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alberchico
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Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:10 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rs-top-150

https://thepointsguy.com/news/eviation- ... lane-tour/

https://www.afr.com/world/europe/orders ... 025-p53467

There are two interesting nuggets of information here :

"Work is already taking place on installing charging infrastructure for initial customer Cape Air"

"Eviation has $US200 million of funding from backers including Singapore's Clermont Group, which bought a 70 per cent stake this year, and needs a further $US500 million to enter serial production"

I honestly thought the Cape Air "order" was just a non-binding commitment meant primarily as a publicity stunt. I guess they're serious.The other problem is this aircraft will likely take a long time to get certified due to its radical configuration. After the MAX debacle the FAA won't be rubber stamping anything. But I genuinely hope this project succeeds.


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short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:21 am

Wait am I reading that they still need 500 million dollars to start producing aircraft for customers?

If so, I don't see this ending with this airplane in service anywhere.
 
Okie
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:26 am

Running costs will be about $200 per flight hour versus $1,000 for a turboprop, though the model will be slower than some conventional craft


So if we are talking a 9 seat at $200 per flight hour Alice and a 70+ seat ATR72 at $1000 per flight hour.
I am thinking still behind the cost curve per passenger.


Okie
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:29 am

I really really really hope they're successful. Battery electric passenger planes for short haul stuff will be brilliant.
 
ThalesCoelho
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:47 am

Dont wanna be inside that thing in a crosswind land.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:06 am

Don’t let Tesla touch the batteries and it should be fine.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:26 am

Okie wrote:
Running costs will be about $200 per flight hour versus $1,000 for a turboprop, though the model will be slower than some conventional craft


So if we are talking a 9 seat at $200 per flight hour Alice and a 70+ seat ATR72 at $1000 per flight hour.
I am thinking still behind the cost curve per passenger.


I don't think that $1000 per flight hour figure is referring to a large prop like an ATR72. I think they're comparing it with a somewhat smaller prop closer to the same class.

This document seems to suggest that an EMB120 is around $1000/hour, and an ATR72 is $2,258. That would make this electric aircraft quite competitive, especially since the fares per passenger-mile on these kinds of very short haul routes are likely to be quite high.
https://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/archive/cmsfiles/media/pdf/ad_pdf/2011/02/11/avd_02_11_2011_cht1.pdf

I don't think the somewhat lower speed will be much of an issue on flights that short. We're talking about a difference of a few minutes, and in any case there is often no airline competition. For the flights from major airports like BOS, I'm sure close to half the block time is spent on the ground. Since many of the destinations for these kinds of flights are islands, ground transportation is going to be much slower anyway.

The wireless phone chargers are a cute idea, but don't make much sense since most passengers probably want to use their phones through the flight rather than having them sit next to them.
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:37 am

I’m confused why it’s being compared to Jetstreams and ATRs?
It’s got 9seats. It’ll replace Cessna 402s.
What’s it cost to run a 402 for an hour?
 
planecane
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:59 am

Has anyone addressed the minor problem with lithium ion batteries losing capacity over time? In an airplane that means losing payload range. If I recall there was a study done on Tesla's where they lost 5% or more of their capacity after 100k miles. If batteries need to be replaced every few years to maintain acceptable range, it is going to make electric planes very expensive to maintain and not very environmentally friendly when considering production and disposal of the batteries.
 
Mi26
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:46 am

It seems they plan to use Aluminium–air batteries in the Business Jet Version, so if successful they will be very capable with excellent range.
From Wikipedia,
Aluminium as a "fuel" for vehicles has been studied by Yang and Knickle. They concluded:
The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline-powered cars...the cost of aluminium as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected), comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The designed battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of the battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:01 am

Mi26 wrote:
It seems they plan to use Aluminium–air batteries in the Business Jet Version, so if successful they will be very capable with excellent range.
From Wikipedia,
Aluminium as a "fuel" for vehicles has been studied by Yang and Knickle. They concluded:
The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline-powered cars...the cost of aluminium as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected), comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The designed battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of the battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost.


Great insight. You should contribute more often than twice a year. :)

Imagine coupling this technology with solar panels for additional range.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:23 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Don’t let Tesla touch the batteries and it should be fine.


A rather ignorant comment. No other company on earth has as much experience successfully managing battery systems. If you could point to Tesla batteries failing, or igniting while in use, you might have a point. But you can't.

planecane wrote:
Has anyone addressed the minor problem with lithium ion batteries losing capacity over time? In an airplane that means losing payload range. If I recall there was a study done on Tesla's where they lost 5% or more of their capacity after 100k miles. If batteries need to be replaced every few years to maintain acceptable range, it is going to make electric planes very expensive to maintain and not very environmentally friendly when considering production and disposal of the batteries.


