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alfa164
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:07 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think this thread demonstrates why a lot of people don't like unions. The bickering back and forth has little to do with the welfare of Delta FAs and more about who is gonna "win" another group. Seriously

I find the whole notion of 'corporations throwing propaganda out and that being the only reason DL FAs aren't unionized' insulting. Of course DL is gonna spin it their way (the unions do too, just look at any press release they put out with their overly dramatic language) but the FAs aren't stupid. They know DL is gonna spin it, if they don't vote in a union, it's largely their informed choice.

Their choice. Which brings us to this... The whole back and forth between IAM and AFA is looking petty and again, like they only care about winning more members.

Best of luck to the DL FAs. IAM seems like a soup sandwich, maybe they can give AFA a try after IAM's million year exclusivity period. If they vote in the union, hopefully they can gain protections but preserve a good relation with management.

If they don't unionize, I hope posters here are less condescending and realize that many FAs just don't want it (not because they're dumb and just listening to DL or their husbands, geez.) There isn't some complex reason, not everyone wants to be unionized


You sensible analysis and logical presentation is totally out of place in this mud-wrestling contest.

cessna2 wrote:
Nothing to see here folks. Just a bunch of "unionists" beating their chests and yelling, "I'm better and you're going to believe it!"


And, interestingly, the most prolific poster on this thread appears to have joined A.net only two months ago - apparently just to shill for the IAM.

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:31 am

Imagine that!
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:11 pm

Sara Nelson is at DTW today for a townhall and Delta flight attendants welcomed her like she is a rockstar.

I spoke to several flight attendants at DTW and they all seem fed up and don't care if they get threatening emails and phone calls from supervisors for attending the town hall and signing cards.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:30 pm

“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:18 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL


No one claimed that several is a big sample. Several means several.
 
cessna2
Posts: 372
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:33 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL

She was in ATL Friday and Saturday and received the same welcome! When managers came up to scout out who was there she would walk up to them and introduce herself and hug them. She truly is about working together with management, not trying to "fight" them like other unions vying for our work group.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:12 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson is at DTW today for a townhall and Delta flight attendants welcomed her like she is a rockstar.

I spoke to several flight attendants at DTW and they all seem fed up and don't care if they get threatening emails and phone calls from supervisors for attending the town hall and signing cards.


I wonder how many were there out of peer pressure and were just putting on an act? I bet that would be quite a few.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:13 pm

I love lamp—

Maybe, but that reception speaks volumes.

Also anecdotal, but my social media feeds continue to be chock full of F/As excited about this latest development. It’s almost like they’ve been marking time until the exclusivity period was over.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:14 pm

cessna2 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL

She was in ATL Friday and Saturday and received the same welcome! When managers came up to scout out who was there she would walk up to them and introduce herself and hug them. She truly is about working together with management, not trying to "fight" them like other unions vying for our work group.


Sounds like an open and shut case for DL FA's to unionize. Slam dunk even. I'll believe it when I see it and I will cross my fingers that they dont unionize, otherwise DL will be just another crappy airline. Nothing pits employee against employer more than a union. Sad days are ahead for DL.
 
flyboy80
Posts: 2036
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:40 pm

How will having a union be the sole reason to affect the quality of the relationship between DL and it's workers? The relationship is highly influenced by how management works with the flight attendants, that applies to with or without representation. Alaska Flight Attendants are AFA members and Alaska Airlines has won the JD Power award how many times? Maybe if Delta put its money where its mouth has been over the past ten years, and kept the FAs at the top, they wouldn't be in this position. The fact is Delta FAs work rules are terrible, benefits are nothing special, and they're at the whim of management to decide what's best for them. Have you ever been on a Delta plane and seen how they've densified the entire fleet and the FAs are required to provide more service to more passengers out of tiny reconfigured galleys. It shows the lack of respect the company truly has for what the flight attendants do.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:53 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson is at DTW today for a townhall and Delta flight attendants welcomed her like she is a rockstar.

