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jayunited
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:03 pm

questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?


Union dues don’t amount to much each month and as others have posted although DL earlier this year did give all non-union employees a rise at the high scale UA’s FA’s are making $14,000 dollars more per year non including profit sharing.

But in my honest opinion the real benefit of a union to FA’s comes down to work rules. DL’s rules are built in such a way that they benefit the airline (remember the story of how DL management forced the gate agents to close the MCD even though they new maintenance was still working on a problem and the plane was sitting at the gate for at least 60-75 minutes while maintenance worked on the problem). Those FA’s had no voice (well their only voice could have been the captain who allowed the MCD to close even though the aircraft wasn’t maintenance ready) but at UA because of different work rules that would have never happened.

I’m not saying unions are perfect they are far from it but for FA’s becoming unionized with a reputable union that understand the FA work life can become a check and balance system to management who only care about no cancellation.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:12 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
[DL] Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut.


I'm sure there are DL pilots on here who can chime in to confirm, but didn't they negotiate to retain full (original formulas) profit sharing payout at the expense of other items on their list of asks?
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NW
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:30 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
The whole DL treats their flight attendants well is such a myth.

Look at their health insurance costs, sick policy, vacation pay, amount of vacation days, minimum daily guarantee pay, amount of sick time, FMLA policy, reserve rules etc.. Everything is worse compared to AA and UA.

They are professionals who deserve a strong contract like their pilots. Profit sharing is not going away if they get a union. In fact, the pilots who are unionized were the only ones who kept the old formula of profit sharing when DL tried to be shady a few years ago and changed the formula for non - unionized groups. Without any rules, things change all the time and you have no rights.


And it's just as bad with other work groups too or worse. Especially the ones who have never been close to unionizing. Delta does not offer health insurance, it's more on the lines of catastrophe insurance. The cost to carry the insurance, monthly premiums, may not be super high but the out of pocket expense to use the insurance is super high in comparison to most unionized employees and even non unionized employees at similar successful corporations. And the costs are going up this year, same as last year, but Delta is really promoting the fact that our premiums are not going up. It's just smoke and mirrors.

Ground employees work as separate work groups, Ready Reserve and Benefited, and this has destroyed the seniority of senior employees. I have 26 years but only 6 people below me when I bid although in reality there are 32 people who do the same job as me with less seniority. Some of our ready reserve employees have double digit seniority but do not have health insurance! This is crazy for a company that is making billions of dollars every year.

I would gladly pay $39/month or more to get the same benefits, works rules and protections our unionized co workers have.
Last edited by NW on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:38 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.

Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.


That's less than what the IAM charges for union dues for ground employees at AS; I'd be surprised if they held to just $39/mo for DL inflight.

Regardless, this isn't about IAM - it's AFA that's coming after DL this time. IAM took their shot and missed.

And before you say anything about how IAM isn't finished there, if you're pro-union and pro-worker, you wouldn't care which union gets on the property.
Last edited by EA CO AS on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:39 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
[DL] Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut.


I'm sure there are DL pilots on here who can chime in to confirm, but didn't they negotiate to retain full (original formulas) profit sharing payout at the expense of other items on their list of asks?

No they also obtained a 17.5% raise over the life of that contract in 2012 and a 30% in the 2016 contract.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delt ... SKBN13Q50C
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:44 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.

Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.


That's less than what the IAM charges for union dues for ground employees at AS; I'd be surprised if they held to just $39/mo for DL inflight.

Regardless, this isn't about IAM - it's AFA that's coming after DL this time. IAM took their shot and missed.

And before you say anything about how IAM isn't finished there, if you're pro-union and pro-worker, you wouldn't care which union gets on the property.

Flight Attendants arent paid hourly like a 40 hour a week ground worker. And you apparently have no idea about Article 21 of the AFLCIO Constitution.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:13 pm

Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:17 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.
 
dlflynhayn
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:38 pm

SteelChair wrote:
AFA wants that $20 million a year.

Small chance they get it.


Its all about the $ and you think the Union really cares about you lol.Yup id say about 2% chance the union wins :lol:
 
catiii
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:58 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Oh, that's a good one. I think DL FA's generally do a good job but it's a mistake to compare a highly trained group of employees (pilots, with 1500+ flight hours required just to be hired) and a work group that can be replaced with two weeks of training. That's right - the FAA has precedent saying ten days training was qualifying. See AA's 1993 approval:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


You’re saying they’re not safety professionals?


