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jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:40 pm

lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:14 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Pretty much every single Delta flight attendant I know has changed their Facebook profile picture to the purple AFA selfie frame to support the campaign.


That sounds like a great way to highlight yourself for closer scrutiny from both your coworkers and from management.

It is against the law to be retaliated against for being pro-union.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:16 pm

DL747400 wrote:
[quote="jersey777”] “scutiny”?.....you mean harassment. Lovely culture there at Delta.[/quote]

I think people are naïve if they really believe that any company wouldn’t be scrutinizing things like that on social media, especially during a union election.

Like DELTA, my company is also nonunion, but if there were ever to be the unionization campaign at some point down the road, I would fully expect my employer to be watching for things like that in order to be aware of who the pro-union employees are and what actions they might be taking while on the clock and within the workplace. I don’t think it speaks to culture as much as it speaks to common sense. Trust, but verify. That’s not a bad thing and it works both ways.[/quote][/quote]

The pilots and dispatcher are unionized at Delta, it’s not a non-union company. And you do realize on a whole the airline industry is one of the highest percentage of unionized employees?
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:33 pm

jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:41 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Pretty much every single Delta flight attendant I know has changed their Facebook profile picture to the purple AFA selfie frame to support the campaign.


That sounds like a great way to highlight yourself for closer scrutiny from both your coworkers and from management.


That shows how tired of the shady tactics a lot of Delta flight attendants are. They know that they might become a target for management by openly expressing their support but they don't care. It is worth the fight for them.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:53 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again - and I've got no dog in this fight - but you can bank on DL's inflight group having profit-sharing become part of their contract if a union gets on the property, and DL management will likely ensure it's not as generous as it has historically been to offset any large gains made by the union on the wage, benefits, or work rules side. The hefty profit sharing has largely been about keeping unions off the property, and if that fails, that group will likely not get to retain it.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again - and I've got no dog in this fight - but you can bank on DL's inflight group having profit-sharing become part of their contract if a union gets on the property, and DL management will likely ensure it's not as generous as it has historically been to offset any large gains made by the union on the wage, benefits, or work rules side. The hefty profit sharing has largely been about keeping unions off the property, and if that fails, that group will likely not get to retain it.


Do the pilots and dispatchers who have a union and written down rules get less profit sharing? NO.

If anything, when you have a contract the company can't mess with your profit sharing. Back in 2015-2016 one day Delta all of a sudden changed the profit sharing formula for flight attendants and gave them less. They didn't touch the formula of the pilots and dispatchers simply because they couldn't.

The backlash was huge and a few years later they brought the old formula back.

If anything, not having a union means your profit sharing can come and go anytime like it has happened in the past.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:21 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again - and I've got no dog in this fight - but you can bank on DL's inflight group having profit-sharing become part of their contract if a union gets on the property, and DL management will likely ensure it's not as generous as it has historically been to offset any large gains made by the union on the wage, benefits, or work rules side. The hefty profit sharing has largely been about keeping unions off the property, and if that fails, that group will likely not get to retain it.

Then why did the pilots keep their high percentage of profit sharing when Delta arbitrarily cut the non-union?

And you do know Delta has to negotiate with the FAs if they become unionized and can’t impose nor dictate terms. Also the pilots in 2012 received a 17.5% raise in less than two years while non-union got 3%-5% depending on their date of higher in the same time period. And the pilots didn’t give up work rules or pay or benefits to get those raises. Your statement is totally untrue.
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:06 pm

n7371f wrote:
Haha well that would be expected from someone with NWA in their user name.


I’ll always be a Red Tailer, but the merger was a LONG time ago. We’re all one now. The binary thinking of NW= pro union and DL = Anti no longer works.

Besides, NWAESC was my job title at the time. “DALALA” just seems silly. Peace.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:10 pm

jumbojet wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
...facts to support that statement or is it just your biased opinion?


Experiential only. Take it for what you will. In all of the twists and turns organizing has taken here over the last 10 years, it’s always been junior people signing first, getting involved first, etc. YMMV.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:31 pm

cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.


Just take a look at how the UAW has embezzled its member's dues for decades and at the same time lost 75% of its membership's jobs. Do you really want lazy, incompetent union leaders managing your money and benefits?...only if you have a very low financial IQ yourself.

