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cessna2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:17 am

DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


Except that Millennials far less likely to join unions. Lots of online sources, such as this one:

https://kairosmagazine.rutgers.edu/diso ... -unionize/

I've always suspected that the reason that Millennials refuse to embrace unions is that they view them as outdated and irrelevant products of a bygone era which have not evolved and have outlived their usefulness. Unions no longer clearly function well or benefit anyone in today's complex socio-economic environment.

Your statement is factually not true. Millennials are keeping unions alive and embracing them. In fact this generation is the biggest growing segment of unions today. Not to mention American approval of unions is at an all time high.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rewire ... nions/amp/
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3683
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:50 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
panamair wrote:
As an 'outsider' who has flown millions of miles on Delta for almost three decades, and still do on a weekly basis, I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what this will do to the company's service culture. You can call me irrational, but I have noticed and appreciated the Delta difference especially inflight, over the years; I say this as I am also a million miler on UA and a 4 million miler on AA, that the inflight experience IS generally better on Delta than on UA or AA, and I do strongly believe a lot of that has been driven by the absence of divisiveness between the front-line employees and management. Many unions however, thrive on instilling divisiveness between employees and management, as their very existence depends on this divisiveness. It is this potential for divisiveness that I most fear, when bringing a union into one of the most visible and high-impact front-line employee groups.


Don't be worried. Cultures aren't made by unions or the lack thereof, and their existence certainly isn't dependent on a divisive relationship with management. I haven't noticed any correlation with union/non-union, just the opposite. I get the same inconsistent, too-often disappointing service on DL as I get on UA or AA; nothing that matches the gushing opinions you read online. WN beats the pants off of all of the other big 4, and they're as union as they come. If DL's culture changes because of the presence of a union, then the culture was weak to start with. There's division at DL, no doubt. And who knows, it may change for the better if a union is voted in. Maybe employees will finally feel like they have a voice in their future and feel more comforted instead of fearful. I hope it would turn out this way because in my experiences DL's service is nothing to crow about. They could use a huge dose of a better culture, like say WN's.




Fear of going off track here but why anyone thinks SWA service is special, especially the inflight is beyond me? Very poor to non existent better descibes my experience. I doubt that it has anything to do with the union, but rather typical of todays SWA iminimal oversight of everything from maintenance to training.
 
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spinotter
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:43 pm

BravoOne wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
panamair wrote:
As an 'outsider' who has flown millions of miles on Delta for almost three decades, and still do on a weekly basis, I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what this will do to the company's service culture. You can call me irrational, but I have noticed and appreciated the Delta difference especially inflight, over the years; I say this as I am also a million miler on UA and a 4 million miler on AA, that the inflight experience IS generally better on Delta than on UA or AA, and I do strongly believe a lot of that has been driven by the absence of divisiveness between the front-line employees and management. Many unions however, thrive on instilling divisiveness between employees and management, as their very existence depends on this divisiveness. It is this potential for divisiveness that I most fear, when bringing a union into one of the most visible and high-impact front-line employee groups.


Don't be worried. Cultures aren't made by unions or the lack thereof, and their existence certainly isn't dependent on a divisive relationship with management. I haven't noticed any correlation with union/non-union, just the opposite. I get the same inconsistent, too-often disappointing service on DL as I get on UA or AA; nothing that matches the gushing opinions you read online. WN beats the pants off of all of the other big 4, and they're as union as they come. If DL's culture changes because of the presence of a union, then the culture was weak to start with. There's division at DL, no doubt. And who knows, it may change for the better if a union is voted in. Maybe employees will finally feel like they have a voice in their future and feel more comforted instead of fearful. I hope it would turn out this way because in my experiences DL's service is nothing to crow about. They could use a huge dose of a better culture, like say WN's.




Fear of going off track here but why anyone thinks SWA service is special, especially the inflight is beyond me? Very poor to non existent better descibes my experience. I doubt that it has anything to do with the union, but rather typical of todays SWA iminimal oversight of everything from maintenance to training.