It’s a false dichotomy, no? Flight attendants absolutely are safety professionals. They are also equally absolutely less trained and qualified than pilots. That doesn’t make them less important than pilots but it does mean that their needs and wants might be different.


Go back and read my post. I said they’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation as the pilot group, and thusly should have should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot group has if they want to. What their level of training has to do with their right to collectively bargain should they choose is irrelevant.

If you want to argue that they’re not as integral to the safety of the operation, and therefore shouldn’t be able to organize, then have at it.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:58 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
[DL] Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut.


I'm sure there are DL pilots on here who can chime in to confirm, but didn't they negotiate to retain full (original formulas) profit sharing payout at the expense of other items on their list of asks?

No they also obtained a 17.5% raise over the life of that contract in 2012 and a 30% in the 2016 contract.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delt ... SKBN13Q50C


As a Delta Pilot, I acknowledge the successes of the last two contracts are more to do with the building pilot shortage and increase in demand for our services than because we have a union. FAs have no such high demand and never will as long as they don’t have a mandatory retirement age. As a result, FAs have less clout to bargain for major gains like pilots.


ILL
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:04 pm

Then why are AA, WN, and UA FAs make more than DL FAs in total compensation?
 
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Polot
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:13 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
FAs have no such high demand and never will as long as they don’t have a mandatory retirement age.

Even then there won’t be high demand for FAs like pilots. The issue with attracting pilots is that it is a skilled position that takes a lot of investment before you can even land a job. FAs are not a skilled position. Any able bodied and mind adult can be trained relatively quickly and cheaply to become a FA.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:14 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Nope the IAM has stated their dues would be $39 a month.


That's less than what the IAM charges for union dues for ground employees at AS; I'd be surprised if they held to just $39/mo for DL inflight.

Regardless, this isn't about IAM - it's AFA that's coming after DL this time. IAM took their shot and missed.

And before you say anything about how IAM isn't finished there, if you're pro-union and pro-worker, you wouldn't care which union gets on the property.

Flight Attendants arent paid hourly like a 40 hour a week ground worker. And you apparently have no idea about Article 21 of the AFLCIO Constitution.


You're right; they start at higher overall pay, and top out at much higher overall pay. And I don't care about the AFLCIO constitution; this thread is about AFA coming to organize at DL. If you truly are for the worker, you won't care who organizes - you'll be happy they're represented.

Or, if you're just an IAM shill, you'll whine about who got there first, etc.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:14 pm

Polot wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
FAs have no such high demand and never will as long as they don’t have a mandatory retirement age.

Even then there won’t be high demand for FAs like pilots. The issue with attracting pilots is that it is a skilled position that takes a lot of investment before you can even land a job. FAs are not a skilled position. Any able bodied and mind adult can be trained relatively quickly and cheaply to become a FA.

They are considered skilled labor and now have an FAA certification.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:16 pm

Polot wrote:
Any able bodied and mind adult can be trained relatively quickly and cheaply to become a FA.


While that's a really overly-broad statement I can't agree with 100%, I'd agree that qualified candidates for pilots are in far higher demand and have a far more valuable skill set than any FA candidate ever could.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:18 pm

catiii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
catiii wrote:

You’re saying they’re not safety professionals?


It’s a false dichotomy, no? Flight attendants absolutely are safety professionals. They are also equally absolutely less trained and qualified than pilots. That doesn’t make them less important than pilots but it does mean that their needs and wants might be different.


Go back and read my post. I said they’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation as the pilot group, and thusly should have should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot group has if they want to. What their level of training has to do with their right to collectively bargain should they choose is irrelevant.

If you want to argue that they’re not as integral to the safety of the operation, and therefore shouldn’t be able to organize, then have at it.


Of course they should be able to organize. My point is simply that the fact that organizing was apparently in pilots’ best interest does not, in itself, mean that organizing is in flight attendants’ best interest. They are very different workgroups, though some of their interests, like decent hotels for overnight, no doubt overlap.
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ASFlyer
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:49 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.


I work at the same place you do and I get the same PBP payout formula that you get - I also get a generous high hourly pay. One thing doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. 25,000 FA's are a force to be reckoned with. The DL Pilots seem to be doing just fine as one of the two unionized groups on DL property.


We also have an extremely large percentage of workgroups that are unionized, and - thankfully - management and labor have a collaborative relationship, rather than an adversarial one. I can absolutely see DL management reducing the level of participation in their profit sharing to any new workgroups organizing in an effort to keep others from doing the same.

