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Detroit313
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:20 pm

AA needs to add more seats on their planes to match Delta.

Even after the Oasis retrofit, AA's 321 will have less seats than Delta's.

Pretty much every single Delta plane has more seats than AA's because Delta puts the lavs in the AFT galley like they did with their new Airbuses.

DL also adds a row of 2 seats in the exit rows whereas AA has a lot of space in the exit rows.

More seats = more revenue and DL has realized that. They just hide the fact that they do that by hyping things and providing good service.
Last edited by Detroit313 on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:33 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
AA needs to add more seats on their planes to match Delta.

Even after the Oasis retrofit, AA's 321 will have less seats than Delta's.

Pretty much every single Delta plane has more seats than AA's because Delta puts the lavs in the AFT galley like they did with their new Airbuses.

DL also adds a row of 2 seats in the exit rows whereas AA has a lot of space in the exit rows.


DELTA A321
CEO: 191 seats
NEO: 197 seats

AA A321
OASIS: 190 seats
NEO: 196 seats.

ONE seats difference. That is as huge as you made it sound like.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:39 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
AA needs to add more seats on their planes to match Delta.

Even after the Oasis retrofit, AA's 321 will have less seats than Delta's.

Pretty much every single Delta plane has more seats than AA's because Delta puts the lavs in the AFT galley like they did with their new Airbuses.

DL also adds a row of 2 seats in the exit rows whereas AA has a lot of space in the exit rows.


DELTA A321
CEO: 191 seats
NEO: 197 seats

AA A321
OASIS: 190 seats
NEO: 196 seats.

ONE seats difference. That is as huge as you made it sound like.



AA has only like 2 Oasis 321 so far and like 8 Neos. So AA has hundreds of 321 with like 10-15 seats less than DL's 321. Inevitably such a huge difference creates a revenue gap between the two airlines. Simply put, DL generates more revenue everytime they fly a 321 compared to AA.

When AA is done with the 737 and 321 retrofits by 2022, the fleet will generate more revenue.
 
afcjets
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:42 pm

American would be a better airline if DFW was still a Delta hub. IIRC American had a positive share gap over United at ORD too. In the early to mid 1990s they had an agressive ad campaign there and much more international service than United. American always beat the competition when they had to, now they would rather focus more on markets where they don't have to compete with another network carrier.
Last edited by afcjets on Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:42 pm

DL has 95 A321s, AA has 228. With nine being Neos.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:44 pm

The first step toward positive change is admitting that there is a problem. In this way, it seems as if AA is finally beginning to see a need for change. But real change will not come until there is a thorough housecleaning over at the glass palace, beginning with DP in the C-suite and working their way down several management levels.

The next thing that needs to change is the culture, but this cannot begin until top leadership is evicted and replaced with true leaders. People who can encourage and motivate and build good working relationships and environments. I can recall a time when AA employees used to really work well together as a cohesive team. That was a long time ago and I haven't witnessed that in years. Now it feels as if many at AA are pissed off at the company and sometimes even pissed off at one another. Customers pick up on this. We are not stupid, deaf or blind. Memories of just how uncomfortable and unpleasant your past interactions with the company have been is a powerful driver of future purchase decisions. Is it worth paying $25 more to avoid that company and how they make you feel? This is one way that revenue premiums are born.

DELTA doesn't have to be the best airline to succeed in the long term. They just have to be noticeably better than their primary competitors, which right now are AA and UA. A big piece of being "better than AA and UA" is being able to run an on-time operation with fewer unexpected hiccups affecting customers and being able to do it consistently over long periods of time. That goes a very long way toward meeting the core expectations of customers.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Of course it's about money. In the U.S, it's always about money, directly or indirectly. Management runs the company for the benefit of the owners. Shareholders, not stakeholders. If that confuses you please enroll in Capitalism 101. Some management teams lead more deftly than others: Herb Kelleher was legendary for it; Richard Anderson did a pretty good job. Look at Lorenzo, Smisek and Checchi at the other end of the spectrum.


This is such a MISINFORMED and generalized thinking. In USA, the listed company, however big or small, NEVER is run for the benefits of shareholder.

First, in AA's case, its is influenced by following actors:
1, Shareholders (over 80% institutional owners and 15% individual owners plus est. 2-5% management owned shares.)
Shareholders does not own the company. It owns the left over equity of the company. It is a big difference.
2, Board members. They do not necessarily own the shares, but they have a direct say on company management issues. They supposedly act on behalf of shareholders but it never does.
3, Debt owners: If AA is to declare insolvent, depends on the type of debt, the creditors would have preference. Shareholder would get screwed.
4, Management
5, Stakeholders including staff and local airports beneficiaries.

Among share holders, there are:
1, Investment Banks
2, Fund investment companies
3, Active investors
4, Small and individual shareholders

Even though Wall Street is calling the shots in influence how the company is run, but a company's priority is not to serve the shareholders, It needs to serve its own debts first. And, guess what AA's debt liability is?

Do you get the pictures now? Of course shareholder always ask for higher return. It might gave you a false impression that management would bend for shareholders' demand. But it never happens.

The management only answer to board room member pressure. The problem with boarding room member is that they often are in other companies' boarding room (except immediate competitors). The oversight is very weak unless management made serious mistakes. The boardroom member is also under pressure from the major shareholders (i.e. institutional investors) as they need to have enough votes to get re-elected. So the board room member tends to be less vocal or overly influential. In most cases, the management have total control.

