3
A321NEO: public info that it will have one more seat than an aa a321neo
A319: most seats of any us3
752: domestic delta birds are at 199 & 193 seats. AA’a closest variant is at 188. United isn’t anywhere close to even 188
753: 2 higher than United
Back when aa had MD80: 140 seats. Delta md88 are at 149. MD90: 158
delta 763: highest again of the us3, by far, on average. Delta has about zero consistency with their 4 layouts.
764: the most again. Higher than United (even though Delta has more J). The new delta config with W is less than United.
A320: 157 seats. Aa at 150. United at 150
738: tied with pre oasis aa, aa is higher post oasis. United seems higher though they have a lot of versions of the 738
739: higher than United by 1
A332: aa is higher
A333: Delta 293. Aa 291, even with fewer J seats on the aa a333

Density matters for revenue, a lot. Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:34 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I find it hilarious how everyone blames Doug for AA's problems, most of you forget AA wouldn't be around today if HP/US management weren't running the show. There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


That is indeed partly true and a great point. American's fundamental problem stretches back to the post-9/11 period. AMR refused to file for Chapter 11 the way UA, DL, and NW did. Those airlines, and specifically DL and NW, used Chapter 11 to rewrite everything. American resisted until 2011 and then leveraged the process to buy billions of dollars in new planes (which it needed). The merger with US was out of necessity to keep up with the industry's consolidation. Was US the best partner? Yes and no, but in the end it was the only choice. AA has made some strides in a few ways since the merger. It has deployed Premium Economy across the long haul fleet quickly and the product is pretty decent. It refurbished the 772 fleet smartly by removing First Class and optimized the cabin layout. AA historically shies away from competition but fights for big turf it controls (DFW, CLT). The PHL hub has limited competition at PHL and the market is large, but it is a huge mistake to grow it at the expense of JFK. New York will always be the richest, biggest market in the country. AA has to play in that market more forcefully than catering to its FF base. Instead, it flew a subpar product for years out of JFK on ratty old 763s and only recently has begun to refocus that. The MAX issues don't help but their grounding as a factor in AA's operational issues are overstated, too. The Oasis project is probably necessary because AA's fleet of 737s is so big, but the perception is that AA has turned into the UA of its post-merger days. It's time to right the ship before the economy turns. The current attempts remain half hearted.
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:35 pm

Can anyone explain to me what L-AA's pre-merger strategy was? I am asking in the specific time frame of when they just placed the huge order with Boeing, and just announced that they would add seatback video to every seat in every class, etc.
RJ85, F70, E135, E140, E145, E70, E75, E90, CR2, CR7, CR9, 717, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 744ER, 752, 753, 762, 772, 77E, 77W, 789, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343, 359, 388
 
AEROFAN
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:42 pm

Having just recently flown Delta, Qatar and AA in business internationally, I can clearly understand why there is a gap between Delta and AA.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
OB1504
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:45 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
I find it hilarious how everyone blames Doug for AA's problems, most of you forget AA wouldn't be around today if HP/US management weren't running the show. There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


Then how is Delta able to pull off providing quality service and commanding a premium for it? Doug’s current philosophy seems to be to be to see how cheap he can make the pizza before nobody wants to eat it. Don’t blame the public for not wanting to overpay for a bad product.

On the bright side, AA will never lose money again. Doug Parker said it.

USAirALB wrote:
Can anyone explain to me what L-AA's pre-merger strategy was? I am asking in the specific time frame of when they just placed the huge order with Boeing, and just announced that they would add seatback video to every seat in every class, etc.


They were going to hunker down and focus on their cornerstone hubs while investing in the hard product. They would’ve survived but would’ve been a distant third to Delta and United in terms of size and network. It was US Airways that desperately wanted to merge with somebody; Delta successfully fended off their advances.

Then the merger happened and we ended up with things like the literal half retrofits on the 767s.
 
dtremit
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:49 pm

jagraham wrote:
It is CSA. SFO and BOS are focus cities. IAH is the missing CSA.


If AA thinks they are focused in BOS, they are delusional.
 
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American 767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Can anyone explain to me what L-AA's pre-merger strategy was? I am asking in the specific time frame of when they just placed the huge order with Boeing, and just announced that they would add seatback video to every seat in every class, etc.


