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deltaffindfw
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:13 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
It is a huge plus that we have no busing at DFW. That hasn't always been the case though. There was the old "A2" terminal for Eagle (now the GA/Corporate Aviation terminal). The terminal itself was OK, but the bus situation was horrible.
Also - in the DL hub days, when Big Sky had a decent size presence in E around 2001, I think they had bus gates as well as there wasn't room in the E satellite.


I remember that DL used the hardstands on the NE corner of Terminal E (opposite of the satellite) for some E-120 ops. You would take a bus from somewhere around E5, I think.
 
N649DL
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:54 pm

airporthistory wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I actually like the older terminal configuration of DFW (Design is much like a much bigger MCI). The extremely short walk off the gate and straight out of a door to claim your bag and right to the curb is a unique experience. The International terminal and Skylink make up for the dated feel of the older terminals as well.


If you start or end your journey in DFW, the drive-to-the-gate layout is ideal. If you change flights at DFW, which most people do, the Westside Terminal would likely have been a better experience.


There was also that other interesting terminal where DL used to be which IIRC had an underground walkway to get there from the terminals and it was underground. DL moved it's operations since then, this was about 5 years ago since I was there. Also the SkyClub was underground which was pretty cool. IDK if that terminal is there anymore, it might be vacant or torn down since then.
 
deltaffindfw
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:40 pm

N649DL wrote:
airporthistory wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I actually like the older terminal configuration of DFW (Design is much like a much bigger MCI). The extremely short walk off the gate and straight out of a door to claim your bag and right to the curb is a unique experience. The International terminal and Skylink make up for the dated feel of the older terminals as well.


If you start or end your journey in DFW, the drive-to-the-gate layout is ideal. If you change flights at DFW, which most people do, the Westside Terminal would likely have been a better experience.


There was also that other interesting terminal where DL used to be which IIRC had an underground walkway to get there from the terminals and it was underground. DL moved it's operations since then, this was about 5 years ago since I was there. Also the SkyClub was underground which was pretty cool. IDK if that terminal is there anymore, it might be vacant or torn down since then.


That is the E Satellite, which is still there. That is where AA has all their barbie jets. Also, the Skyclub was only at the ramp level during the reno of the normal E terminal. When DL had the hub at DFW, the Crown Room in Satellite E was actually on the concourse level across from the escalators. Where the temp Sky Club/United Club and current Admirals Club was/is on the ramp level was the ASA break room back in the day.
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:01 pm

airlineAZ wrote:
Addicted to these airport stories too! Enjoy DFW as an airport but it seems like this layout would have been a whole lot better for transfer passengers. Up to 100 gates too...I wonder if that would have been sufficient in the end.


Good question, maybe some of the local DFW experts here know how many gates AA and American Eagle currently use?

The 100 gates to the satellite in the full build out was based on a fleet consisting of 60% wide-body aircraft (btw, is there anyone here who knows what the heck that assumption was based on??) and gates could be easily moved and added as needed. It would be interesting to see how many stands could be fitted based on AA's actual fleet composition.

Also, there was a platform west of the Westside terminal (see Part 2 of the article) accommodating 24 commuter aircraft stands. However, from the site plans shown in the article it seems like that area could fit many more stands. You could even build a second smaller satellite there. Of course, that would have made the whole thing very complex again.

As many people here are still following the link to the original blog post mentioned at the top of the thread, I just want to mention again that the full articles can be found here:

Part 1: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-1.html
Part 2: https://www.airporthistory.org/dfw-rebuild-2.html
 
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deltacto
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:40 pm

airporthistory wrote:
As many people here are still following the link to the original blog post mentioned at the top of the thread, I just want to mention again that the full articles can be found here:


Email the moderators .... in this case they may be willing to edit your original post
 
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airporthistory
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:46 pm

deltacto wrote:
airporthistory wrote:
As many people here are still following the link to the original blog post mentioned at the top of the thread, I just want to mention again that the full articles can be found here:


Email the moderators .... in this case they may be willing to edit your original post


That's a good idea! Thank you!
 
TXRoadMan
Posts: 55
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:21 pm

airporthistory wrote:
Good question, maybe some of the local DFW experts here know how many gates AA and American Eagle currently use?

