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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:29 pm

deltaffindfw wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


But at the scale of DFW, the idea of optimizing for O&D traffic was absurd even in the late 1960's when it was designed. The D-FW area of 1974 had nowhere near today's population to support O&D. What were they thinking when they put no provision for centralized security checkpoints in their designs. Yes security screenings were not required till 1973, but skyjackings were already a problem in the 1960's when it was designed. Security screening was already being talked about.


What were they thinking? In 1974, AA was basically nothing at DFW compared to today. Braniff was in 2W (B), DL in 4E (E) and AA (and Eastern) 3E (C). Terminal 2E (A) was a mix of carriers. They most likely had a security checkpoint right next to their check in counters. There was no need for a centralized checkpoint, since all connections for each airline were made in one terminal. In fact, DL has a hub of over 250 flights at its peak - only in Terminal E.


DFW was built as big as it was to handle all the commercial aviation needs for the D-FW Metroplex for at least 100 years. Even in 1974 the gates at either end of a single terminal were thousands of feet apart.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:45 pm

Antarius wrote:
Beechtobus wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I disagree. DFW used to work better for O&D, but now it is so easy to connect. What other major hub allows you to go from any gate to any gate in 10 minutes?


10 min?? Uh, no. From say E38 to B39, 20-25 min may be possible if you’re running.


It isn't that far. B1 - B3 are the furthest walk and even then, I can't see (and haven't experienced) 25 minute transfers.

Broader point is, DFW isn't the sexiest airport out there, but it is really easy to get around.


Oh don’t get me wrong, DFW does it’s o&d and it’s connection job very very well. Mostly with the help of Skylink, it’s probably the best connecting Airport of the top 10 busiest in the US. I’d even put it up against DEN and ATL. I’m merely saying 10 min between any 2 gates is not going to happen. Maybe 20 min if you’re running, but realistically 25-30 I’d you’re grandma and grandpa Mildred and Vern connecting in from Des Moines to see the grand kids in Tucson.
 
USAirKid
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:14 am

vadodara wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


I disagree. DFW used to work better for O&D, but now it is so easy to connect. What other major hub allows you to go from any gate to any gate in 10 minutes?


I think it is being referred from airline ops perspective not pax transfer. The people mover is extremely efficient; only AA baggage transfer is a challenge.

The baggage transfer assumes all bags get sorted at a central location. Using AI/Blockchain they could come up with a distributed system.


I can see baggage transfer being a challenge, but I have a hard time figuring out how AI and Blockchain would make it any better. Okay, maybe "AI" in the sense of some smarter software that helps bags get loaded and unloaded in a better order, but that's more just "software" and not a neural net, which is generally what "AI refers to. However, Blockchain won't do anything to help. Thats a technology where you have different organizations that don't trust each other sharing a database. Since AA is mostly transferring the bags to AA, they're working off the same database.
 
itchief
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:56 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
I always felt a bit sorry for folks who live there and have to use DFW as their primary airport.


DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


But at the scale of DFW, the idea of optimizing for O&D traffic was absurd even in the late 1960's when it was designed. The D-FW area of 1974 had nowhere near today's population to support O&D. What were they thinking when they put no provision for centralized security checkpoints in their designs. Yes security screenings were not required till 1973, but skyjackings were already a problem in the 1960's when it was designed. Security screening was already being talked about.


You might want to rethink the question about Security screening in 1974. You could walk up to any gate without a ticket back then.
 
Antarius
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:27 am

USAirKid wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Antarius wrote:

I disagree. DFW used to work better for O&D, but now it is so easy to connect. What other major hub allows you to go from any gate to any gate in 10 minutes?


I think it is being referred from airline ops perspective not pax transfer. The people mover is extremely efficient; only AA baggage transfer is a challenge.

The baggage transfer assumes all bags get sorted at a central location. Using AI/Blockchain they could come up with a distributed system.


