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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:30 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
They rode out the waiting period. The IAM couldn't close the deal, and now the AFA has a shot. Again, if you're truly pro worker, you'll support DL FA's no matter which way they go.


This. It's time for the IAM to go pound sand and allow DL flight attendants the right to self-determination on which way they choose to go.

Not for you to decide.


Oh, but it’s ok for you to say DL inflight has a choice of the IAM or nothing?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
tpaewr
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:39 am

The problem the union is it changes the culture forever in ways that you don’t know before hand or measure.

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:44 am

tpaewr wrote:

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.


I can't think of a single group at CO that was non-union before the merger. Maybe res? Pilots, flight attendants, ramp etc were all unionized.

Edit: I'd forgotten that ramp joined IBT at the time of the merger, before moving to IAM once combined, but we're not organized until 2010.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:33 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

This. It's time for the IAM to go pound sand and allow DL flight attendants the right to self-determination on which way they choose to go.

Not for you to decide.


Oh, but it’s ok for you to say DL inflight has a choice of the IAM or nothing?

The AFLCIO Constitution says it, which the AFA has to abide by, specifically Article 21.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:35 am

tpaewr wrote:
The problem the union is it changes the culture forever in ways that you don’t know before hand or measure.

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.

Totally false. Before the merger CO’s pilots, flight attendants, ramp and mechanics were unionized.
 
n7371f
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:14 am

She may be that - but rest assured DAL will highlight her habit of focusing on non flight-attendant unions: teachers, electricians, etc...DAL will hammer the point that their potential leader has far greater interests and ambitions than them. And her social media history and news feed archive kind of backs that up. Do you want a direct relationship or do you want to be lead by someone who is more interested in larger AFL-CIO issues that have nothing to do with your job?

chepos wrote:
Sarah is a very charismatic, eloquent and sharp leader, that being said this will be an uphill battle. The DL spin machine will set the wheels in motion and make sure if this even gets to a vote fails one more time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:46 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Not for you to decide.


Oh, but it’s ok for you to say DL inflight has a choice of the IAM or nothing?

The AFLCIO Constitution says it, which the AFA has to abide by, specifically Article 21.


Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:49 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Oh, but it’s ok for you to say DL inflight has a choice of the IAM or nothing?

The AFLCIO Constitution says it, which the AFA has to abide by, specifically Article 21.


Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?

They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:53 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
The AFLCIO Constitution says it, which the AFA has to abide by, specifically Article 21.


Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?

They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf


If I'm a DL flight attendant, tell me, specifically, why I should be denied the right to join AFA if that's the union I want instead of the IAM? Who are you to tell the workgroup you can only have X union, not Y union?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:59 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
The AFLCIO Constitution says it, which the AFA has to abide by, specifically Article 21.


Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?

They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf


Your linked article states IAM had 18 months of exclusivity. That has expired. Also note the closing sentence:

If the IAM cannot succeed within this eighteen-month time period, competition in organizing may then be in the best interest of Delta flight attendants.

Wilma Liebman
Impartial Umpire


Looks like I'm not the only one who believes it may be time for the IAM to move on...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:10 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?

They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf


If I'm a DL flight attendant, tell me, specifically, why I should be denied the right to join AFA if that's the union I want instead of the IAM? Who are you to tell the workgroup you can only have X union, not Y union?

For the third time the AFA must adhere to the AFLCIO Constitution, that’s why. Rules are rules.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:12 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Evidently the AFA believes differently. But again, why do you care? If the goal is a union - any union - on the DL property, why does it have to be IAM?

They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf


Your linked article states IAM had 18 months of exclusivity. That has expired. Also note the closing sentence:

If the IAM cannot succeed within this eighteen-month time period, competition in organizing may then be in the best interest of Delta flight attendants.

Wilma Liebman
Impartial Umpire


Looks like I'm not the only one who believes it may be time for the IAM to move on...

Read the thread. The AFA never adhered to the period charges were filed again in June of 2018 and numerous times after with evidence submitted. The AFLCIO didn’t act till last month this has been explained. And the AFLCIO only permits one union to conduct an active campaign.