The listed company is not for the benefits of shareholders, but the management, the board room and the institutional investor or major investors. However, the creditors comes first in any case.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
jagraham wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:

Not to start anything, But what data do you have to support the 90% assertion and 80% assertion? Also, how are you defining metros? I count 7 of 10 by MSA/CSA definitions and less by pure city populations. Gaps on the csa front are SFO, HOU, BOS. Also, The 788 would need reconfiguration, it would be a 33% decrease in premium seats... given how well aa does with the lay flat F & J cabins on the a321t.


It is CSA. SFO and BOS are focus cities. IAH is the missing CSA.

You are right about the 788. Only 20 J seats!?! On international flights??? What's the point of that nice new cattle car? SMH. Thanks for bringing that to my attention . . I must have been thinking 789s

How are you defining focus city? Sfo only sees hub flying these days and BOS might be considered with the couple of eagle routes and Saturday non hub flying, but compared to the “focus city” definition used at DL, UA it’s a stretch... putting that aside though I am curious what data you used to get to the 80 & 90% of trip numbers, I can’t quite rationalize that 90% of trips in the US originate or end at one of the top 10 MSA/CSA, the population is too spread out.

SFO isn't a focus city and there is no way that 80% and 90% is correct. Just look at all the traffic to places like MCO, LAS, ATL, PHX, SEA, etc.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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enilria
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:00 pm

Future headline: "Shareholders Recognize Widening Gap Between AA Leadership and Delta Leadership"

I think AA and UA are less labor friendly, but also less anti-competitive in their behavior. I think DL was the first carrier to come to the conclusion that you don't automatically expand capacity in successful markets, instead you grow margins and take any step possible to keep out competitors while leaving capacity static or even decreasing it until margins hit 20-30%.

I think the strong margins at AS/B6 are much less meaningful than at DL because while turning in great results, DL is also loss-leading like crazy is markets like LAX/SEA/BOS and now probably MIA. B6 and AS basically aren't investing in any new initiative like Delta is. If you compared apples to apples where you removed investment/loss-leader flying, Delta has a 10-12 margin over anybody.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:04 pm

Mboyle1988 wrote:
Delta doesn’t get a fare premium because of the stupidity of the American public. The Great and Powerful Oz can only keep them distracted so long before they find the man behind the curtain. Passengers put up with Delta’s tight legroom, basic economy, and worthless frequent flyer program because the planes look new, the crews are generally well trained and helpful, and above all else the flights arrive on time.

Tight legroom? They're actually better, on average, in Y than BOTH AA and UA. Basic economy? Who doesn't have that among the big 3...and at least DL and AA allow you to bring a carry-on. Hell, DL and AA also give you free booze in E+, unlike UA. SkyPesos? Yah, you're correct there...but DL has had some amazing flash sales using miles...albeit from their hub locations (and not outstation locations like my OKC). So what sets Delta apart and is a testament to why their reviews and numbers seem to keep improving? It could be the mass IFE on their mainline jets...which is a definite plus for families. But I believe it's the customer service culture from top to bottom. I'm currently a Platinum Medallion, which is largely due to military travel back and forth to Europe last year, but I've also flown the other airlines on personal travel if they match my desired travel times and prices...and DL is head over heels better on the customer service front than AA and UA (including up in F), in my opinion. And it's the little things they've done for customer service that make the biggest impressions...like addressing me by my name when I'm up in F, the handwritten cards thanking me for my loyalty, the empathy when I've had to change or cancel fights due to military matters (unlike AA, who flat-out told me I was SOL, even though their website said otherwise).

The man behind the curtain is actually doing things the right way for DL...same can't be said at AA.
 
Airbuser
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:15 pm

DL747400 wrote:
The first step toward positive change is admitting that there is a problem. In this way, it seems as if AA is finally beginning to see a need for change. But real change will not come until there is a thorough housecleaning over at the glass palace, beginning with DP in the C-suite and working their way down several management levels.

The next thing that needs to change is the culture, but this cannot begin until top leadership is evicted and replaced with true leaders. People who can encourage and motivate and build good working relationships and environments. I can recall a time when AA employees used to really work well together as a cohesive team. That was a long time ago and I haven't witnessed that in years. Now it feels as if many at AA are pissed off at the company and sometimes even pissed off at one another. Customers pick up on this. We are not stupid, deaf or blind. Memories of just how uncomfortable and unpleasant your past interactions with the company have been is a powerful driver of future purchase decisions. Is it worth paying $25 more to avoid that company and how they make you feel? This is one way that revenue premiums are born.

DELTA doesn't have to be the best airline to succeed in the long term. They just have to be noticeably better than their primary competitors, which right now are AA and UA. A big piece of being "better than AA and UA" is being able to run an on-time operation with fewer unexpected hiccups affecting customers and being able to do it consistently over long periods of time. That goes a very long way toward meeting the core expectations of customers.



You nailed it. Mr. Parker and friends had us when the merger happened. Previous management was just down right mean to its employees. They preached being a better place to work but it hasn’t been felt yet. I really feel for our passengers. They are getting killed. I see it every day. No one seems to realize how bad it is out there on the line. Morale is very low despite their efforts. I still like Mr. Parker (tripled my pay, doubled my vacation, makes me work less) but maybe he doesn’t have the ability to right the sinking ship. Obviously the board is still eating out of his hand. We are in desperate need of an operations guru.