I agree with MSPNWA that WN beats the pants off the other three of the big four in the USA. Never had a single problem, a single grouchy employee on WN, and certainly did on DL/UA/AA It isn't the inflight service, such as peanuts or beverages, that MSPNWA and I are talking about, but the rock-solid confidence that WN employees always have the customers best interests at the top of the list in their job.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:45 pm

cessna2 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Sara Nelson can really inspire younger people. Since 45% of Delta flight attendants have been hired after the merger and are relatively young I can see it happening.


Except that Millennials far less likely to join unions. Lots of online sources, such as this one:

https://kairosmagazine.rutgers.edu/diso ... -unionize/

I've always suspected that the reason that Millennials refuse to embrace unions is that they view them as outdated and irrelevant products of a bygone era which have not evolved and have outlived their usefulness. Unions no longer clearly function well or benefit anyone in today's complex socio-economic environment.


Your statement is factually not true. Millennials are keeping unions alive and embracing them. In fact this generation is the biggest growing segment of unions today. Not to mention American approval of unions is at an all time high.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rewire ... nions/amp/


Then your statement that Millennials are keeping unions alive and embracing them is also not factually true, so we will agree to disagree. For every article you can supply in support of your opinion, I can find at least one other article pointing out the opposite.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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EA CO AS
Topic Author
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:58 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Fear of going off track here but why anyone thinks SWA service is special, especially the inflight is beyond me? Very poor to non existent better descibes my experience.


The reason WN scores so well in the customer satisfaction department is that they set the bar low for expectations. You know going in you're not getting a seat assignment, there's no first class, you're not getting offered a meal, you don't earn miles that can take you to places like Europe or Asia, and so on.

But what they actually do, they do reasonably well, and very, very, consistently - provide service from A to B, with two free bags. And if you deliver on what you've promised, and do it consistently, your customer satisfaction scores will be pretty high.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BravoOne
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:02 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Fear of going off track here but why anyone thinks SWA service is special, especially the inflight is beyond me? Very poor to non existent better descibes my experience.


The reason WN scores so well in the customer satisfaction department is that they set the bar low for expectations. You know going in you're not getting a seat assignment, there's no first class, you're not getting offered a meal, you don't earn miles that can take you to places like Europe or Asia, and so on.

But what they actually do, they do reasonably well, and very, very, consistently - provide service from A to B, with two free bags. And if you deliver on what you've promised, and do it consistently, your customer satisfaction scores will be pretty high.


All good points. I still find them to be wanting with the exception of their ground staffwich have always treated me well. Inflight just seems to be a more like a floating crap game.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 50
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:01 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL

At best, that's a joke. Sexism has nothing to do with the pay difference.
 
catiii
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:24 pm

cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Let us not forget the title of this thread, AFA TRYING....As of now, there is NO union for DL FA's. Lets hope they never get one. There is a reason why they are happier than their counterparts at UA and AA, who, happen to have unions. I mean, you would think it would be the other way around...

So a few people come out, cheer, clap and hug the AFA pres. I think ya all are reading to much into that. Your getting your hopes up for nothing

I seem to remember reading that AS has won JD Power what, 11 consecutive years now? So those horrible union represented employees must be paying JD Power for the award. There is absolutely no way under your statement that they can win that on their own.

Your culture has nothing to do with being organized or not. It's how you train the people and whether or not you treat your employees with respect equally across the board. Union busting 101. Treat the Pro-company employees like gold so the pro-company and pro-union/pro-workers rights employees look like the bad guys. Never mind the management who purposely pits the two groups against one another. No management has our backs always... *insert eye roll*


Actually there is a licensing fee that a company has to pay JD Power so in fact they are paying for the award.
 
BravoOne
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:52 pm

I sure wouldn't buy a car just because JD Power had recommended it!
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:59 pm

catiii wrote:
Actually there is a licensing fee that a company has to pay JD Power so in fact they are paying for the award.


Oh stop it, the licensing fee is paid by all companies who want to use their proprietary information, not just the award winner. And by the way, ALL the carriers in the U.S. participate, including the LCCs, so it's not like this is some buy-in thing where other carriers weren't considered for the award since they didn't pay. All do.

