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T4thH
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:45 pm

vadodara wrote:
Sokes wrote:
[


Concerning pollution with the B787:
"Cracking problems in the intermediate pressure (IPT) section of the turbine have plagued the engine since early 2016, five years after its launch.
...
According to Horwood, the problem was caused by sulphurisation; a chemical process affecting the nickel alloy which comprises the IPT blades. “We are very confident that this problem will not occur in any of our other engines,” Horwood said. “This is confined to component level in the Trent 1000.”
s.


Precisely! The engines were not tested in harsher environments.

IndiGo planes also fly to arid and dusty climes of the Arabian peninsula. The engine maker needs to be cognizant of the operating conditions.

Dust is not nice but regular a little less a problem. Next to erosion of parts, it will be an issue in the high and low pressure extreme hot turbine parts.

The sulfur dioxide is another story, SO2 itself does not do much, but from SO2 you get SO3 (regular in form of H2SO3 and this is corrosive).

If I am not wrong, is SO3 not produced in the chemical industry from SO2 under high pressure and temperatures around 400 to 600°C? Of course, additional catalyst is part of it, but catalyst only accelerate the reaction.
Are these not the conditions in the high pressure compressor stage of a turbofan engine? SO3 2- is extreme high corrosive.
And as said, nowhere in the world is the air so badly polluted as in northern half of India, especially with SO2.
 
Antarius
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:17 am

T4thH wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Sokes wrote:
[


Concerning pollution with the B787:
"Cracking problems in the intermediate pressure (IPT) section of the turbine have plagued the engine since early 2016, five years after its launch.
...
According to Horwood, the problem was caused by sulphurisation; a chemical process affecting the nickel alloy which comprises the IPT blades. “We are very confident that this problem will not occur in any of our other engines,” Horwood said. “This is confined to component level in the Trent 1000.”
s.


Precisely! The engines were not tested in harsher environments.

IndiGo planes also fly to arid and dusty climes of the Arabian peninsula. The engine maker needs to be cognizant of the operating conditions.

Dust is not nice but regular a little less a problem. Next to erosion of parts, it will be an issue in the high and low pressure extreme hot turbine parts.

The sulfur dioxide is another story, SO2 itself does not do much, but from SO2 you get SO3 (regular in form of H2SO3 and this is corrosive).

If I am not wrong, is SO3 not produced in the chemical industry from SO2 under high pressure and temperatures around 400 to 600°C? Of course, additional catalyst is part of it, but catalyst only accelerate the reaction.
Are these not the conditions in the high pressure compressor stage of a turbofan engine? SO3 2- is extreme high corrosive.
And as said, nowhere in the world is the air so badly polluted as in northern half of India, especially with SO2.


All you need is SO2. Sulphur dioxide reacts in atmosphere (with oxygen and water vapor) and forms H2SO3, which is corrosive.
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T4thH
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:03 am

Antarius wrote:
T4thH wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Precisely! The engines were not tested in harsher environments.

IndiGo planes also fly to arid and dusty climes of the Arabian peninsula. The engine maker needs to be cognizant of the operating conditions.

Dust is not nice but regular a little less a problem. Next to erosion of parts, it will be an issue in the high and low pressure extreme hot turbine parts.

The sulfur dioxide is another story, SO2 itself does not do much, but from SO2 you get SO3 (regular in form of H2SO3 and this is corrosive).

If I am not wrong, is SO3 not produced in the chemical industry from SO2 under high pressure and temperatures around 400 to 600°C? Of course, additional catalyst is part of it, but catalyst only accelerate the reaction.
Are these not the conditions in the high pressure compressor stage of a turbofan engine? SO3 2- is extreme high corrosive.
And as said, nowhere in the world is the air so badly polluted as in northern half of India, especially with SO2.


All you need is SO2. Sulphur dioxide reacts in atmosphere (with oxygen and water vapor) and forms H2SO3, which is corrosive.

