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EA CO AS
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AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:34 am

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/flight ... d7wUZ6CJM/

AFA is coming for you, Delta inflight! Do you think they've got a shot?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 am

Didn't they just get voted down earlier this year? I swear this was a hot thread on here for a while.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
tys777
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 am

EA CO AS wrote:
https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/flight-attendants-union-launches-organizing-campaign-delta/nthHTZBdylpH0d7wUZ6CJM/

AFA is coming for you, Delta inflight! Do you think they've got a shot?


Failed in 2002, 2008, and 2010. I think it is going to be an uphill battle to get an union in there, but it's not impossible.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:08 am

It was IAM that failed. AFA has a lot more clout under their very charismatic and hard working leader Sara Nelson. So yes, Delta FAs will be unionized soon.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 am

CobaltScar wrote:
It was IAM that failed. AFA has a lot more clout under their very charismatic and hard working leader Sara Nelson. So yes, Delta FAs will be unionized soon.
She might be the greatest, but the current dynamics would certainly not make this a slam dunk.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:16 am

AFA has tried for 25 years at Delta and has failed. More charges Chavez been filed against the AFA.

“ AFA-CWA Interference November 1, 2019

Today marks a very unfortunate day in the worldwide labor movement. With the announcement of AFA-CWA’s formal raid of the IAMDelta campaign; their leadership has shown their hand in one of the most shameful acts of union busting the world has seen in years. AFA gave Delta Air Lines management a huge gift today.

AFA-CWA is currently breaking the rules of the AFL-CIO yet again only this time it isn’t under the cover of their faux “grassroots” farce. If anything positive does come from today’s announcement, it will be that the AFL-CIO will be forced into making a formal decision based on the clear and public interference.

Make no mistake that AFA-CWA and specifically President Sara Nelson’s shameful lack of solidarity is why Delta Flight Attendants remain unrepresented. Nelson has also figuratively given the AFL-CIO her middle finger today. Her actions do NOT show strength; they show ego and weakness, none of which help the Delta FAs or the labor community.

Our IAM campaign isn’t going away and we have jurisdiction within the AFL-CIO as the ONLY legitimate union organizing the Delta Flight Attendants. We will share all updated news/information from the AFL-CIO as we receive it.”
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:17 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:20 am

EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.
 
Coexstud
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:04 am

Delta inflight just barely voted down the last unionization attempt last time word and actions say from momma delta last counter unionization actions with posters saying you could by a video game control instead of a contract really pissed the rank and file in the wrong way.... but that’s just been my seeings around ATL
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:21 am

Coexstud wrote:
Delta inflight just barely voted down the last unionization attempt last time word and actions say from momma delta last counter unionization actions with posters saying you could by a video game control instead of a contract really pissed the rank and file in the wrong way.... but that’s just been my seeings around ATL

Still have to get 50% of the FAs to sign A-Cards.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:25 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


Profit sharing wasn’t cut. A company wide survey showed people preferred guaranteed higher wages than a higher profit sharing formula. A raise was given and the profit sharing formula was lowered. Since then the profit sharing formula has returned to what it previously was before the raise.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:26 am

EA CO AS wrote:
https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/flight-attendants-union-launches-organizing-campaign-delta/nthHTZBdylpH0d7wUZ6CJM/

AFA is coming for you, Delta inflight! Do you think they've got a shot?


I think they have a shot if it gets to a vote. A lot has changed since the last vote, such as 40% of FAs weren't at DL 9 years ago. Even then the main reason it was narrowly voted down was because PMDL FAs outnumbered the others by about 2 to 1. There's more data out there now to indicate that DL FAs are the lagging behind their peers. That's good ammo for the union.

EA CO AS wrote:
At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.


You're describing the reason to vote in a union. Profit sharing can't be taken away without negotiation.

If DL management would attempt to "punish" the FAs for voting in a union, it would expose what they really think of them.

DL777200LR wrote:
Profit sharing wasn’t cut. A company wide survey showed people preferred guaranteed higher wages than a higher profit sharing formula. A raise was given and the profit sharing formula was lowered. Since then the profit sharing formula has returned to what it previously was before the raise.


It's misleading to say it wasn't cut. Reality was that non-union PS was significantly cut, and management wanted the pilots to take deep cuts too. The pilots rejected it, and management was compelled to reinstate the higher level for the non-pilot workforce.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:28 am

Coexstud wrote:
Delta inflight just barely voted down the last unionization attempt last time word and actions say from momma delta last counter unionization actions with posters saying you could by a video game control instead of a contract really pissed the rank and file in the wrong way.... but that’s just been my seeings around ATL



Yea someone in marketing did a great job on that one lolol
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
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chepos
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:33 am

Sarah is a very charismatic, eloquent and sharp leader, that being said this will be an uphill battle. The DL spin machine will set the wheels in motion and make sure if this even gets to a vote fails one more time.