Not saying it's right, mind you, but it's what I'd expect them to do.


well, it all comes down to what is negotiated. Once voted in, management can't change anything until a contract is fairly negotiated. For as much as DL management loathes the idea of another union on their property - they also don't want their employee morale and service levels to go down the tube because they start playing unfairly during contract negotiations. They have a vested interest in continuing to ensure that they have happy employees - just as AS does now.

EA CO AS wrote:
$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.


AFA members pay $50 a month.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:15 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


At the cost of being the only workgroup on the property who doesn't get the same profit sharing payout, most likely. Don't think for a moment that management will allow them to keep the same profit sharing - it will be negotiated as part of a CBA, and won't be anywhere as generous to offset the higher hourly pay that will likely result.

Pilots are unionized and was the only group who’s profit sharing wasn’t cut when all non-union employees had it cut. And DL pilots are one of the highest paid in the industry. Reality doesn’t fit your narrative.

And everything has to be Status Quo until a contract is ratified. Delta’s FA cost are $100 million less than UA and UA FAs earn $14,000 more in total compensation according to the MIT Airline Data Project than the DL FAs.



Well according to that source, Southwest and Spirit mechanics AVERAGE $127k/$122k respectively in 2019, which according to that source is $30k+ more than any of the US3.... Something doesn’t seem right there. Maybe there’s a better source to show total FA compensation for US airlines. And where are you getting the $14000 more from? From your source: AA-$65k, DL-$59k, UA- $66k.
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jersey777
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:35 pm

As an AA flight attendant, I wish the Delta flight attendants good luck. I’m a little torn on this issue though. Delta management always raises the bar to keep their flight attendants happy during any union drive with hourly pay increases, which we at AA use as a metric during negotiations. We say that Delta flight attendants are making x dollars amounts without having to say what they don’t have via work rules and other variables including insurance prices and other non hourly benefits.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 pm

So yes, Delta FAs will be unionized soon.


No, that isn't a certainty, not by any means. Take it from me, a former union rep (different industry), establishing a union is a struggle. Basically, as long as the business is operating efficiently, everyone is getting paid fairly, and the employees don't feel like they're getting reamed out over every little thing, they really don't have a need to join a union. Toss in the union dues coming out of their paychecks every month and you've got a recipe for unhappy members. You see, that's part of the reason that unions are so vocal and loud - to justify their existence and those pesky union dues. The lack of action makes members question why they're paying those dues.

I see unions as being forces more for good than evil, but only as long as they remain focused on their traditional core goals, like safety and fair work rules. A well run business can keep a union out simply by treating its employees decently. That was part of the reason that Henry Ford paid his workers so well back in the Model T era, gave then weekends off if they wanted, and an 8 hour workday. His competitors thought that he was insane but he saw the value of a well-paid, happy and therefore productive and motivated workforce. Call it welfare capitalism or common sense, it helped to make Ford into a giant. As long as Delta remains even partly close to the Henry Ford playbook, a union will have a very tough time convincing the flight attendants to join up. Also, let's not forget that while Delta is a worldwide carrier, much of their route network is based out of Atlanta and other areas and states where union membership is most certainly not on the rise, let alone supported. From a social, behavioral and philosophical perspective, forming a union in those regions will be an uphill climb.
 
catiii
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:08 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
catiii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

It’s a false dichotomy, no? Flight attendants absolutely are safety professionals. They are also equally absolutely less trained and qualified than pilots. That doesn’t make them less important than pilots but it does mean that their needs and wants might be different.


Go back and read my post. I said they’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation as the pilot group, and thusly should have should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot group has if they want to. What their level of training has to do with their right to collectively bargain should they choose is irrelevant.

If you want to argue that they’re not as integral to the safety of the operation, and therefore shouldn’t be able to organize, then have at it.


Of course they should be able to organize. My point is simply that the fact that organizing was apparently in pilots’ best interest does not, in itself, mean that organizing is in flight attendants’ best interest. They are very different workgroups, though some of their interests, like decent hotels for overnight, no doubt overlap.


Ok, but that wasn’t what we were taking about. Miflyer weighed in saying that flight attendants can’t be compared with pilots when it comes to the safety of the operation. Not sure why what you’re referring to is relevant. Of course they have different interests.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:10 pm

Good luck to Delta flight attendants. The intimidation tactics will be relentless and many will be disciplined or even fired but justice always prevails.

The last vote in 2010 was 51% against - 49% for. It's been getting closer and closer every time they vote.
 
catiii
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:10 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.