Tesla data of older 18650s shows that the rate of decline slows after 50,000 miles and 5%. They have also announced they believe they have a battery that will last (70%?) 1,000,000 miles, probably introduced in a few months (not that I am saying they should or will use Tesla/Panasonic batteries). How that mileage translates to air travel I don't know and that concern can be handled by simply having enough batteries. Cells can also always be replaced individually. Additionally, I would not be so quick to say that even with battery replacement, it will be more expensive to maintain - how much does one engine overhaul cost? Environmentally, it is a no brainer. For the first 'recycle', used batteries happen to make excellent home storage systems, something of particular interest in places like California with electric rates as high as $.54/kWh and 2-3 day power outages now becoming the norm. In that usage, relative draw is quite light and they will be of service for many years.

Mi26 wrote:
It seems they plan to use Aluminium–air batteries in the Business Jet Version, so if successful they will be very capable with excellent range.
From Wikipedia,
Aluminium as a "fuel" for vehicles has been studied by Yang and Knickle. They concluded:
The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline-powered cars...the cost of aluminium as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected), comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The designed battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of the battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost.


They still have issues to overcome with the commercialization, but the energy density is quite good. Maybe aviation is the means to overcome those issues but new/better batteries are announced all the time for years and all we see thus far are incremental improvements of ~8%/year. I wouldn't bet my aviation company on any "hoped" ideas.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7086
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:59 am

Mi26 wrote:
It seems they plan to use Aluminium–air batteries in the Business Jet Version, so if successful they will be very capable with excellent range.
From Wikipedia,
Aluminium as a "fuel" for vehicles has been studied by Yang and Knickle. They concluded:
The Al/air battery system can generate enough energy and power for driving ranges and acceleration similar to gasoline-powered cars...the cost of aluminium as an anode can be as low as US$ 1.1/kg as long as the reaction product is recycled. The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected), comparable to that of internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEs) (13%). The designed battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of the battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected). Al/air EVs life-cycle analysis was conducted and compared to lead/acid and nickel metal hydride (NiMH) EVs. Only the Al/air EVs can be projected to have a travel range comparable to ICEs. From this analysis, Al/air EVs are the most promising candidates compared to ICEs in terms of travel range, purchase price, fuel cost, and life-cycle cost.

To those who imagine that Al-air batteries are just another sort of future rechargeable battery.....

Al-air battery is considered a "primary battery", meaning non-rechargeable. It can be sort of recharged by what they call "mechanical recharge". That means that new aluminum anodes are installed after cleaning inside, and new electrolyte is filled.

It has an awfully low "shelf life". Normally the electrolyte will be stored in a separate tank and filled into the battery when it has to be used.

When the electrolyte has been filled, then a separate battery of another type will be needed to start the air blower to "start" Al-air battery.

Energy density is very good, but power density is rather poor compared to other battery types. If for instance a 500 HP engine shall be powered, then a battery of at least 4-5,000 lb will be needed.

As it looks today Al-air batteries have potential as infrequently used emergency power sources, and for certain very specialized military applications. When not started it has in principle unlimited shelf life with no maintenance needed. Energy density is very high, and it contains no environmentally really bad materials.

Al-air battery is no new technology, it is rather one of many ages old battery technologies which never have been developed into commercially viable products due to various problems. A step-change in technology is needed if it shall become a viable competitor to Li-Ion in vehicles such as cars or aircraft.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:52 am

mham001 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Don’t let Tesla touch the batteries and it should be fine.


A rather ignorant comment. No other company on earth has as much experience successfully managing battery systems. If you could point to Tesla batteries failing, or igniting while in use, you might have a point. But you can't.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.busine ... ire-2019-4

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thever ... -model-s-x

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.c ... gency.html
 
planewasted
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:15 am

SierraPacific wrote:
Wait am I reading that they still need 500 million dollars to start producing aircraft for customers?

If so, I don't see this ending with this airplane in service anywhere.


That's about 1.5 % of the 787 program cost (32 billion).
 
Mi26
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:17 am

Just wanted to agree with prebennorholm that while indeed "a step-change in technology is needed", it does appear that many research facilities are trying to develop the Al-air Batteries to allow them to be used in Aircraft and Vehicles. This site, while very technical, outlines the work being done to improve the technology - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 571730081X
Although I do not comprehend most of the concepts outlined in the article, it does appear that many perceive the Al-air battery might just be a workable option.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2252
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:04 pm

Okie wrote:
Running costs will be about $200 per flight hour versus $1,000 for a turboprop, though the model will be slower than some conventional craft


So if we are talking a 9 seat at $200 per flight hour Alice and a 70+ seat ATR72 at $1000 per flight hour.
I am thinking still behind the cost curve per passenger.


Okie

It would rock the GA market though. Especially, that segment is mostly rentals. Anyone would love paying $200/hr for flying 9 peeps over the city and not polluting the environment.

There's another startup, funded by Jetblue and Boeing www.zunum.aero . They are making a similar aircraft. Check out their website for use cases
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:46 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
mham001 wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Don’t let Tesla touch the batteries and it should be fine.