Also, it may interest you to know that JD Power changed their categories for 2020 and beyond - it's no longer "Network carriers" vs. "Low cost carriers" - everyone is on the same playing field. They're just rated as "Short haul" and "Long haul" with the over/under being flights up to 800 miles, and flights 801 miles or more.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:17 pm

ItnStln wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL

At best, that's a joke. Sexism has nothing to do with the pay difference.


I want to give her the benefit of the doubt but I can’t. That publication isn’t satire and it was a long answer to complex question. I’m afraid to say she believes it.


ILL
 
Babyshark
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:21 pm

ItnStln wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL

At best, that's a joke. Sexism has nothing to do with the pay difference.


Not to mention the high percentage of men who do that job.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:46 am

ilovelamp wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL

At best, that's a joke. Sexism has nothing to do with the pay difference.


I want to give her the benefit of the doubt but I can’t. That publication isn’t satire and it was a long answer to complex question. I’m afraid to say she believes it.


ILL

Indeed
 
ItnStln
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:47 am

Babyshark wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/innovators-sara-nelson-flight-attendant-union/amp

The AFA president is actually claiming sexism is why pilots make more than FAs.

This won’t endear people to her cause. The argument is factually void of any logical reasoning.


ILL

At best, that's a joke. Sexism has nothing to do with the pay difference.


Not to mention the high percentage of men who do that job.

That and the female pilots should prove what she said is a lie.
 
catiii
Posts: 3201
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:39 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
catiii wrote:
Actually there is a licensing fee that a company has to pay JD Power so in fact they are paying for the award.


Oh stop it, the licensing fee is paid by all companies who want to use their proprietary information, not just the award winner. And by the way, ALL the carriers in the U.S. participate, including the LCCs, so it's not like this is some buy-in thing where other carriers weren't considered for the award since they didn't pay. All do.

Also, it may interest you to know that JD Power changed their categories for 2020 and beyond - it's no longer "Network carriers" vs. "Low cost carriers" - everyone is on the same playing field. They're just rated as "Short haul" and "Long haul" with the over/under being flights up to 800 miles, and flights 801 miles or more.


Stop what? You have to pay to be able use JD Powe award winner in your advertising. It doesn’t matter if everyone competed. There’s a reason you don’t see some of this year’s winners highlighting it. They didn’t pay.

Who cares how they changed their categories. They didn’t change that you have to pay to use it in your advertising.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:22 pm

AFL-CIO SCHEDULES AFA INTERFERENCE HEARING

The AFL-CIO, the largest labor federation in the United States, has scheduled a hearing on January 9th regarding the IAM's numerous complaints of AFA-CWA interference with the IAM Delta campaign.

In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO. The IAM was granted this award because it was found that the AFA-CWA not only did not stop the organizing being done in its name from 2015-2018, it, in fact, supported and encouraged such "grassroots" organizing efforts. These actions were found to create a "competition of unions," which was found to directly interfere with Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to form a union and violate AFL-CIO rules.

The dispute will be decided by a committee of representatives from three AFL-CIO affiliate unions and will be binding.

The IAM previously stated, the union is disappointed that the AFA-CWA would launch a campaign while this dispute is outstanding and it will continue its support of Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to unionize with the largest airline union in the world, the IAM.

Request your a-card here: www.iamdelta.net/acard
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:53 pm

IAM =. :liar:

APFA = :liar:

People in their right mind want nothing to do with dysfunctional unions.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
jersey777
Posts: 22
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:41 pm

DL747400 wrote:
IAM =. :liar:

APFA = :liar:

People in their right mind want nothing to do with dysfunctional unions.



The APFA is an independent union solely formed by the flight attendants at American Airlines in 1977. It has no stake in the game regarding Delta Airlines flight attendants. Perhaps you are thinking of the AFA????
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:46 pm

DL747400 wrote:
IAM =. :liar:

APFA = :liar:

People in their right mind want nothing to do with dysfunctional unions.


Do you know what APFA is?