“Arguably” isn’t factually. They’re not the best compensated. “Most satisfied” is relative.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:18 pm

catiii wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
catiii wrote:

Go back and read my post. I said they’re as integral to the safety and well being of the passenger and the operation as the pilot group, and thusly should have should have, the same collective bargaining protections that the pilot group has if they want to. What their level of training has to do with their right to collectively bargain should they choose is irrelevant.

If you want to argue that they’re not as integral to the safety of the operation, and therefore shouldn’t be able to organize, then have at it.


Of course they should be able to organize. My point is simply that the fact that organizing was apparently in pilots’ best interest does not, in itself, mean that organizing is in flight attendants’ best interest. They are very different workgroups, though some of their interests, like decent hotels for overnight, no doubt overlap.


Ok, but that wasn’t what we were taking about. Miflyer weighed in saying that flight attendants can’t be compared with pilots when it comes to the safety of the operation. Not sure why what you’re referring to is relevant. Of course they have different interests.


Miflyer is obviously correct. Flight attendants and pilots have vastly different responsibilities with different effects on safety. Flight attendants have quite a lot more non-safety-related responsibilities. But what does that have to do with anything?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Packson
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:31 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
A plane can’t take without the required number of FAs either.


Sure it can. It can takeoff with up to 19 passengers without any FA's (part 135) and non-recs for 121. Piots on the other hand? Everyone comparing Delta FA's to Delta pilots pay etc. needs to stop, Apples and Oranges. Delta Fa's pay needs to be compared to their counterparts at other airlines not Pilots!
 
jayunited
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:03 pm

Packson wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
A plane can’t take without the required number of FAs either.


Sure it can. It can takeoff with up to 19 passengers without any FA's (part 135) and non-recs for 121. Piots on the other hand? Everyone comparing Delta FA's to Delta pilots pay etc. needs to stop, Apples and Oranges. Delta Fa's pay needs to be compared to their counterparts at other airlines not Pilots!


I’m not so sue this entire issue is all about pay as much as it is about fair and balance work rules. I’ve often asked this question which is how does DL’s work rules compare to both AA and UA? One of the biggest sticking points for UA after the mergers and why it took so long for UA’s FA’s to get a single contract was because sUA’s FA’s although they were making less than their sCO counterparts the sUA FA’s had far better work rules than their peers at sCO. The sUA FA’s were not budging even though the sCO UA’s basically just wanted the money. Heck UA wanted to give the FA’s the money they were hoping if they hired enough FA’s under the sCO contract people would be gullible enough for vote for money and forget all about the work rules. That is what UA wanted, here take the money but what good is the money when the management holds all the real power?

I said that to say this have a fair and balance system that benefits both parties (company and FA’s) is extremely important. DL will happily give their FA’s raise after raise, after raise but DL will never give their FA’s the work rule benefits that UA and I’m assuming AA’s FA’s have. While money is important the real value of a contract can be found in the details the work rules details that if drafted correctly gives the FA’s something to fight back with when management says otherwise.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:35 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.


Ever considered the savings to DELTA from being free of UA’s costly union work rules? That goes right back into the company to invest in benefits, industry-leading profit sharing, hard and soft product, etc....
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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777Mech
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:40 am

DL747400 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.


Ever considered the savings to DELTA from being free of UA’s costly union work rules? That goes right back into the company to invest in benefits, industry-leading profit sharing, hard and soft product, etc....

Robbing Peter to pay Paul eh?
 
Prost
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:44 am

Talking with a lot of our more junior and new hire flight attendants, and they seem very pro-union. I’m quite shocked at the ratio. I have no idea how the vote will play out , but I expect the next six months to be exhausting at my mailbox.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:37 am

Here is what’s going on:

First off, the IAM has what’s called jurisdiction for organizing the Delta FAs. That means that under the AFL-CIO rules; only one union can organize a group of employees at one one. The articles within the bylaws are a main premise of why the AFL even exists....they’re meant to prevent competition and create an environment of solidarity both in campaigns and in already represented groups.

History

Back in 2015 we started to notice that AFA President Sara Nelson was starting to communicate with and “poach” some of our activists by telling them that the IAM couldn’t win and trying to cozy them up to AFA. This was right after we were forced to pull our filing for an election. She was preying on their emotions. This eventually led to an underground anti IAM campaign by former activists. It got less “underground” so to speak and much more blatant to the point where we had so much evidence of AFA interference in our campaign that not only myself personally, but of course, members of the Grand Lodge spoke to Sara Nelson directly. Direct communications to resolve the matter did not work. Mediation was attempted. That did not work. After a long, drawn out process we eventually had an arbitration against AFA in DC where, based on the interference and breaking of the AFL-CIO bylaws; we requested a period of what’s called “exclusivity”. Typically, exclusivity is not a requirement when a union already has jurisdiction. Its rare. It’s requested to stop and resolve the interference of a sister union.