The DL Local would provide negative benefit to good DL employees. I guarantee you the first thing they'd negotiate away would be profit sharing...why? Because the greedy union doesn't get a portion of it.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
flyboy80
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:50 pm

Delta flight attendants would never approve a TA without profit sharing. It will be Delta flight attendants negotiating after all. Delta's built profit sharing into some incredible thing and it's viewed as an important benefit. I'm sure the Flight Attendants would rather have more in hourly compensation and work rules, but trust me, they will seek to contractually secure profit sharing even if it may be a less amount given the value of what else is negotiated. In the end the FAs stand to come out with a much better overall (and more valuable) package given Delta's performance.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:58 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
The DL Local would provide negative benefit to good DL employees. I guarantee you the first thing they'd negotiate away would be profit sharing...why? Because the greedy union doesn't get a portion of it.


You likely do not see this, but profit sharing is actually not a good idea in an industry known both for volatility and contentious labor relations. For now things are ok for the US3, thanks to merging away competition and the lingering effects of their bankruptcies. But this will not last forever, and with competition from smaller carries growing, it is not wise to assume the yields, and thus profitability, will remain as is.

While it is assumed that Profit Sharing is not a promised bonus, line employees will not see it that way. And when it stops, they will see it as a back-door wage reduction -even if it is factually not that. This will not help things.

All of this is without regard to whether Unionizing is good or bad. As always, that depends on who both the Union and the Company involved are.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:39 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Then why did the pilots keep their high percentage of profit sharing when Delta arbitrarily cut the non-union?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the pilots have their percentage cut and only reinstated when they threw a fit? That's what I seem to remember, although I'll gladly stand corrected if that's not the case.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Delta has to negotiate with the FAs if they become unionized and can’t impose nor dictate terms.


Profit sharing is voluntary until such time as it becomes part of a CBA, meaning DL can modify or suspend it as they see fit, anytime they want.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Your statement is totally untrue.


No, my statement about DL reducing the profit sharing to FAs if they vote for a union is just my opinion, same as yours. Neither your statement nor mine are true or untrue until we see how things play out, okay Boof?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:57 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.


Just take a look at how the UAW has embezzled its member's dues for decades and at the same time lost 75% of its membership's jobs. Do you really want lazy, incompetent union leaders managing your money and benefits?...only if you have a very low financial IQ yourself.

The DL Local would provide negative benefit to good DL employees. I guarantee you the first thing they'd negotiate away would be profit sharing...why? Because the greedy union doesn't get a portion of it.

Sara Nelson is not a lazy union leader. One only needs to look at the initiatives she has pushed through as the head of AFA. Furthermore being out in the airport at DTW yesterday, versus at home during thanksgiving negates that point even more. Where were DL leaders yesterday? Definitely not in the airports thanking those that had to work.
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:58 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Then why did the pilots keep their high percentage of profit sharing when Delta arbitrarily cut the non-union?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the pilots have their percentage cut and only reinstated when they threw a fit? That's what I seem to remember, although I'll gladly stand corrected if that's not the case.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Delta has to negotiate with the FAs if they become unionized and can’t impose nor dictate terms.


Profit sharing is voluntary until such time as it becomes part of a CBA, meaning DL can modify or suspend it as they see fit, anytime they want.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Your statement is totally untrue.


No, my statement about DL reducing the profit sharing to FAs if they vote for a union is just my opinion, same as yours. Neither your statement nor mine are true or untrue until we see how things play out, okay Boof?

DL Pilots never had theirs cut. Their TA had it at the reduced rate like the rest of the workgroup had done, but they voted down the TA because of it. Then renegotiated another TA without the reduction in PS and it passed. So the pilots were paid 17% while everyone else only got 10% for PS. What a difference having a contract makes.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:25 pm

You have to be naive to not see how much you lose without a union. Just compare how DL treats their unionized work groups VS the non - unionized ones and it is crystal clear.

Everything is very calculated by management. Whenever they give them a raise they change the profit sharing formula overnight, or suddenly change work rules or increase their health care costs to make up for it.
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:45 pm

cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.


source?
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:50 pm

jumbojet wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.


source?