I count 140 (A: 26 + B: 47 + C: 28 + D: 19 + E: 20). IIRC, that’s 81 or 82 mainline and the remainder AE.

That doesn’t include the CUTE gates in Low-D that AE uses for int’l inbounds or the new main terminal E gates they’re adding. And, I used the online DFW Airport map to count, so operational gates might be slightly different. I seem to recall that they can’t use every gate (ignoring the new (now old?) mainline gates) in B with 175s side-by-side, as an example.

Thanks so much for putting this together. It was a fascinating read!
 
N649DL
Posts: 884
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:13 pm

deltaffindfw wrote:
N649DL wrote:
airporthistory wrote:

If you start or end your journey in DFW, the drive-to-the-gate layout is ideal. If you change flights at DFW, which most people do, the Westside Terminal would likely have been a better experience.


There was also that other interesting terminal where DL used to be which IIRC had an underground walkway to get there from the terminals and it was underground. DL moved it's operations since then, this was about 5 years ago since I was there. Also the SkyClub was underground which was pretty cool. IDK if that terminal is there anymore, it might be vacant or torn down since then.


That is the E Satellite, which is still there. That is where AA has all their barbie jets. Also, the Skyclub was only at the ramp level during the reno of the normal E terminal. When DL had the hub at DFW, the Crown Room in Satellite E was actually on the concourse level across from the escalators. Where the temp Sky Club/United Club and current Admirals Club was/is on the ramp level was the ASA break room back in the day.


Last time I was DFW, they moved the SkyClub from where it was in E to the normal part of the concourse. This was as of 2018.
 
aaway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:46 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
I always felt a bit sorry for folks who live there and have to use DFW as their primary airport.
DFW works better as an O&D airport than as a connecting airport -- but it's not 1974 anymore, and O&D is not the primary purpose.


But at the scale of DFW, the idea of optimizing for O&D traffic was absurd even in the late 1960's when it was designed. The D-FW area of 1974 had nowhere near today's population to support O&D. What were they thinking when they put no provision for centralized security checkpoints in their designs. Yes security screenings were not required till 1973, but skyjackings were already a problem in the 1960's when it was designed. Security screening was already being talked about.


This discussion has been had before. A brief timeline of events regarding airport security is below. Between '70 & '74, airlines and/or airports assumed responsibility on an individualized basis by implementing screening at the gate. But those efforts were piecemeal and without a formal funding mechanism. As such, those costs were either being absorbed on the P & Ls of participating air carriers, or fiscal budgets of airport authorities.

-The Nixon administration created the Task Force on Deterrence of Air Piracy in early '69.
-FAA issued an emergency order in late '72 (to be effective Jan' 73) that required screening of passengers and carry-on baggage. There were other ramifications of the order. However, a shortage of metal detectors delayed the full implementation of the "centralized" (air quotes because the formal federal mandate moved screening from the gates) checkpoint concept. Physical searches of bags and/or persons was still common practice going into '74.
-Nixon signed into law on August 5th 1974 the Antihijacking Act of 1974. By that time, screening with metal detectors was established at all what now are known as Category X airports.

With regard to "centralized" (and my assumption here is you're referencing the large physical footprint that screening occupies in the current) checkpoints, the planning horizon at DFW could not (and did not) forecast an upswing in traffic, the creation of fortress hubs, and whatnot, resulting from deregulation. Sure, foment for action on that front began as early as '75. But the formal effort to pass legislation deregulating the industry didn't begin until '76.

With the planning having begun in the mid-60s', the models could not have envisioned such material changes to the operating environment. Yes, the hijacking phenomenon was documented well into the early 60s. However, lacking a formal mandate, there was no impetus to go beyond what was mandated at that time.
Last edited by aaway on Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
aaway
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:26 am

Mr. Groot, I just wanted to add my thanks & kudos for a very informative & detailed profile on never-built DFW.