The things I see are down right incompetence. An hour wait for an air start cart at a major hub. Multiple pieces of equipment in the way when parking. No agent to drive jet bridges. Angry employees everywhere. I am really upset because I care so much. Who wants to go on vacation and get stuck for days at the airport? We recently had 20 airplanes exceed the 3 hour tarmac rule. 80 million bucks at least. Anyone get fired? Not yet.

I don’t have much time left. If I go out when things are like this I will never forget it. Please someone save us.
 
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DLSANMan
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:30 pm

So funny to read the comments and think that routes, city focus etc is a solution. When every really needs to be focused on upper management. The only way to change AA is going to be from upper management turn over, forcing down a paradigm shift in customer service, product, and BECOMING INNOVATIVE. AA has done nothing to be innovative!
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm

chonetsao wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Of course it's about money. In the U.S, it's always about money, directly or indirectly. Management runs the company for the benefit of the owners. Shareholders, not stakeholders. If that confuses you please enroll in Capitalism 101. Some management teams lead more deftly than others: Herb Kelleher was legendary for it; Richard Anderson did a pretty good job. Look at Lorenzo, Smisek and Checchi at the other end of the spectrum.


This is such a MISINFORMED and generalized thinking. In USA, the listed company, however big or small, NEVER is run for the benefits of shareholder.

First, in AA's case, its is influenced by following actors:
1, Shareholders (over 80% institutional owners and 15% individual owners plus est. 2-5% management owned shares.)
Shareholders does not own the company. It owns the left over equity of the company. It is a big difference.
2, Board members. They do not necessarily own the shares, but they have a direct say on company management issues. They supposedly act on behalf of shareholders but it never does.
3, Debt owners: If AA is to declare insolvent, depends on the type of debt, the creditors would have preference. Shareholder would get screwed.
4, Management
5, Stakeholders including staff and local airports beneficiaries.

Among share holders, there are:
1, Investment Banks
2, Fund investment companies
3, Active investors
4, Small and individual shareholders

Even though Wall Street is calling the shots in influence how the company is run, but a company's priority is not to serve the shareholders, It needs to serve its own debts first. And, guess what AA's debt liability is?

Do you get the pictures now? Of course shareholder always ask for higher return. It might gave you a false impression that management would bend for shareholders' demand. But it never happens.

The management only answer to board room member pressure. The problem with boarding room member is that they often are in other companies' boarding room (except immediate competitors). The oversight is very weak unless management made serious mistakes. The boardroom member is also under pressure from the major shareholders (i.e. institutional investors) as they need to have enough votes to get re-elected. So the board room member tends to be less vocal or overly influential. In most cases, the management have total control.

The listed company is not for the benefits of shareholders, but the management, the board room and the institutional investor or major investors. However, the creditors comes first in any case.

A company’s fiduciary responsibilities is to the shareholders.
 
Elementalism
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:05 pm

American 767 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Some steps AA should take to fix itself

1. Improve operational reliability and customer experience/service (I.e, ditch Project Oasis)

2. Build back up JFK/LGA and stop this nonsense of shifting everything to PHL.

3. Optimize/rebuild the layouts of DFW and CLT, their most profitable hubs for better connections. Not necessarily saying rebuild the entire terminal space at each place, but there are things they can do at both that could make things more efficient.

4. Upgauge to more mainline flights in their core hubs of DFW, CLT and ORD.

5. Improve the soft product in all classes


And 6. Think twice about reintroducing the 737MAX even if the FAA lifts the ban. Yes it is true that American was one of the launch customers of the MAX about a decade ago or so, but they have been postponing deliveries and passengers were not very satisfied with the newest variant of the 737, so I'm not so sure they are really enthusiastic about that airplane. They have to think seriously: "The MAX do we really want that airplane?" That's the very question they have to ask themselves. Southwest, who was always loyal to Boeing and always wanted to be all-737, is now considering switching to another aircraft maybe not even a Boeing model. So I won't be surprised if American decides to do the same: remove the MAX from the fleet and choose something else. I have never flown on the MAX so I can't judge what that airplane really is, but I have heard negative feedback since American started flying it.


And replace it with that? Some of you are really believing people will care if it is a MAX. If people are not happy with the MAX on AA. It isnt because of the plane. It is because AA fitted it in a way people didnt like it. I dont hear glowing reviews of Oaisis on the A321s neither. So should they dump those as well?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:05 pm

There is a lot of comments in this thread about some very micro issues however taking a step back there are several big macro-level issues that are affecting their PRASM.

1) Revenue management strategies (e.g. pricing and yield management; where they decide to either compete or ignore ULCC pricing)

2) Ability to get monetize and sell more premium seats (DL has found a way to monetize and get passengers to actually pay for domestic F)

3) Capacity deployment / utilization flying; AA more than anyone seems to have more off-peak flying, (e.g., red-eyes, departures before 6am, arrivals after 12am. I use CLT for an example to all the flights from outstations that depart between 5-6am, these tend to not draw as much premium/business traffic, and I question how much these stuff tends to dilute yields)

Customer service, attitudes, ok fine yes there is room for improvement but these things are much harder to quantify, differentiate (and monetize) verse the competition and heavily influenced by one-off experiences.

Seat pitch, not drastically different than competitors.

As others have said, AA is kind of this hybrid of both legacy and ULCC elements across many aspects which gives them a bit of of identify crisis at times.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:08 pm

The 6am ISH flight to LGA is always packed from CLT.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:16 pm

6am flights to LGA is one thing since its accomodates the day-trip crowd, a TYS-CLT flight that departs at 5:12am is what I'm talking about.

