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Weatherwatcher1
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India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:36 pm

The situation at IndiGo and its 97 A320neos continues to get worse with 4 inflight shutdowns in a week.

On three consecutive days from October 24 to 26, IndiGo had three in-flight PW engine shutdowns, compelling the aviation regulator DGCA to visit the airline's premises on Monday to review the maintenance and safety data

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indigo- ... ek-2125022

The regulatory is now mandating engine replacements, which are resulting in airplanes being grounded awaiting engine changes

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation has now warned IndiGo that all its 97 A320neo aircraft must have the modified P&W engines by January 31, failing which the planes will be grounded. The DGCA order comes a spooky week during which four IndiGo planes had to make emergency landings due to mid-air problems with their engines.

In the interim, DGCA has also asked IndiGo to replace P&W engines of 23 A320neo planes by November 19 or else they would be grounded. "Kindly note that after that none of these 23 aircraft, which does not have at least one LPT (low pressure turbine) modified engine on its wings, shall be allowed for commercial operation and their schedule will suitably be curtailed till this is accomplished," the DGCA said.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-11-01

The DGCA is taking a stronger approach saying that engine replacement must be done at any cost by January.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:24 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
The situation at IndiGo and its 97 A320neos continues to get worse with 4 inflight shutdowns in a week.

On three consecutive days from October 24 to 26, IndiGo had three in-flight PW engine shutdowns, compelling the aviation regulator DGCA to visit the airline's premises on Monday to review the maintenance and safety data

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indigo- ... ek-2125022

The regulatory is now mandating engine replacements, which are resulting in airplanes being grounded awaiting engine changes

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation has now warned IndiGo that all its 97 A320neo aircraft must have the modified P&W engines by January 31, failing which the planes will be grounded. The DGCA order comes a spooky week during which four IndiGo planes had to make emergency landings due to mid-air problems with their engines.

In the interim, DGCA has also asked IndiGo to replace P&W engines of 23 A320neo planes by November 19 or else they would be grounded. "Kindly note that after that none of these 23 aircraft, which does not have at least one LPT (low pressure turbine) modified engine on its wings, shall be allowed for commercial operation and their schedule will suitably be curtailed till this is accomplished," the DGCA said.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-11-01

The DGCA is taking a stronger approach saying that engine replacement must be done at any cost by January.


Unless the "fix" is a simple one to make, I would highly doubt that these arbitrary compliance dates will be able to be met.

Frontier 14
 
MCTSET
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:56 pm

This is honesty huge.

It is definitely not a good look for PW when you biggest customer gets screwed over because of your mistake, after this I think PW have lost indigo.

Future sales campaign have got much harder, but for good reason 4 shutdowns in a week means problems.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:10 pm

How does the PurePower still have any ETOPS rating, 4 in flight shutdowns in a week across 97 neos. Are other PW neo's having shutdowns like IndiGo?
 
T4thH
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:07 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
How does the PurePower still have any ETOPS rating, 4 in flight shutdowns in a week across 97 neos. Are other PW neo's having shutdowns like IndiGo?

India is a little bit special. IndiGo ordered the A320Neo with the PW engine; they have got many jets with the first engine version, which was full of flaws and PW is still upgrading them to an up to date upgrade status.
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.
 
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Revelation
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:20 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
Unless the "fix" is a simple one to make, I would highly doubt that these arbitrary compliance dates will be able to be met.

Indeed. If the core issue is safety, I wonder why the decision to ground all aircraft without "at least one LPT (low pressure turbine) modified engine on its wings" was not made with immediate effect.

MCTSET wrote:
after this I think PW have lost indigo

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKBN1X80XC says:

It also came days after IndiGo’s biggest quarterly loss, with the company hurt by issues surrounding engines from a former supplier on A320neo-family jets already in the airline’s fleet.

In June, IndiGo dropped its original engine supplier, UnitedTechnologies (UTX.N) unit Pratt & Whitney, in favor of French-U.S. engine venture CFM by agreeing a record $20 billion deal for more than 600 engines to power Airbus jets already on order.

The choice of engine manufacturer for this order will be made at a later date, said Riyaz Peermohamed, IndiGo’s chief aircraft acquisition and financing officer.

A new deal for 300 A320neo-family aircraft would be worth $33 billion at the most recent list prices, published in 2018, but a deal of this scale would come in well below half that after discounts, according to aircraft valuation experts.