We did win the arbitration in April of 2017. The ruling was for 18 months of exclusivity. One of the longest in AFL history due to the severity of the interference.

Just a few months after the arbitration, it was clear that
AFA wasn’t complying with the ruling. At that point, we filed more charges and kept sending in evidence of interference and non-compliance. Unfortunately the AFL-CIO kept kicking the can down the road so to speak and didn’t make another ruling. The interference continued.

Current

Fast forward to just a few weeks ago, we sent in hundreds of pages of evidence that seemed to prompt the AFL into final action shortly before the ‘exclusivity’ period was about to expire. Our stance was that no period of exclusivity ever existed in practice and that the AFL needed to act to require AFA (at this point CWA) to comply with the arbitration...the bylaws/rules of the AFL. Require meaning force CWA to comply.

Complying would mean that CWA, AFA (President of AFA Nelson) should put in writing that AFA was disavowing interest in organizing the Delta Flight Attendants...that any AFA cards from Delta FAs would NOT be collected by AFA and that any sent would be forwarded to IAM headquarters and...and a statement should be given whereas AFA showed support for the IAM campaign and encouraged FAs to sign IAM cards.

The AFL-CIO responded by requiring information from both unions to hear their responses to particular questions before moving forward with another ruling. AFA requested a delay. The delayed date for the required response/information was Nov. 1.

On Nov. 1, AFA blatantly broke AFL-CIO rules and started a formal raid/campaign to represent the Delta FAs.

Now, it’s clear that we are no longer dealing with a case of interference/non-compliance that we have to prove. It’s a very public raid.

Future

It’s now up to the AFL-CIO to act. If they don’t condemn the AFA raid, sanction the CWA and force CWA and AFA to comply with the rules; they’ll not only be breaking the entire premise and reason for the AFL-CIO to exist as an organization but they’ll also be setting a very dangerous precedent whereas it’s free game for any union to raid another union...even outside of a campaign. The AFL might as well not even exist and solidarity within the labor movement will be ruined for many years to come.

Now, we wait to see what the AFL-CIO does so we can move forward.

I also know that many of you don’t care about any of this; you just want a union. However, please think about the gravity of this situation. Union Campaigns can’t be successful when started based on lying, subterfuge and blatant disregard for the solidarity of the labor movement.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:53 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Here is what’s going on:

First off, the IAM has what’s called jurisdiction for organizing the Delta FAs. That means that under the AFL-CIO rules; only one union can organize a group of employees at one one. The articles within the bylaws are a main premise of why the AFL even exists....they’re meant to prevent competition and create an environment of solidarity both in campaigns and in already represented groups.

History

Back in 2015 we started to notice that AFA President Sara Nelson was starting to communicate with and “poach” some of our activists by telling them that the IAM couldn’t win and trying to cozy them up to AFA. This was right after we were forced to pull our filing for an election. She was preying on their emotions. This eventually led to an underground anti IAM campaign by former activists. It got less “underground” so to speak and much more blatant to the point where we had so much evidence of AFA interference in our campaign that not only myself personally, but of course, members of the Grand Lodge spoke to Sara Nelson directly. Direct communications to resolve the matter did not work. Mediation was attempted. That did not work. After a long, drawn out process we eventually had an arbitration against AFA in DC where, based on the interference and breaking of the AFL-CIO bylaws; we requested a period of what’s called “exclusivity”. Typically, exclusivity is not a requirement when a union already has jurisdiction. Its rare. It’s requested to stop and resolve the interference of a sister union.

We did win the arbitration in April of 2017. The ruling was for 18 months of exclusivity. One of the longest in AFL history due to the severity of the interference.

Just a few months after the arbitration, it was clear that
AFA wasn’t complying with the ruling. At that point, we filed more charges and kept sending in evidence of interference and non-compliance. Unfortunately the AFL-CIO kept kicking the can down the road so to speak and didn’t make another ruling. The interference continued.

Current

Fast forward to just a few weeks ago, we sent in hundreds of pages of evidence that seemed to prompt the AFL into final action shortly before the ‘exclusivity’ period was about to expire. Our stance was that no period of exclusivity ever existed in practice and that the AFL needed to act to require AFA (at this point CWA) to comply with the arbitration...the bylaws/rules of the AFL. Require meaning force CWA to comply.