A rather ignorant comment. No other company on earth has as much experience successfully managing battery systems. If you could point to Tesla batteries failing, or igniting while in use, you might have a point. But you can't.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.busine ... ire-2019-4

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thever ... -model-s-x

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.c ... gency.html


Like I said, there have been no fires while the vehicles were in use with somewhere around 10 BILLION miles driven. Charging is the time of most risk but that isn't happening while flying.
 
M564038
Posts: 440
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Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Yes, extremely ignorant comment about Tesla batteries. EV fires are at 1/8 of Dinosaur cars.

Do contemplate the fact that aircraft currently fly by lighting extremely powerfull and intense fires underneath wings carrying tens of tons of flamable fuel.
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:20 pm

planecane wrote:
Has anyone addressed the minor problem with lithium ion batteries losing capacity over time? In an airplane that means losing payload range. If I recall there was a study done on Tesla's where they lost 5% or more of their capacity after 100k miles. If batteries need to be replaced every few years to maintain acceptable range, it is going to make electric planes very expensive to maintain and not very environmentally friendly when considering production and disposal of the batteries.


Remember that batteries aren't necessarily disposed at the end of their lifetime. Much of the cost of batteries comes from the materials inside, and those materials are not destroyed through use. Much of the material in an end-of-life battery can be reprocessed to make new batteries. Lithium is cheap enough right now that it's usually hard to make the economic case to reprocess the material in small cell phone batteries and such, given the cost of transportation and collection, though the other metals are valuable enough. But aircraft battery packs would have huge collections of the stuff, which could make it economic. Different chemistries would have different value propositions for reprocessing too.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2278
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:35 pm

planecane wrote:
Has anyone addressed the minor problem with lithium ion batteries losing capacity over time? In an airplane that means losing payload range. If I recall there was a study done on Tesla's where they lost 5% or more of their capacity after 100k miles. If batteries need to be replaced every few years to maintain acceptable range, it is going to make electric planes very expensive to maintain and not very environmentally friendly when considering production and disposal of the batteries.

Is a 5% reduction in range so unacceptable? That's equates to a reduction from say 310 miles down to 295 miles. I would continue to use such cells for many more years, and if I had a particular sector that required the full 310 miles range, I would make sure that the youngest a/c in the fleet was assigned to it. Sorted. :bigthumbsup:

mham001 wrote:
Tesla data of older 18650s shows that the rate of decline slows after 50,000 miles and 5%. They have also announced they believe they have a battery that will last (70%?) 1,000,000 miles, probably introduced in a few months (not that I am saying they should or will use Tesla/Panasonic batteries). How that mileage translates to air travel I don't know...
We can take an educated guess. A typical Tesla owner will average 40 mph, so 50k miles = 1250 running hours.
The Eviation Alice has a projected cruise speed of 300mph, so 375,000 miles, or almost 600 flights at full range, maybe 1150 shorter sectors.
Ok, so they aren't stellar figures but...
1) As queried above, the Alice is still perfectly operational with older cells, providing you do not need the last 5% range.
2) There will be a ready market for previously owned "sub-standard" (95% capacity) cells in slightly less critical situations, such as my neighbors 8 year old Tesla.....
Again, faced with the option of a huge replacement cost, or scrapping the car, or a cheaper solution that gives a reduced range, it's a no-brainer.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7086
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:07 am

mham001 wrote:
Tesla data of older 18650s shows that the rate of decline slows after 50,000 miles and 5%. They have also announced they believe they have a battery that will last (70%?) 1,000,000 miles, probably introduced in a few months (not that I am saying they should or will use Tesla/Panasonic batteries). How that mileage translates to air travel I don't know and that concern can be handled by simply having enough batteries....

Li-Ion battery life time is mostly dependent on how they are used. What dramatically degrades life time are:
- fast charging
- high power output
- operation at colder or warmer than optimal temperature
- and long time storage at high or low charging state (keep it between 20% and 80% for storage).

Unfortunately most of the factors, which degrade Li-Ion batteries fast, are inconvenient for aircraft use.

A friend of mine has a Mercedes-Benz EV which is always slow charged in his garage. It has a button to be pressed if it shall be charged 100%. When he doesn't press that button, then it charges to 80%, and the battery will last considerably longer. When he needs more than 80%, then he will likely also need 110% or more, then he walks three yards more and picks his diesel Merc instead. The EV also has multiple driving modes. When programmed to "Eco mode", then it doesn't go fast, and acceleration power is limited to about 50%. That also helps greatly to prolong battery cycle life, and still plenty for town driving.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
M564038
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Orders for new electric airliner now top 150

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:39 pm

The world’s EV-fleet is at millions of cars now.
Battery management has done wonders to the lifespan of these batteries, and degradation in modern EVs are extremely low.

Now, we won’t see intercontinental passenger flights with today’s battery chemistries, but development doesn’t stop, and with every car manufacturer, energy company, shipping, aircraft manufacturer going all in on battery research, manufacturing, management and recycling over the coming years, the future of fully electrified transportation looks certain. It’s just a question of time, and not a whole lot of it.

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