Read AFA's constitution. It's very similar to ALPA being as AFA was originally part of ALPA before they split off to focus solely on FA issues.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:27 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Then why did the pilots keep their high percentage of profit sharing when Delta arbitrarily cut the non-union?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the pilots have their percentage cut and only reinstated when they threw a fit? That's what I seem to remember, although I'll gladly stand corrected if that's not the case.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Delta has to negotiate with the FAs if they become unionized and can’t impose nor dictate terms.


Profit sharing is voluntary until such time as it becomes part of a CBA, meaning DL can modify or suspend it as they see fit, anytime they want.

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Your statement is totally untrue.


No, my statement about DL reducing the profit sharing to FAs if they vote for a union is just my opinion, same as yours. Neither your statement nor mine are true or untrue until we see how things play out, okay Boof?

Pilots NEVER had their profit sharing cut. And once a union is voted in status quo goes into effect.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:16 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
once a union is voted in status quo goes into effect.


For pay, benefits, and work rules, yes. Profit sharing is entirely different.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:58 am

RDUDDJI wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
lets put this into perspective. Does anyone really think the AFA gives a rats a$$ about DL flight attendants? All they see is $$$$ coming in from the DL FA paychecks to fatten their own. Duh. I think a good majority of FA's see right through this and want nothing to do with a union. Thats what I hear anyway from the FA's I know.

I hope they realize 80% of their dues go right back into DL's local. Only 20% goes to DC to fight the issues on capital hill. Sounds like a good return on investment if you ask me.


Just take a look at how the UAW has embezzled its member's dues for decades and at the same time lost 75% of its membership's jobs. Do you really want lazy, incompetent union leaders managing your money and benefits?...only if you have a very low financial IQ yourself.

The DL Local would provide negative benefit to good DL employees. I guarantee you the first thing they'd negotiate away would be profit sharing...why? Because the greedy union doesn't get a portion of it.

The UAW didn’t lose 75% of the jobs nor was it dues money embezzled, it was training money paid by the big three
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:58 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
once a union is voted in status quo goes into effect.


For pay, benefits, and work rules, yes. Profit sharing is entirely different.

Wrong, everything is status quo.
 
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B727skyguy
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:03 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
That sounds like a great way to highlight yourself for closer scrutiny from both your coworkers and from management.

It is against the law to be retaliated against for being pro-union.

Technically that's true, Phoenix757767, but it happens. I used to work for a company whose supervisors told us that we would be fired if we so much as uttered the word "union" at work.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:11 am

B727skyguy wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
That sounds like a great way to highlight yourself for closer scrutiny from both your coworkers and from management.

It is against the law to be retaliated against for being pro-union.

Technically that's true, Phoenix757767, but it happens. I used to work for a company whose supervisors told us that we would be fired if we so much as uttered the word "union" at work.

Yes it does but people do get their jobs back, just happened at Boeing in CHS.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:17 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
once a union is voted in status quo goes into effect.


For pay, benefits, and work rules, yes. Profit sharing is entirely different.

Wrong, everything is status quo.


Not always; the union is free to take their issue to the NLRB, of course, but there's nothing stopping DL from changing the profit sharing in anticipation of a representation vote or prior to a new CBA being negotiated. Especially since DL can argue that the existence of profit sharing and the formula were subject to random changes, meaning it wasn't part of the established status quo and was in fact variable.
Last edited by EA CO AS on Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:18 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
people do get their jobs back


You mean like the IAM represented Ramp group at SEA for AS? :duck:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:00 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

For pay, benefits, and work rules, yes. Profit sharing is entirely different.

Wrong, everything is status quo.


Not always; the union is free to take their issue to the NLRB, of course, but there's nothing stopping DL from changing the profit sharing in anticipation of a representation vote or prior to a new CBA being negotiated. Especially since DL can argue that the existence of profit sharing and the formula were subject to random changes, meaning it wasn't part of the established status quo and was in fact variable.

The NLRB has zero to do with unionized airline workers. All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:00 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
people do get their jobs back


You mean like the IAM represented Ramp group at SEA for AS? :duck:

They did win the arbitration. Says a lot about you when you take glee in people losing their job.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:31 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
people do get their jobs back


You mean like the IAM represented Ramp group at SEA for AS? :duck:

They did win the arbitration. Says a lot about you when you take glee in people losing their job.


Define "won." None of them came back to work. And I took zero joy in seeing the RSSA group off the property in SEA, but the IAM was given the opportunity to retain the work. Instead, "full pay to the last day!" was the mantra. How did that work out for them?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:33 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.