Complying would mean that CWA, AFA (President of AFA Nelson) should put in writing that AFA was disavowing interest in organizing the Delta Flight Attendants...that any AFA cards from Delta FAs would NOT be collected by AFA and that any sent would be forwarded to IAM headquarters and...and a statement should be given whereas AFA showed support for the IAM campaign and encouraged FAs to sign IAM cards.

The AFL-CIO responded by requiring information from both unions to hear their responses to particular questions before moving forward with another ruling. AFA requested a delay. The delayed date for the required response/information was Nov. 1.

On Nov. 1, AFA blatantly broke AFL-CIO rules and started a formal raid/campaign to represent the Delta FAs.

Now, it’s clear that we are no longer dealing with a case of interference/non-compliance that we have to prove. It’s a very public raid.

Future

It’s now up to the AFL-CIO to act. If they don’t condemn the AFA raid, sanction the CWA and force CWA and AFA to comply with the rules; they’ll not only be breaking the entire premise and reason for the AFL-CIO to exist as an organization but they’ll also be setting a very dangerous precedent whereas it’s free game for any union to raid another union...even outside of a campaign. The AFL might as well not even exist and solidarity within the labor movement will be ruined for many years to come.

Now, we wait to see what the AFL-CIO does so we can move forward.

I also know that many of you don’t care about any of this; you just want a union. However, please think about the gravity of this situation. Union Campaigns can’t be successful when started based on lying, subterfuge and blatant disregard for the solidarity of the labor movement.



So, you’re not really interested in the “plight” of DL inflight or ensuring they can somehow organize; you’re just interested in seeing the IAM make it onto the property.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
global1
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:04 am

Oh jeez, here we go again. Another thread by people who don’t even work here, telling us how badly we really have it over at Delta. The ‘plight’ at Delta inflight! If that were the case, why is Delta recognized by Forbes as one of the top 50 employers to work for. Same by GlassDoor and others.

I don’t know how this 14k figure was arrived at. There are many ways to look at numbers. I doubt it’s accurate. For instance, I just got a 4% pay raise yesterday. That couldn’t have been factored in nor that on February 14 I can look forward to a profit sharing check of nearly 20% of my salary. Those 2 items total nearly 25k.

AA/UA don’t seem to get much for their ‘14k’.
Many seem malcontents and not at all particularly happy to be working where they are. Take a Delta flight or just observe the employees as they go about their jobs.
The difference is real and palpable.
 
jethawk
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:42 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:53 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.



Honestly your rhetoric on this thread is getting old. Your figures are absolutely false. Yet you continue to spew misinformation. Delta's flight attendants are the best compensated in the industry.

Top Out Pay:
Delta: $69.59
United: $67.11 (2021)
American: $60.75 (2019)

Someone please help me with my math here. I'm struggling to see how United F/As make $14,000 more in total compensation.

$14,000 is a figure you will likely see Delta flight attendants bringing home in profit sharing.

https://cdn.afacwa.org/docs/cba/united/ ... 6-2021.pdf

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... t-2014.pdf
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:05 am

jethawk wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.



Honestly your rhetoric on this thread is getting old. Your figures are absolutely false. Yet you continue to spew misinformation. Delta's flight attendants are the best compensated in the industry.

Top Out Pay:
Delta: $69.59
United: $67.11 (2021)
American: $60.75 (2019)

Someone please help me with my math here. I'm struggling to see how United F/As make $14,000 more in total compensation.

$14,000 is a figure you will likely see Delta flight attendants bringing home in profit sharing.

https://cdn.afacwa.org/docs/cba/united/ ... 6-2021.pdf

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... t-2014.pdf



Your numbers are wrong...probably intentionally. I love it when a poster chastises another for false figures and then gets proven wrong themselves.

AA’s current top-out is $68.25/hour plus premiums which can increase the hourly rate to around $80/hour depending on which premiums apply to the specific flying done.

Don’t let the facts get in your way. Nice try, though.
 
Elementalism
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:53 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
questions wrote:
If unionized, approximately how much would an FA pay in annual dues?

What exactly is the allure of union representation for DL FA’s who want it? What are they expecting to get?

Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.


My wife worked in a hospital that was unionized. She paid ~900 a year to the union. For that she received zero representation in any disputes and was cornered by union members during a strike because she had to work to provide for her child. She will never work for a unionized health care provider again.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:39 am

jethawk wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.