The AFLCIO sent a letter to the AFA last month to answer the subsequent charges and the AFA didn’t respond. That’s why.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:56 am

Sara Nelson cares about nothing beyond bringing in another large group of flight attendants (due$ dollar$) to replace the USAirways flight attendants, and in so doing, furthering her quest for a permanent position in the AFL-CIO bureaucracy.

AFA has already bankrupted itself, in part, by going after Delta twice and had to be saved by the CWA. Now they are going to throw away more of the members’ money to satisfy Sara Nelson’s ambitions.

The poaching of union activists amongst the Delta flight attendants by AFA will only end up dividing the work force even further, virtually guaranteeing another failed campaign.

Delta management, and the anti-union contingent amongst the flight attendant group, must be loving this.
 
global1
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:09 am

The IAM was not able, nor will it ever, deliver the goods. The perception of them by many was that they were too militant and anti-Delta and would have almost ensured an adversarial relationship with management.

I prefer the status quo. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

That being said, if one were to be forced upon me, I would rather have AFA.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:20 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
They rode out the waiting period. The IAM couldn't close the deal, and now the AFA has a shot. Again, if you're truly pro worker, you'll support DL FA's no matter which way they go.


This. It's time for the IAM to go pound sand and allow DL flight attendants the right to self-determination on which way they choose to go.

Not for you to decide.


I'm curious - what did the IAM accomplish during their period of exclusivity?
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:21 am

AFA is a great union.
 
IPFreely
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:17 am

LawAndOrder wrote:
Majority of UA and AA employees seem like they hate their employers.


As someone who flies UA a lot and AA a little, I've seen no evidence of this. There may be a disgruntled one or two, as there are in every big company, but the majority? Do you have any proof of this or are you just making stuff up?

I'm not a big fan of unions in general but this thread has revealed a lot of motivation for DL FA's to vote for a union:

1. DL FA's make less than their peers at UA, AA, and WN, while working for a company that brags about outperforming all their peers every quarter and ever year. That's enough to create a lot of votes for a union by itself.
2. Stories about FA's sleeping on the floor during IRROPS will cause some to want protection against this kind of treatment.
3. DL's outsourcing of international flying to JV partners (even in violation of the pilot's contract) will cause some to want their own protection against outsourcing.
4. Without a union FA's have no protection against outsourcing/contract workers; a look at the poor pay and recent benefit cuts for DGS/Argenbright employees is enough to cause some to want a contract to prevent this from happening to them.

This vote may go either way but it seems inevitable that DL FA's will vote for a union soon, if not now.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:12 am

IPFreely wrote:
3. DL's outsourcing of international flying to JV partners (even in violation of the pilot's contract) will cause some to want their own protection against outsourcing.


If I'm either union, this is the sole point I'm hammering home to DL inflight, as it's really the only one where one might reasonably show that DL employees are behind their peers at UA or AA where less flying is JV'd out to partners.

As for everything else, DL management can and will make a compelling case that the status quo has benefited the inflight group well so far and will continue to do so.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:28 am

EA CO AS wrote:

Your linked article states IAM had 18 months of exclusivity. That has expired. Also note the closing sentence:

If the IAM cannot succeed within this eighteen-month time period, competition in organizing may then be in the best interest of Delta flight attendants.

Wilma Liebman
Impartial Umpire


Looks like I'm not the only one who believes it may be time for the IAM to move on...


To me, this renders Article 21 moot. Anyone that still thinks the IAM should still have sole jurisdiction clearly has an ulterior motive.

EA CO AS wrote:

I'm curious - what did the IAM accomplish during their period of exclusivity?


Nothing, unfortunately. Time for them to focus on their other campaigns and cede this one.

millionsofmiles wrote:
The poaching of union activists amongst the Delta flight attendants by AFA will only end up dividing the work force even further, virtually guaranteeing another failed campaign.

Delta management, and the anti-union contingent amongst the flight attendant group, must be loving this.


Respectfully disagree. I think the point about "division" no longer exists. If there was clear/massive support for the IAM, that would be a different story and I would agree with you.