I spoke to several flight attendants at DTW and they all seem fed up and don't care if they get threatening emails and phone calls from supervisors for attending the town hall and signing cards.


I wonder how many were there out of peer pressure and were just putting on an act? I bet that would be quite a few.



Pressure by who? You realize that they put their job in danger by being there by Sara Nelson? Managers and supervisors are constantly watching.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:01 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson is at DTW today for a townhall and Delta flight attendants welcomed her like she is a rockstar.

I spoke to several flight attendants at DTW and they all seem fed up and don't care if they get threatening emails and phone calls from supervisors for attending the town hall and signing cards.


I wonder how many were there out of peer pressure and were just putting on an act? I bet that would be quite a few.



Pressure by who? You realize that they put their job in danger by being there by Sara Nelson? Managers and supervisors are constantly watching.


that culture is exactly why they need a union. management following employees around to see what they believe. that's creepy and cult like.

good luck to DL F/A's.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8038
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:01 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
How will having a union be the sole reason to affect the quality of the relationship between DL and it's workers? The relationship is highly influenced by how management works with the flight attendants, that applies to with or without representation. Alaska Flight Attendants are AFA members and Alaska Airlines has won the JD Power award how many times? Maybe if Delta put its money where its mouth has been over the past ten years, and kept the FAs at the top, they wouldn't be in this position. The fact is Delta FAs work rules are terrible, benefits are nothing special, and they're at the whim of management to decide what's best for them. Have you ever been on a Delta plane and seen how they've densified the entire fleet and the FAs are required to provide more service to more passengers out of tiny reconfigured galleys. It shows the lack of respect the company truly has for what the flight attendants do.


This. It's been said before that management get the union they deserve.

If Delta FAs had work rules comparable (I'm not even saying the same, just more comparable) to those in the United contract then there would probably be a lot less motivation to organize. Instead they have work rules that are among the worse in the industry. Delta management seem to think that "culture" and profit sharing compensates for this, and no doubt a lot of FAs are satisfied with their job. However, winning over the undedciced and swinging votes would have been much easier if Delta management hadn't been so greedy with work rules, and also medical, over the past 10 years. That was a strategic blunder IMHO. Delta management could care less about the impact a union will have on culture, but are well aware that a contract would impact on flight attendant productivity due to stronger work rule protection, and know that this will raise costs. They should have got ahead of the curve after the 2010 vote was 51-49, knowing that only a few hundred votes could change the outcome.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
santi319
Posts: 884
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:09 pm

So basically cabin crews from the entire aviation industry in the US are wrong and DL the company is right?

Say that with a straight face.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:09 pm

jumbojet wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL

She was in ATL Friday and Saturday and received the same welcome! When managers came up to scout out who was there she would walk up to them and introduce herself and hug them. She truly is about working together with management, not trying to "fight" them like other unions vying for our work group.


Sounds like an open and shut case for DL FA's to unionize. Slam dunk even. I'll believe it when I see it and I will cross my fingers that they dont unionize, otherwise DL will be just another crappy airline. Nothing pits employee against employer more than a union. Sad days are ahead for DL.

So their pilots are crappy? Biggest unionized group at DL. The group being the dispatchers, do they give crappy flight plans?
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:20 pm

Let us not forget the title of this thread, AFA TRYING....As of now, there is NO union for DL FA's. Lets hope they never get one. There is a reason why they are happier than their counterparts at UA and AA, who, happen to have unions. I mean, you would think it would be the other way around...

So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that. Your getting your hopes up for nothing
 
cessna2
Posts: 372
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:27 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Let us not forget the title of this thread, AFA TRYING....As of now, there is NO union for DL FA's. Lets hope they never get one. There is a reason why they are happier than their counterparts at UA and AA, who, happen to have unions. I mean, you would think it would be the other way around...

So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that. Your getting your hopes up for nothing

I seem to remember reading that AS has won JD Power what, 11 consecutive years now? So those horrible union represented employees must be paying JD Power for the award. There is absolutely no way under your statement that they can win that on their own.