Honestly your rhetoric on this thread is getting old. Your figures are absolutely false. Yet you continue to spew misinformation. Delta's flight attendants are the best compensated in the industry.

Top Out Pay:
Delta: $69.59
United: $67.11 (2021)
American: $60.75 (2019)

Someone please help me with my math here. I'm struggling to see how United F/As make $14,000 more in total compensation.

$14,000 is a figure you will likely see Delta flight attendants bringing home in profit sharing.

https://cdn.afacwa.org/docs/cba/united/ ... 6-2021.pdf

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... t-2014.pdf

Your forgetting, vacation, sick pay, pension, 401k match, insurance wages and work rules, those are total compensation, not just wages.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:19 am

DL747400 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Despite all the false claims to the contrary on this thread, Delta Flight Attendants are arguably the best compensated and most satisfied Flight Attendants in the industry. Thats why they've refused many times to vote for representation. A union will only make their work environment and careers worse.....the majority see that.

The MIT data research project doesn't capture all metrics.

Yes it does, DL’s cost for FAs vs UA is $100,000,000 less and UA’s FAs make $14,000 more in total compensation, those are facts, you’ve posted no supporting data. You opinion is meaningless.


Ever considered the savings to DELTA from being free of UA’s costly union work rules? That goes right back into the company to invest in benefits, industry-leading profit sharing, hard and soft product, etc....

No it goes to the shareholders
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:35 pm

Elementalism wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Approximately $39 a month.


$39/mo is pretty low for union dues; I'd expect it to be at least $60/mo.


My wife worked in a hospital that was unionized. She paid ~900 a year to the union. For that she received zero representation in any disputes and was cornered by union members during a strike because she had to work to provide for her child. She will never work for a unionized health care provider again.

Apples to oranges. Then why is the airline industry one of the highest percentage of unionized workers?
 
drgreendds
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:06 pm

I certainly hope not. When Delta and Northwest merged a decade ago, there was an obvious difference between the two workforces. As a frequent flyer, you always knew when you had a Delta crew vs. a NW crew because they were happy, outgoing and personable, and seemed to enjoy their jobs. The NW crews were, in a word, dreadful, to be onboard with because they were always grumpy and unhappy. Granted, there were exceptions to this throughout the workforce, but in general there was a stark contrast between the happy and friendly non-union FAs and the grumpy and disinterested unionized FAs.

Unions are a huge hassle for any employer and Delta's top brass knows this. But if there is no need for a union, why would their employees push it. Delta has invested heavily in their employees since the merger. To my knowledge (and this comes from insider information I have within that company) Delta employees have very good pay, excellent benefits, and they are sticklers about pushing their employees beyond normal work expectations (sometimes at the expense of the traveling public). And their profit-sharing checks have been huge over the past few years. So what benefit does bringing a union in do for the employees in this situation? According to folks I know - very little - and doing so will risk losing the huge profit sharing checks they have been getting the past few years (I'd love to receive a PS check for 10s of thousands of dollars every year).

My point... Delta FAs seemingly like their jobs. They, for the most part, are happy with their work environment. Personally, I hope the union continues to be shut out at Delta. As a NW traveller for years before the merger, I have seen the indifferent product the union represented. It wasn't pleasant to be around. I truly hope the Delta FA group continue on as a non-union entity.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:19 pm

That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.


It's also possible that DL's FA's make less on average because it's a much more junior group comaparitively.


catiii wrote:
And once they’re organized, Reservations, ACS and TechOps should quickly follow.


Maybe the ramp, but I don't see much of an appetite for organizing in RES, TechOps, or even 125.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:23 pm

Delta’s response

Allison Message

NOVEMBER 1, 2019

Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) Announces Union Card Signing Campaign

Hi Everyone:

Today, AFA announced their intent to organize Delta flight attendants yet again; and IAM is continuing its card-signing campaign as well. Despite our people rejecting their attempts in 2002, 2008, 2010 and 2015, both unions are at it again.

As a Delta flight attendant and a leader advocating for our 25,000 people, I want to share my point of view with all of you.

Delta is not just any airline.

Our flight attendants are the world's best and brightest—and deserve the greatest culture, work environment and long-term career opportunities. Our ability to partner directly with one another has also enabled our track record of unsurpassed investments into both the employee and customer experience, fueling our shared success.

So why is AFA back for the fourth time? The sheer size of our flight attendant group represents an irresistible financial and membership win for any union—$15 million per year. This revenue opportunity is so enticing that in 2018, the AFL-CIO had to step in to resolve a dispute between IAM and AFA over the “exclusive right” to try to capture Delta flight attendants’ dues.