I also think DL mgmt. will take the AFA campaign a whole lot more seriously than they have the IAM one over the last year or so. My guess (and it's only that) is that they've spent the last 18 mos. getting ready for this.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:47 pm

If I were an AFA/IAM member at another airline, I wouldn't appreciate them continually wasting my dues just to lose another election at DL...

As they proven what 6-8 times now?, pmDL and post merger DL FAs are smart enough to know that they're much better off non-union than union. Sorry pmNW peeps, it just ain't happening
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:14 pm

The days of any IFS drive being a "NW thing" are long gone.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
CobaltScar
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:34 pm

tpaewr wrote:
The problem the union is it changes the culture forever in ways that you don’t know before hand or measure.

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.


OK then its 100 percent leadership's fault if a group does vote a Union in. If you pay below industry standard and have ridiculous stipulations like cleaning the planes, you are basically rolling out the red carpet for a Union.

Management ALWAYS gets the union it deserves and board of directors should take note.
 
apodino
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:22 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
They’ve already lost one arbitration in the matter and more charges were and have been filed. Rules are rules.

Because Article 21 states so.

http://xppoi1nm5s92xm932cfvmdqnr.wpengi ... nation.pdf


Your linked article states IAM had 18 months of exclusivity. That has expired. Also note the closing sentence:

If the IAM cannot succeed within this eighteen-month time period, competition in organizing may then be in the best interest of Delta flight attendants.

Wilma Liebman
Impartial Umpire


Looks like I'm not the only one who believes it may be time for the IAM to move on...

Read the thread. The AFA never adhered to the period charges were filed again in June of 2018 and numerous times after with evidence submitted. The AFLCIO didn’t act till last month this has been explained. And the AFLCIO only permits one union to conduct an active campaign.

The AFLCIO sent a letter to the AFA last month to answer the subsequent charges and the AFA didn’t respond. That’s why.


I have a huge problem with the way the AFL-CIO is behaving here. I get the AFL-CIO bylaws and to an extent I see where the AFL-CIO is coming from. That being said, the rule is flawed and what has happened as a result is at a number of airlines, unions who should not be representing certain groups because there are other unions that are more appropriate for their profession are the ones representing certain groups, and it is doing the membership a huge disservice. For example, at Jet Blue the Flight Attendants are represented by the TWU, which is a union that represents among others Subway workers and doesn't have many flight attendant groups. JetBlue would be far better off under AFA, a union which is solely flight attendants and actually understands flight attendants.

The most obvious example of why this rule is flawed can be seen at American Airlines. Legacy AA mechanics were represented by the aforementioned TWU and Legacy US mechanics by the IAM (the union fighting with the AFA over the Delta FAs). Rather than give the workers a say in which union would represent the mechanics going forward, Richard Trumka decided that the unions shouldn't fight each other and thus without any democratic input, put together the Association, which was certified by the NMB without a vote. I don't think there are but a handful of people at American Airlines today who would say that the association is representing them at all, and if you look five years after the merger, no groups represented by the association have a JCBA, and it seems like one group is stalling to benefit their guys at the expense of another. Much has been written about this in other threads.

As for the Delta FAs. I don't think being represented by a Union would change the culture too much. If you look at the way Delta hires, the people they hire fit into the culture. That wont change with a Union. The question the Delta FAs have to ask is, if stuff does go wrong in the future, would the company have their back or not? While Unions are flawed and not perfect, there are many protections that having a union would benefit, and for a group the size of the FAs, collectively bargaining is really the best way to go.

That also being said, let the FAs decide their own union, and honestly the AFL-CIOs actions here are going to do more harm than good at a time when Unions are resurging and having a more positive impact for their membership. My vote would be AFA if I were an FA. I do not think the IAM should be in the business of representing flight attendants, and you can ask the American Airlines workers what they think of the IAM.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:46 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
If I were an AFA/IAM member at another airline, I wouldn't appreciate them continually wasting my dues just to lose another election at DL...