Your culture has nothing to do with being organized or not. It's how you train the people and whether or not you treat your employees with respect equally across the board. Union busting 101. Treat the Pro-company employees like gold so the pro-company and pro-union/pro-workers rights employees look like the bad guys. Never mind the management who purposely pits the two groups against one another. No management has our backs always... *insert eye roll*
 
cokepopper
Posts: 500
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 pm

The outside opinions are interesting.
Just one take and one question.
The AFA movement is very real. Don’t underestimate them. Prior to the Nov. 1 announcement, I’ve never seen so many f/a’s wearing AFA pins.
Also, why do some of the outsiders here feel that the Delta pilots should have a union and not the flight attendants? Are you advocating for them to ditch their union? Will they be “happier” ?
 
panamair
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:06 pm

cessna2 wrote:
Never mind the management who purposely pits the two groups against one another. No management has our backs always... *insert eye roll*


Never mind the unions who purposely pit the employees against the company? The very existence of a union is dependent on fanning employees' 'anger' against management and instilling divisiveness.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:11 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Let us not forget the title of this thread, AFA TRYING....As of now, there is NO union for DL FA's. Lets hope they never get one. There is a reason why they are happier than their counterparts at UA and AA, who, happen to have unions. I mean, you would think it would be the other way around...

So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that. Your getting your hopes up for nothing


I suggest that you look at the contracts of AA and United. When it comes to health insurance costs, sick policy, sick time, amount of vacation, vacation pay, minimum daily guarantee pay, reserve, retirement contributions, quality of trips, pay protection rules for cancellations and schedule disruptions, pay protections during irregular operations, staffing requirements and the list goes on and on, United and American have it way better.

Saying that DL flight attendants are happier is simply not true. It is the fact that have no voice and you never hear any collective complaints from them that makes it look like they are happier. Flight attendants at unionized carriers are not afraid to complain about things they don't like. At DL they are afraid. That's why you get the perception that they are "happy". You can be happy, but still fight for better work rules. For many on here, lack of a voice and silence equals happiness. it appears.
 
panamair
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:28 pm

cokepopper wrote:
The outside opinions are interesting.
Just one take and one question.
The AFA movement is very real. Don’t underestimate them. Prior to the Nov. 1 announcement, I’ve never seen so many f/a’s wearing AFA pins.
Also, why do some of the outsiders here feel that the Delta pilots should have a union and not the flight attendants? Are you advocating for them to ditch their union? Will they be “happier” ?


As an 'outsider' who has flown millions of miles on Delta for almost three decades, and still do on a weekly basis, I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what this will do to the company's service culture. You can call me irrational, but I have noticed and appreciated the Delta difference especially inflight, over the years; I say this as I am also a million miler on UA and a 4 million miler on AA, that the inflight experience IS generally better on Delta than on UA or AA, and I do strongly believe a lot of that has been driven by the absence of divisiveness between the front-line employees and management. Many unions however, thrive on instilling divisiveness between employees and management, as their very existence depends on this divisiveness. It is this potential for divisiveness that I most fear, when bringing a union into one of the most visible and high-impact front-line employee groups.
 
flyboy80
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:33 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Let us not forget the title of this thread, AFA TRYING....As of now, there is NO union for DL FA's. Lets hope they never get one. There is a reason why they are happier than their counterparts at UA and AA, who, happen to have unions. I mean, you would think it would be the other way around...

So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that. Your getting your hopes up for nothing


I suggest that you look at the contracts of AA and United. When it comes to health insurance costs, sick policy, sick time, amount of vacation, vacation pay, minimum daily guarantee pay, reserve, retirement contributions, quality of trips, pay protection rules for cancellations and schedule disruptions, pay protections during irregular operations, staffing requirements and the list goes on and on, United and American have it way better.

Saying that DL flight attendants are happier is simply not true. It is the fact that have no voice and you never hear any collective complaints from them that makes it look like they are happier. Flight attendants at unionized carriers are not afraid to complain about things they don't like. At DL they are afraid. That's why you get the perception that they are "happy". You can be happy, but still fight for better work rules. For many on here, lack of a voice and silence equals happiness. it appears.