In this economy, its easy to "pack" a plane, but what type of fares are necessary to entice more price-sensitive traffic to take a 5:12am flight versus a 7am departure?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:31 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
6am flights to LGA is one thing since its accomodates the day-trip crowd, a TYS-CLT flight that departs at 5:12am is what I'm talking about.

In this economy, its easy to "pack" a plane, but what type of fares are necessary to entice more price-sensitive traffic to take a 5:12am flight versus a 7am departure?

That's just a brutal time for a flight. If you leave a half hour away, you are leaving your house at 3:30 am.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
ethernal
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:37 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
3) Capacity deployment / utilization flying; AA more than anyone seems to have more off-peak flying, (e.g., red-eyes, departures before 6am, arrivals after 12am. I use CLT for an example to all the flights from outstations that depart between 5-6am, these tend to not draw as much premium/business traffic, and I question how much these stuff tends to dilute yields)


That's true of all primary connection hubs like Charlotte. They breath in early flights in the morning and breath out those connections in the first wave like 7-8 AM.

Atlanta - despite not being a banked hub - is like that too. Flights don't start leaving out of Atlanta until 7 AM (excluding some select high O&D flights like to LGA) - but tons of flights arrive by 6-7 AM with those departures leaving as early as 5 AM.
 
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Polot
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
6am flights to LGA is one thing since its accomodates the day-trip crowd, a TYS-CLT flight that departs at 5:12am is what I'm talking about.

Those flights are aimed at the connecting passengers who want to get to their destinations earlier in the day (for business, to enjoy longer day at vacation site, etc), by taking advantage of the first wave at the connecting hub, not really local pax. Added bonus for airline is they can RON at cheaper airport or someplace with more room and still have aircraft at hub for first wave.

Early morning small city-ATL/CLT are very common in the Southeast (and similar elsewhere). They may not be 100% packed but they are often pretty full.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:41 pm

I'm on a 6:30AM flight next Monday. For a lot of consultants it's either leave Sunday night or Monday AM, the latter assuming you can arrive by mid to late morning. If one has a family those 5-6AM flights are a necessity.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:45 pm

No, AA runs very early departures in the eastern half of the country into PHL and CLT. A lot of those first flights out depart outstations between 5-6am.
DL runs very few flights from outstations into DTW & ATL that departure before 6am. Most depart right between 6-6:30am, and that's typical for most carriers.

There is a big difference between a 5am flight versus a 6:30am.

AA just runs some really early flights out, and I question what type of revenue premium these flights are able to command.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:59 pm

More old school thinking. Who care what the RASM is if that is extra utilization that you already are paying the fixed cost the incremental revenue is all profit!!!!
 
Elementalism
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:59 pm

I fly out of MSP early all the time. Especially on day trips to Chicago or Milwaukee. I have been on 6am Chicago flights that get me in around 7am. To the office by 8:30. And then hop back on a flight around 6PM and back in MSP by 7PM.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:11 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
More old school thinking. Who care what the RASM is if that is extra utilization that you already are paying the fixed cost the incremental revenue is all profit!!!!


Economists figured this out four decades ago. The fools (they cited CO at the time, IIRC) who thought they didn't need to cover average costs but just incremental costs because it's all extra flying.

MIT Data Project, avg block hours per aircraft, small narrowbodies:

AA 2017, 8.61 hours
AA 2018, 8.81 hours

DL 2017, 8.87 hours
DL 2018, 8.94 hours

AA isn't getting extra utilization (in spite of having a much newer fleet).
 
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N717TW
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't see how they can give up on new York market and expect this to happen.


two points

1. You can actually make more money by "giving up" on the NY market
2. I don't feel its fair to say they gave up. They certainly don't have a mega hub there but sans buying B6 they really can't.

As to NY, AA has focused on the routes and markets where they. actually will bring in high PRASM yield (i.e. LAX, LHR, GRU, MXP, SFO) and dropped the stuff that doesn't (i.e. MCO) while also dropping the odd-stuff that served as connecting traffic and push that traffic through PHL. These are all steps that improve PRASM. Yes, there is the S-curve issue where AA is losing business b/c it no longer serves ZRH (That's probably the biggest EU gap) and has dropped a lot of west coast from JFK. I think we all agree that the crap from BWI, etc didn't actually do anything for AA except fill flights that might otherwise go out light. I think if this as similar to DL's MSP/DTW hubs vs. ORD. Sure, Chicago is a much bigger and more lucrative market but given the choice between "owning" Detroit and Minnie vs sharing Chicago, DL makes much more money in the midwest than AA (or UA) does. Parker did the same analysis: Be big in NYC where they need to be and do things where it makes sense but otherwise own PHL where they can mint money.

Parker from his HP and US days is playing the yield game but not as well as DL is. If AA's product was as solid as DL's then AA would probably be just as profitable as DL given the size and $ value of their hub markets.
 
steeler83
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:18 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see how they can give up on new York market and expect this to happen.

That would be a big step to get serious about one of the largest markets in the country, second might be to focus on getting people from A to B, not only deal with the operational challenges, but might be time to rethink some p2p flying, if there’s significant demand, why not skip the hub? Not everyone wants to fly through CLT or DFW.