So P&W has been replaced already by CFM for the current batch, and the next order is still being negotiated.
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ikolkyo
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:23 pm

Yikes, this is huge.
 
EIN009
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:44 pm

the issue is the propulsion units ..... not the aircraft
 
bmartino99
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:49 pm

EIN009 wrote:
the issue is the propulsion units ..... not the aircraft


Can't you say that about anything? Like its the software....not the aircraft?
 
vadodara
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:28 pm

T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.


Seems like PW's engine work like FuelCells!
 
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zeke
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:01 am

MCTSET wrote:
This is honesty huge.

It is definitely not a good look for PW when you biggest customer gets screwed over because of your mistake, after this I think PW have lost indigo.

Future sales campaign have got much harder, but for good reason 4 shutdowns in a week means problems.


It isn’t as bad as it seems, over half of their aircraft have been fitted with LPT modified engines.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
P1aneMad
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:59 am

bmartino99 wrote:
EIN009 wrote:
the issue is the propulsion units ..... not the aircraft


Can't you say that about anything? Like its the software....not the aircraft?

Not if you are the one who wrote said software.
Don't get me wrong, Airbus is also responsible for choosing to offer their aircraft with this engine just like BBD is, Embraer and eventually Mitsubishi and Irkut MC-21.
But the level of responsibility is a lot smaller for an engine made by Pratt or anyone else and writing yourself the software for your flight computer.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:26 am

MCTSET wrote:
This is honesty huge.

It is definitely not a good look for PW when you biggest customer gets screwed over because of your mistake, after this I think PW have lost indigo.

Future sales campaign have got much harder, but for good reason 4 shutdowns in a week means problems.

They have lost at least 500 aircraft (i.e. 1000 engines) order from IndiGo to CFM already.

T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?
 
DYSK
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:56 am

T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?[/quote]

Yes and no, remember that oxygen is the resource needed to ignite in the engine in order to produce thrust. If oxygen is not supplied (in the right mixture) the engine will suffocate. In theory at least. I'm not sure how fragile an engine actually is regarding pollution in general though.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:02 am

Do they think the engines like lego which can change immediately when they want
 
T4thH
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:23 am

DYSK wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


Yes and no, remember that oxygen is the resource needed to ignite in the engine in order to produce thrust. If oxygen is not supplied (in the right mixture) the engine will suffocate. In theory at least. I'm not sure how fragile an engine actually is regarding pollution in general though.


The last generation of jet engines is extremely souped up. They are pimped to the limits and some of them even above, as we can see at the Trent 1000 with the uncontained failures, the PW1000G family with the uncontained failures and corrosion issues , the Leap family with the vibration issues and many others. If anything goes wrong or is a little bit outside of the expected range, the engines will start to pop in masses. Just remind, a little software change and the over-pimped PW15024G engines of the A220-300 of Swiss (and one of Tanzania air) have had also several uncontained engine failures in shortest time.

And the PW1000G family has big issues with corrosion.

The whole northern part of India with all the big cities is one single big bowl of air pollution, regarding of the "fogging" effect of all of the shit in the air, the temperature on the ground is even up to 2 °C lower during day and higher during the nights in whole northern India and the northern islands of Maldivian who are in the polluted airstream (the southern part of the Maldivian are not).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-polluted_cities_by_particulate_matter_concentration

And it is not only small particles it is also sulfur dioxide, NOx and others, who produce weak acids which are corrosive; as said, the PW1000G family has a big issue with corrosion, especially the first generations of them. These over-pimped jet engines are aging in time lapse and are popping regarding corrosion of parts.
https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/air/maharashtra-gujarat-top-sulphur-dioxide-polluters-in-india-66250
And just these few last till now not upgraded early generation PW1100G engines of IndiGo are now forced to be replaced.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:35 am

T4thH wrote:
DYSK wrote:
Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


Yes and no, remember that oxygen is the resource needed to ignite in the engine in order to produce thrust. If oxygen is not supplied (in the right mixture) the engine will suffocate. In theory at least. I'm not sure how fragile an engine actually is regarding pollution in general though.


The last generation of jet engines is extremely souped up. They are pimped to the limits and some of them even above, as we can see at the Trent 1000 with the uncontained failures, the PW1000G family with the uncontained failures and corrosion issues , the Leap family with the vibration issues and many others. If anything goes wrong or is a little bit outside of the expected range, the engines will start to pop in masses. Just remind, a little software change and the over-pimped PW15024G engines of the A220-300 of Swiss (and one of Tanzania air) have had also several uncontained engine failures in shortest time.