And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
777Mech
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:44 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.


And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.


But do you really think DL would go to those lengths to alienate the biggest customer facing group you have? That'd be disastrous.
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:52 pm

Agreed, but you can best believe that "you could lose your PS!" will be rolled out as a company talking point.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:56 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.


And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.


One point about Status Quo:

Many people think it immediately goes into effect and stays there through the ratification of a T/A. That's not entirely correct. It stays in effect until a representation election is complete (either "yes" or "no"). Status Quo does not apply from that point on.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:57 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

You mean like the IAM represented Ramp group at SEA for AS? :duck:

They did win the arbitration. Says a lot about you when you take glee in people losing their job.


Define "won." None of them came back to work. And I took zero joy in seeing the RSSA group off the property in SEA, but the IAM was given the opportunity to retain the work. Instead, "full pay to the last day!" was the mantra. How did that work out for them?

You are posting false information, did you even read why the IAM won?

Because the company failed to meet and negotiate to retain the work.

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... n-contract
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:57 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.


And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.

Wrong, as the PS is added to their total earnings on the W2. And taxes are paid on it.
 
flyboy80
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:12 pm

One thing DL has going for it, according to the "experts" here on A.net, is their superior customer service on-board. Delta having as much financial clout as they do in the industry, would be foolish to suddenly attempt to withhold profit sharing from it's largest employee group...It would be poisoning the kool-aid times ten. It would piss off the flight attendants and show Delta as a corporation and not this designed "family" bs they've been pushing on their employees for years. I highly doubt Delta will be anything but modestly cooperative throughout the certification process and the first contract. They are not in a position they need concessions from IFS, and they don't need to piss off and alienate Flight Attendants and customers by lowering the FA morale.
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:10 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
You are posting false information, did you even read why the IAM won?

Because the company failed to meet and negotiate to retain the work.

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... n-contract


You should really learn about things before acting like you know what you're talking about; the RSSA contract allowed for outsourcing if the work could be done less expensively than keeping it in house. The IAM refused to negotiate, and management responded by locking out the SEA ramp and brought in Menzies. Problem is, Menzies did a crappy job and needed to have DGS hired alongside them, offsetting any savings. THAT is the only reason the IAM won any judgment:

https://www.seattlepi.com/business/arti ... 281548.php

The arbitrator said that Alaska Airlines violated its contract with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers because the amount charged by Menzies was greater than what it cost for Alaska Airlines to do the work itself.

The union did not get those jobs back, though - not as Alaska Airlines employees, anyway. They were hired at McGee, Alaska's wholly-owned ground handling subsidiary, and the IAM was invited to be the representing unit for that entity. Which they accepted.

Because the IAM wasn't interested in ensuring AS employed rampers in SEA, they were only interested in ensuring they represented whomever got the work so they'd continue to get dues.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ilovelamp
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:21 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
All wages, benefits, vacation and compensation are all subject to status quo.


And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.

Wrong, as the PS is added to their total earnings on the W2. And taxes are paid on it.


Added to the totals on the W2...yes. However, the IRS initially considers it a bonus and thus 25% is withheld. When taxes are filed it’s all reconciled based on the final tax bracket.


ILL
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:24 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

And again, DL will argue - successfully - that as profit sharing is not wages, benefits, vacation, nor regular compensation and has been variable in application, formulation, and amount, it will not fall under status quo.

Wrong, as the PS is added to their total earnings on the W2. And taxes are paid on it.


Added to the totals on the W2...yes. However, the IRS initially considers it a bonus and thus 25% is withheld. When taxes are filed it’s all reconciled based on the final tax bracket.


ILL

Learn the term laboratory conditions
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:29 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
You are posting false information, did you even read why the IAM won?

Because the company failed to meet and negotiate to retain the work.

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... n-contract


You should really learn about things before acting like you know what you're talking about; the RSSA contract allowed for outsourcing if the work could be done less expensively than keeping it in house. The IAM refused to negotiate, and management responded by locking out the SEA ramp and brought in Menzies. Problem is, Menzies did a crappy job and needed to have DGS hired alongside them, offsetting any savings. THAT is the only reason the IAM won any judgment:

https://www.seattlepi.com/business/arti ... 281548.php


The arbitrator said that Alaska Airlines violated its contract with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers because the amount charged by Menzies was greater than what it cost for Alaska Airlines to do the work itself.