I assume that by pre-merger you mean pre-merger with US Airways in the mid 2010s, because there was also the merger with TWA in the early 2000s.
I think that the idea was, after dehubbing STL in the late 2000s, to keep DFW and ORD as the two most important domestic hubs connecting passengers from a myriad of markets in the East Coast to markets on the West Coast and vice-versa, with LAX as a main focus city. The STL hub was built in the early 2000s after the merger with TWA with the idea to alleviate the heavy traffic flow in DFW and ORD, but it turned out not to be very successful with many flights cut thus Southwest taking advantage of that by building a hub in STL or at least a focus city. In STL Southwest ate American alive. BOS and JFK/LGA also were meant to be focus cities for AA.
That's for the domestic scene.
On the international scene, the idea was to keep MIA the main hub to Central and South America, and JFK and ORD the main hubs to Europe. At that time PHL was not a hub yet so when it came to adding flights to Europe JFK was the first market coming to mind. Look at what JFK is now for AA compared to what it was ten years ago.
And on top of all the above, nonstop flights on AA metal to NRT from DFW and ORD, to connect with JAL a then new member of the One World alliance. Building LAX as a gateway to Asia was on the "To do's" list.
Ben Soriano
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:40 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
So Delta can make money in NYC, but not AA? The strategy of cutting the premium heavy hubs to bolster other hubs has put AA at a disadvantage both in terms of profits and network. Yes, it may be cheaper to operate from PHL and capture more connecting traffic than from JFK, but JFK is a premium rich market much more so than PHL. Of course, with AA’s ULCC mentality business model, it cannot really compete on international flights out of JFK and to a lesser extent ORD. And when AA decides to come back into focus, it will have to find secondary routes with less competition. The reality is that AA management has made so many claims and promises that have not been realized. It’s hard to believe any rationale they are spewing.

DL lost tons of money in NYC up until two years ago.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:41 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
I find it hilarious how everyone blames Doug for AA's problems, most of you forget AA wouldn't be around today if HP/US management weren't running the show. There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


That is indeed partly true and a great point. American's fundamental problem stretches back to the post-9/11 period. AMR refused to file for Chapter 11 the way UA, DL, and NW did. Those airlines, and specifically DL and NW, used Chapter 11 to rewrite everything. American resisted until 2011 and then leveraged the process to buy billions of dollars in new planes (which it needed). The merger with US was out of necessity to keep up with the industry's consolidation. Was US the best partner? Yes and no, but in the end it was the only choice. AA has made some strides in a few ways since the merger. It has deployed Premium Economy across the long haul fleet quickly and the product is pretty decent. It refurbished the 772 fleet smartly by removing First Class and optimized the cabin layout. AA historically shies away from competition but fights for big turf it controls (DFW, CLT). The PHL hub has limited competition at PHL and the market is large, but it is a huge mistake to grow it at the expense of JFK. New York will always be the richest, biggest market in the country. AA has to play in that market more forcefully than catering to its FF base. Instead, it flew a subpar product for years out of JFK on ratty old 763s and only recently has begun to refocus that. The MAX issues don't help but their grounding as a factor in AA's operational issues are overstated, too. The Oasis project is probably necessary because AA's fleet of 737s is so big, but the perception is that AA has turned into the UA of its post-merger days. It's time to right the ship before the economy turns. The current attempts remain half hearted.

AA got concessions from all employees in 2003 without the use of bankruptcy
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:44 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Airbuser wrote:
The number of employees to aircraft ratio is much higher at AA. Much higher mechanic numbers and management numbers than the other legacies. Through the bankruptcy the mechanics were not hit as hard as they were at the other airlines. AA outsources heavy maintenance far less than other airlines in the US. Do the ULCC have any major maintenance performed in the US? I think Arpey protected some of that and the result is what we have today. A knock down drag out fight with management and maintenance. Of course they are fighting to protect those jobs.


But none of that explains why AA still lags so far behind in terms of revenue. That's the biggest problem IMO. Dougie has made AA so horrible that no one in their right mind would fly a premium to fly AA. Sure their planes are full, but everyones are. Yet clearly AA is filling their seats at rock bottom prices compared to their peers. Probably because their onboard product is a disaster.