I can see baggage transfer being a challenge, but I have a hard time figuring out how AI and Blockchain would make it any better. Okay, maybe "AI" in the sense of some smarter software that helps bags get loaded and unloaded in a better order, but that's more just "software" and not a neural net, which is generally what "AI refers to. However, Blockchain won't do anything to help. Thats a technology where you have different organizations that don't trust each other sharing a database. Since AA is mostly transferring the bags to AA, they're working off the same database.


AA's IT systems also can't instantly authorize and ticket tickets still. They also issue paper vouchers that have to be mailed in.

AI rollout is but a pipe dream.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:18 am

itchief wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


But at the scale of DFW, the idea of optimizing for O&D traffic was absurd even in the late 1960's when it was designed. The D-FW area of 1974 had nowhere near today's population to support O&D. What were they thinking when they put no provision for centralized security checkpoints in their designs. Yes security screenings were not required till 1973, but skyjackings were already a problem in the 1960's when it was designed. Security screening was already being talked about.


You might want to rethink the question about Security screening in 1974. You could walk up to any gate without a ticket back then.


I know that; I was there. I remember being screened just before boarding BN flights. I also remember seeing news accounts of skyjackings well before the opening of DFW. There was already talk of requiring screening of passengers for weapons. The airlines didn't want it, because the were concerned about it decrease long demand for short flights. It wasn't till the skyjackings of a Southern Airways DC-9 in November 1972 that screening was implemented. It was a particularly violent skyjacking in which a pilot was shot and the skyjackers threatened to crash the plane into the nuclear isotope separation plant at Oak Ridge Tennessee. The requirement for screening came before DFW opened, but it's not as if people weren't thinking about it before 1973.
 
vadodara
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:53 pm

USAirKid wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Antarius wrote:

I disagree. DFW used to work better for O&D, but now it is so easy to connect. What other major hub allows you to go from any gate to any gate in 10 minutes?


I think it is being referred from airline ops perspective not pax transfer. The people mover is extremely efficient; only AA baggage transfer is a challenge.

The baggage transfer assumes all bags get sorted at a central location. Using AI/Blockchain they could come up with a distributed system.


I can see baggage transfer being a challenge, but I have a hard time figuring out how AI and Blockchain would make it any better. Okay, maybe "AI" in the sense of some smarter software that helps bags get loaded and unloaded in a better order, but that's more just "software" and not a neural net, which is generally what "AI refers to. However, Blockchain won't do anything to help. Thats a technology where you have different organizations that don't trust each other sharing a database. Since AA is mostly transferring the bags to AA, they're working off the same database.


My point was regarding the need to take all bags at a central facility for sorting to be sent to a respective spoke:
A) blockchain is a fancy tracker that can extinguish the contract I.e. transfer of a bag
B) AI is to determine the best path to the next terminal/gate

From cost perspective upgrading IT systems would be cheaper then demolition of entire terminals
 
vadodara
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:55 pm

Antarius wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
vadodara wrote:

I think it is being referred from airline ops perspective not pax transfer. The people mover is extremely efficient; only AA baggage transfer is a challenge.

The baggage transfer assumes all bags get sorted at a central location. Using AI/Blockchain they could come up with a distributed system.


I can see baggage transfer being a challenge, but I have a hard time figuring out how AI and Blockchain would make it any better. Okay, maybe "AI" in the sense of some smarter software that helps bags get loaded and unloaded in a better order, but that's more just "software" and not a neural net, which is generally what "AI refers to. However, Blockchain won't do anything to help. Thats a technology where you have different organizations that don't trust each other sharing a database. Since AA is mostly transferring the bags to AA, they're working off the same database.


AA's IT systems also can't instantly authorize and ticket tickets still. They also issue paper vouchers that have to be mailed in.

AI rollout is but a pipe dream.


Lot of issues with AA are a problem! However costs of demolition will outweigh any costs of upgrading.
 
aaway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:17 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
I always felt a bit sorry for folks who live there and have to use DFW as their primary airport.


DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


But at the scale of DFW, the idea of optimizing for O&D traffic was absurd even in the late 1960's when it was designed. The D-FW area of 1974 had nowhere near today's population to support O&D. What were they thinking when they put no provision for centralized security checkpoints in their designs. Yes security screenings were not required till 1973, but skyjackings were already a problem in the 1960's when it was designed. Security screening was already being talked about.


I disagree moderately. On one hand, the designers couldn't have foreseen deregulation & subsequent effect(s). The DFW of '74 was scaled with a slightly higher active gate count than had been in use at Love Field prior to the transfer of operations. Terminal 2W (the Braniff terminal) was the only full 'half-circle' terminal. The others (2E/3E/4E) had space to expand when deemed necessary.

W/R/T security screening - by the time DFW was (unofficially) ready for operations (Fall '73), the screening mandate had yet to be codified into federal regulation.. Formal security mandates for screening were codified (IIRC) in Fall '74. That was some two years after various Congressional / F.A.A. / airline industry committees were formed to address the security / hijacking issue. Yes, some airlines and, in particular, airports (depending on security classification) undertook voluntary measures - at great expense - to address the security issue.

You're right when asserting that the issue was an issue when construction began. However, no one foresaw (or could foresee, for that matter) the trajectory in the level of gravity associated with the hijacking threat. Otherwise, you have either (a) wasted unused space, or (b) expensive design and construction change orders.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:44 am

I lived in the DFW area at the time, and I remember this well. Robert Crandall was keenly aware of the threat inherent in vacating any existing terminal to occupy a new one in the midst of Delta’s DFW growth, and also due to the possibility that a third airline would come in and hub DFW. He was very outspoken about the need to either immediately tear down an existing terminal once AA vacated it, or even repurposing it (someone suggested turning them into a shopping mall back then).
 
aaway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:40 am

A couple of edits to my original post:
-The Nixon administration created the Task Force on Deterrence of Air Piracy in early '69.
-FAA issued an emergency order in late '72 (to be effective Jan' 73) that required screening of passengers and carry-on baggage. There were other ramifications of the order. However, a shortage of metal detectors delayed the full implementation of the central checkpoint concept. Physical searches of bags and/or persons was still common practice going into '74.
-Nixon signed into law on August 5th 1974 the Antihijacking Act of 1974. By that time, screening with metal detectors was established at all what now are known as Category X airports.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
texl1649
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:46 am

I didn’t see it linked above but they are finally set to spend 3.5 billion to renovate C and build F, as announced this spring. I had hoped C would just be torn down but I guess they figured the asbestos can be remediate easier than just scrapping the whole thing.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/DF ... 69221.html
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:25 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
I lived in the DFW area at the time, and I remember this well. Robert Crandall was keenly aware of the threat inherent in vacating any existing terminal to occupy a new one in the midst of Delta’s DFW growth, and also due to the possibility that a third airline would come in and hub DFW. He was very outspoken about the need to either immediately tear down an existing terminal once AA vacated it, or even repurposing it (someone suggested turning them into a shopping mall back then).


As if the terminals and the land they occupied were the property of AA. DFW was built on such a large scale precisely to prevent future expansion from being compromised due to no available land. Crandall was trying to develop DFW as a fortress hub but didn't have the constraints that airports like JFK, ORD, LAX, or SFO had to prevent entry of competitors.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:29 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
I lived in the DFW area at the time, and I remember this well. Robert Crandall was keenly aware of the threat inherent in vacating any existing terminal to occupy a new one in the midst of Delta’s DFW growth, and also due to the possibility that a third airline would come in and hub DFW. He was very outspoken about the need to either immediately tear down an existing terminal once AA vacated it, or even repurposing it (someone suggested turning them into a shopping mall back then).


As if the terminals and the land they occupied were the property of AA. DFW was built on such a large scale precisely to prevent future expansion from being compromised due to no available land. Crandall was trying to develop DFW as a fortress hub but didn't have the constraints that airports like JFK, ORD, LAX, or SFO had to prevent entry of competitors.