The union did not get those jobs back, though - not as Alaska Airlines employees, anyway. They were hired at McGee, Alaska's wholly-owned ground handling subsidiary, and the IAM was invited to be the representing unit for that entity. Which they accepted.

Because the IAM wasn't interested in ensuring AS employed rampers in SEA, they were only interested in ensuring they represented whomever got the work so they'd continue to get dues.

https://casetext.com/case/alaska-airlin ... -aerospace

The IAM didn’t refuse to negotiate, that would be AS
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:59 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
The IAM didn’t refuse to negotiate, that would be AS


<sigh>

From your cited source...

In the summer of 2003, the parties began negotiations for changes to the RSSA agreement. Defendants assert that, prior to the expiration of the contract, they served plaintiff with a notice of intent to reopen the agreement, and informed plaintiff that proposed modifications and amendments would be submitted. Defendants also asked for a conference pursuant to the RLA and the agreement.

On August 17, 2003, defendants sent the proposed modifications to plaintiff. Defendants sought to remove Article 2, Paragraph B, which pertained to the subcontracting provisions of the agreement. In relevant part, Article 2.B.5. states that "the company may . . . (5) contract out any work for which the company's cost exceeds the vendors charges, less material[.]" Defendants proposed new language, eliminating the existing paragraph, and replacing it with: "The Company reserves the right to contract out other work with the approval of the Union."



The IAM didn't negotiate; they instead proposed the company scuttle existing language allowing work to be contracted out if the union work was not competitive. This is further supported by your cited source here:

In January of 2005, the IAM sent a letter to plaintiff taking the position that the RSSA agreement did not support such wholesale subcontracting of Seattle's ramp operations. Plaintiff responded that it disagreed, and apparently suggested that the parties proceed with expedited arbitration under the labor agreement. Plaintiff then served its Notice of Submission of Dispute.


So again, AS repeatedly attempted to negotiate, while the IAM dragged their heels, and ultimately dismissed the company's right to exercise language in the existing agreement. Only when it became clear that the IAM was not interested in providing cost savings to the company and protect the work did AS make the decision to lock them out and bring in a vendor.

I'm not saying how it went down was right; frankly, Menzies was more trouble than they were worth. But don't attempt to rewrite history and make it appear as the IAM were pure as the wind-driven snow; they didn't negotiate in good faith to solve the cost problem and priced their members out of work.

By the way, why the name change, Boof?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:06 pm

 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:10 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:


Yes, as I said, the IAM now represents the McGee Air Services vendor employees, as the IAM just wanted back onto the property and get back to collecting dues however they could.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ilovelamp
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:13 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Wrong, as the PS is added to their total earnings on the W2. And taxes are paid on it.


Added to the totals on the W2...yes. However, the IRS initially considers it a bonus and thus 25% is withheld. When taxes are filed it’s all reconciled based on the final tax bracket.


ILL

Learn the term laboratory conditions


That has nothing to do with my post.


ILL
 
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:28 pm

NWAESC wrote:
you can best believe that "you could lose your PS!" will be rolled out as a company talking point.


This is what I've been saying. I don't believe it's in DL's best interest to do that, mind you, but I can definitely see it being a constant talking point from the company.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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DL747400
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:47 pm

777Mech wrote:
And Delta has told inflight that they will respect their employees wishes. So which one is it?

You're basically saying DL is going after employees exercising their right for unionization? Got it.


Overreact much?

I’m not saying that at all. I don’t work for DELTA. I’m simply a very loyal longtime Medallion SkyMiles member. But why risk any potential fallout of any kind from anyone?
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NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:54 pm

Backpedal much?

I think the FA's can take care of themselves just fine.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWAESC
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:55 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:


Yes, as I said, the IAM now represents the McGee Air Services vendor employees, as the IAM just wanted back onto the property and get back to collecting dues however they could.


The IAM is not doing anyone any favors by focusing on UGE and McGee as "out of the box" solutions.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Detroit313
Posts: 348
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Re: AFA trying to unionize FAs at Delta

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:02 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Backpedal much?

I think the FA's can take care of themselves just fine.


There is nothing they can do about their horrible work rules.
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