A huge part of Delta’s revenue premium is seats per plane and somehow Delta gets away with it:
Take the 777: most seats of any international 772 among us3. Before and after their J/W retrofit even with 3-3-3 seating
A321ceo: most seats of any us3
A321NEO: public info that it will have one more seat than an aa a321neo
A319: most seats of any us3
752: domestic delta birds are at 199 & 193 seats. AA’a closest variant is at 188. United isn’t anywhere close to even 188
753: 2 higher than United
Back when aa had MD80: 140 seats. Delta md88 are at 149. MD90: 158
delta 763: highest again of the us3, by far, on average. Delta has about zero consistency with their 4 layouts.
764: the most again. Higher than United (even though Delta has more J). The new delta config with W is less than United.
A320: 157 seats. Aa at 150. United at 150
738: tied with pre oasis aa, aa is higher post oasis. United seems higher though they have a lot of versions of the 738
739: higher than United by 1
A332: aa is higher
A333: Delta 293. Aa 291, even with fewer J seats on the aa a333

Density matters for revenue, a lot. Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”


Very correct and DL has managed an effective PR campaign to take away from the fact that they've shoved more seats into a/c. To "soften the blow" DL has included or expanded AVOD along with several other smaller changes like modestly better snacks in Y. You can also look at it as bait and switch.
 
AA747123
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:50 pm

ethernal wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I agree that Delta's economy class seats are much more comfortable than AA's. My back was starting to hurt after 30 minutes when I flew on an AA 737 MAX from MCO to MIA, but I've done ATL-SEA on refurbished Delta 757s with 30" pitch several times without any comfort issues.


The vast majority of the seats on Delta's 757s (and A321s and 737s for that matter) are 31". Unfortunately Delta is willing to compromise a few rows in order to squeeze in seats at the exit row intervals (the 739 has, I believe, 3 rows at 30" pitch), but more than likely you sat in a 31" pitch seat. I wish Delta would clearly tag on their site which rows are 30" pitch but unfortunately they don't do that so you are sometimes confused as to why things are tighter than usual.

Still, most of Delta's seats are 31". Not enough to work effectively but enough not to be uncomfortable. 30" is where comfort issues become apparent (at least for me, who is admittedly 6' 4").



Whoa, lets slow down there a bit. No one can say for sure "American would not have survived". A few facts here. AA went into CH11 with over 3 billion in the bank (and actually less debt than they have now). It was a self finances bankruptcy with no DIP financing. AA went this route as they had been going on for years on pilot negotiations that were not going anywhere fast. Once in bankruptcy Doug was quick to the tables to sell his reorganization plan to the unions and the other creditors (since unions are considered creditors). He sold them!

AA's plan would to have been to emerge as a stand alone carrier, then they would be in control of the merger. Now since the merger has AA been completely destroyed in products/services, obviously no. Somethings are worse, some are better.

AA need to stop focusing on the Spirit airlines crowd and more go after the high yielding business traveler and provide a service the people will actually pay a premium for.
 
Lpbri
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:35 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Must be the weekly AA bashing thread. At least this time there's an article with comments. I guess it's good they know there's a problem.

My outsider top-4 list (not including a temporary placebo effect of leadership change, a la UA):

1) Improve the operations - this is the clear number one. Without it any other change is lipstick. Subpar operations are hurting both revenue and cost.

2) Find a way to drive more productivity from the workforce (that isn't by the placebo effect) - this one is a tough sell, but somehow AA needs to work on lowering its headcount and/or drive more productivity. Of course with unions this is a very difficult to basically impossible task. But without AA will always play catch-up.

3) Once the MAX is back, work quickly to resume Oasis refurbishments. The fleet consistency/improvement and lower unit cost is a benefit on both ends.

4) Diversify the spoke network like UA is doing - identify underserved markets, no matter how large/small, regional or international, to capture high revenue streams. I specifically think ORD is lacking in this department.



I don't think anybody on this board knows how to measure employee productivity
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:41 pm

Lpbri wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Must be the weekly AA bashing thread. At least this time there's an article with comments. I guess it's good they know there's a problem.