Also, are you implying that Delta pilots and dispatchers who are unionized are not in their right mind?
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:59 pm

You are right! Meant to say AFA.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:15 pm

DL747400 wrote:
You are right! Meant to say AFA.


What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 503
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:38 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
You are right! Meant to say AFA.


What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


And pilots and FAs at all other airlines in the nation too. I guess everyone is just crazy and foolish except a slim majority of Delta FAs?
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:54 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO.


...And that exclusivity period has ended...

The IAM couldn't close the deal. If they truly have the FA's best interests at heart, they will bow out gracefully, and throw their support behind the AFA.

You know, like the AFA did last time.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:24 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
You are right! Meant to say AFA.


What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


And pilots and FAs at all other airlines in the nation too. I guess everyone is just crazy and foolish except a slim majority of Delta FAs?


Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.

Even the pilots who fly the planes those smart Delta flight attendants work on are not in their right mind.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:54 am

Didn't AFA try 3 times in the last 20 years at Delta and lose every time?

What has changed for the worse for Delta Flight Attendants that would change the result this tme?
 
klm617
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:18 am

Detroit313 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


And pilots and FAs at all other airlines in the nation too. I guess everyone is just crazy and foolish except a slim majority of Delta FAs?


Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.

Even the pilots who fly the planes those smart Delta flight attendants work on are not in their right mind.


Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
N983AN
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:45 am

NWAESC wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO.


...And that exclusivity period has ended...

The IAM couldn't close the deal. If they truly have the FA's best interests at heart, they will bow out gracefully, and throw their support behind the AFA.

You know, like the AFA did last time.


The IAM doesn’t like stepping aside, look at the mess they have caused at AA with the association that no member got to vote on.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 am

Detroit313 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


And pilots and FAs at all other airlines in the nation too. I guess everyone is just crazy and foolish except a slim majority of Delta FAs?


Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.

Even the pilots who fly the planes those smart Delta flight attendants work on are not in their right mind.


But what kind of power do they really have anymore? The last time a major airline's pilots went on strike the president of the United States ordered them to go back to work. Federal law protects them from having to fly an un-airworthy airplane. Unions were a good thing when they were focused on making the industry safer. That isn't a concern anymore. There are so many federal agencies that are now in charge of airlines and workplace safety in general. It was reported that Delta's A350 pilots made over a million dollars. Good luck getting sympathy from the public about your contract.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 am

klm617 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:

And pilots and FAs at all other airlines in the nation too. I guess everyone is just crazy and foolish except a slim majority of Delta FAs?


Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.

Even the pilots who fly the planes those smart Delta flight attendants work on are not in their right mind.


Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.


Yeah. Big successful passenger-committed, passenger-pleasing company is EGOTISTICAL. They must be taken down a notch! How DARE they be successful and proud of it! Take them down!!!!
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:22 am

klm617 wrote:
Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.


No, actually from the passenger perspective, DELTA doesn’t need that at all. They are doing just fine without the bitterness and despair which oozes from every single one of the hundreds of posts you’ve made over the years. Take it from a longtime Platinum who just made Diamond for the first time... DELTA is different.

I truly feel deep sorrow for your employer and anyone who has to work with someone wearing such negativity on their sleeve. That chip on your shoulder must weigh a TON.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:34 am

DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.


No, actually from the passenger perspective, DELTA doesn’t need that at all. They are doing just fine without the bitterness and despair which oozes from every single one of the hundreds of posts you’ve made over the years. Take it from a longtime Platinum who just made Diamond for the first time... DELTA is different.

I truly feel deep sorrow for your employer and anyone who has to work with someone wearing such negativity on their sleeve. That chip on your shoulder must weigh a TON.


While I agree with most of your post, Delta isn't as good as they used to be. I've been a medallion for nearly 15 years so I think I'm qualified to speak on the subject. While they are better than other airlines they have definitely fallen. They used to treat you exceptionally well even if you didn't have status. I never had any trouble getting a complimentary hotel room and meal vouchers even if the delay wasn't their fault years ago when I didn't have status. Now even with status they don't want to give it to you. You're going to endure that 12 hour "delay" so they can keep their 100% completion rate.