I have just checked Wikipedia. No we are not talking about SO3 2- (my fault), we are talking about Sulfur Trioxide (SO3). SO3 + H20 forms H2SO4, which is of course several times more corrosive than the weak acid H2SO3.
I hope I am just wrong and no SO3 is produced from SO2 pollution in the high pressure compressor stage. Perhaps someone here is good in chemistry or involved in turbofan jet engine construction and knows it.
 
vadodara
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:15 am

T4thH wrote:
Dust is not nice but regular a little less a problem. Next to erosion of parts, it will be an issue in the high and low pressure extreme hot turbine parts.

The sulfur dioxide is another story, SO2 itself does not do much, but from SO2 you get SO3 (regular in form of H2SO3 and this is corrosive).

If I am not wrong, is SO3 not produced in the chemical industry from SO2 under high pressure and temperatures around 400 to 600°C? Of course, additional catalyst is part of it, but catalyst only accelerate the reaction.
Are these not the conditions in the high pressure compressor stage of a turbofan engine? SO3 2- is extreme high corrosive.
And as said, nowhere in the world is the air so badly polluted as in northern half of India, especially with SO2.


Ah yes, but the other engines have been working all along!

Yes, air in N India is polluted. Perhaps, P&W will be happy not to do business with airlines flying out of DEL I suppose.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:56 am

T4thH wrote:
Antarius wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Dust is not nice but regular a little less a problem. Next to erosion of parts, it will be an issue in the high and low pressure extreme hot turbine parts.

The sulfur dioxide is another story, SO2 itself does not do much, but from SO2 you get SO3 (regular in form of H2SO3 and this is corrosive).

If I am not wrong, is SO3 not produced in the chemical industry from SO2 under high pressure and temperatures around 400 to 600°C? Of course, additional catalyst is part of it, but catalyst only accelerate the reaction.
Are these not the conditions in the high pressure compressor stage of a turbofan engine? SO3 2- is extreme high corrosive.
And as said, nowhere in the world is the air so badly polluted as in northern half of India, especially with SO2.


All you need is SO2. Sulphur dioxide reacts in atmosphere (with oxygen and water vapor) and forms H2SO3, which is corrosive.

I have just checked Wikipedia. No we are not talking about SO3 2- (my fault), we are talking about Sulfur Trioxide (SO3). SO3 + H20 forms H2SO4, which is of course several times more corrosive than the weak acid H2SO3.
I hope I am just wrong and no SO3 is produced from SO2 pollution in the high pressure compressor stage. Perhaps someone here is good in chemistry or involved in turbofan jet engine construction and knows it.


H2SO4 is a strong acid. Concentrated H2SO4 will corrode anything immediately.
H2SO3 is a weak acid, but 24x7 exposure to it can cause corrosion in the long run. PW should think about some protections like galvanization is done to prevent rust.

vadodara wrote:
Yes, air in N India is polluted. Perhaps, P&W will be happy not to do business with airlines flying out of DEL I suppose.

And no Indian airline would fly a/c which is not compatible with Delhi, the largest airport in India !!
 
vadodara
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:36 am

anshabhi wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Yes, air in N India is polluted. Perhaps, P&W will be happy not to do business with airlines flying out of DEL I suppose.

And no Indian airline would fly a/c which is not compatible with Delhi, the largest airport in India !!


Yes, one can choose to blame the conditions and likely not participate in that market.
 
BOSAero
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:15 am

Hawaiian just had another inflight shutdown yesterday (03 NOV 2019). Aircraft returned to HNL. Engine change being done.
 
225623
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:39 am

vadodara wrote:
Yes, one can choose to blame the conditions and likely not participate in that market.


I worked for a German company producing telecommunication devices supposed to be operated in a controlled environment. The devices of our customers in India had a much higher failure rate than those of all other customers. And of course the Indian customers blamed us for delivering bad quality. When the devices came back to us for repair we found everything covered in black greasy dirt, even inside the devices. We basically trashed them as a good cleaning was more expensive then a new box.
We went back to the customers and told them, that the devices were not ment to work in the environment they were used in in India. And if they were not able to provide a cleaner environment they should buy the encapsulated device variants we offered, with better protection from environmental conditions. But nobody wanted to spend the extra money, they kept coming back to us wanting repairs and refunds. So in the end it was decided to stop selling to India.
 
HaulSudson
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:32 am

Is the LPT the problem?