My outsider top-4 list (not including a temporary placebo effect of leadership change, a la UA):

1) Improve the operations - this is the clear number one. Without it any other change is lipstick. Subpar operations are hurting both revenue and cost.

2) Find a way to drive more productivity from the workforce (that isn't by the placebo effect) - this one is a tough sell, but somehow AA needs to work on lowering its headcount and/or drive more productivity. Of course with unions this is a very difficult to basically impossible task. But without AA will always play catch-up.

3) Once the MAX is back, work quickly to resume Oasis refurbishments. The fleet consistency/improvement and lower unit cost is a benefit on both ends.

4) Diversify the spoke network like UA is doing - identify underserved markets, no matter how large/small, regional or international, to capture high revenue streams. I specifically think ORD is lacking in this department.



I don't think anybody on this board knows how to measure employee productivity

The MIT Airline Data Project is a good source. Also people forgot the outsourcing isn’t free, Delta and others pay billions to vendors.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Before the merger, the US fans on this website were really in favor of a US+AA merger, because they felt it was US's best chance at survival.

The AA fans here were horrified by a US+AA merger, because they felt a merged airline would try to charge Delta fares for an inflight product like Spirit's.

Both the US and AA fans were correct about the merger.....and loyal AA customers have suffered because of it.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:55 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


Except that AA charges 5 star prices but provides 2 star service; based on my recent two international segments in J.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:56 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Before the merger, the US fans on this website were really in favor of a US+AA merger, because they felt it was US's best chance at survival.

The AA fans here were horrified by a US+AA merger, because they felt a merged airline would try to charge Delta fares for an inflight product like Spirit's.

Both the US and AA fans were correct about the merger.....and loyal AA customers have suffered because of it.

Wall Street and the Creditors preferred the merger vs the AA stand alone. US was making money before ther merger, AA wasn’t.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:13 pm

Ugh, this entire conversation is annoying me. Folks acting like PMAA was SQ or something.
The two carriers were basically the same. US had a slightly more spartan inflight product due to it's lower revenue network but it made money. PMAA had an ancient fleet and a high cost/low productivity workforce that was getting blitzed everywhere but DFW and MIA and even MIA was strarting to fray due to LCC growth up at FLL.

Let us take off the rose coloured glasses.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:29 pm

As much as people want to bad mouth Doug for being a drunk or a bad leader, he turned little America West into the world's largest airline.
 
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:35 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”

Or provide the passenger with a product so that it doesn't feel like they're being packed, which DL seems to do quite well.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
AWACSooner
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:40 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
As much as people want to bad mouth Doug for being a drunk or a bad leader, he turned little America West into the world's largest airline.

He knew how to work mergers...oh swell. But he was NOT loved at HP either...not by a long shot.
 
1ffb2002
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:41 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Ugh, this entire conversation is annoying me. Folks acting like PMAA was SQ or something.
The two carriers were basically the same. US had a slightly more spartan inflight product due to it's lower revenue network but it made money. PMAA had an ancient fleet and a high cost/low productivity workforce that was getting blitzed everywhere but DFW and MIA and even MIA was strarting to fray due to LCC growth up at FLL.

Let us take off the rose coloured glasses.



I totally disagree with you. AA pre US Airways takeover was a decent airline with decent food and service in First Class. Since the takeover, First Class domestic is not worth the upgrade points. The food is inedible, the quality of the service product has degraded markedly. I miss the old American Airlines. The breakfast and dinners were decent. Now, I refuse the food because I would not even feed it to my dogs. U S Air was no American before the merger. American was a great airline. On International, the post merger AA service is horrible. The soft product has been degraded in business, and the food is horrid. There is nothing special about American. There was a day when Flagship service meant something. I will say, the L AA employees still treat me with grace and professionalism. I totally respect flying with the employees. They do a great job even though what they are serving is horrid. We often commiserate about how the real American Airlines was lost to US Air. I want my American Airlines BACK!
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:47 pm

The issue I see is that Parker has been willing to spend on the high fare pax in the form of better lounges and food offerings (although no plans for showers at CLT let alone PHX) and continued upgrades in the International product. However, he assumes that the typical Y pax isn't worth worrying about, and to a lesser extent the domestic F pax often sitting up front either on a free upgrade or a deeply discounted F fare.