It's sad that we were treated better when they were in bankruptcy. I couldn't care less about upgrades, I'd be fine if they went away entirely. My travel is flexible so I just book discounted F seats. But I would very much like going back to the days of no questions asked customer service. Either get me on a flight in my ticketed class or put me in a hotel until there is room on another flight. And stop outsourcing your flights to partners. If I had wanted to fly on Air Europa or China Southern I would have booked a ticket with them.
 
wjcandee
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:24 am

Detroit313 wrote:

Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.
.


Not at all. But the "every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire US industry" that you are referring to is employed by a company other than Delta.

And each of those other companies has their own cultures and traditions, and each treats and pays its employees differently, provides different benefits, provides different profit-sharing (if any), and has a workplace with a different management/employee relationship than that which Delta has cultivated over the last 50 years.

So just because everyone else does it doesn't mean that the Delta folks should. And just because Delta pilots do it doesn't mean that any other Delta craft is best off doing it. Would anyone in TechOps prefer the culture and work environment at AA right now over that at DL? Maybe some would. Would any DL F/As rather work at Atlas Air? Hey, they're union!

There is nothing wrong with having different work rules, compensation packages, and management/employee relations at different carriers, because different people (employees) value some things more than other people do. Some people pick the union job at Target and others pick the non-union job at the Walmart next door. Each offers a different employee experience, and one is more-suited for some folks and the other is more-suited for others.

So, please, give the "a union job is always better than a non-union job" speech a rest.

PS Your premise is not true anyway. At the majors, yes, and that must be what you were referring to. But there are many flight attendants and pilots in the US airline biz that don't belong to a union.
 
cessna2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:31 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
AFL-CIO SCHEDULES AFA INTERFERENCE HEARING

The AFL-CIO, the largest labor federation in the United States, has scheduled a hearing on January 9th regarding the IAM's numerous complaints of AFA-CWA interference with the IAM Delta campaign.

In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO. The IAM was granted this award because it was found that the AFA-CWA not only did not stop the organizing being done in its name from 2015-2018, it, in fact, supported and encouraged such "grassroots" organizing efforts. These actions were found to create a "competition of unions," which was found to directly interfere with Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to form a union and violate AFL-CIO rules.

The dispute will be decided by a committee of representatives from three AFL-CIO affiliate unions and will be binding.

The IAM previously stated, the union is disappointed that the AFA-CWA would launch a campaign while this dispute is outstanding and it will continue its support of Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to unionize with the largest airline union in the world, the IAM.

Request your a-card here: http://www.iamdelta.net/acard

Is this the hearing where IAM will publish their apology for disparaging AFA? Oh right IAM has refused to comply with that ruling from September of 2018 against them, but somehow believes AFA should be held to a different standard. And the IAM wonders why they can't get people to support them.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:33 am

DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.


No, actually from the passenger perspective, DELTA doesn’t need that at all. They are doing just fine without the bitterness and despair which oozes from every single one of the hundreds of posts you’ve made over the years. Take it from a longtime Platinum who just made Diamond for the first time... DELTA is different.

I truly feel deep sorrow for your employer and anyone who has to work with someone wearing such negativity on their sleeve. That chip on your shoulder must weigh a TON.


I wish I could write like you. (And I wouldn't mind that diamond status.) Nice post.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:38 am

cessna2 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
AFL-CIO SCHEDULES AFA INTERFERENCE HEARING

The AFL-CIO, the largest labor federation in the United States, has scheduled a hearing on January 9th regarding the IAM's numerous complaints of AFA-CWA interference with the IAM Delta campaign.

In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO. The IAM was granted this award because it was found that the AFA-CWA not only did not stop the organizing being done in its name from 2015-2018, it, in fact, supported and encouraged such "grassroots" organizing efforts. These actions were found to create a "competition of unions," which was found to directly interfere with Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to form a union and violate AFL-CIO rules.

The dispute will be decided by a committee of representatives from three AFL-CIO affiliate unions and will be binding.