I think this would be a capital idea quite frankly. I don't think DL is the only airline exercising p2p flying either. AA, on the other hand, seems to have abandoned this and flying everyone through their hubs, which I think is a mistake. While Pittsburgh is not a significant market, they still have a sizeable FF base there that they're not taking advantage of. They do serve PIT-CUN, but other than that, what other P2P routes do they serve out of there? Besides AA's token presence on PIT-MIA, there are no legacy airlines flying to Florida at all.

I'm sure there are other markets that they could be serving better. They used to have a decent operation at STL. What happened to that?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
More old school thinking. Who care what the RASM is if that is extra utilization that you already are paying the fixed cost the incremental revenue is all profit!!!!


Economists figured this out four decades ago. The fools (they cited CO at the time, IIRC) who thought they didn't need to cover average costs but just incremental costs because it's all extra flying.

MIT Data Project, avg block hours per aircraft, small narrowbodies:

AA 2017, 8.61 hours
AA 2018, 8.81 hours

DL 2017, 8.87 hours
DL 2018, 8.94 hours

AA isn't getting extra utilization (in spite of having a much newer fleet).

AA had 943 planes, DL has 911.
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:26 pm

If I didnt know any better, I'd say that AA openly admires DL. Remember this article by Forbes? It was written 4 years ago.

American Airlines To Delta Air Lines: Hats Off To You For Operational Excellence


American Airlines and Delta Air Lines are obviously not the best of friends, but on Thursday a top American executive congratulated Delta for its operational excellence. “Delta’s done a great job: hats off to them,” Robert Isom, American Chief Operating Officer, said Thursday during a Credit Suisse investor presentation, as he displayed slides showing American’s improving operational performance – including more completions, on-time departures and arrivals and fewer mishandled bags.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... cde3837719
 
jagraham
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:39 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
jagraham wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:

Not to start anything, But what data do you have to support the 90% assertion and 80% assertion? Also, how are you defining metros? I count 7 of 10 by MSA/CSA definitions and less by pure city populations. Gaps on the csa front are SFO, HOU, BOS. Also, The 788 would need reconfiguration, it would be a 33% decrease in premium seats... given how well aa does with the lay flat F & J cabins on the a321t.


It is CSA. SFO and BOS are focus cities. IAH is the missing CSA.

You are right about the 788. Only 20 J seats!?! On international flights??? What's the point of that nice new cattle car? SMH. Thanks for bringing that to my attention . . I must have been thinking 789s

How are you defining focus city? Sfo only sees hub flying these days and BOS might be considered with the couple of eagle routes and Saturday non hub flying, but compared to the “focus city” definition used at DL, UA it’s a stretch... putting that aside though I am curious what data you used to get to the 80 & 90% of trip numbers, I can’t quite rationalize that 90% of trips in the US originate or end at one of the top 10 MSA/CSA, the population is too spread out.


Hubs have spokes
Spokes only have service to a couple of hubs
Focus cities have service to most or all of the hubs. And maybe a couple of p2p routes.

If an airport had much more than 5 p2p routes it would be a hub
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:13 pm

Why oh why is Dougie still in charge? The only reason I can think of is he has dirt on the rest of the board members/top investors.
 
Sightseer
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:14 pm

jagraham wrote:
Hubs have spokes
Spokes only have service to a couple of hubs
Focus cities have service to most or all of the hubs. And maybe a couple of p2p routes.

If an airport had much more than 5 p2p routes it would be a hub


The terms are pretty vague, especially for focus city, but using the definitions above would make, for example, SLC a focus city for AA, and CUN a hub for DL, neither of which I think are opinions most people on this site share. Of course, they are just opinions.
 
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SFOA380
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:21 pm

According to Wikipedia, SFO is not in the top ten MSA estimates for last year but ATL and HOU are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ical_areas

MSAs are largely meaningless. CSAs are what count because they combine adjacent MSAs. San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, etc. all feed each other economically. It's one huge city the same way as LA and Orange County and Riverside are one huge city.

Chicagoland, Greater DC and Greater SF Bay Area are #3, #4 and #5 in that order and are only separated by 200K - all at nearly 10 million. Chicagoland will likely drop from #3 to #4 at the next census.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:40 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
Why oh why is Dougie still in charge? The only reason I can think of is he has dirt on the rest of the board members/top investors.

He is Chairman of the Board besides CEO.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:21 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
No, AA runs very early departures in the eastern half of the country into PHL and CLT. A lot of those first flights out depart outstations between 5-6am.
DL runs very few flights from outstations into DTW & ATL that departure before 6am. Most depart right between 6-6:30am, and that's typical for most carriers.

There is a big difference between a 5am flight versus a 6:30am.

AA just runs some really early flights out, and I question what type of revenue premium these flights are able to command.


I got curious and fact checked this. Every station I looked at had a pre-6 am flight to ATL on DL. The earliest was 510 from BHM but there were also:

515 MCO
520 MEM
525 JAX
530 STL
530 FLL
530 HSV
535 RIC

I don't think your criticism holds water. Having early/late banks is how megahubs become megahubs.
 
steeler83
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:31 pm

jagraham wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
jagraham wrote:

It is CSA. SFO and BOS are focus cities. IAH is the missing CSA.