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questions
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:49 am

If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:00 am

DL777200LR wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


Profit sharing wasn’t cut. A company wide survey showed people preferred guaranteed higher wages than a higher profit sharing formula. A raise was given and the profit sharing formula was lowered. Since then the profit sharing formula has returned to what it previously was before the raise.

It was most certainly cut for non-union then restored last year.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-bonuses/

Non-union got 10.3% while unionized pilots got 17.8%
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:01 am

questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?

Approximately $39 a month.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:52 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


Profit sharing wasn’t cut. A company wide survey showed people preferred guaranteed higher wages than a higher profit sharing formula. A raise was given and the profit sharing formula was lowered. Since then the profit sharing formula has returned to what it previously was before the raise.

It was most certainly cut for non-union then restored last year.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... r-bonuses/

Non-union got 10.3% while unionized pilots got 17.8%


After a 14% raise. Pilots have always had their own contract separately. When employee’s complained that everyone should have the same profit sharing then the original formula was restored while keeping the 14% raise.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:08 am

EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.


I work at the same place you do and I get the same PBP payout formula that you get - I also get a generous high hourly pay. One thing doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. 25,000 FA's are a force to be reckoned with. The DL Pilots seem to be doing just fine as one of the two unionized groups on DL property.
 
Coexstud
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:45 am

questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?

A contract that doesn’t get changed day too day defined benefits that represent a true “”Global airline” defined pay and work rules and the list goes on and on.........
 
LawAndOrder
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:02 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.

Before u flame rumors or irresponsible statistics logically think of the counter argument. I don’t care if they unionize but as a former union member I’m not sure what they think they will gain.
Last edited by LawAndOrder on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:25 am

AFA wants that $20 million a year.

Small chance they get it.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:19 am

LawAndOrder wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.

Before u flame rumors or irresponsible statistics logically think of the counter argument. I don’t care if they unionize but as a former union member I’m not sure what they think they will gain.

The MIT Airline Data Project are facts and shows being unionized earns more in total compensation than non-union.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:24 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.


I work at the same place you do and I get the same PBP payout formula that you get - I also get a generous high hourly pay. One thing doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. 25,000 FA's are a force to be reckoned with. The DL Pilots seem to be doing just fine as one of the two unionized groups on DL property.


We also have an extremely large percentage of workgroups that are unionized, and - thankfully - management and labor have a collaborative relationship, rather than an adversarial one. I can absolutely see DL management reducing the level of participation in their profit sharing to any new workgroups organizing in an effort to keep others from doing the same.

Not saying it's right, mind you, but it's what I'd expect them to do.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:27 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?

Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:47 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
LawAndOrder wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.

Before u flame rumors or irresponsible statistics logically think of the counter argument. I don’t care if they unionize but as a former union member I’m not sure what they think they will gain.

The MIT Airline Data Project are facts and shows being unionized earns more in total compensation than non-union.


The data aren't normalized for length of service and thus progression up the pay scale, nor for hours worked annually. Amateur move. This was a recent thread with grade-school level interpretation of airline labor economics. He's eating some crow. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422979
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
catiii
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:49 pm

questions wrote:
What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?


What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.

And once they’re organized, Reservations, ACS and TechOps should quickly follow.
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:49 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
LawAndOrder wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.


That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.

Before u flame rumors or irresponsible statistics logically think of the counter argument. I don’t care if they unionize but as a former union member I’m not sure what they think they will gain.

The MIT Airline Data Project are facts and shows being unionized earns more in total compensation than non-union.


Im not so sure I would buy those #'s, unless they have another source. Can you provide a secondary source? So the union asks, and pays MIT to produce these #'s with a specific end result, do you really think it would come out any other way? Without secondary source of data, if you solely believe the MIT stats, then I have a bridge to sell you.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:53 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?

Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.

Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:55 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
LawAndOrder wrote:

That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.

Before u flame rumors or irresponsible statistics logically think of the counter argument. I don’t care if they unionize but as a former union member I’m not sure what they think they will gain.

The MIT Airline Data Project are facts and shows being unionized earns more in total compensation than non-union.