And the PW1000G family has big issues with corrosion.

The whole northern part of India with all the big cities is one single big bowl of air pollution, regarding of the "fogging" effect of all of the shit in the air, the temperature on the ground is even up to 2 °C lower during day and higher during the nights in whole northern India and the northern islands of Maldivian who are in the polluted airstream (the southern part of the Maldivian are not).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-polluted_cities_by_particulate_matter_concentration

And it is not only small particles it is also sulfur dioxide, NOx and others, who produce weak acids which are corrosive; as said, the PW1000G family has a big issue with corrosion, especially the first generations of them. These over-pimped jet engines are aging in time lapse and are popping regarding corrosion of parts.
https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/air/maharashtra-gujarat-top-sulphur-dioxide-polluters-in-india-66250
And just these few last till now not upgraded early generation PW1100G engines of IndiGo are now forced to be replaced.

thanks, that was a good explanation.

I don't see any solution for pollution in North India for atleast next 10 years (not that I see anything beyond that either .. ). IndiGo might start getting huge issues with their entire fleet 5-6 years down the line due to corrosion. North India is where a lot of money is, so they can't even think of not flying NEO there. Major bases like DEL, ATQ and LKO are present in the region.
 
BOSAero
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:46 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
How does the PurePower still have any ETOPS rating, 4 in flight shutdowns in a week across 97 neos. Are other PW neo's having shutdowns like IndiGo?

Government lobbying.
 
SteelChair
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Actually, this kind of seems like business as usual.

You've got some known issues. So you stagger the engines (don't put two of the same known bad batch on the same airplane) and give the operator until the end of January to change them all out. Happens all the time.

The ongoing problem is why PW can't make this engine run reliably. They claimed that they had it all figured out prior to EIS. Manufacturers always make all these promises. More and more, I have come to see PW as a government contractor (USAF mostly) that can't compere in the commercial market space.
Last edited by SteelChair on Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SteelChair
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:05 pm

BOSAero wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
How does the PurePower still have any ETOPS rating, 4 in flight shutdowns in a week across 97 neos. Are other PW neo's having shutdowns like IndiGo?

Government lobbying.

I don't buy that. But I've often wondered the same thing. I've long wondered how the 2037 got ETOPS. It's horrendous compared to the RR reliability on the 757.

Its beginning to look like PW squandered their opportunity with the GTF. They are just unable to build reliable engines.
 
HugoJunkers
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:12 pm

The Indian Regulator is taking a statistical approach and is requiring only 1 engine to be changed per airframe by end of January or be subject to grounding. Since 45% of the 98 airframes or so already comply Indigo need to change out only 54 engines over the next 3 months (90 days). Assuming a 5 day working weak and a one day swap out per engine they should manage 60 engines. I imagine they’ll get quite good at it.
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:33 pm

DYSK wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


That's got to be the stupidest thing I've read. Air pollution killing jet engines?

And air quality in India is bad only in some of the big cities and a few other places in the North. It is not like these planes have been flying only in and around these places.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
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zeke
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:

That's got to be the stupidest thing I've read. Air pollution killing jet engines?


It is, the pollution when mixed with water in the atmosphere forms sulphuric acid which is well known for eating the outer coating of turbine blades from all manufacturers.
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anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:02 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
DYSK wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


That's got to be the stupidest thing I've read. Air pollution killing jet engines?

And air quality in India is bad only in some of the big cities and a few other places in the North. It is not like these planes have been flying only in and around these places.

Entire North India is land locked, which makes literally the entire region polluted. One large and polluted city is located every 200 km in the region. And, if nothing else, a large number of a/c spend their nights and fly from Delhi or Lucknow.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:15 pm

DYSK wrote:
Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap

I'm fairly certain the Trent 1000 has the same problem with pollution. Corrosion and the coatings on the blades they sound very similar. Both problems have both been linked to operating in pollution.

The Pratt GTF should have the ETOPS certification removed for a few years. Grounding the aircraft would be a bit extreme.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:19 pm

SteelChair wrote:
The ongoing problem is why PW can't make this engine run reliably. They claimed that they had it all figured out prior to EIS. Manufacturers always make all these promises. More and more, I have come to see PW as a government contractor (USAF mostly) that can't compere in the commercial market space.