Very true. Back in the early 2010s when the massive profits were ramping up and the merger was wrapped up, it was very, very common to hear PMDL FA exclaim "I'm just so happy to have a job" as if they were gifted something by Delta management. There was this expectation amongst them, and still is for some, although quite less than once was, they need be grateful or else. It's really quite sad and far from an open work culture. Delta IFS ran a notorious Facebook group for a few years (before it was shut down) called "IFS 360" for flight attendants on the mainstream Facebook platform. Flight Attendants would often use this page to address concerns. It was not uncommon for moderators of this facebook page to delete pro-union comments or comments that weren't favorable on management despite the company's continuous touting of it's benevolent "direct relationship." There were often threads about how AA and UA Flight Attendants are jealous and want to be Delta and that we're better, it was always spin spin spin and many of the group seemed to, rather unhealthily, believe it and worship it. People would bring up concerns like the the fact that PMDL FAs have a social security offset that takes a large part of their retirement and how they desire the profitable company to invest to "offset the offset" in some way, they would be shamed and told to quit or go work somewhere else if they didn't have something nice to say by their own peers. It seems like an incredibly toxic work culture, but to some extent it's worked over the years I guess- ignorance is bliss they say. Delta FAs have been pushed down for years and taught to keep their head down and not dissent or complain and regardless of how positive and inclusive Sara Nelson can be she will be up against this old fashioned mindset to some extent.
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:40 pm

jumbojet wrote:
So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that.


I wouldn't underestimate the significance of that.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:51 pm

santi319 wrote:
So basically cabin crews from the entire aviation industry in the US are wrong and DL the company is right?

Say that with a straight face.

DL is a very strong company with a above average culture and giving a lot of profit sharing. So perhaps yes, DL is an exception to the rule.

We will see soon, the FAs themselves will answer your question, not you or I or any of us random a.net posters.

Hopefully people will respect their decision, even if they don't unionize (the FAs aren't stupid, they can make their own choice.) Either way, I wish them the best, seems like many of us are arguing to win rather than help the FAs out
 
tpaewr
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:09 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Totally false. Before the merger CO’s pilots, flight attendants, ramp and mechanics were unionized.


Jesus dude, relax!! Did I say the pilots were not?

No I said the work groups that weren’t. Which was basically any one you conveniently omitted. All airport CRS, all Res, and all Chelsea.

Post merger all of these work group have seen massive outsourcing.


I would love to hear from anyone who actually worked there before and after the union chime in.

CSA, and Res were certainly unionized after the merger as PMUA was.



I know that, the point is most those sCO employees would have kept what they had over being unionized.
 
n7371f
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:17 am

Former NWA union heavy hub. In a city long ruled and run by unions. Got anything else?

Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson is at DTW today for a townhall and Delta flight attendants welcomed her like she is a rockstar.

I spoke to several flight attendants at DTW and they all seem fed up and don't care if they get threatening emails and phone calls from supervisors for attending the town hall and signing cards.
 
n7371f
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:18 am

seconded.

panamair wrote:
cokepopper wrote:
The outside opinions are interesting.
Just one take and one question.
The AFA movement is very real. Don’t underestimate them. Prior to the Nov. 1 announcement, I’ve never seen so many f/a’s wearing AFA pins.
Also, why do some of the outsiders here feel that the Delta pilots should have a union and not the flight attendants? Are you advocating for them to ditch their union? Will they be “happier” ?