Im not so sure I would buy those #'s, unless they have another source. Can you provide a secondary source? So the union asks, and pays MIT to produce these #'s with a specific end result, do you really think it would come out any other way? Without secondary source of data, if you solely believe the MIT stats, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The unions have nothing to with the project. The project is one of the most respected out there.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

The U.S. commercial airline industry is one of the most diverse, dynamic and perplexing in the world. It is fast-evolving, labor intensive, capital intensive, hyper-competitive and highly susceptible to the ebb and flow of business cycles as well as being among the most regulated of deregulated businesses.

The Airline Data Project (ADP) was established by the MIT Global Airline Industry Program to better understand the opportunities, risks and challenges facing this vital industry. The ADP presents the most important airline industry data in one location in an easy-to-understand, user-friendly format.

The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure.

The ADP is designed to support the goals of the MIT Airline Industry Consortium. It is a unique repository of data and analysis that will allow individuals – from academia to the financial community to the news media – to monitor the evolution of the U.S. commercial airline industry.

The ADP is updated in June of each year pending the release of Form 41 data files by the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The last update of the ADP was in May 2018 for calendar year 2017 data. If you have questions about what items are included in various Form 41 data categories, you can refer to the U.S. DOT's Form 41 Financial Reporting Categories Item List Guide.

You are invited to review the data on this site and share your feedback on the wealth of information that is available about this highly visible industry.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:58 pm

catiii wrote:
questions wrote:
What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?


What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.


Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.

Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.


I am sure its an introductory offer, make it appealing and then swoop in after a year or two with something closer to what EA CO AS thinks
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:03 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
The MIT Airline Data Project are facts and shows being unionized earns more in total compensation than non-union.


Im not so sure I would buy those #'s, unless they have another source. Can you provide a secondary source? So the union asks, and pays MIT to produce these #'s with a specific end result, do you really think it would come out any other way? Without secondary source of data, if you solely believe the MIT stats, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The unions have nothing to with the project. The project is one of the most respected out there.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

The U.S. commercial airline industry is one of the most diverse, dynamic and perplexing in the world. It is fast-evolving, labor intensive, capital intensive, hyper-competitive and highly susceptible to the ebb and flow of business cycles as well as being among the most regulated of deregulated businesses.

The Airline Data Project (ADP) was established by the MIT Global Airline Industry Program to better understand the opportunities, risks and challenges facing this vital industry. The ADP presents the most important airline industry data in one location in an easy-to-understand, user-friendly format.

The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure.

The ADP is designed to support the goals of the MIT Airline Industry Consortium. It is a unique repository of data and analysis that will allow individuals – from academia to the financial community to the news media – to monitor the evolution of the U.S. commercial airline industry.

The ADP is updated in June of each year pending the release of Form 41 data files by the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The last update of the ADP was in May 2018 for calendar year 2017 data. If you have questions about what items are included in various Form 41 data categories, you can refer to the U.S. DOT's Form 41 Financial Reporting Categories Item List Guide.

You are invited to review the data on this site and share your feedback on the wealth of information that is available about this highly visible industry.


I would still like to see secondary and even tertiary data on this. I mean, when you have a large purchase to make, or any large project your about to undertake, do you base your decisions solely on what you might read on the internet from one source (even it its a reliable source) or do you do a more comprehensive review? Plus, I would like to see some professional rebuttals to the MIT data. I am not sold.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:13 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.

Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.


I am sure its an introductory offer, make it appealing and then swoop in after a year or two with something closer to what EA CO AS thinks

Doesn’t work that way. The FAs will vote on how their dues are calculated. There are five formulas in the IAM Constitution to choose from.

And they wouldn’t pay dues till they ratify their first contract.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
catiii wrote:
questions wrote:
What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?


What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.


Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/

Another one who degraded the profession, they are first responders and every major airline in the US the FAs are unionized, except DL.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:15 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Im not so sure I would buy those #'s, unless they have another source. Can you provide a secondary source? So the union asks, and pays MIT to produce these #'s with a specific end result, do you really think it would come out any other way? Without secondary source of data, if you solely believe the MIT stats, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The unions have nothing to with the project. The project is one of the most respected out there.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

The U.S. commercial airline industry is one of the most diverse, dynamic and perplexing in the world. It is fast-evolving, labor intensive, capital intensive, hyper-competitive and highly susceptible to the ebb and flow of business cycles as well as being among the most regulated of deregulated businesses.

The Airline Data Project (ADP) was established by the MIT Global Airline Industry Program to better understand the opportunities, risks and challenges facing this vital industry. The ADP presents the most important airline industry data in one location in an easy-to-understand, user-friendly format.