The IAM previously stated, the union is disappointed that the AFA-CWA would launch a campaign while this dispute is outstanding and it will continue its support of Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to unionize with the largest airline union in the world, the IAM.

Request your a-card here: http://www.iamdelta.net/acard

Is this the hearing where IAM will publish their apology for disparaging AFA? Oh right IAM has refused to comply with that ruling from September of 2018 against them, but somehow believes AFA should be held to a different standard. And the IAM wonders why they can't get people to support them.


Regardless of whether the IAM is the most-likely union to be a successful organizer of DL flight attendants, the Constitution of the AFL-CIO precludes the kind of activities that AFA has been doing, and doing openly and notoriously.

I'm always amused when folks point to the existence of a contract that spells out the duties and obligations of employees and management as one of the great things about trade unionism, but choose immediately to ignore the law and the terms of their contract when it suits them.

And I'm always amused when a union like AFA says that they shouldn't have to abide the AFL-CIO Constitution, which has done great things for trade unionism in America, because they feel they're the better player, and apparently not subject to the rules.

The rules apply to everyone. Except me, 'cause I'm special.

Or in the words of Animal Farm, which should still be taught in school, "All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others."
 
signature
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:23 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:10 am

DL747400 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes because everything Delta is how it is here on a.net. Delta this and Delta that. Delta does it's best at leveraging everything in their favor including maintaining control over it's employees. Delta is one of those corporations that needs a bit off Union injection to knock them off their ego pedestal.


No, actually from the passenger perspective, DELTA doesn’t need that at all. They are doing just fine without the bitterness and despair which oozes from every single one of the hundreds of posts you’ve made over the years. Take it from a longtime Platinum who just made Diamond for the first time... DELTA is different.

I truly feel deep sorrow for your employer and anyone who has to work with someone wearing such negativity on their sleeve. That chip on your shoulder must weigh a TON.


You see what the employees are required to show you - which is professional service. You are not, despite your status, privy to what’s going on inside the workgroups.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:20 am

At AA, UA, WN the three other largest airlines pilots, flight attendants, maintenance, ramp, customer service and reservations are all unionized. The airline industry is one of the most highly unionized industries in the US.
 
cessna2
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:51 am

wjcandee wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
AFL-CIO SCHEDULES AFA INTERFERENCE HEARING

The AFL-CIO, the largest labor federation in the United States, has scheduled a hearing on January 9th regarding the IAM's numerous complaints of AFA-CWA interference with the IAM Delta campaign.

In April, 2018, the IAM was awarded the exclusive right to organize Delta Flight Attendants by the AFL-CIO. The IAM was granted this award because it was found that the AFA-CWA not only did not stop the organizing being done in its name from 2015-2018, it, in fact, supported and encouraged such "grassroots" organizing efforts. These actions were found to create a "competition of unions," which was found to directly interfere with Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to form a union and violate AFL-CIO rules.

The dispute will be decided by a committee of representatives from three AFL-CIO affiliate unions and will be binding.

The IAM previously stated, the union is disappointed that the AFA-CWA would launch a campaign while this dispute is outstanding and it will continue its support of Delta Flight Attendants' efforts to unionize with the largest airline union in the world, the IAM.

Request your a-card here: http://www.iamdelta.net/acard

Is this the hearing where IAM will publish their apology for disparaging AFA? Oh right IAM has refused to comply with that ruling from September of 2018 against them, but somehow believes AFA should be held to a different standard. And the IAM wonders why they can't get people to support them.


Regardless of whether the IAM is the most-likely union to be a successful organizer of DL flight attendants, the Constitution of the AFL-CIO precludes the kind of activities that AFA has been doing, and doing openly and notoriously.

I'm always amused when folks point to the existence of a contract that spells out the duties and obligations of employees and management as one of the great things about trade unionism, but choose immediately to ignore the law and the terms of their contract when it suits them.

And I'm always amused when a union like AFA says that they shouldn't have to abide the AFL-CIO Constitution, which has done great things for trade unionism in America, because they feel they're the better player, and apparently not subject to the rules.

The rules apply to everyone. Except me, 'cause I'm special.