Your rant aside, Crandall didn’t just TRY to build DFW as a fortress hub, he DID build DFW as a fortress hub to the exclusion of competitors. I have no doubt that if the DFW Master Plan had evolved the way Crandall envisioned it, he would have been successful in getting the existing terminals torn down to avoid the potential of another competitor coming in and creating a hub,
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:48 pm

Does anyone have a source for the asbestos rumor in Terminal C that keeps surfacing? Typically buildings built in this time frame did not include asbestos ... and it would make even less sense that this would only be applicable in Terminal C.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:27 pm

Very interesting topic. I remember this proposal from the time, but don't remember the artwork. I've flown into DFW a few times, mostly as O & D, and once to connect. If nothing else, DFW now has possibly the ugliest terminal complex in the world, with a giant child's-toy train system plopped on top of the already-ugly concrete loop buildings. At least you get great views from the train.

I have the impression that the die was kind of cast by the late 1980's. A really significant increase in efficiency would have required building a row of ATL-style perpendicular concourses accessible to both runway complexes. That layout would have required severing the spine road and putting a headhouse at one end. Presumably that would have been the south end, because 183 is the most direct access to both Dallas and Fort Worth downtowns from DFW. Metroplex experts can correct me if wrong, but I have the impression that by the late 1980's there was significant population north of the airport, and there may have been resistance to closing north access.

The fact that apparently that option wasn't considered, and only options that kept the spine road were, likely sealed the fate of reconfiguration. How much more efficiency would you get from giant runway-parallel concourses, each accessible directly only to its own runway complex, that would no doubt have required DTW McNamara-style trains anyway? AA and DL were already built up in existing buildings. Skylink probably was a cheaper and less disruptive option.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:09 am

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
Does anyone have a source for the asbestos rumor in Terminal C that keeps surfacing? Typically buildings built in this time frame did not include asbestos ... and it would make even less sense that this would only be applicable in Terminal C.

Someone on this site claimed recently that they had spoken with DFW officials who had dispelled the asbestos rumors, but I can't recall who or in which thread. I would agree with your analysis that it would be odd if only C had asbestos issues and the rest did not.

I'll ask the question that I've asked since the beginning of the original TRIP project... Are they going to redo the High-C trailer park, or not??? :D
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:54 am

UPDATE:

I have uploaded Part 1 of full feature on the never built Westside Terminal, which would have been the new home of AA. Part 1 deals with why the planners thought a radical change to DFW's layout was necessary. You can find it here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html

The second and final part, to be launched next week, will feature many fantastic artist's impressions of the proposed terminal and satellite pier, which could be lengthened to well over a mile long!
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:23 pm

I'm addicted to your airport stories! Keep up the GREAT work!
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:20 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
I'm addicted to your airport stories! Keep up the GREAT work!


Hi PANAMsterdam, I'm happy to hear you enjoy my work! Btw, I'm working on an article on AMS featuring some very rare images. Coming soon!
 
DFW17L
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:55 pm

Awesome article, Max. I found the information excellent and informative. At the risk of being pedantic, I believe there is a small edit needed. “For the time being, Delta could still grow comfortably at its terminal 4E (now C)”, should state, “now E”.

Looking forward to Part 2.

Oprecht.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:15 pm

DFW17L wrote:
Awesome article, Max. I found the information excellent and informative. At the risk of being pedantic, I believe there is a small edit needed. “For the time being, Delta could still grow comfortably at its terminal 4E (now C)”, should state, “now E”.

Looking forward to Part 2.

Oprecht.


Hi thanks, good catch! I made the edit.

Btw, I noticed that many people are still headed to the old blogpost on the DFW rebuild. It's because that link is still mentioned at the top of the thread. So just to repeat, Part 1 of the full story can now be found here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
 
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william
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:35 pm

airporthistory wrote:
DFW17L wrote:
Awesome article, Max. I found the information excellent and informative. At the risk of being pedantic, I believe there is a small edit needed. “For the time being, Delta could still grow comfortably at its terminal 4E (now C)”, should state, “now E”.

Looking forward to Part 2.

Oprecht.


Hi thanks, good catch! I made the edit.