You are right about the 788. Only 20 J seats!?! On international flights??? What's the point of that nice new cattle car? SMH. Thanks for bringing that to my attention . . I must have been thinking 789s

How are you defining focus city? Sfo only sees hub flying these days and BOS might be considered with the couple of eagle routes and Saturday non hub flying, but compared to the “focus city” definition used at DL, UA it’s a stretch... putting that aside though I am curious what data you used to get to the 80 & 90% of trip numbers, I can’t quite rationalize that 90% of trips in the US originate or end at one of the top 10 MSA/CSA, the population is too spread out.


Hubs have spokes
Spokes only have service to a couple of hubs
Focus cities have service to most or all of the hubs. And maybe a couple of p2p routes.

If an airport had much more than 5 p2p routes it would be a hub

That's not how I'd define hub vs. focus city vs. spoke. The way I see it, spokes are connected only to the hubs, whether it's to one, two, or all of them. Some spokes may have a token p2p leisure route or two thrown in but not much. Focus cities are all or most hubs plus at least a handful of focus cities. I would go further to say that focus cities would typically have a minimum of 50 daily flights. A hub is self-explanatory.

DL has far more than 5 p2p city-pairs out of CVG, yet that is considered a focus city.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
OB1504
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:05 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
I realize there are many factors at play as to why AA is losing the battle vs DL. That said, as someone who has purchased full fare tickets (meaning not ZED) on both AA and DL to travel from Europe to the U.S., I have an idea why AA is losing the battle. I understand that my experiences are limited to just a handful of flights HOWEVER, my experiences on AA were absolutely awful. It had nothing to do with the soft product. Yes, the airplanes weren't as well appointed as the DL airplanes, but it wasn't that part of the experience that I remember most. What I remember most is the disdain with which the AA CSA's and FA's treated their passengers. On every single flight they were rude, condescending and dismissive to the passengers. I'd never actually heard a FA yell at a passenger before flying on AA. They clearly thought the passengers were an inconvenience and they treated them as such. They barked orders at them, made up and imposed ridiculous rules to keep passengers from bothering the crew, rushed through the services and disappeared. It was appalling. All flights were connections at PHL. On the contrary, I have been on several DL transatlantic flights as well - all paid tickets. The crews were kind and friendly. They were helpful and appeared to enjoy their jobs. I'm not a DL fanboy by any stretch of the imagination - nor do I hate AA for any particular reason. I'm sure AA has some amazing employees - and I'm sure DL has some rude employees that hate customers. As a consumer, however, I have decided that I won't purchase another ticket on AA if I can avoid it. I'm not willing to take my chances that the several experiences I've had were just "one-off's". AA could well be losing the race because people don't want to buy tickets on them if there are choices because they want to be treated with a modicum of humanity... Just some food for thought.


I was going to chime in that I haven’t had the same experiences with surly staff until you mentioned that all your AA flights were via PHL. They have by far the worst agents, but I can’t blame the employees as a whole for being moody given how quickly the airline is declining.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:19 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

But none of that explains why AA still lags so far behind in terms of revenue. That's the biggest problem IMO. Dougie has made AA so horrible that no one in their right mind would fly a premium to fly AA. Sure their planes are full, but everyones are. Yet clearly AA is filling their seats at rock bottom prices compared to their peers. Probably because their onboard product is a disaster.

A huge part of Delta’s revenue premium is seats per plane and somehow Delta gets away with it:
Take the 777: most seats of any international 772 among us3. Before and after their J/W retrofit even with 3-3-3 seating
A321ceo: most seats of any us3
A321NEO: public info that it will have one more seat than an aa a321neo
A319: most seats of any us3
752: domestic delta birds are at 199 & 193 seats. AA’a closest variant is at 188. United isn’t anywhere close to even 188
753: 2 higher than United
Back when aa had MD80: 140 seats. Delta md88 are at 149. MD90: 158
delta 763: highest again of the us3, by far, on average. Delta has about zero consistency with their 4 layouts.
764: the most again. Higher than United (even though Delta has more J). The new delta config with W is less than United.
A320: 157 seats. Aa at 150. United at 150
738: tied with pre oasis aa, aa is higher post oasis. United seems higher though they have a lot of versions of the 738
739: higher than United by 1
A332: aa is higher
A333: Delta 293. Aa 291, even with fewer J seats on the aa a333

Density matters for revenue, a lot. Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”


Very correct and DL has managed an effective PR campaign to take away from the fact that they've shoved more seats into a/c. To "soften the blow" DL has included or expanded AVOD along with several other smaller changes like modestly better snacks in Y. You can also look at it as bait and switch.


Not really. Its highlighting the pros and convincing passengers that the cons arent that bad. EK started the 10 across movement in premium airlines. But a combination of excellent AVOD, good service and lots of advertising, helped them still maintain a premium reputation.

AA, meanwhile is cutting everywhere, so there is no pro to lean on. Nothing says cheap and tone deaf as hearing the pushy credit card pitch after a 3 hour MX delay.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:25 pm

Anyone remember when AA added leg room not all that long ago???
 
steeler83
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:33 pm

I wouldn't say the surliness of the AA PHL employees are restricted to only AA. Philadelphia in general is a rather rude and surly city. People in general are rude and discourteous. That said, it doesn't help matters when you have poor management at the top. There is a trickle-down effect. Treat your staff well, and they'll perform well. They will have a sense of value not just for their company but also for themselves; their customers will notice that, too. Treat them badly and their performance will suffer, and the company will suffer.

I have flown on AA out of PHL, and I have also flown on Southwest and AirTran out of PHL. The attitude difference is like night and day; the WN and FL staff were far nicer.