The problem is that all flyers fly on one a/c. They all depart and arrive at the same time. Yes the CK pax might have someone on the ground looking out for them while those sitting in Group 9 can go pound sand. But in the end they all have to deal with the hassles resulting from late arrivals, misconnections, sitting around wondering if the a/c is going or not and surly staff that don't seem to know what's going on and don't seem to care.

DL has succumb to the ULCC faze just as much as AA. DL has shoved more seats in their a/c and created a BE fare. The difference is that DL is not striving to be a Spirit operationally, but AA appears to be doing so.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:55 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”

Or provide the passenger with a product so that it doesn't feel like they're being packed, which DL seems to do quite well.

I agree
 
dtremit
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:03 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Ugh, this entire conversation is annoying me. Folks acting like PMAA was SQ or something.
The two carriers were basically the same. US had a slightly more spartan inflight product due to it's lower revenue network but it made money. PMAA had an ancient fleet and a high cost/low productivity workforce that was getting blitzed everywhere but DFW and MIA and even MIA was strarting to fray due to LCC growth up at FLL.

Let us take off the rose coloured glasses.


+1 on this. Neither US nor AA was stellar before the merger, but they both had groups of customers they served well. The merged carrier is, IMHO, worse than either.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:24 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
As much as people want to bad mouth Doug for being a drunk or a bad leader, he turned little America West into the world's largest airline.

He knew how to work mergers...oh swell. But he was NOT loved at HP either...not by a long shot.



You must not have worked for Bill Franke. Doug was very well liked by the rank and file by comparison. He was approachable, nice and open a complete flip from the previous team.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:06 am

I find it rather ironic that there are so many of us with opinions on how and why AA lags so badly, and what it should do to catch up, yet there is an extremely well compensated management team with actual data and tons of real resources at their fingertips that can't figure it out.
 
dfw88
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:28 am

SteelChair wrote:
I find it rather ironic that there are so many of us with opinions on how and why AA lags so badly, and what it should do to catch up, yet there is an extremely well compensated management team with actual data and tons of real resources at their fingertips that can't figure it out.


That's not ironic at all. What posters have here, as you mentioned, are opinions. Some of them good, some bad. What AA's management team is trying to sort out are facts. I needn't point out that facts and opinions are entirely different concepts, with facts being noticeably harder to pin down and action on. It's not the lack of information that's the problem, but the lack of understanding of that information and lack of a coherent strategy to action on that information.
 
Justapax
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:47 am

AA747123 wrote:
ethernal wrote:
OB1504 wrote:

AA need to stop focusing on the Spirit airlines crowd and more go after the high yielding business traveler and provide a service the people will actually pay a premium for.


Per Gary Leff at View From The Wing:

"JetBlue is running a sale $30.30 one way tickets for travel tomorrow, October 31 only.

And Dan’s Deals reports that American Airlines is matching the sale.

This is available on myriad routes like: Boston – Chicago, Chicago – New York, Chicago – Miami, New York – Miami, Miami – Los Angeles, Miami – Phoenix, Miami – DC, New York – Atlanta (and Boston, Phoenix, San Francisco, LA). Just try routes for travel on October 31 and see what you come up with."

You can't get a revenue premium if you are charging $30 one way for Miami - LA, New York - Miami, Boston - LA. Even if they are doing it to match B6 and even if it's just for 1 day and even if the tickets are in Basic Economy.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:12 am

Justapax wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
ethernal wrote:
AA need to stop focusing on the Spirit airlines crowd and more go after the high yielding business traveler and provide a service the people will actually pay a premium for.


Per Gary Leff at View From The Wing:

"JetBlue is running a sale $30.30 one way tickets for travel tomorrow, October 31 only.

And Dan’s Deals reports that American Airlines is matching the sale.

This is available on myriad routes like: Boston – Chicago, Chicago – New York, Chicago – Miami, New York – Miami, Miami – Los Angeles, Miami – Phoenix, Miami – DC, New York – Atlanta (and Boston, Phoenix, San Francisco, LA). Just try routes for travel on October 31 and see what you come up with."

You can't get a revenue premium if you are charging $30 one way for Miami - LA, New York - Miami, Boston - LA. Even if they are doing it to match B6 and even if it's just for 1 day and even if the tickets are in Basic Economy.