Btw, I noticed that many people are still headed to the old blogpost on the DFW rebuild. It's because that link is still mentioned at the top of the thread. So just to repeat, Part 1 of the full story can now be found here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html


Thanks for the trip down memory lane. AA would have moved to the west side but then CEO Crandall didn't want Delta moving into what is now Terminal C.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:52 pm

airporthistory wrote:
Btw, I noticed that many people are still headed to the old blogpost on the DFW rebuild. It's because that link is still mentioned at the top of the thread. So just to repeat, Part 1 of the full story can now be found here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html


william wrote:
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. AA would have moved to the west side but then CEO Crandall didn't want Delta moving into what is now Terminal C.


Happy you enjoyed the article. Next week's Part 2 has all the layouts and artist's impressions of the proposed terminal and satellite. It will be a super cool piece, even though I say so myself. ;-)

Btw, another important reason AA dropped the scheme was the cost.
 
DFW17L
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:50 pm

I’m thinking the cost of having underground structures was hugely expensive. Our soil here is clay and very expansive. Most residences use concrete slabs that float. There’s a reason why most streets are made from thick, reinforced concrete. And why Skylink APM is elevated and not underground.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:29 pm

DFW17L wrote:
I’m thinking the cost of having underground structures was hugely expensive. Our soil here is clay and very expansive. Most residences use concrete slabs that float. There’s a reason why most streets are made from thick, reinforced concrete. And why Skylink APM is elevated and not underground.


Good point. I was not alware of the sil condition there. I have all the cost calculations for the project. I will include some interesting numbers in Part 2.

Again, I see most people head toward the old blogpost from months ago. The updated full feature can now be found here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
 
texdravid
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:33 pm

I think a lot of people are off base here. With DFW’s renovations and constant improvements, connecting between different terminals and the same terminal is so easy and it’s the easiest experience in America period.

For those that want to complain, there are areas of Boston, LAX where you have to walk outside and recheck luggage for crying out loud. ATL is super crowded and ORD is the airport with rundown terminals. United’s tired mid 1980s look is like a 3rd world airport.

As for those that say that if DFW would have only changed to a different terminal shape in the 1980’s they would be the busiest airport in the world?

It has to do with location and location. ATL is in the perfect
place for connections and is closer to the population centers and Europe, etc.

So in my mind, DFW is a great connection airport and has great food and quick TSA lines and people need to give it more credit.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
DFW17L
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:40 pm

No argument from me...I’m glad it is my home airport.
 
Sooner787
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:36 pm

FWIW.... even though finger construction has started between Terminal D and future Terminal F ,
local news report suggesting the DFW Airport board is reconsidering it's options/ timetable for
beginning construction of Terminal F. Smart move, if AA goes belly up or gets taken over by
a rival airline, the DFW landscape could look drastically different in 12-24 months
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:30 pm

airporthistory wrote:
UPDATE:

I have uploaded Part 1 of full feature on the never built Westside Terminal, which would have been the new home of AA. Part 1 deals with why the planners thought a radical change to DFW's layout was necessary. You can find it here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html

The second and final part, to be launched next week, will feature many fantastic artist's impressions of the proposed terminal and satellite pier, which could be lengthened to well over a mile long!


UPDATE

Hi folks, Part 2 on the spectacular, long forgotten plan to completely rebuild DFW is now online. This part dives into the details of the plan and features many great images and layouts.

You can read it here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html
 
deltaffindfw
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:07 pm

Amazing!! Another interesting part is the sterile international mezzanine. I wonder if that could have pushed the US gov't to allow intl to intl transit passengers, since all the international flights would be in the same area and boarding entry to each gate separated from the non-sterile levels below.
 
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william
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:09 pm

Wow Airport History, thank you, thank you, thank you. I remember this time well. Its first time I have seen artist renderings. Well done.