As they proven what 6-8 times now?, pmDL and post merger DL FAs are smart enough to know that they're much better off non-union than union. Sorry pmNW peeps, it just ain't happening

Per the AFLCIO you have to spend xxx amount of money per year organizing
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:07 pm

That doesn't mean you have to piss it away, though.

Per the article you linked, the IAM is spending $1M/year on the FA campaign, and has 20 organizers dedicated to it.

Even after getting an extra 6 mos. of exclusivity above the norm (something you forgot to mention), they still don't have anything to show for it. There are countless other places/campaigns to direct those resources to.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
tpaewr
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:22 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
The problem the union is it changes the culture forever in ways that you don’t know before hand or measure.

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.

Totally false. Before the merger CO’s pilots, flight attendants, ramp and mechanics were unionized.


Jesus dude, relax!! Did I say the pilots were not?

No I said the work groups that weren’t. Which was basically any one you conveniently omitted. All airport CRS, all Res, and all Chelsea.

Post merger all of these work group have seen massive outsourcing.

I would love to hear from anyone who actually worked there before and after the union chime in.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:22 pm

Here is what’s going on:

First off, the IAM has what’s called jurisdiction for organizing the Delta FAs. That means that under the AFL-CIO rules; only one union can organize a group of employees at one one. The articles within the bylaws are a main premise of why the AFL even exists....they’re meant to prevent competition and create an environment of solidarity both in campaigns and in already represented groups.

History

Back in 2015 we started to notice that AFA President Sara Nelson was starting to communicate with and “poach” some of our activists by telling them that the IAM couldn’t win and trying to cozy them up to AFA. This was right after we were forced to pull our filing for an election. She was preying on their emotions. This eventually led to an underground anti IAM campaign by former activists. It got less “underground” so to speak and much more blatant to the point where we had so much evidence of AFA interference in our campaign that not only myself personally, but of course, members of the Grand Lodge spoke to Sara Nelson directly. Direct communications to resolve the matter did not work. Mediation was attempted. That did not work. After a long, drawn out process we eventually had an arbitration against AFA in DC where, based on the interference and breaking of the AFL-CIO bylaws; we requested a period of what’s called “exclusivity”. Typically, exclusivity is not a requirement when a union already has jurisdiction. Its rare. It’s requested to stop and resolve the interference of a sister union.

We did win the arbitration in April of 2017. The ruling was for 18 months of exclusivity. One of the longest in AFL history due to the severity of the interference.

Just a few months after the arbitration, it was clear that
AFA wasn’t complying with the ruling. At that point, we filed more charges and kept sending in evidence of interference and non-compliance. Unfortunately the AFL-CIO kept kicking the can down the road so to speak and didn’t make another ruling. The interference continued.

Current

Fast forward to just a few weeks ago, we sent in hundreds of pages of evidence that seemed to prompt the AFL into final action shortly before the ‘exclusivity’ period was about to expire. Our stance was that no period of exclusivity ever existed in practice and that the AFL needed to act to require AFA (at this point CWA) to comply with the arbitration...the bylaws/rules of the AFL. Require meaning force CWA to comply.

Complying would mean that CWA, AFA (President of AFA Nelson) should put in writing that AFA was disavowing interest in organizing the Delta Flight Attendants...that any AFA cards from Delta FAs would NOT be collected by AFA and that any sent would be forwarded to IAM headquarters and...and a statement should be given whereas AFA showed support for the IAM campaign and encouraged FAs to sign IAM cards.

The AFL-CIO responded by requiring information from both unions to hear their responses to particular questions before moving forward with another ruling. AFA requested a delay. The delayed date for the required response/information was Nov. 1.

On Nov. 1, AFA blatantly broke AFL-CIO rules and started a formal raid/campaign to represent the Delta FAs.

Now, it’s clear that we are no longer dealing with a case of interference/non-compliance that we have to prove. It’s a very public raid.

Future

It’s now up to the AFL-CIO to act. If they don’t condemn the AFA raid, sanction the CWA and force CWA and AFA to comply with the rules; they’ll not only be breaking the entire premise and reason for the AFL-CIO to exist as an organization but they’ll also be setting a very dangerous precedent whereas it’s free game for any union to raid another union...even outside of a campaign. The AFL might as well not even exist and solidarity within the labor movement will be ruined for many years to come.