Indeed. This is the highway to hell.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:26 am

SteelChair wrote:
Justapax wrote:
AA747123 wrote:


Per Gary Leff at View From The Wing:

"JetBlue is running a sale $30.30 one way tickets for travel tomorrow, October 31 only.

And Dan’s Deals reports that American Airlines is matching the sale.

This is available on myriad routes like: Boston – Chicago, Chicago – New York, Chicago – Miami, New York – Miami, Miami – Los Angeles, Miami – Phoenix, Miami – DC, New York – Atlanta (and Boston, Phoenix, San Francisco, LA). Just try routes for travel on October 31 and see what you come up with."

You can't get a revenue premium if you are charging $30 one way for Miami - LA, New York - Miami, Boston - LA. Even if they are doing it to match B6 and even if it's just for 1 day and even if the tickets are in Basic Economy.


Indeed. This is the highway to hell.


Oh Puhleeze. Getting some good PR and filling seats that would otherwise go out empty during a pretty dead time of year is not a problem. If they did that every day, ok that is a valid criticism but criticizing a one day promo is overwrought...
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:40 am

tphuang wrote:
I don't see how they can give up on new York market and expect this to happen.



Doug needs Help and fresh blood and Idea's. He did the impossible and really has just stayed to long, should of gone out on top. I don't think he is the visionary that is needed to get AA the right brand and direction.
 
Sydscott
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:46 am

AEROFAN wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


Except that AA charges 5 star prices but provides 2 star service; based on my recent two international segments in J.


After lots of experience flying Qantas, Cathay, Emirates and Etihad I flew AA long haul last year a couple of times. From everything I have read on here and from "professional" commentators I had fairly low expectations, (afterall nothing can really beat Emirates and Etihads First Class), but AA was a pleasant surprise. Yes I found the business seat was too narrow on their 777 but that was really the only issue with the flights I had. The pillows and blankets were actually pretty good, the crews on both flights were pleasant and professional and the flights were all broadly on time with no significant delays and no issues making connections. The lounge at JFK was also pretty good. I didn't find them as bad as what everyone seems to say that they are. Maybe the Australian accent helped?
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:52 am

HPAEAA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see how they can give up on new York market and expect this to happen.

That would be a big step to get serious about one of the largest markets in the country, second might be to focus on getting people from A to B, not only deal with the operational challenges, but might be time to rethink some p2p flying, if there’s significant demand, why not skip the hub? Not everyone wants to fly through CLT or DFW.



Ive been saying this for awhile. If you want to be the airline on the west coast of the US you have to have a better plan then AA has. Lack of a PNW focus city or hub. Lack of North South flying up and down the west coast.

DL and AA were both pretty much the same in the western half of the US post Mergers. DL has SLC/LAX AA PHX/LAX. DL has grown has big has AA at LAX while while starting a SEA hub. They have grown P2P in the southern California market besides there hubs. They have grown in SAN,SFO,PHX,LAS and not only have they matched AA at LAX they also have grown Long Beach while AA shrunk anything beside LAX/PHX. AA has lost much in the AS relationship and still hasn't answered or addressed the hole.
DP should try and merge with AS or get out. Merging airlines seems to be his thing for growth not organic growth. DL has shown the template.
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:01 am

OB1504 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Is Dougie seriously this out of touch? He needs to put down the bottle and realize that HIS decisions to destroy AA's product and destroy AAdvantage are the reasons AA is now so far behind it's peers. It's really not that complicated. What a complete joker.


To be fair, Delta led the charge on devaluing their frequent flier program. That being said, Delta made up for it by becoming an airline people like flying on.



Agree, AA miles are much better then DL miles. AA still has that going for them. There website is still in 2019 not able to book me on partner airlines or use miles on them on international itinerary.
 
SeoulIncheon
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:22 am

gokmengs wrote:
crownvic wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Some steps AA should take to fix itself

1. Improve operational reliability and customer experience/service (I.e, ditch Project Oasis)

2. Build back up JFK/LGA and stop this nonsense of shifting everything to PHL.

3. Optimize/rebuild the layouts of DFW and CLT, their most profitable hubs for better connections. Not necessarily saying rebuild the entire terminal space at each place, but there are things they can do at both that could make things more efficient.