I think they will get it right eventually, but this early startup phase is terrible for everyone involved.

HugoJunkers wrote:
The Indian Regulator is taking a statistical approach and is requiring only 1 engine to be changed per airframe by end of January or be subject to grounding. Since 45% of the 98 airframes or so already comply Indigo need to change out only 54 engines over the next 3 months (90 days). Assuming a 5 day working weak and a one day swap out per engine they should manage 60 engines. I imagine they’ll get quite good at it.

Do we know that there are 54 repaired engines available over the next 90 days, while still meeting demands of the production lines as well?
DIJKKIJK wrote:
DYSK wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Second and this is really important, the air pollution in India. The pollution is so worse, it kills the jet engines early.

Sorry, but no other engine is getting busted due to pollution, including CFM Leap
And since burning jet fuel itself produces pollution wouldn't it be weird if engines stop working due to their own exhaust?


That's got to be the stupidest thing I've read. Air pollution killing jet engines?

And air quality in India is bad only in some of the big cities and a few other places in the North. It is not like these planes have been flying only in and around these places.

Read #16, it is a real thing.

Pollutants combine to produce a weak acid that coats the blades, breaking down the coatings that protect the complex alloys needed to give the blades tremendous strength. The acid is weak but there's no way to wash it off the blades so it does its job 24 by 7 and all it takes is one blade to snap and cause a cascade and unbalance the engine resulting in IFSD.

I just heard on BBC World Service that the pollution is the worst it's ever been in Delhi, five million masks have been handed out to children, planes are diverting because they hit minimums before they see the runway.
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Given these sorts of problems with a variety of engine manufacturers it seems to me that a lot of what should be product development work is these days taking place after delivery in commercial service. Not a good trend.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:47 pm

Regarding the pollution: we need to find out what China did 10 years ago and follow through with the same. Beijing was in the midst of a similar mess at the time of their Olympics and the years that followed, but since then have contained the situation somewhat.
Vahroone
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:12 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Given these sorts of problems with a variety of engine manufacturers it seems to me that a lot of what should be product development work is these days taking place after delivery in commercial service. Not a good trend.

At best I think we see companies giving themselves the benefit of the doubt too much.

There is a definite optimism bias with regard to many issues that crop up, i.e. what we have is good enough, no need to resolve that ugly issue before we ship.

They seem to forget the old maxims about the later you find the problem, the more it costs to fix.

The people in charge of development tend to think in terms of how quickly/cheaply can we get the product out the door.

It tends to be someone else's job to worry about the product once it is out in the field.

Usually by the time the problems show up the developers have moved on to the next project, and can deflect blame for any issues that went unresolved.

I've heard "man, we were moving really fast, we could not have been expected to think about the long term stuff" from many development engineers.

And if you want their help in solving the problem, you can't criticize them especially if you weren't part of the development team.

Chances are lots of P&W managers got bonuses for shipping the product, even though the early high/hot tests should have told them that disaster was lurking.
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anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:21 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Regarding the pollution: we need to find out what China did 10 years ago and follow through with the same. Beijing was in the midst of a similar mess at the time of their Olympics and the years that followed, but since then have contained the situation somewhat.


I don't think China was at any time fighting politics over stubble burning by farmers, or allowing cheap and polluting methods for just about anything for appeasement.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:33 pm

IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:44 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Regarding the pollution: we need to find out what China did 10 years ago and follow through with the same. Beijing was in the midst of a similar mess at the time of their Olympics and the years that followed, but since then have contained the situation somewhat.


I don't think China was at any time fighting politics over stubble burning by farmers, or allowing cheap and polluting methods for just about anything for appeasement.

The price you pay for freedom is bad air?

It's funny how in the US so many people hate the regulations that now give us clean air, which all came about due to massive unrest in the 60s where people decided they simply did not want to live in a polluted climate, the kind of consensus that seems impossible to achieve in the modern era.

China has cleaner air because the government can do WTF they want to do on the mainland, meanwhile we have street protests in HK.

dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.

Your post seems to not take into account the four engine shut downs in one week.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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vadodara
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.


Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:56 pm

vadodara wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.


Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?


These were all early generation engines, the last still not upgraded. They are now all reaching higher number of flight hours and start to fail.
 