As an 'outsider' who has flown millions of miles on Delta for almost three decades, and still do on a weekly basis, I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what this will do to the company's service culture. You can call me irrational, but I have noticed and appreciated the Delta difference especially inflight, over the years; I say this as I am also a million miler on UA and a 4 million miler on AA, that the inflight experience IS generally better on Delta than on UA or AA, and I do strongly believe a lot of that has been driven by the absence of divisiveness between the front-line employees and management. Many unions however, thrive on instilling divisiveness between employees and management, as their very existence depends on this divisiveness. It is this potential for divisiveness that I most fear, when bringing a union into one of the most visible and high-impact front-line employee groups.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:41 am

panamair wrote:
As an 'outsider' who has flown millions of miles on Delta for almost three decades, and still do on a weekly basis, I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what this will do to the company's service culture. You can call me irrational, but I have noticed and appreciated the Delta difference especially inflight, over the years; I say this as I am also a million miler on UA and a 4 million miler on AA, that the inflight experience IS generally better on Delta than on UA or AA, and I do strongly believe a lot of that has been driven by the absence of divisiveness between the front-line employees and management. Many unions however, thrive on instilling divisiveness between employees and management, as their very existence depends on this divisiveness. It is this potential for divisiveness that I most fear, when bringing a union into one of the most visible and high-impact front-line employee groups.


Don't be worried. Cultures aren't made by unions or the lack thereof, and their existence certainly isn't dependent on a divisive relationship with management. I haven't noticed any correlation with union/non-union, just the opposite. I get the same inconsistent, too-often disappointing service on DL as I get on UA or AA; nothing that matches the gushing opinions you read online. WN beats the pants off of all of the other big 4, and they're as union as they come. If DL's culture changes because of the presence of a union, then the culture was weak to start with. There's division at DL, no doubt. And who knows, it may change for the better if a union is voted in. Maybe employees will finally feel like they have a voice in their future and feel more comforted instead of fearful. I hope it would turn out this way because in my experiences DL's service is nothing to crow about. They could use a huge dose of a better culture, like say WN's.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:04 am

Do those who say unions equal bad and rude employees realize that the flight attendants of every single major airline in the US are unionized except for Delta? Is the entire industry bad compared to DL flight attendants? Please. Are Southwest and Alaska flight attendants rude? They are the nicest in the industry. By far better than Delta flight attendants.

You would think Delta management has created those accounts to post things like that.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:30 am

I don't have a horse in this race and there are many pros and cons to union membership. Natural there is going to be propaganda coming from both sides during this campaign.

From a customer perspective, I think many of us in pmNW hubs remember how militant, openly hostile, and nasty the NW FAs were back in the day and don't want to see a repeat of that ever again. Our view is jaded by that and its hard to differentiate how much of that was the NW "culture" or because of labor vs. management dynamic that existed at NW.

Not saying that it would necessarily be the case with DL, but post-merger DL FA service and general demeanor is far, far, superior to what we had with NW 10-15 years ago.
 
IPFreely
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:41 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Sounds like an open and shut case for DL FA's to unionize. Slam dunk even. I'll believe it when I see it and I will cross my fingers that they dont unionize, otherwise DL will be just another crappy airline. Nothing pits employee against employer more than a union. Sad days are ahead for DL.

So their pilots are crappy? Biggest unionized group at DL. The group being the dispatchers, do they give crappy flight plans?


I don't think he is aware that dispatchers or pilots are unionized.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:43 am

Nothing like a union thread on A.net

How you manage determines if a union is brought in. We will see if Delta management is treating employees well or if they are going to have to deal with the consequences.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:38 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Sounds like an open and shut case for DL FA's to unionize. Slam dunk even. I'll believe it when I see it and I will cross my fingers that they dont unionize, otherwise DL will be just another crappy airline. Nothing pits employee against employer more than a union. Sad days are ahead for DL.

So their pilots are crappy? Biggest unionized group at DL. The group being the dispatchers, do they give crappy flight plans?


I don't think he is aware that dispatchers or pilots are unionized.


Or that they run a subsidiary company with 2 unionized groups as well, including FAs
From my cold, dead hands
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 316
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:23 pm

cessna2 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL

She was in ATL Friday and Saturday and received the same welcome! When managers came up to scout out who was there she would walk up to them and introduce herself and hug them. She truly is about working together with management, not trying to "fight" them like other unions vying for our work group.