Now, we wait to see what the AFL-CIO does so we can move forward.

I also know that many of you don’t care about any of this; you just want a union. However, please think about the gravity of this situation. Union Campaigns can’t be successful when started based on lying, subterfuge and blatant disregard for the solidarity of the labor movement.
 
Prost
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:31 pm

NWAESC wrote:
The days of any IFS drive being a "NW thing" are long gone.


We make up less than a quarter of the DL flight attendants.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:36 pm

...And all of this would be moot if the IAM could've sealed the deal...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:37 pm

Prost wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
The days of any IFS drive being a "NW thing" are long gone.


We make up less than a quarter of the DL flight attendants.



I believe it- yet the myth persists.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:40 pm

The results in 2010 were extremely tight. Almost 50-50.

"Among Delta’s nearly 20,000 flight attendants, 9,544 voted against joining the union, the Association of Flight Attendants, while 9,216 voted for a union."

It has been 9 years since then. Every time they vote it gets closer and closer. It all depends on what kind of new hires they have hired since 2010 and also on how many pro-union flight attendants have been fired or left since then.
 
Prost
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:59 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Prost wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
The days of any IFS drive being a "NW thing" are long gone.


We make up less than a quarter of the DL flight attendants.



I believe it- yet the myth persists.


I believe by the end of next year over 50% of DL FAs will be post merger hires.
 
flyboy80
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:11 pm

It will be a hard win. Delta has the upper hand in this matter and control the majority of the message to FA's. Just recently memos from IFS have been pushed to FAs disparaging AFA as "at it again" and that "Delta flight attendants" have said no four times...the fact is, a huge population of the FA group has never voted in an election given the last one was in 2010 and Delta, and all airlines, have hired extensively since 2011. Delta is also hiring many new classes over the next year and it's well known that during that 7 week initial training Delta holds an "optional" luncheon with "Facts on representation"

Sara Nelson never poached any activists from the IAM, thats a crock of you know what. Sara Nelson was harassed endlessly by former IAM activists that got an inside look at the corruption and lack of interest by IAM and that desired a real campaign and a return to AFA advocacy for the FA group. Flight Attendants were so disgruntled when Sara couldn't help us in 2017 because the IAM barring AFA. IAM has been a terrible advocate for Delta FAs. But because they've invested tons of money in the ramp campaign they're still hoping to get the FAs too. The problem is FA's do not want the IAM or their leaders, the support, especially amongst the younger junior FAs is for AFA. AFA was never after Delta flight attendants, Delta flight attendants have always been after AFA as evidenced by history.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 538
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:19 pm

You'd be surprised by how pro-union younger people are. If the result was pretty much 50-50 in 2010, no one knows what's going to happen now with many thousands of new hires since then.

Younger people can see through the propaganda.
 
cessna2
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:33 pm

From my understanding of what i've read on AFA's site, and seen posted on social media from friends, 48% of the current work group has never voted. 11,000 FAs have been hired at DL since the last vote during the merger in 2010. So my question is, how can anyone say AFA has been voted down by the majority when almost half the work group has never voted? Things change as do companies. We see companies across the country vie to produce big returns for shareholders and executives while minimally increasing benefits and pay for the workers who produce those results. Maybe, just maybe, the younger generation and those 11,000 hired since 2010 are ready to take control of their futures and ensure they are treated equally like their executives who have contracts themselves.

Concerning the IAM and their exclusivity. I read the ruling from the link provided. It seems that the AFL-CIO will end up ruling in favor of AFA and against IAM. 18 months is a long time to have a work group solely under your jurisdiction. Yet nothing has come from it. What people tend to forget is Federal law trumps any article 21. It clearly states that you can sign a card for any union you want. Whether IAM or AFA or TWU etc. has jurisdiction. I almost wish the NMB would hold elections so FA's could chose which union they want to organize them versus leaving it up to union bosses to fight over. That would squash fighting between different unions as no one would be able to argue with the majority.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:34 pm

tpaewr wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
The problem the union is it changes the culture forever in ways that you don’t know before hand or measure.