The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure.

The ADP is designed to support the goals of the MIT Airline Industry Consortium. It is a unique repository of data and analysis that will allow individuals – from academia to the financial community to the news media – to monitor the evolution of the U.S. commercial airline industry.

The ADP is updated in June of each year pending the release of Form 41 data files by the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The last update of the ADP was in May 2018 for calendar year 2017 data. If you have questions about what items are included in various Form 41 data categories, you can refer to the U.S. DOT's Form 41 Financial Reporting Categories Item List Guide.

You are invited to review the data on this site and share your feedback on the wealth of information that is available about this highly visible industry.


I would still like to see secondary and even tertiary data on this. I mean, when you have a large purchase to make, or any large project your about to undertake, do you base your decisions solely on what you might read on the internet from one source (even it its a reliable source) or do you do a more comprehensive review? Plus, I would like to see some professional rebuttals to the MIT data. I am not sold.

Then refute the data.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18432
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Agreed, there is no free ride. Delta treats their FAs very well, I doubt they will get more unionized. Each workgroup is allocated so much.

There have been so many union drives for the DL FAs. Is there really any demand?

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Agreed, there is no free ride. Delta treats their FAs very well, I doubt they will get more unionized. Each workgroup is allocated so much.

There have been so many union drives for the DL FAs. Is there really any demand?

Lightsaber

Cards are being signed and the DL FAs approached both unions. Sleeping on plane and airport floors while Pilots got hotel rooms isn’t being treated good. There are numerous shortcomings on how they are treated. DL fighting the Crew Rest laws isn’t treating your FAs well.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:29 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Agreed, there is no free ride. Delta treats their FAs very well, I doubt they will get more unionized. Each workgroup is allocated so much.

There have been so many union drives for the DL FAs. Is there really any demand?

Lightsaber

Cards are being signed and the DL FAs approached both unions. Sleeping on plane and airport floors while Pilots got hotel rooms isn’t being treated good. There are numerous shortcomings on how they are treated. DL fighting the Crew Rest laws isn’t treating your FAs well.


fact check: cards will be signed but not enough (hopefully). While I am sure once in a blue moon there comes an event when there aren't enough hotel rooms to go around (time and location have a huge play in this no matter what the airline) and guess what, the pilots get the room before anyone else. And, DL wasnt fighting the crew rest law, some media outlets reported it that way but that wasnt the case. Try again.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:39 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Agreed, there is no free ride. Delta treats their FAs very well, I doubt they will get more unionized. Each workgroup is allocated so much.

There have been so many union drives for the DL FAs. Is there really any demand?

Lightsaber

Cards are being signed and the DL FAs approached both unions. Sleeping on plane and airport floors while Pilots got hotel rooms isn’t being treated good. There are numerous shortcomings on how they are treated. DL fighting the Crew Rest laws isn’t treating your FAs well.


fact check: cards will be signed but not enough (hopefully). While I am sure once in a blue moon there comes an event when there aren't enough hotel rooms to go around (time and location have a hugde play in this no matter what the airline) and guess what, the pilots get the room before anyone else. And, DL wasnt fighting the crew rest law, some media outlets reported it that way but that wasnt the case. Try again.

Funny then how did some FAs get rooms in there own? And the DLFAs couldn’t even get in touch with crew scheduling. And yes DL was fighting it. I know plenty of FAs who work there.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Cards are being signed and the DL FAs approached both unions. Sleeping on plane and airport floors while Pilots got hotel rooms isn’t being treated good. There are numerous shortcomings on how they are treated. DL fighting the Crew Rest laws isn’t treating your FAs well.


fact check: cards will be signed but not enough (hopefully). While I am sure once in a blue moon there comes an event when there aren't enough hotel rooms to go around (time and location have a hugde play in this no matter what the airline) and guess what, the pilots get the room before anyone else. And, DL wasnt fighting the crew rest law, some media outlets reported it that way but that wasnt the case. Try again.

Funny then how did some FAs get rooms in there own? And the DLFAs couldn’t even get in touch with crew scheduling. And yes DL was fighting it. I know plenty of FAs who work there.


your not telling the whole story. shocking. Delta, and even UA, wanted to delay the implementation of the new crest rest law. They weren't as so much fighting against it, unless of course you believe Sarah Nelson. Oh, and I also know plenty of DL flight attendants too. small world.
Last edited by jumbojet on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:48 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

fact check: cards will be signed but not enough (hopefully). While I am sure once in a blue moon there comes an event when there aren't enough hotel rooms to go around (time and location have a hugde play in this no matter what the airline) and guess what, the pilots get the room before anyone else. And, DL wasnt fighting the crew rest law, some media outlets reported it that way but that wasnt the case. Try again.