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Revelation
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:05 pm

T4thH wrote:
vadodara wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.

Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?

These were all early generation engines, the last still not upgraded. They are now all reaching higher number of flight hours and start to fail.

True, but doesn't explain the "DCGA now going after Indigo / Nothing to do with safety culture" narrative being floated.
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
T4thH wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?

These were all early generation engines, the last still not upgraded. They are now all reaching higher number of flight hours and start to fail.

True, but doesn't explain the "DCGA now going after Indigo / Nothing to do with safety culture" narrative being floated.


Precisely my point. Both IndiGo and Pratt got really long latitude in fixing this issue.

Either praying that the problem will go away or conspiracy theories does not help either of the 2 companies credibility.
 
anshabhi
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:32 pm

Also, "the airline which has DGCA in pocket" is suffering even more due to complete grounding of MAX
 
edealinfo
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
The price you pay for freedom is bad air?


Absolutely. That's what's called "trade offs".
 
sabby
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:42 pm

I think it is more to do with humidity than just pollution itself. China has it worse and they have similar number of A320neo running yet not many incidents if in flight shutdowns. Just China Southern have 48 PW powered A320neos.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:20 pm

vadodara wrote:
Precisely my point. Both IndiGo and Pratt got really long latitude in fixing this issue.

Either praying that the problem will go away or conspiracy theories does not help either of the 2 companies credibility.

We are in agreement.

edealinfo wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The price you pay for freedom is bad air?


Absolutely. That's what's called "trade offs".

True. The problem seems to be that the bad air hits Northern India after the crop burn happens when the post-monsoon winds are calm, and eventually goes away. If it were more persistent perhaps the trade off would be made differently.

sabby wrote:
I think it is more to do with humidity than just pollution itself. China has it worse and they have similar number of A320neo running yet not many incidents if in flight shutdowns. Just China Southern have 48 PW powered A320neos.

Probably newer builds as well.
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:35 pm

sabby wrote:
I think it is more to do with humidity than just pollution itself. China has it worse and they have similar number of A320neo running yet not many incidents if in flight shutdowns. Just China Southern have 48 PW powered A320neos.


Sorry, but the air in China has fast greatly enhanced in last years, especially regarding sulfur dioxide. In big parts of China, it is still bad but in comparison to India, it is already "clean"... In China, everything is so fast changing, the knowledge status of last year is not any more up to date this year. The most polluted area in the world is now northern half of India and the cities with most polluted air are now also in India (and not any more in China). Of the most worse 40 globally are 30 or so from India? And especially sulfur dioxide air pollution can be really avoided.
When did China Southern got the PW powered A320 Neo? The issues were with the first produced generation/batches of PW1100 engines and not any more with the last versions (...till now; we will see in few years). Lufthansa got the first A320Neo (with Leap) and IndiGo according to my knowledge was the first with the PW.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:03 pm

T4thH wrote:
Lufthansa got the first A320Neo (with Leap) and IndiGo according to my knowledge was the first with the PW.

LH’s Neos are currently all PW powered. They have ordered Leaps for part of their remaining orders however. Pegasus Airlines in Turkey took the first CFM about 6 months after Neo deliveries started.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:53 pm

Polot wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Lufthansa got the first A320Neo (with Leap) and IndiGo according to my knowledge was the first with the PW.

LH’s Neos are currently all PW powered. They have ordered Leaps for part of their remaining orders however. Pegasus Airlines in Turkey took the first CFM about 6 months after Neo deliveries started.


Yes, of course you are right, I mixed something with the LH and A320 orders.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
T4thH wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?

These were all early generation engines, the last still not upgraded. They are now all reaching higher number of flight hours and start to fail.

True, but doesn't explain the "DCGA now going after Indigo / Nothing to do with safety culture" narrative being floated.


Assuming the incident reporting is accurate, avherald data shows 2019 is no worse than in 2018. Well-run airlines idle engines without shutting it down, a technique used to keep IFSD stats low.

A few months back I said regular inspections are the only way to avoid IFSDs, was put down promptly, week after DGCA issued asking for more inspections. Even today I don't believe regular inspections are done.

PW is going to pay for swaps, pay compensation, DGCA looked the other way, so fly until it pops is the business model.