Talk to almost any CO work group that was non union before the merger and they will tell you it isn’t worth it.


All that glitters isn’t gold.

Totally false. Before the merger CO’s pilots, flight attendants, ramp and mechanics were unionized.


Jesus dude, relax!! Did I say the pilots were not?

No I said the work groups that weren’t. Which was basically any one you conveniently omitted. All airport CRS, all Res, and all Chelsea.

Post merger all of these work group have seen massive outsourcing.


I would love to hear from anyone who actually worked there before and after the union chime in.

CSA, and Res were certainly unionized after the merger as PMUA was.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:36 pm

Prost wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Prost wrote:

We make up less than a quarter of the DL flight attendants.



I believe it- yet the myth persists.


I believe by the end of next year over 50% of DL FAs will be post merger hires.

50% are above 19 years and 50% are below.
 
Prost
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:39 pm

I was judging my numbers based upon announced 2020 hiring. Of course, that doesn’t account for attrition, which I don’t know those numbers.
 
cokepopper
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:46 pm

If anyone is interested in how this vote will go, just look towards ATL. I believe most bases are “for” except most likely ATL and CVG. However ATL has many new hires and the solid NO votes have retired/passed away (since not many retire). 2020 looks to be the year F/A’s vote in a union.
 
flyboy80
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:10 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:08 pm

I would say at least one-third of “senior” people (over 28 years) are no votes in many bases, surprisingly SEA and MSP. From what I’ve gathered, it’s often politically motivated- their husband is a hardcore republican and therefore they have an anti-union mindset and don’t understand that many republicans ARE union members. Then you have another one-third who are kind of apathetic. I expect if there is a vote a surprising amount of the inflight group will not vote- not sure which side that will hurt most.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:26 pm

UPDATE: IAM-AFA AFL-CIO DISPUTE

IAM General Vice President Sito Pantoja issued the following statement today:

"The IAM stands 100 percent behind Delta Flight Attendants’ long struggle to gain collective bargaining rights and will continue to support your historic effort. The AFL-CIO had awarded the IAM with exclusivity and was in the process of investigating whether the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) was in non-compliance with that award. AFA was aware of this investigation and participated in the process. Nevertheless, they moved forward before it was completed. This process is yet to be resolved by the AFL-CIO and is still pending.

As we said on Friday, we are deeply concerned and disappointed that the AFA would launch a campaign while this dispute is still unresolved. We hope that once this matter is resolved that all parties abide by the AFL-CIO’s determination and that all Delta Flight Attendants unify around the singular goal of forming a union and negotiating the industry-leading contract you very much deserve.

The IAM has steadfastly supported Delta Flight Attendants’ efforts to gain IAM representation for almost seven years now, and is committed as ever to bringing this campaign to a successful conclusion."

Request your a-card today: www.iamdelta.net/acard/
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:32 pm

If I was a Delta flight attendant, I would ask the following question to Sara:
____________________________________________________________

A QUESTION FOR SARA

It’s no secret that the AFA has been interfering in the IAM Delta campaign as far back as 2015. That’s why the IAM had to initiate Article XXI proceedings at the AFL-CIO in late 2017 and won the longest “exclusivity” award in AFL-CIO history in early 2018.

The REASON why the IAM won the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants is because Sara didn’t do the right thing and stop the organizing that was being done by the so-called “grassroots” campaign. The sad fact is, she supported and directed this interference AND HAS NEVER STOPPED IT.

So, here we are. Never more divided.

The real question is, what will Sara do if the AFL-CIO steps in and rules that the IAM’s period of exclusivity never began because the AFA never stopped interfering? Will she give a BIG FU to the AFL-CIO and the over 12 million members who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign. Will she give a BIG FU to the 4.5 million members of International Transport Worker’s Federation who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign?

Or, will she do what any TRUE UNION LEADER would do and stop the raid and support the IAM Delta campaign?

What would the current AFA supporters do? If we win at the AFL-CIO, will you unify with us and FINALLY gain the representation we so deserve?