Or in the words of Animal Farm, which should still be taught in school, "All animals are equal. But some animals are more equal than others."

Where has AFA said they don't have to abide by the rules? The exclusivity period ended October 23, 2019. AFA launched an official campaign November 1, 2019. In the original ruling that gave IAM 18 months of exclusivity the arbitrator found no evidence that AFA was ever running a campaign. However because a group of grassroots activists were organizing under AFA's name IAM was awarded 18 months of exclusivity. Its in the ruling. I suggest you read it.

IAM violated article 20 of the AFL-CIO constitution. They were found to be in violation and order to correct it. IAM didn't bother to show up to the hearing nor accept the ruling. AFA has been to every meeting/hearing they've been asked to go to because they respect the process. Unfortunately IAM does not.

This is not about doing whats best for DL FAs to the IAM, it's about pissing on the AFA because they are still mad about the UA/CO work group going with AFA. As a member of an AFL-CIO affiliate union, I will 100% put my money on AFA winning not only at DL, but against the IAM as well.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:44 am

They weren't abiding the rules long before 10/23/19.

There's a hearing coming up. We will see whether AFL-CIO enforces its rules or doesn't. It's ruling will have a longlasting effect on unionism. Do they find an excuse to let AFA organize DL despite its misbehavior, or do they make AFA follow the rules? It will be interesting to see what happens.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:51 am

The best thing (for rank and file workers) that could come out of this hearing is an end to the AFL-CIO's "no raid" clause. It won't happen, but it should.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Packson
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:27 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:37 am

Detroit313 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
You are right! Meant to say AFA.


What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


I'm a Delta Pilot and ALPA generally only serves ALPA Nationals interest. There isn't a work rule they haven't tried to sell or convert to pay....why, because they get paid 1.9% of my pay, not my time off or medical or retirement, the list is rather long on ALPA's failures.

That being said if FA's believe they will have it better with a Union, I would suggest you have an exit strategy should they not live up to the promises of all things better.

Lastly, I love the FA's i work with and will support whatever direction they want but me personally, I would love to kick Alpa to the curb.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:20 pm

Packson wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
You are right! Meant to say AFA.


What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


, because they get paid 1.9% of my pay,

personally, I would love to kick Alpa to the curb.


so, on average, its costing each pilot $4,000 to $5,000 a year to belong to ALPA. Thats a lot of money, even to a pilot making $250,000 a year. I mean, as someone previously mentioned, do you really even need a union? Lots of what pilots can and cant do are governed by outside authorities. Dropping ALPA, its not like all of a sudden DL will send a TATL or TPAC flight out with one set of pilots.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:15 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Packson wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


, because they get paid 1.9% of my pay,

personally, I would love to kick Alpa to the curb.


so, on average, its costing each pilot $4,000 to $5,000 a year to belong to ALPA. Thats a lot of money, even to a pilot making $250,000 a year. I mean, as someone previously mentioned, do you really even need a union? Lots of what pilots can and cant do are governed by outside authorities. Dropping ALPA, its not like all of a sudden DL will send a TATL or TPAC flight out with one set of pilots.

ALPA is the only reason all of delta still has their current profit sharing plan. They have plenty of reasons to keep their union.
Current delta profit sharing checks Certainly had nothing to do with an absurd notion of Delta management’s magnanimous attitude.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:16 pm

I love the reverse whipsaw Delta FAs are able to lash Delta with. Constant threat of Union leads to constant benefit increases for them. Its a shame jetBlue did not go that route and just doubled down on measures that all but ensured TWU union victory.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:30 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Packson wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

What about Delta pilots though. Are they not in their right mind for being unionized?


, because they get paid 1.9% of my pay,

personally, I would love to kick Alpa to the curb.


so, on average, its costing each pilot $4,000 to $5,000 a year to belong to ALPA. Thats a lot of money, even to a pilot making $250,000 a year. I mean, as someone previously mentioned, do you really even need a union? Lots of what pilots can and cant do are governed by outside authorities. Dropping ALPA, its not like all of a sudden DL will send a TATL or TPAC flight out with one set of pilots.