4. Upgauge to more mainline flights in their core hubs of DFW, CLT and ORD.

5. Improve the soft product in all classes



On your #2 comment, maybe NYC is not the "top dog" everyone thinks it still is. Have you been there at all recently? Horrible traffic and it has lost it's charm from the past. My wife and I have visited this place for the last time and I have been traveling to NY for nearly 60 years. Everything is horribly expensive and maybe airlines just do not make a profit from there. Remember General Motors? Remember Sears? While I am not saying NYC is done, perhaps it is not as important as it once was, especially with more point to point international flying to other cities. Many of you are too young to know, some of America's most important cities once were Cleveland and Pittsburgh. They are a shadow of importance in America compared to what they once were. Not everything lasts forever and perhaps NYC's best days are behind it. Look at their sports teams :stirthepot:

Hate to say it but your bad experience with your wife and the horrible traffic, especially it being very expensive ( since its filled with people who can afford it) doesn’t change the fact that its one of the largest markets in the world. Airlines’ that manage it well are making money, and they will continue to do so.

It's not like a majority of people who fly to NYC because they want to...it's top business destination in the world and it's the business travelers (with many last minute bookings) that pay top $$$ to an airline.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:42 am

I realize there are many factors at play as to why AA is losing the battle vs DL. That said, as someone who has purchased full fare tickets (meaning not ZED) on both AA and DL to travel from Europe to the U.S., I have an idea why AA is losing the battle. I understand that my experiences are limited to just a handful of flights HOWEVER, my experiences on AA were absolutely awful. It had nothing to do with the soft product. Yes, the airplanes weren't as well appointed as the DL airplanes, but it wasn't that part of the experience that I remember most. What I remember most is the disdain with which the AA CSA's and FA's treated their passengers. On every single flight they were rude, condescending and dismissive to the passengers. I'd never actually heard a FA yell at a passenger before flying on AA. They clearly thought the passengers were an inconvenience and they treated them as such. They barked orders at them, made up and imposed ridiculous rules to keep passengers from bothering the crew, rushed through the services and disappeared. It was appalling. All flights were connections at PHL. On the contrary, I have been on several DL transatlantic flights as well - all paid tickets. The crews were kind and friendly. They were helpful and appeared to enjoy their jobs. I'm not a DL fanboy by any stretch of the imagination - nor do I hate AA for any particular reason. I'm sure AA has some amazing employees - and I'm sure DL has some rude employees that hate customers. As a consumer, however, I have decided that I won't purchase another ticket on AA if I can avoid it. I'm not willing to take my chances that the several experiences I've had were just "one-off's". AA could well be losing the race because people don't want to buy tickets on them if there are choices because they want to be treated with a modicum of humanity... Just some food for thought.
 
Mboyle1988
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:30 am

Delta doesn’t get a fare premium because of the stupidity of the American public. The Great and Powerful Oz can only keep them distracted so long before they find the man behind the curtain. Passengers put up with Delta’s tight legroom, basic economy, and worthless frequent flyer program because the planes look new, the crews are generally well trained and helpful, and above all else the flights arrive on time.

If you live in a hub you fly the hub airline. For the rest of the country, if you are a business passenger, the number one thing that matters is OTP. If you live in a hub, being late is a nuisance. If you have to make a connection, it could mean being stranded overnight in a city without your things and having to disappoint your little girl who really wanted mommy at her first school play.

That’s why JetBlue’s OTP doesn’t kill them and American’s does. Almost all b6 flyers are hub flyers. Being late is a nuisance not a life ruiner. Delta commands a premium because business traffic in small and medium markets trusts them to be on time in a way UA and most especially AA cannot match.

The rude flight attendants and lack of mood lighting just add insult to injury but the banked super hubs need to go or else AA is not going to get the OTP it needs to compete.
 
acentauri
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:03 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Some steps AA should take to fix itself
....................................................
2. Build back up JFK/LGA and stop this nonsense of shifting everything to PHL.
..................

What exactly has been shifted from JFK (or LGA) to PHL since the merger was approved? I mean was LHR, or CDG, or FRA, or MUC, or FCO, or MAD, or VCE, or xxx moved from NYC to PHL, or were those already served by US ? Oh why did I contribute and extend this nonsense Thread :roll: :roll:
 
tpaewr
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:06 am

It is all about the culture. That is what the pax feel.