All that said, I wonder what the customer experiences are like at other AA stations like MIA, DFW, ORD, LAX, etc...

By the way, I realize my post kinda contradicts itself. I just wanted to mention that yes, while Philadelphians in general are rather rude. I have yet to encounter such rude Philly folks who work for WN.
Last edited by steeler83 on Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Skyguy
Posts: 507
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:46 pm

Doug Parker and AA management are trying to please their master's; and that is Wall Street. The institutional investors and the analyst community want stock performance and financial results that are relatively stable with a modest degree of predictability. This has lead to AA (as well as the others) to try and increase that component of their revenue that is fixed and based on transaction revenue such as bag fees, and thus revenue is less susceptible to the vagaries of market pricing of fares. Along with this, their focus is on quarter to quarter movements, hence management decisions are made to ensure quarterly results are protected. How this could possibly work without thinking longer term and investing in business decisions that may take 1 or 2 years to bear fruit is anyone guess, after all route development, launch and marketing can take more than 1 year and results can take a while to settle down.

I am all for being nimble, but not having clarity on medium and long strategy and execution at the detailed level means you’re exposing yourself to the strengths of the competition and forced to be reactive and try and bridge the gap through whatever means necessary. In this industry you’re either leading or you’re playing catch-up. Right now, AA has been trying to play catch-up with a strategy which looks good on paper but in reality is not so friendly towards customers in terms of convenience or service or towards staff. AA has had an average run since emerging from bankruptcy and it’s merger with US, now it’s time for someone to bring in fresh perspective
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:02 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
Why oh why is Dougie still in charge? The only reason I can think of is he has dirt on the rest of the board members/top investors.


Seriously. If I had 3 DUIs on my record there's no way I'd still have my job. Rich people of a certain race have it made. Good for them I guess.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1759
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:34 pm

steeler83 wrote:
I wouldn't say the surliness of the AA PHL employees are restricted to only AA. Philadelphia in general is a rather rude and surly city. People in general are rude and discourteous. That said, it doesn't help matters when you have poor management at the top. There is a trickle-down effect. Treat your staff well, and they'll perform well. They will have a sense of value not just for their company but also for themselves; their customers will notice that, too. Treat them badly and their performance will suffer, and the company will suffer.

I have flown on AA out of PHL, and I have also flown on Southwest and AirTran out of PHL. The attitude difference is like night and day; the WN and FL staff were far nicer.

All that said, I wonder what the customer experiences are like at other AA stations like MIA, DFW, ORD, LAX, etc...

By the way, I realize my post kinda contradicts itself. I just wanted to mention that yes, while Philadelphians in general are rather rude. I have yet to encounter such rude Philly folks who work for WN.


We've had horrible service from AA employees EVERYWHERE. Including recently in YVR. So much for Canadians being nice!

PHL is particularly bad though. Not just the AA employees but everyone there is just horrible to deal with.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:54 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Airbuser wrote:
The number of employees to aircraft ratio is much higher at AA. Much higher mechanic numbers and management numbers than the other legacies. Through the bankruptcy the mechanics were not hit as hard as they were at the other airlines. AA outsources heavy maintenance far less than other airlines in the US. Do the ULCC have any major maintenance performed in the US? I think Arpey protected some of that and the result is what we have today. A knock down drag out fight with management and maintenance. Of course they are fighting to protect those jobs.


But none of that explains why AA still lags so far behind in terms of revenue. That's the biggest problem IMO. Dougie has made AA so horrible that no one in their right mind would fly a premium to fly AA. Sure their planes are full, but everyones are. Yet clearly AA is filling their seats at rock bottom prices compared to their peers. Probably because their onboard product is a disaster.

A huge part of Delta’s revenue premium is seats per plane and somehow Delta gets away with it:
Take the 777: most seats of any international 772 among us3. Before and after their J/W retrofit even with 3-3-3 seating
A321ceo: most seats of any us3
A321NEO: public info that it will have one more seat than an aa a321neo
A319: most seats of any us3
752: domestic delta birds are at 199 & 193 seats. AA’a closest variant is at 188. United isn’t anywhere close to even 188
753: 2 higher than United
Back when aa had MD80: 140 seats. Delta md88 are at 149. MD90: 158
delta 763: highest again of the us3, by far, on average. Delta has about zero consistency with their 4 layouts.
764: the most again. Higher than United (even though Delta has more J). The new delta config with W is less than United.
A320: 157 seats. Aa at 150. United at 150
738: tied with pre oasis aa, aa is higher post oasis. United seems higher though they have a lot of versions of the 738
739: higher than United by 1
A332: aa is higher
A333: Delta 293. Aa 291, even with fewer J seats on the aa a333

Density matters for revenue, a lot. Delta has simply been smart enough to realize that they’ll need a ton of marketing to keep from being called “Pack ‘em In Airlines”


Thank you for the analysis, it is always interesting to see the numbers. With those numbers being what they are, they are missing one thing to complete the picture, the ratio of premium seats to economy seats. If the pitch at DL is the same at AA and UA (another poster mentioned it was 30" for all three), then the ratio is what makes the difference.

And that is an important difference. If I had to guess (I don't have the data) DL has less premium seats, but has more people pay for those seats.

As an almost exclusively economy traveler, and a frequent passenger on both DL and AA A319/A320/A321s, I can say without a doubt, that Deltas are far and away more comfortable. For starters the interiors are new, there is a screen at every seat, and every A319/A320/A321 has the same interior. When the seats are likely very similar, it is everything else that makes a difference. And for the record, I am 6'4"/230, I am not saying that a 30" pitch seat is comfortable (though I usually get an exit row seat so pitch isn't always a factor).