No they will just give their JV partners the flight. Just like his Delta has bee found guilty of violating ALPA’s CBA by having their JV partners flying too many international flights.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:57 pm

NWAESC wrote:
The best thing (for rank and file workers) that could come out of this hearing is an end to the AFL-CIO's "no raid" clause. It won't happen, but it should.


Awesome! Then individual unions can badmouth each other publicly! Actual competition of ideas, dues, etc. Accountability!

The reason for the no-raid clause is that the harm to trade unionism generally from overt competition between unions far exceeds the benefits of organizing any one employer.

Interesting that AFA advocates and those who would organize Delta would toss this bedrock principle out the window.

I think this concept -- to willingly toss a fundamental underpinning of how a society works, regardless of long-term consequences, just to obtain some short-term result -- is happening broadly these days, and I'm not sure it's a good thing.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8059
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:01 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Packson wrote:

, because they get paid 1.9% of my pay,

personally, I would love to kick Alpa to the curb.


so, on average, its costing each pilot $4,000 to $5,000 a year to belong to ALPA. Thats a lot of money, even to a pilot making $250,000 a year. I mean, as someone previously mentioned, do you really even need a union? Lots of what pilots can and cant do are governed by outside authorities. Dropping ALPA, its not like all of a sudden DL will send a TATL or TPAC flight out with one set of pilots.

ALPA is the only reason all of delta still has their current profit sharing plan. They have plenty of reasons to keep their union.
Current delta profit sharing checks Certainly had nothing to do with an absurd notion of Delta management’s magnanimous attitude.


It's competition for quality employees and company tradition that results in these things, not a union contract. And even if ALPA is the reason that other work groups get profit sharing (the pilots are out there demanding that F/A's get profit-sharing? Seriously? If they are, their union heads should be drawn and quartered), then there's no reason for the FAs to be paying union dues for a union of their own.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:08 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Exactly. Every single pilot and flight attendant in the entire industry in the US is stupid, silly and not in their right mind whereas Delta flight attendants are the smart ones.

Even the pilots who fly the planes those smart Delta flight attendants work on are not in their right mind.


If DELTA's non-union FAs can use the potential threat of unionization to get pay, benefit and/or work rule improvements at no cost to them and without having to actually vote in a union, then I’d say that makes DELTA’s FAs pretty damn smart. :checkmark:

If DELTA’s non-union FAs can let the IAM/AFA spend literally $ millions in dues from members at unionized carriers on an elaborate DELTA organizing campaign, only to have the end result be that the union still loses the vote even after spending outrageous sums of money, I’d say that makes DELTA’s FAs pretty damn smart. :checkmark:
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:20 pm

wjcandee wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
The best thing (for rank and file workers) that could come out of this hearing is an end to the AFL-CIO's "no raid" clause. It won't happen, but it should.


Awesome! Then individual unions can badmouth each other publicly! Actual competition of ideas, dues, etc. Accountability!

The reason for the no-raid clause is that the harm to trade unionism generally from overt competition between unions far exceeds the benefits of organizing any one employer.

Interesting that AFA advocates and those who would organize Delta would toss this bedrock principle out the window.

I think this concept -- to willingly toss a fundamental underpinning of how a society works, regardless of long-term consequences, just to obtain some short-term result -- is happening broadly these days, and I'm not sure it's a good thing.


Competition would be good. For every union (or lodge, or local) meeting the needs of their members, there are plenty that are just coasting. IMO, it would also go a long way towards getting rid of the sclerotic structures currently in place. Business unionism is not helping anyone.

It would also have rendered this whole AFA/IAM battle moot. DL FA's have clearly indicated that they do not want to be represented by the IAM. Shouldn't they have the same say with the AFA?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:44 pm

NWAESC wrote:
DL FA's have clearly indicated that they do not want to be represented by the IAM. Shouldn't they have the same say with the AFA?


And would you be satisfied if DELTA FAs do get to have their say and the answer is the same NO vote as before? Somehow, I doubt that you would be satisfied with that.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
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