That’s the real question that Sara needs to answer.
 
apodino
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:01 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
If I was a Delta flight attendant, I would ask the following question to Sara:
____________________________________________________________

A QUESTION FOR SARA

It’s no secret that the AFA has been interfering in the IAM Delta campaign as far back as 2015. That’s why the IAM had to initiate Article XXI proceedings at the AFL-CIO in late 2017 and won the longest “exclusivity” award in AFL-CIO history in early 2018.

The REASON why the IAM won the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants is because Sara didn’t do the right thing and stop the organizing that was being done by the so-called “grassroots” campaign. The sad fact is, she supported and directed this interference AND HAS NEVER STOPPED IT.

So, here we are. Never more divided.

The real question is, what will Sara do if the AFL-CIO steps in and rules that the IAM’s period of exclusivity never began because the AFA never stopped interfering? Will she give a BIG FU to the AFL-CIO and the over 12 million members who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign. Will she give a BIG FU to the 4.5 million members of International Transport Worker’s Federation who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign?

Or, will she do what any TRUE UNION LEADER would do and stop the raid and support the IAM Delta campaign?

What would the current AFA supporters do? If we win at the AFL-CIO, will you unify with us and FINALLY gain the representation we so deserve?

That’s the real question that Sara needs to answer.


No she doesn’t. My question to the afl-cio is....why can’t the membership pick their own union to vote for rather than have the choice dictated to them by unelected insiders? The real question for Sara should be, are you willing to take the AFL-CIO to court over this? I hope she is. If I was a flight attendant I do want AFA representing me and no one else and I would be willing to vote down the IAM and wait two years if necessary to make it happen. All you do is defend the rule and by taking this action you show that you do not have the Delta flight attendants best interests in mind, only the IAM.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2070
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
If I was a Delta flight attendant, I would ask the following question to Sara:
____________________________________________________________

A QUESTION FOR SARA

It’s no secret that the AFA has been interfering in the IAM Delta campaign as far back as 2015. That’s why the IAM had to initiate Article XXI proceedings at the AFL-CIO in late 2017 and won the longest “exclusivity” award in AFL-CIO history in early 2018.

The REASON why the IAM won the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants is because Sara didn’t do the right thing and stop the organizing that was being done by the so-called “grassroots” campaign. The sad fact is, she supported and directed this interference AND HAS NEVER STOPPED IT.

So, here we are. Never more divided.

The real question is, what will Sara do if the AFL-CIO steps in and rules that the IAM’s period of exclusivity never began because the AFA never stopped interfering? Will she give a BIG FU to the AFL-CIO and the over 12 million members who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign. Will she give a BIG FU to the 4.5 million members of International Transport Worker’s Federation who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign?

Or, will she do what any TRUE UNION LEADER would do and stop the raid and support the IAM Delta campaign?

What would the current AFA supporters do? If we win at the AFL-CIO, will you unify with us and FINALLY gain the representation we so deserve?

That’s the real question that Sara needs to answer.


And obviously you are not a Delta flight attendant, so you need not ask any questions of Sara Nelson. You need to take your comments elsewhere. If you worked with Delta flight attendants everyday, you would understand the IAM has no support amongst Delta flight attendants and that AFA is by far the stronger campaign. Even if the 2015 filing "mishap" where IAM retreated without being disqualified didn't take place, I have a strong feeling the IAM doesn't resonate with this contemporary group of Delta flight attendants and IAM organizing exclusivity would only further hurt the workgroup. The IAM can't get to a vote, without alleged fraud anyway. It's not going to happen IAM, bounce.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1473
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:22 pm

I would say the continued exclusivity has already hurt the workgroup.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
cessna2
Posts: 393
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:20 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
UPDATE: IAM-AFA AFL-CIO DISPUTE

IAM General Vice President Sito Pantoja issued the following statement today:

"The IAM stands 100 percent behind Delta Flight Attendants’ long struggle to gain collective bargaining rights and will continue to support your historic effort. The AFL-CIO had awarded the IAM with exclusivity and was in the process of investigating whether the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) was in non-compliance with that award. AFA was aware of this investigation and participated in the process. Nevertheless, they moved forward before it was completed. This process is yet to be resolved by the AFL-CIO and is still pending.