In the coming days and weeks, you may be asked by union organizers to sign an authorization card (A-card). Signing an A-card to request a union election is a deeply personal and important decision affecting each of you and your families. What’s at stake is Delta’s iconic culture and the remarkable success we’ve built together. To help you further with your research, we’ve put together a list of questions and answers and built a new website called The Delta Difference. The site shares many examples and moments that show our people and culture at its best. Additionally, this site will be a helpful resource for you to find quick answers to your questions, learn what signing an A-card actually means—as well as to share our own points of view.

Being different has been a source of pride for decades, and we’ve long celebrated the many successes that have come from charting our own path. Looking ahead, I am excited about 2020 for many reasons, including our record hiring, continuing our track record of improvements and investments and most of all, getting to serve and advocate as your leader every day.

As always, please share with us your questions, ideas or concerns.

With respect,
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:25 pm

NWAESC wrote:
That’s the dumbest statistic.you noticed they didn’t say that on average a delta flight attendant earns XXx less than a UA flight attendant. Because they don’t. Delta has better cost containment, as it has build tools to be more efficient.


It's also possible that DL's FA's make less on average because it's a much more junior group comaparitively.


catiii wrote:
And once they’re organized, Reservations, ACS and TechOps should quickly follow.


Maybe the ramp, but I don't see much of an appetite for organizing in RES, TechOps, or even 125.

They are not a junior workforce.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:27 pm

lightsaber wrote:

There have been so many union drives for the DL FAs. Is there really any demand?

Lightsaber


We're about to find out. The IAM campaign has been on life support for months. Now we'll see if that apathy was simply a distaste for them, or a distaste for representation at all.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 344
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Im not so sure I would buy those #'s, unless they have another source. Can you provide a secondary source? So the union asks, and pays MIT to produce these #'s with a specific end result, do you really think it would come out any other way? Without secondary source of data, if you solely believe the MIT stats, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The unions have nothing to with the project. The project is one of the most respected out there.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

The U.S. commercial airline industry is one of the most diverse, dynamic and perplexing in the world. It is fast-evolving, labor intensive, capital intensive, hyper-competitive and highly susceptible to the ebb and flow of business cycles as well as being among the most regulated of deregulated businesses.

The Airline Data Project (ADP) was established by the MIT Global Airline Industry Program to better understand the opportunities, risks and challenges facing this vital industry. The ADP presents the most important airline industry data in one location in an easy-to-understand, user-friendly format.

The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure.

The ADP is designed to support the goals of the MIT Airline Industry Consortium. It is a unique repository of data and analysis that will allow individuals – from academia to the financial community to the news media – to monitor the evolution of the U.S. commercial airline industry.

The ADP is updated in June of each year pending the release of Form 41 data files by the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The last update of the ADP was in May 2018 for calendar year 2017 data. If you have questions about what items are included in various Form 41 data categories, you can refer to the U.S. DOT's Form 41 Financial Reporting Categories Item List Guide.

You are invited to review the data on this site and share your feedback on the wealth of information that is available about this highly visible industry.


I would still like to see secondary and even tertiary data on this. I mean, when you have a large purchase to make, or any large project your about to undertake, do you base your decisions solely on what you might read on the internet from one source (even it its a reliable source) or do you do a more comprehensive review? Plus, I would like to see some professional rebuttals to the MIT data. I am not sold.


What are you asking for, secondary and tertiary sources of the same data? Are you asking for someone to change the numbers? The data is the straight from USDOT. When you are making a decision don't you strive to base your decision on the most reliable source? If you already have the most reliable source why would you keep looking at less reliable sources? Numbers don't lie. I think what you are looking for is an interpretation of the data. There certainly could be multiple ways to explain why the data is what it is.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
No it goes to the shareholders


...Many of whom happen to be employees...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:33 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
They are not a junior workforce.


I said they might be comparatively. But I'm sure that someone like you who "allegedly" works at AA will be happy to show us (using data) how UA and DL stack up.

I'll also second what was mentioned earlier up the thread about junior F/A's being very pro labor in my experience.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:42 pm

EA CO AS wrote:

Regardless, this isn't about IAM - it's AFA that's coming after DL this time. IAM took their shot and missed.

And before you say anything about how IAM isn't finished there, if you're pro-union and pro-worker, you wouldn't care which union gets on the property.


^ALL OF THIS!!^
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:02 pm

Average Seniority is 19 years.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:11 pm

At which carrier? And how does that stack up with the others?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
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