The article states it would have taken 15 minutes to walk the satellite pier, the same amount of time to walk from Terminal A gate A6 (why no gate 1A?) to Terminal C39. Have done it many times
 
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DL747400
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:31 pm

Great job! Part 2 is even better than Part 1. Fantastic article overall. Great illustrations of what might have been. I stand by my belief that this was a tremendous missed opportunity for both DFW and for American Airlines. The size, scope and Texas-sized presence of this project would have fit quite well and naturally into the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex and would have represented North Texas quite well. Had this been built, American would still be benefiting today from the increased efficiency that this complex would have brought to their DFW operations.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:54 pm

Happy you enjoyed it! It was fun to put together as well!

Sadly, most people are still heading to the old, short blog post from five months ago, because that's the link posted at the top of this thread!

Just to repeat, the full articles are now here:

Part 1: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
Part 2: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:21 pm

airporthistory wrote:
Happy you enjoyed it! It was fun to put together as well!

Sadly, most people are still heading to the old, short blog post from five months ago, because that's the link posted at the top of this thread!

Just to repeat, the full articles are now here:

Part 1: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
Part 2: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html

Your website really is fascinating and amazing. Thank you!
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:33 pm

I have been waiting with anticipation for Part II and it didn't disappoint. Thank you for your hard work and thoughtfulness in these articles!
One slight correction at the end - AA and Eagle are actually in all 5 terminals now (at least they were prior to the Covid19 related reductions).
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:39 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
I have been waiting with anticipation for Part II and it didn't disappoint. Thank you for your hard work and thoughtfulness in these articles!
One slight correction at the end - AA and Eagle are actually in all 5 terminals now (at least they were prior to the Covid19 related reductions).


Thank you, I made the correction!

Again, the articles on the proposed DFW rebuild can be found here:

Part 1: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
Part 2: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html
 
ScottB
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:53 pm

deltaffindfw wrote:
Amazing!! Another interesting part is the sterile international mezzanine. I wonder if that could have pushed the US gov't to allow intl to intl transit passengers, since all the international flights would be in the same area and boarding entry to each gate separated from the non-sterile levels below.


International-to-international transit (without being required to temporarily enter the U.S.) was permitted at a number of airports (I am fairly certain it was possible at both LAX and MIA) in the past. That got shut down after 9/11/2001 as the Federal government became concerned about the ramifications of allowing passengers from certain countries to board aircraft bound to the U.S. without undergoing the vetting required for a visa -- both due to threats to aircraft and potential applicants for asylum.
 
DFW17L
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:30 pm

Thanks, Max; the diagrams and renderings are fantastic. It's easy for us to consider what may have been and dwell on the possible benefits. However, as you rightly point out, the existing configuration is outstanding and demonstrates how important transportation infrastructure is to a region's vitality and quality of life. I'm glad we have regional leadership that focuses on infrastructure, and doesn't shrink away from the responsibilities and necessities that drives growth in North Texas.
 
N649DL
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:06 pm

I actually like the older terminal configuration of DFW (Design is much like a much bigger MCI). The extremely short walk off the gate and straight out of a door to claim your bag and right to the curb is a unique experience. The International terminal and Skylink make up for the dated feel of the older terminals as well.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:28 pm

N649DL wrote:
I actually like the older terminal configuration of DFW (Design is much like a much bigger MCI). The extremely short walk off the gate and straight out of a door to claim your bag and right to the curb is a unique experience. The International terminal and Skylink make up for the dated feel of the older terminals as well.


If you start or end your journey in DFW, the drive-to-the-gate layout is ideal. If you change flights at DFW, which most people do, the Westside Terminal would likely have been a better experience.
 
DFW17L
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:41 pm

I think the comparison with MCI ends at the door. As soon as you enter, the security setup is beyond horrific.
 
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Revelation
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:50 pm

Great article! Perhaps a typo in the last photo caption: "Terminal F will be constructed in the empty space above Terminal F".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:03 am

Revelation wrote:
Great article! Perhaps a typo in the last photo caption: "Terminal F will be constructed in the empty space above Terminal F".


Damn, I hate it when that happens! Thanks for pointing that out! I made the correction.