The “new” but really not so much now DL has no trace of the bitterness from NW.


The “new” UA is still confused dresses up like a modern version CO but inside is still the same old UA from a decade ago.

AA too has lost it cohesion a Frankenstein of HP, post BK US and the final gasping days of the original AA.

It is a lack of vision and continuity that is seeing DL always on top.


Can’t say I am not jealous every time I fly them. But to be fair my bro works there, no place is perfect. They have issues too
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 am

2014 called, they want their United thread back.

Seriously, I am getting serious deja vu of the Smisek era United reading this.

United made a number of changes at the top (Munoz, Kirby), refocused on their product (Polaris, PremiumPlus), made a concerted effort to improve their on-time performance (largely successful), plus the cherry on top of the Dao incident gave the entire company the kick up the backside it needed to turn things around. Look at them now, it might as well be a different airline. Their financial results have followed that upward trend. They aren't perfect, but United is a hell of a lot better than the were 5 years ago, and arguably better than either airline was pre-merger.

I'm not going to say "dump Doug!!!!" and assume that will fix it, but United have shown that it is possible to come back from this place. It just take vision and leadership.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:57 am

In my experience, lack of further connectivity on AA metal from JFK is a big problem. At least every time I try to go anyplace via JFK, there's no flights...
 
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mikegigs
Posts: 237
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:28 pm

Well, since we're all talking about legroom comparison, I did a quick analysis of short haul (narrowbody) legroom across the US3. My source for the data was SeatGuru, so take that for what it's worth, but I found that the approximate pitch averages based on fleet type were as follows:

AA: 30.88"
DL: 31.02"
UA: 30.62"
B6: 32.83"

I threw in B6 for comparison since it's typically agreed upon that they have the best economy legroom. Note that these numbers are only seat pitch, which doesn't always correlate to legroom. Two airlines could have the same pitch but one may use a slimline seat so the actual leg space is larger. These numbers are only for narrowbodies (including regional) and are based off fleet type - so these averages aren't the gospel, but do give a basic idea.
Airports: BOS, JAX, JFK, EWR, LGA, CVG, ATL, CLT, DCA, IAD, STT, PVD, ALB, MCO
Aircraft: 733, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 717, A319, A320, MD-88, E190, E175, E145, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, Q400
Airlines: B6, CO, DL, US, NW, WN, DH
...a good start but a long way to go!
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1848
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:50 pm

Sydscott wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
There is a reason AA had to merge, Doug's team was given an operation who's employees and travelers expect 5 star service, but only willing to pay 3 star prices (prior to Doug + team). Something had to give and the team is now running an airline without being negative in revenue.

AA's glory days and its previous management teams are the reason AA is what is it today. Blame them and not the current team who is helping AA survive


Except that AA charges 5 star prices but provides 2 star service; based on my recent two international segments in J.


After lots of experience flying Qantas, Cathay, Emirates and Etihad I flew AA long haul last year a couple of times. From everything I have read on here and from "professional" commentators I had fairly low expectations, (afterall nothing can really beat Emirates and Etihads First Class), but AA was a pleasant surprise. Yes I found the business seat was too narrow on their 777 but that was really the only issue with the flights I had. The pillows and blankets were actually pretty good, the crews on both flights were pleasant and professional and the flights were all broadly on time with no significant delays and no issues making connections. The lounge at JFK was also pretty good. I didn't find them as bad as what everyone seems to say that they are. Maybe the Australian accent helped?


Of the carriers you have listed, I have only ever flown them in business never first nor economy. Compared to all of them, I found AA to be sadly lacking. If you think AA's Flagship Lounge at JFK is pretty good, how would you rate Cathy's lounge in Hong Kong or London, Emirates lounge in Dubai and Etihad's lounge in Abu Dhabi?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:15 pm

grbauc wrote:
There website is still in 2019 not able to book me on partner airlines or use miles on them on international itinerary.


I don't know who you're referring to here. DL award miles can be used online with more than 20 partner carriers. DL was booking 20 partners online when AA.com couldn't do eight.

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