Funny then how did some FAs get rooms in there own? And the DLFAs couldn’t even get in touch with crew scheduling. And yes DL was fighting it. I know plenty of FAs who work there.


your not telling the whole story. shocking. Delta, and even UA, wanted to delay the implementation of the new crest rest law. They weren't as so much fighting against it, unless of course you believe Sarah Nelson.

No I don’t believe anything Sara Nelson says, I’m not a fan of hers and would never trust her. And this isn’t about UA it’s about Delta and what they did and are doing.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... ttendants/
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:51 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Funny then how did some FAs get rooms in there own? And the DLFAs couldn’t even get in touch with crew scheduling. And yes DL was fighting it. I know plenty of FAs who work there.


your not telling the whole story. shocking. Delta, and even UA, wanted to delay the implementation of the new crest rest law. They weren't as so much fighting against it, unless of course you believe Sarah Nelson.

No I don’t believe anything Sara Nelson says, I’m not a fan of hers and would never trust her. And this isn’t about UA it’s about Delta and what they did and are doing.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... ttendants/


again, you post one article, whoopie. that means nothing. I've read that DL wasnt as so much fighting the content of the new law but wanted more time to implement it.

And, if DL was actually against it then this new election should be a slam dunk for the union.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:54 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

your not telling the whole story. shocking. Delta, and even UA, wanted to delay the implementation of the new crest rest law. They weren't as so much fighting against it, unless of course you believe Sarah Nelson.

No I don’t believe anything Sara Nelson says, I’m not a fan of hers and would never trust her. And this isn’t about UA it’s about Delta and what they did and are doing.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... ttendants/


again, you post one article, whoopie. that means nothing. I've read that DL wasnt as so much fighting the content of the new law but wanted more time to implement it.

And, if DL was actually against it then this new election should be a slam dunk for the union.

Use the google, I don’t have to post numerous articles and it’s the DL FAs Federally protected right to seek to unionize, its their choice not yours, not mine. We get your anti-union, facts say unionized FAs are compensated more than non-union. Do you know Delta takes out the dollar amount a retired DL FA gets from Social Security from their pension? Doesn’t happen to the PMNW FAs?
 
catiii
Posts: 3201
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
catiii wrote:
questions wrote:
What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?


What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.


Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


You’re saying they’re not safety professionals?
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:12 pm

catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
catiii wrote:

What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.


Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


You’re saying they’re not safety professionals?

I think the passengers of US A320 in the Hudson would disagree with him. Friend is a DL FA had to perform CPR and AED on an elderly passenger who had a heart attack inflight yesterday, he didn’t make it.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14074
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:44 pm

catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
catiii wrote:

What exactly was the allure of union representation for DL pilots? Delta FA’s want, and should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot
group has. They’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation.


Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


You’re saying they’re not safety professionals?


It’s a false dichotomy, no? Flight attendants absolutely are safety professionals. They are also equally absolutely less trained and qualified than pilots. That doesn’t make them less important than pilots but it does mean that their needs and wants might be different.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 pm

A plane can’t take without the required number of FAs either.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:35 pm

The whole DL treats their flight attendants well is such a myth.

Look at their health insurance costs, sick policy, vacation pay, amount of vacation days, minimum daily guarantee pay, amount of sick time, FMLA policy, reserve rules etc.. Everything is worse compared to AA and UA.

They are professionals who deserve a strong contract like their pilots. Profit sharing is not going away if they get a union. In fact, the pilots who are unionized were the only ones who kept the old formula of profit sharing when DL tried to be shady a few years ago and changed the formula for non - unionized groups. Without any rules, things change all the time and you have no rights.
Last edited by Detroit313 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:59 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
The whole DL treats their flight attendants well is such a myth.

Look at their health insurance costs, sick policy, vacation pay, amount of vacation days, minimum daily guarantee pay, amount of sick time, FMLA policy, reserve rules etc.. Everything is worse compared to AA and UA.

They are professionals who deserve a strong contract like their pilots. Profit sharing is not going away if they get a union. In fact, the pilots who are unionized were the only ones who kept the old formula of profit sharing when DL tried to be shady a few years ago and changed the formula for non - unionized groups. Without any rules, things change all the time.

You speak the truth.
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