If yes, isn't that a problem for MTU to solve (and pay) ??
 
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Revelation
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:45 pm

vadodara wrote:
Yes, one can choose to blame the conditions and likely not participate in that market.

I'm sure the intent was to provide an engine compatible with the environment, and changes are being made to obtain that goal.

What seems to be missing is the intention to provide an environment compatible with human lungs.
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morrisond
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:53 pm

Hawaii has maybe some of the cleanest air in the world.

Given how frequently they are shutting down in Flight - the Possibility of a double failure in flight somewhere really bad (over Water or Mountains) seems to have risen significantly from assumed at Design.

At what point do the regulators say the frequency is too high and it's time to ground them and do a deep dive on the engine to ensure there will be no more issues?

Was the GTF certified with insufficient testing or bad assumptions?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:11 pm

morrisond wrote:

Was the GTF certified with insufficient testing or bad assumptions?


Hmm that be really bad for the FAA, I mean it would then be second time a US-based aviation company would have produced a sub-par product under FAA supervision in a short period of time.

Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.
 
morrisond
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:52 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Was the GTF certified with insufficient testing or bad assumptions?


Hmm that be really bad for the FAA, I mean it would then be second time a US-based aviation company would have produced a sub-par product under FAA supervision in a short period of time.

Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.


Yes it would be.

LEAP was joint certified EASA/FAA

That may a good way going forward for all new programs (Airframe/Engines) so we have a check on things to make sure one doesn't miss things.
 
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Polot
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:59 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Was the GTF certified with insufficient testing or bad assumptions?


Hmm that be really bad for the FAA, I mean it would then be second time a US-based aviation company would have produced a sub-par product under FAA supervision in a short period of time.

Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.

Certification is primarily about safety, not reliability. Reliability has some play in it, but mostly in terms of how it will affect safety. While it is questionable about how PW got ETOPs (and draws into question whether we need to go back to real world experience before granting ETOPs) it is entirely possible to certify an engine (or aircraft) that passes all tests but is a complete dog when it comes to reliability/long term durability, etc. See also the RR Trent 1000 and all the issues it has had, along with many other engines out there known to be a bit troublesome relative to others.

You can certify an engine that needs a complete overhaul every other month if you want, as long as it is clear that the engine must be pulled, overhauled, and cannot be used for service every XX hrs or whatever.
 
HaulSudson
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:05 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.


That French company that failed to build their silvercrest engine, because the top-manageurs had retired/fired all the experienced employees, in particular the ones who actually happened to know how to build an engine?

:old:

Great partner to have.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:07 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Was the GTF certified with insufficient testing or bad assumptions?


Hmm that be really bad for the FAA, I mean it would then be second time a US-based aviation company would have produced a sub-par product under FAA supervision in a short period of time.

Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.

Certification is primarily about safety, not reliability. Reliability has some play in it, but mostly in terms of how it will affect safety. While it is questionable about how PW got ETOPs (and draws into question whether we need to go back to real world experience before granting ETOPs) it is entirely possible to certify an engine (or aircraft) that passes all tests but is a complete dog when it comes to reliability/long term durability, etc. See also the RR Trent 1000 and all the issues it has had, along with many other engines out there known to be a bit troublesome relative to others.

You can certify an engine that needs a complete overhaul every other month if you want, as long as it is clear that the engine must be pulled, overhauled, and cannot be used for service every XX hrs or whatever.


That is true but then you have to know when and why the engine fails to determine the replacement cycle which will be part of certification if the failure is safety relevant. If the case for the failure is not known the safety of the aircraft is not guaranteed and the engine should be grounded if the failure happens frequently, even if the initial test results were sufficient for certification.

EDIT: Of course if you know why and when the engine is bound to fail then you do not need to ground the engine and just enforce the replacement cycles.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:12 pm

HaulSudson wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.


That French company that failed to build their silvercrest engine, because the top-manageurs had retired/fired all the experienced employees, in particular the ones who actually happened to know how to build an engine?

:old:

Great partner to have.


Thats why they also need GE as a partner. As far as I know the silvercrest was a safran stand alone project...