As many people are still following the original link to the old blog post at the top of the thread, I want to again remind people that the full feature on the never built Westside Terminal can be found here:

Part 1: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
Part 2: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:54 am

Great piece. Very intereting and I had no idea, only moving to the Metroplex in 2009.

It reminds me in those renderings of a mix of Denver, Detroit, and Atlanta. Shades of Orlando too in one pic **shudders**. As an O&D passenger I think I prefer what we've got, but clearly the inefficiency of the multiple terminals has been a burr in American's saddle for decades.
 
Galore
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:59 pm

Thanks for putting this together. One rendering of the retail area looks like it was inspired by Northpark mall.

As a DFW resident, I’m glad that they didn’t go through with this design. For me, the existing design makes this huge airport appear conveniently small, because I almost never have to transfer between terminals so this is more like a collection of 5 small airports than one large one. This is by far the best feature of DFW for me. I’ve had 10 minutes plane-to-car times from international arrivals (granted, that’s a best case if I get off before most passengers and have only carry-on. If it takes long, it’s always due to ICE) and less for domestic arrivals. Is there any comparably big airport where this is possible? I think if one isn’t transferring, DFW is close to perfect.

But even transfers are super efficient. For the rare times when I need to transfer between terminals when the return flight is moved to another terminal, the train is very quick.

I prefer the DFW setup over airports with linear terminals. Like FRA. That has got to be the worst example (and I have a 70% chance of a bus ride to the plane, something I never had at DFW).
 
pezzy669
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:57 pm

I have connected a number of times through DFW on AA - both while it still had the older junky AA TrAAin and with the Skylink. With the TrAAin it could be a process to change terminals - the new train made that much easier.

One thing they could improve is the rental car experience - both times arriving I ended up having to wait for the 2nd or 3rd rental car bus because the first ones were full. Not to mention its a LONG ride to the rental car center - they need to build some type of light rail automated people mover for this.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:05 pm

DFW17L wrote:
I think the comparison with MCI ends at the door. As soon as you enter, the security setup is beyond horrific.

So true. I think the biggest difference is that the DFW terminals are wider than MCI, allowing for DFW to have two complete semi-circles, one sterile and one not.

Galore wrote:
I prefer the DFW setup over airports with linear terminals. Like FRA. That has got to be the worst example (and I have a 70% chance of a bus ride to the plane, something I never had at DFW).


It is a huge plus that we have no busing at DFW. That hasn't always been the case though. There was the old "A2" terminal for Eagle (now the GA/Corporate Aviation terminal). The terminal itself was OK, but the bus situation was horrible.
Also - in the DL hub days, when Big Sky had a decent size presence in E around 2001, I think they had bus gates as well as there wasn't room in the E satellite.
 
Jahaj1
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:47 am

william wrote:
Wow Airport History, thank you, thank you, thank you. I remember this time well. Its first time I have seen artist renderings. Well done.

The article states it would have taken 15 minutes to walk the satellite pier, the same amount of time to walk from Terminal A gate A6 (why no gate 1A?) to Terminal C39. Have done it many times


Great read!

Yeah one thing I've always wondered is why are the gates not numbered sequentially? If it's because they are planning to fit more gates in where would those go?
 
airlineAZ
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:07 pm

Addicted to these airport stories too! Enjoy DFW as an airport but it seems like this layout would have been a whole lot better for transfer passengers. Up to 100 gates too...I wonder if that would have been sufficient in the end.

airporthistory wrote:
airporthistory wrote:
UPDATE:

I have uploaded Part 1 of full feature on the never built Westside Terminal, which would have been the new home of AA. Part 1 deals with why the planners thought a radical change to DFW's layout was necessary. You can find it here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html

The second and final part, to be launched next week, will feature many fantastic artist's impressions of the proposed terminal and satellite pier, which could be lengthened to well over a mile long!


UPDATE

Hi folks, Part 2 on the spectacular, long forgotten plan to completely rebuild DFW is now online. This part dives into the details of the plan and features many great images and layouts.

You can read it here: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html

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