Sara Nelson is more about photo ops and promoting herself than about producing for her members.
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:29 pm

NWAESC wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that.


I wouldn't underestimate the significance of that.


and I wouldn't read to much into it either,
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:32 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Do those who say unions equal bad and rude employees realize that the flight attendants of every single major airline in the US are unionized except for Delta? Is the entire industry bad compared to DL flight attendants? Please. Are Southwest and Alaska flight attendants rude? They are the nicest in the industry. By far better than Delta flight attendants.

You would think Delta management has created those accounts to post things like that.


they're not global airlines \. Your not comparing apples to apples
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:29 pm

This is all about the carrot and the stick. If DELTA's non-union FAs can use the potential threat of unionization to get pay, benefit and/or work rule improvements without having to actually vote in a union, then I say more power to them.

What better way to tick off the union than to let them spend $ millions on an elaborate organizing campaign, only to have the end result be that the union still loses the vote even after spending outrageous sums of money, all the while DELTA FAs get improved pay and benefits at zero cost to them. :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Oh, and I do think it is worth asking: Where does everyone think that the union is getting all their $$$ to spend on this attempt at organizing DELTA FAs? From their members, of course! Unionized workers at other airlines are actually paying $$$ out of their own paychecks to fund this charade.

Ya gotta love it.
Last edited by DL747400 on Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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jetmatt777
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:35 pm

DL747400 wrote:
This is all about the carrot and the stick. If DELTA's non-union FAs can use the potential threat of unionization to get pay, benefit and/or work rule improvements without having to actually vote in a union, then I say more power to them.


Delta's FA's can thank their union counterparts for that. They are getting a free ride. However its not guaranteed. Work rules and benefits are meaningless when no one is able to hold the company accountable. A union provides the protection of being able to hold the company accountable without fear of losing your job.

Delta can change anything at their own will. That's a lot of uncertainty in an industry already full of its own uncertainties.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:07 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
This is all about the carrot and the stick. If DELTA's non-union FAs can use the potential threat of unionization to get pay, benefit and/or work rule improvements without having to actually vote in a union, then I say more power to them.


Delta's FA's can thank their union counterparts for that. They are getting a free ride. However its not guaranteed. Work rules and benefits are meaningless when no one is able to hold the company accountable. A union provides the protection of being able to hold the company accountable without fear of losing your job.


I don't think that anyone who is being intellectually honest would deny that DELTA FAs are indeed getting a free ride. But there's nothing at all wrong with that. And yes, technically anything can change at any time, preserving more flexibility for DELTA to use against the competition. Another of DELTA's competitive advantages. But there are limits to how far the company can push that without blowback.

Remember too, that it's not just about DELTA FAs. In terms of pay increases, DELTA has a history of applying general pay increases to both FAs and ground employees at the same time, so it is a much larger group of DELTA employees who are coming out ahead in these organizing campaigns.

jetmatt777 wrote:
Delta can change anything at their own will. That's a lot of uncertainty in an industry already full of its own uncertainties.


Uncertainty is not confined to the airline industry. I think the same can be said of life in general these days.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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Prost
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:02 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I don't have a horse in this race and there are many pros and cons to union membership. Natural there is going to be propaganda coming from both sides during this campaign.

From a customer perspective, I think many of us in pmNW hubs remember how militant, openly hostile, and nasty the NW FAs were back in the day and don't want to see a repeat of that ever again. Our view is jaded by that and its hard to differentiate how much of that was the NW "culture" or because of labor vs. management dynamic that existed at NW.

Not saying that it would necessarily be the case with DL, but post-merger DL FA service and general demeanor is far, far, superior to what we had with NW 10-15 years ago.


Again, NW FAs make up fewer than 25% of DL FA ranks. Those previous NWA heavy cities are a lot more balanced between DL/NW/ newer FAs.
 
N983AN
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:12 am

millionsofmiles wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
“Several” is not a big sample when compared to a 25000+ FA group.

Also, DTW is a former NWA hub. Very easy to find union-loving FAs there.