I think this has to do with 300 neo order angered someone than the five engine issues in a week.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:57 pm

T4thH wrote:

The last generation of jet engines is extremely souped up. They are pimped to the limits and some of them even above, as we can see at the Trent 1000 with the uncontained failures, the PW1000G family with the uncontained failures and corrosion issues , the Leap family with the vibration issues and many others. If anything goes wrong or is a little bit outside of the expected range, the engines will start to pop in masses. Just remind, a little software change and the over-pimped PW15024G engines of the A220-300 of Swiss (and one of Tanzania air) have had also several uncontained engine failures in shortest time.

And the PW1000G family has big issues with corrosion.



Sorry for double post, but it fits here:
The first twinjet was A300. It's first flight was 1972 with around 220 kN engines.
B767 had first flight in 1981. Surprising the engines had only 210 kN. So no increase in power in these nine years. I assume Boeing chose 7 abrest to increase range versus A300.
A330 had first flight in 1992. Engines somewhere around 311 kN.
B777 had first flight 1994. Engines around 350 kN, but already one year later 410 kN.

It took 20 years for a stronger engine to enter the market. I assume engine manufacturers were more concerned with making them more reliable than with making them bigger.


Concerning pollution with the B787:
"Cracking problems in the intermediate pressure (IPT) section of the turbine have plagued the engine since early 2016, five years after its launch.
...
According to Horwood, the problem was caused by sulphurisation; a chemical process affecting the nickel alloy which comprises the IPT blades. “We are very confident that this problem will not occur in any of our other engines,” Horwood said. “This is confined to component level in the Trent 1000.”

The geometry around the root of the IPT blade concentrated air sucked in by the engine’s compressor system, which in some parts of the world (notably Asia) contained higher levels of sulphur-containing pollutants than the engine had been tested with. The temperatures within the IPT and some of the specialised coatings on the blade may have exacerbated the problem, Horwood said, producing air turbulence and local temperature increases that led to fatigue-like behaviour in the metal which resulted in cracking."
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/rolls-roy ... rent-1000/

We know that pollution caused engine problems for B787s' Trent 1000.
Do we know that PW's engines on A320 Neos failed because of pollution or is it just an assumption? Do we have a source?

I remember as a child in Germany in the 1980s dying forest by sulfur pollution from coal power plants was a political issue. Industry argued the technology is so costly and would increase electricity prices so much that Germany won't be competitive any more. Today environmental technology is one of Germany's top export industry.
Anyway it's not like pollution was a problem centuries ago in today's rich countries.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:33 pm

Sokes wrote:
[


Concerning pollution with the B787:
"Cracking problems in the intermediate pressure (IPT) section of the turbine have plagued the engine since early 2016, five years after its launch.
...
According to Horwood, the problem was caused by sulphurisation; a chemical process affecting the nickel alloy which comprises the IPT blades. “We are very confident that this problem will not occur in any of our other engines,” Horwood said. “This is confined to component level in the Trent 1000.”
s.


Precisely! The engines were not tested in harsher environments.

IndiGo planes also fly to arid and dusty climes of the Arabian peninsula. The engine maker needs to be cognizant of the operating conditions.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:53 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Regarding the pollution: we need to find out what China did 10 years ago and follow through with the same. Beijing was in the midst of a similar mess at the time of their Olympics and the years that followed, but since then have contained the situation somewhat.


I don't think China was at any time fighting politics over stubble burning by farmers, or allowing cheap and polluting methods for just about anything for appeasement.


Its called Communalism and it will be the death of India.
 
rbavfan
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:56 pm

vadodara wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.


Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?


The polution is higher in this time of year due to field burn of.
 
Antarius
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:02 pm

rbavfan wrote:
vadodara wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
IMHO losing Indigo is not a bad thing for PW. PW replaced so many engines for Indigo and if they have to continue to support at the same pace because of its contractual obligations, it cannot focus on permanent fix and other customers.

When DGCA was in Indigo's pocket they let them do whatever they want, now DGCA is in the pocket of a different airline, they are going after Indigo. This has nothing to do with safety culture.


Do you have any explanation for the recent engine problems at IndiGo?


The polution is higher in this time of year due to field burn of.


Yes. I think the poster was pointing out the absurdity of the "going after Indigo" comment though. As if someone is inventing this and there is no issue actually present.
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keesje
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Re: India tells IndiGo to Replace all A320neo Engines After 4 Shutdowns in a Week

Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:44 pm

Seems a logical decision by DGCA. I like authorities that take themselves & regulations seriously.
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