Everything GE and Safran touched in collaboration or at least worked on together was a success at the end: the two CFM engines (LEAP, CFM56) and the GE90 (where Safran is a minority player, i think 20% involvement).
 
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Polot
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:14 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

Hmm that be really bad for the FAA, I mean it would then be second time a US-based aviation company would have produced a sub-par product under FAA supervision in a short period of time.

Luckily GE teamed with a French company to build the Leap as this engine seems to be rather reliable.

Certification is primarily about safety, not reliability. Reliability has some play in it, but mostly in terms of how it will affect safety. While it is questionable about how PW got ETOPs (and draws into question whether we need to go back to real world experience before granting ETOPs) it is entirely possible to certify an engine (or aircraft) that passes all tests but is a complete dog when it comes to reliability/long term durability, etc. See also the RR Trent 1000 and all the issues it has had, along with many other engines out there known to be a bit troublesome relative to others.

You can certify an engine that needs a complete overhaul every other month if you want, as long as it is clear that the engine must be pulled, overhauled, and cannot be used for service every XX hrs or whatever.


That is true but then you have to know when and why the engine fails to determine the replacement cycle which will be part of certification if the failure is safety relevant. If the case for the failure is not known the safety of the aircraft is not guaranteed and the engine should be grounded if the failure happens frequently, even if the initial test results were sufficient for certification.

EDIT: Of course if you know why and when the engine is bound to fail then you do not need to ground the engine and just enforce the replacement cycles.

It’s a question of risk. No testing in the world is ever going to give you 100% representation of what happens in regular real world use. If that was the case then planes would not have teething problems period. That is why there are procedures for ADs and technical bulletins and what not. So far nothing about the PW failures have indicated they pose a significant enough danger to passengers onboard the aircraft during the IFSD (eg it is not having uncontained failures multiple times a week) to warrant grounding the engine.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:19 pm

Polot wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Polot wrote:
Certification is primarily about safety, not reliability. Reliability has some play in it, but mostly in terms of how it will affect safety. While it is questionable about how PW got ETOPs (and draws into question whether we need to go back to real world experience before granting ETOPs) it is entirely possible to certify an engine (or aircraft) that passes all tests but is a complete dog when it comes to reliability/long term durability, etc. See also the RR Trent 1000 and all the issues it has had, along with many other engines out there known to be a bit troublesome relative to others.

You can certify an engine that needs a complete overhaul every other month if you want, as long as it is clear that the engine must be pulled, overhauled, and cannot be used for service every XX hrs or whatever.


That is true but then you have to know when and why the engine fails to determine the replacement cycle which will be part of certification if the failure is safety relevant. If the case for the failure is not known the safety of the aircraft is not guaranteed and the engine should be grounded if the failure happens frequently, even if the initial test results were sufficient for certification.

EDIT: Of course if you know why and when the engine is bound to fail then you do not need to ground the engine and just enforce the replacement cycles.

It’s a question of risk. No testing in the world is ever going to give you 100% representation of what happens in regular real world use. If that was the case then planes would not have teething problems period. That is why there are procedures for ADs and technical bulletins and what not. So far nothing about the PW failures have indicated they pose a significant enough danger to passengers onboard the aircraft during the IFSD (eg it is not having uncontained failures multiple times a week) to warrant grounding the engine.


Ah yeah I know that's why I wrote:

if the failure is safety relevant


Obviously it is determined as not safety relevant from the authorities as enough is known about the failures and they pose no threat. I said:

If the case for the failure is not known the safety of the aircraft is not guaranteed


The case includes of course a lot of variables and if enough of them are not known then the safety is not guaranteed.

Multiple unconstrained engine failures causing casualties where the root cause for the failure is not known within a few days would definitely lead to a grounding.
 
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unrave
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:35 pm

GTF has been nothing but a nightmare for IndiGo. I don't see them choosing GTF over LEAP for the 300 aircraft order. It is a pity that such a promising technology hasn't lived upto real world demands.
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vadodara
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:20 pm

ei146 wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Yes, one can choose to blame the conditions and likely not participate in that market.


I worked for a German company producing telecommunication devices supposed to be operated in a controlled environment.
.................
So in the end it was decided to stop selling to India.