I’m in the camp of letting them control their destiny. However, every statement in this thread voicing support or opposition has to be looked at with suspicion. One person’s experiences cannot be interpreted as indicative of the pulse of their entire group.



ILL

She was in ATL Friday and Saturday and received the same welcome! When managers came up to scout out who was there she would walk up to them and introduce herself and hug them. She truly is about working together with management, not trying to "fight" them like other unions vying for our work group.


Sara Nelson is more about photo ops and promoting herself than about producing for her members.


+1000
Last edited by N983AN on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:19 am

Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:34 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


Except that Millennials far less likely to join unions. Lots of online sources, such as this one:

https://kairosmagazine.rutgers.edu/diso ... -unionize/

I've always suspected that the reason that Millennials refuse to embrace unions is that they view them as outdated and irrelevant products of a bygone era which have not evolved and have outlived their usefulness. Unions no longer clearly function well or benefit anyone in today's complex socio-economic environment.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:01 pm

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innova ... -union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL
 
klm617
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:43 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


Except that Millennials far less likely to join unions. Lots of online sources, such as this one:

https://kairosmagazine.rutgers.edu/diso ... -unionize/

I've always suspected that the reason that Millennials refuse to embrace unions is that they view them as outdated and irrelevant products of a bygone era which have not evolved and have outlived their usefulness. Unions no longer clearly function well or benefit anyone in today's complex socio-economic environment.


Because that is what they have been programmed to think. They have no idea what it is to work a 40 hour work week and be reasonably compensated for their efforts. These companies through consolidation have limited one's options and bargaining power to get a fair wage. If they took the rate of inflation they would actually see how much they have been under paid compared to their counterparts in the 70's and 80's. I'm not a union person either but what these companies get away with today is incredible through the power they have gained through consolidation and acquisitions. Unions more than ever are needed in this day and age to level the playing field. When a pilot's entry level pay is about the same as a fast food worker and not above poverty level that's a real problem.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:45 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


So what happened to the 45% of the flight attendants that were replaced after the merger.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:48 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Do those who say unions equal bad and rude employees realize that the flight attendants of every single major airline in the US are unionized except for Delta? Is the entire industry bad compared to DL flight attendants? Please. Are Southwest and Alaska flight attendants rude? They are the nicest in the industry. By far better than Delta flight attendants.

You would think Delta management has created those accounts to post things like that.


they're not global airlines \. Your not comparing apples to apples



American and United are not global Airlines ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:40 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.
ILL


Huh. Do the many, many female airline pilots (of similar seniority at similar airlines) make less than the dudes? If some do, is it because they are on a flex sched or something that allows them to handle family or other issues? Is there anybody here who wouldn't be delighted to have Tammy Jo as the captain on their flight?
 
signature
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:41 pm

catiii wrote:
And once they’re organized, Reservations, ACS and TechOps should quickly follow.


Maybe the ramp, but I don't see much of an appetite for organizing in RES, TechOps, or even 125.[/quote]

Prior to the last vote in TechOps I would agree, but Delta took that no vote and immediately began outsourcing mechanic and supply attendant jobs. Go take a TOC tour at ATL and notice how many outsourced mechanics and supply attendants are working on airplanes and in stores.

The only reason why RDU ramp was brought in-house was because of the union drive. If that doesn’t scream power in numbers to anti-union folks I don’t know what will.
 
cessna2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:17 am

DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


Except that Millennials far less likely to join unions. Lots of online sources, such as this one:

https://kairosmagazine.rutgers.edu/diso ... -unionize/

I've always suspected that the reason that Millennials refuse to embrace unions is that they view them as outdated and irrelevant products of a bygone era which have not evolved and have outlived their usefulness. Unions no longer clearly function well or benefit anyone in today's complex socio-economic environment.

Your statement is factually not true. Millennials are keeping unions alive and embracing them. In fact this generation is the biggest growing segment of unions today. Not to mention American approval of unions is at an all time high.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rewire ... nions/amp/
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