As we said on Friday, we are deeply concerned and disappointed that the AFA would launch a campaign while this dispute is still unresolved. We hope that once this matter is resolved that all parties abide by the AFL-CIO’s determination and that all Delta Flight Attendants unify around the singular goal of forming a union and negotiating the industry-leading contract you very much deserve.

The IAM has steadfastly supported Delta Flight Attendants’ efforts to gain IAM representation for almost seven years now, and is committed as ever to bringing this campaign to a successful conclusion."

Request your a-card today: http://www.iamdelta.net/acard/

Nothing to see here folks. Just a bunch of "unionists" beating their chests and yelling, "I'm better and you're going to believe it!"
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:37 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
If I was a Delta flight attendant, I would ask the following question to Sara:
____________________________________________________________

A QUESTION FOR SARA

It’s no secret that the AFA has been interfering in the IAM Delta campaign as far back as 2015. That’s why the IAM had to initiate Article XXI proceedings at the AFL-CIO in late 2017 and won the longest “exclusivity” award in AFL-CIO history in early 2018.

The REASON why the IAM won the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants is because Sara didn’t do the right thing and stop the organizing that was being done by the so-called “grassroots” campaign. The sad fact is, she supported and directed this interference AND HAS NEVER STOPPED IT.

So, here we are. Never more divided.

The real question is, what will Sara do if the AFL-CIO steps in and rules that the IAM’s period of exclusivity never began because the AFA never stopped interfering? Will she give a BIG FU to the AFL-CIO and the over 12 million members who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign. Will she give a BIG FU to the 4.5 million members of International Transport Worker’s Federation who have endorsed the IAM Delta campaign?

Or, will she do what any TRUE UNION LEADER would do and stop the raid and support the IAM Delta campaign?

What would the current AFA supporters do? If we win at the AFL-CIO, will you unify with us and FINALLY gain the representation we so deserve?

That’s the real question that Sara needs to answer.


Frankly, all the AFL-CIO would do by forcing AFA to back off is piss off a bunch of millenials that don't appreciate the old school telling them how they have to do things. It doesn't serve anyone to follow down this path when it's become clear that the overwhelming support for a FA union at DL is for AFA, not IAM. IAM has squandered away opportunities to bring a legal, legitimate vote to fruition. You may care more about the precedent it sets for members of AFL-CIO but, if you're actually a true unionist, you should be more concerned that the IAM will never successfully unite the DL FA's under their union - it's time to just back off and the AFA organize the DL FA's so that they can get on with the business of solidifying an industry leading contract that will ultimately lift all other airlines FA's.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:56 am

Amen.

It’s been very interesting to see some so called “trade unionists” show their true colors over the last couple of days.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:22 am

I think this thread demonstrates why a lot of people don't like unions. The bickering back and forth has little to do with the welfare of Delta FAs and more about who is gonna "win" another group. Seriously

I find the whole notion of 'corporations throwing propaganda out and that being the only reason DL FAs aren't unionized' insulting. Of course DL is gonna spin it their way (the unions do too, just look at any press release they put out with their overly dramatic language) but the FAs aren't stupid. They know DL is gonna spin it, if they don't vote in a union, it's largely their informed choice.

Their choice. Which brings us to this... The whole back and forth between IAM and AFA is looking petty and again, like they only care about winning more members.

Best of luck to the DL FAs. IAM seems like a soup sandwich, maybe they can give AFA a try after IAM's million year exclusivity period. If they vote in the union, hopefully they can gain protections but preserve a good relation with management.

If they don't unionize, I hope posters here are less condescending and realize that many FAs just don't want it (not because they're dumb and just listening to DL or their husbands, geez.) There isn't some complex reason, not everyone wants to be unionized
 
Detroit313
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:37 am

In 2010 every single base except for Atlanta voted YES.

The vote was extremely tight so no one knows what's going to happen now almost 10 years later.

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