So if DL can fit a few extra seats on the plane compared to AA, and my seat pitch doesn't change, I say go for it.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:08 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
There website is still in 2019 not able to book me on partner airlines or use miles on them on international itinerary.


I don't know who you're referring to here. DL award miles can be used online with more than 20 partner carriers. DL was booking 20 partners online when AA.com couldn't do eight.


AA I can't book award travel on there partners. I have to call daily to see if seats are open. So of the routing are not simple for many phone agents and or they don't know all the routings so it is a pain having to call to get or see when seats open up. Too complicated complicated for 2019 AA.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:12 am

chonetsao wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
AA needs to add more seats on their planes to match Delta.

Even after the Oasis retrofit, AA's 321 will have less seats than Delta's.

Pretty much every single Delta plane has more seats than AA's because Delta puts the lavs in the AFT galley like they did with their new Airbuses.

DL also adds a row of 2 seats in the exit rows whereas AA has a lot of space in the exit rows.


DELTA A321
CEO: 191 seats
NEO: 197 seats

AA A321
OASIS: 190 seats
NEO: 196 seats.


agree 1 seat big deal... PVT in a digital media addicted society that can't not look at there phones for 10 seconds while in line or at a stop light makes the image/perception Branding stronger. Such a stupid thing IMOP by AA>

ONE seats difference. That is as huge as you made it sound like.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3856
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:50 am

grbauc wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
There website is still in 2019 not able to book me on partner airlines or use miles on them on international itinerary.


I don't know who you're referring to here. DL award miles can be used online with more than 20 partner carriers. DL was booking 20 partners online when AA.com couldn't do eight.


AA I can't book award travel on there partners. I have to call daily to see if seats are open. So of the routing are not simple for many phone agents and or they don't know all the routings so it is a pain having to call to get or see when seats open up. Too complicated complicated for 2019 AA.


What are you talking about? You can book every AA partner except for CZ and LA on AA.com
 
Detroit313
Posts: 546
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Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:43 am

Delta's merger was approved in 2008. AA's basically in 2014. It is unfair to compare the two at the moment. Delta was still quite messy just 5 years after the merger. AA's flight attendants just merged only a year ago, November of 2018. It is a very young merger.

Give AA until 2023. All the retrofits will have been completed. 767s, A330-300s and 757s completely gone. Almost 85 787s overall. They'll be done with all the heavy tasks while United and Delta will still have tons of old widebodies, 757s etc. that will have to be replaced. They already have the youngest fleet among the big 3 by far.

AA will never make as much money as Delta does because their employees are unionized, they have way more employees than DL, they outsource much less and the contract rules and benefits cost much more per employee than at a non unionized carrier.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:34 am

steeler83 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
HPAEAA wrote:
How are you defining focus city? Sfo only sees hub flying these days and BOS might be considered with the couple of eagle routes and Saturday non hub flying, but compared to the “focus city” definition used at DL, UA it’s a stretch... putting that aside though I am curious what data you used to get to the 80 & 90% of trip numbers, I can’t quite rationalize that 90% of trips in the US originate or end at one of the top 10 MSA/CSA, the population is too spread out.


Hubs have spokes
Spokes only have service to a couple of hubs
Focus cities have service to most or all of the hubs. And maybe a couple of p2p routes.

If an airport had much more than 5 p2p routes it would be a hub

That's not how I'd define hub vs. focus city vs. spoke. The way I see it, spokes are connected only to the hubs, whether it's to one, two, or all of them. Some spokes may have a token p2p leisure route or two thrown in but not much. Focus cities are all or most hubs plus at least a handful of focus cities. I would go further to say that focus cities would typically have a minimum of 50 daily flights. A hub is self-explanatory.

DL has far more than 5 p2p city-pairs out of CVG, yet that is considered a focus city.


CVG was de-hubbed, so it's a special case
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: AA Leadership Recognizes Widening Gap Between Itself, Delta - article

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:47 am

grbauc wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
AA needs to add more seats on their planes to match Delta.

Even after the Oasis retrofit, AA's 321 will have less seats than Delta's.

Pretty much every single Delta plane has more seats than AA's because Delta puts the lavs in the AFT galley like they did with their new Airbuses.

DL also adds a row of 2 seats in the exit rows whereas AA has a lot of space in the exit rows.


agree 1 seat big deal... PVT in a digital media addicted society that can't not look at there phones for 10 seconds while in line or at a stop light makes the image/perception Branding stronger. Such a stupid thing IMOP by AA>

ONE seats difference. That is as huge as you made it sound like.



DELTA A321
CEO: 191 seats
NEO: 197 seats

AA A321
OASIS: 190 seats
NEO: 196 seats.

DL and AA are within 1 seat of each other, but

J PE E
DL 20 29 143 192 total
AA2 16 15 156 187 total
AA1 16 36 129 181 total

SeatGuru says Delta's PE seats are recliners; I will leave it to others to say if those 'recliners' are better than standard seats.
American's PE seats are Main Cabin Extra seats with 34" pitch vs 31" pitch for standard economy.

DL has 4 more J lie flat seats than AA in the same plane. I have to look farther to see why DL planes stlll manage to have a few more seats

All seat numbers from SeatGuru as of today.

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