I may be adding a bit of fuel to the fire here, so to speak. As a result of this thread, as well as the concurrent Braniff (Mk 1) bankruptcy thread, I was prompted to do a little informal research. I found an interesting Braniff history site. One of the posts there discussed Braniff's ill-fated Terminal 3W project. But, there was another nugget there that I had not been aware of:

Braniff Flying Colors Yes, indeed, this is the beginning construction on Braniff International's planned 2W/3W Connector building, which would have first been used for international departures and arrivals and continue in that capacity while also acting as the public walk-way to Braniff's new Terminal 3W, which is where Terminal D is located now. By 1989, Braniff International would have had three full horseshoe terminals including the 2W/3W Connector, Terminal 3W, Terminal 3W/4W Connector and Terminal 4W, which is where the new Terminal F is under construction today. All of these terminals would have continued to be connected to the remainder of the airport terminal with the current Airtrans but Braniff created Braniff Sky Shuttle, an overhead monorail to move passengers only between its planned new terminals. This exact system today is in operation at DFW but is dubbed SkyLink. However, because the original airline tenant agreement at DFW required that all airlines pay for each others terminal expansions, (emphasis here is mine) American Airlines decided that it wanted to leave the horseshoe design and build a bizarre spider-like concourse setup on the north end of the east side of the Terminal 2E, which is now Terminal A. This move basically mired Braniff's plans. DFW was not keen on leaving its original master plan and American wouldn't budge on its Spider Terminal. The Terminal 2W/3W Connector and Terminal 3W concrete pads were well under construction by the time this was canceled in the summer of 1981. Braniff had just made a required payment on the new facilities of $18 million USD in the summer of 1981 according to DFW Airport records but the planned(sic) was doomed and had Braniff had the opportunity to build these new structures the longtime Dallas-based carrier would have had the ability to further strengthen its premier DFW hub operation.

Spider Terminal??? First impression is that there wasn't (and isn't) much room to do much of anything on the north and east end of A (unless this was an early iteration of the 'stinger' concept). At second glance, I'm wondering if perhaps there was a location and directional error made here? I don't understand how the proposal -as described - would've interfered with Braniff's plans (unless it was the potential financial handicap due to the users agreements in place at that time.) But the physical location is off. Therefore, it would seem that the actual location would've have been south & west - something perhaps emanating from the south end of 2E - or maybe even 3E - then across the parkway into where D (3W) currently stands today.

I may just take the plunge and ask for a clarification over on that site. Fascinating stuff!
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
deltaffindfw
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:40 pm

N649DL wrote:
deltaffindfw wrote:
N649DL wrote:

There was also that other interesting terminal where DL used to be which IIRC had an underground walkway to get there from the terminals and it was underground. DL moved it's operations since then, this was about 5 years ago since I was there. Also the SkyClub was underground which was pretty cool. IDK if that terminal is there anymore, it might be vacant or torn down since then.


That is the E Satellite, which is still there. That is where AA has all their barbie jets. Also, the Skyclub was only at the ramp level during the reno of the normal E terminal. When DL had the hub at DFW, the Crown Room in Satellite E was actually on the concourse level across from the escalators. Where the temp Sky Club/United Club and current Admirals Club was/is on the ramp level was the ASA break room back in the day.


Last time I was DFW, they moved the SkyClub from where it was in E to the normal part of the concourse. This was as of 2018.


Yes, once the lower E TRIP program was completed, the SkyClub moved back to where it originally was at E10. I love that when DL had the hub, they had 3 Crown Room clubs in that one Terminal. AA had 3 clubs over it's 3 terminals.
 
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DL717
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Re: 1989: A radical redesign of DFW

Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:01 pm

DFW almost has the perfect layout (J/K). The ideal layout is multiple circular/ovoid terminals with cross taxiways between each concourse. Each concourse would be a wide open space with a central concession core and access to an underground APM. This allows access to a high number of gates per concourse (given a sufficient amount of space for a large diameter concourse) and a short travel distance between connecting flights. Such a configuration would need a common core for ticket counters and baggage claim with a train to each concourse. Alas, they have half circles and a bastardized air train connecting horseshoes with no cross taxiways between the horseshoes. The layout was perfect for O&D provided your gate didn't change to another concourse after you got there, as a hub it's a dumpster fire. The terminal layouts are plagued with the same problems found in MCI that were not designed to support the kind of security needed today along with the space needed for modern amenities. The lack of multiple cross taxiways near all terminals is a detriment to airfield efficiency.

As to MCI, they should build a new central core within the circulation roadway, then replace the crescent concourses with new ones with a core on each concourse. Provides a better experience and pays tribute to the original design.
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