That of course is a choice. However, engine's blowing up during a flight is not exactly acceptable either. The trick in building higher efficiency engines is of course to get more thrust out using the same fuel. That usually means running the turbines at higher rpm and such.

If you follow the engine discussions, EK 777's and 380's have seen higher wear-out c.w. those of perhaps BA and LH. It is likely corrosive air with dust particles.
 
jagraham
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:54 am

The problem with the rate of IFSD here is that the risk of 2 IFSDs in the same flight goes up dramatically. IndiGo has about 97 A320NEO family aircraft, out of a total of 247 aircraft, 20 of those being ATR family aircraft and the rest A320CEOs. So about 6 flights per day per aircraft, or about 580 flights per day for the A320NEO fleet. Just over 4000 flights per week in A320NEO aircraft for IndiGo.

Out of those just over 4000 flights, 4 experienced IFSDs, or one every 1000 flights. The chance of a flight having 2 engines shut down literally is 1 in a million. In comparison, there are 4000 flights over the Atlantic each day, and in the course of a month one flight turns back for all reasons including but not limited to, engine shutdowns. If every turnback over the Atlantic was due to engine shutdown, that would be a shutdown every 125000 flights. The chance of a 2 engine shutdown flight over the Atlantic would be one in 15 billion.

IndiGo's experience is now over 10,000 times worse than the experience of the entire passenger airline community over the Atlantic. The Indian aircraft regulators are correct to require a short timeframe changeover of engines. At the same time, one in a million means that corrective action in 90 days is OK versus immediate grounding.

I hope that the fixed engines meet expectations.
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:11 pm

anshabhi wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
DYSK wrote:
Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


That's got to be the stupidest thing I've read. Air pollution killing jet engines?

And air quality in India is bad only in some of the big cities and a few other places in the North. It is not like these planes have been flying only in and around these places.

Entire North India is land locked, which makes literally the entire region polluted. One large and polluted city is located every 200 km in the region. And, if nothing else, a large number of a/c spend their nights and fly from Delhi or Lucknow.


But are other engines suffering because of this? Seemingly no. The A320CEO s are doing fine.

And again, those planes fly all over India, and aren't confined to doing DEL-LKO runs. 6E aircraft nightstop all over India.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:14 pm

Hasn't the air pollution problem for engines appeared only recently? It may be the new higher core temperatures with the new bleeding edge temperatures, and certain metal alloys/coatings.
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sciing
Posts: 205
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:30 pm

anshabhi wrote:
H2SO3 is a weak acid, but 24x7 exposure to it can cause corrosion in the long run. PW should think about some protections like galvanization is done to prevent rust.

pKs=1,92 is still called strong acid. H2SO3 is slightly stronger than H3PO4 which you usally consume with you coke and which etches Aluminum.
 
sciing
Posts: 205
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:35 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Hasn't the air pollution problem for engines appeared only recently? It may be the new higher core temperatures with the new bleeding edge temperatures, and certain metal alloys/coatings.

Of course, the IPT is made of TiAl a quite "new" material having a different thermal barrier layer system, the temperature is much higher and also the load by the much higher rpm of the LP-shaft (THE feature of a GTF).
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:48 pm

MCTSET wrote:
This is honesty huge.

It is definitely not a good look for PW when you biggest customer gets screwed over because of your mistake, after this I think PW have lost indigo.

Future sales campaign have got much harder, but for good reason 4 shutdowns in a week means problems.


Considering PW has been trying to perfect geared turbofan engines for over 30 years, it's rather alarming. The A340-200 and 300 were originally supposed to have GTF engines. Those plans fell apart, and Airbus had to settle for CFM which still was a really good engine, but the intended A340 fuel burn numbers never happened. Even by the end of A340 production PW never produced a GTF engine reliable enough to install on an A340.

That PW has such serious reliability problems with their GTF engines installed on the latest A320 NEO series more than 30 years after the A340 program was launched with the intention of using GTF technology, shows that PW isn't likely to be the biggest beneficiary of GTF engines. GE/SNECMA are probably going to reap the benefits when they develop a GTF paired up with GE's high temperature CMC cores.

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