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airtechy
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Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:30 am

Story says that Air India and SpiceJet are diverting flights due to extreme air pollution in Delhi, India. What I found interesting is that ... if you can believe the article .. some pilots are not qualified to land in "low visibility conditions". I know that some airlines only allow especially trained pilots to land at particularly hazardous airports, but I thought that all commercial pilots were required to be able to land using what would normally be a standard instrument landing required for fog, clouds, etc.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/03/indi ... index.html
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:40 am

Maybe not CAT II or CAT III equipped and trained? Delhi is perfect conditions for EVS landings, 500m viz, had the entire airport in sight at 5 miles in the HUD.

GF
 
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3rdGen
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:45 am

It is not a 'requirement' for commercial pilots to be trained to land in low visibility conditions (less than 550m). Nor is it a requirement that airlines get certified to carry out low visibility operations.

However you're right, it's rare for a commercial airline not to be certified. And it is even more rare that an airline that IS certified for low visibility operations to have pilots that aren't. Definitely a major inefficiency.

However, having said that some airlines may only train the majority of pilots to Catagory 2 minima (minimum of 300m visibility) and maybe only a few to Catagory 3 (minimum of 75m) if the bean counters do the math and realise that the cost of training etc. outweighs potential benefits, especially if the airline can anticipate when Cat 3 is required and schedules pilots accordingly. At the end of the day Cat3 is pretty rare.
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edealinfo
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:46 am

Didn't a foreign airline temporarily stop flights operations to New Delhi a couple of years ago because the flight attendants complained? I can't recall the name of the airline but think it was either a US or European airline.
 
airtechy
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:24 am

Ok. I had forgotten about the "catagories" as my rating .. years ago .. was only cat 1. It still seems hard to believe that smog would drive the cat's to 2 or 3. :o
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:38 am

edealinfo wrote:
Didn't a foreign airline temporarily stop flights operations to New Delhi a couple of years ago because the flight attendants complained? I can't recall the name of the airline but think it was either a US or European airline.

That's United.

Michael
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:25 am

Looks like there's a United flight enroute to BOM now:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL48

eamondzhang wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Didn't a foreign airline temporarily stop flights operations to New Delhi a couple of years ago because the flight attendants complained? I can't recall the name of the airline but think it was either a US or European airline.

That's United.

Michael
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 am

ATRs and Q400s are only CAT II. If visibility gets too bad, they can't land.
 
Blerg
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:53 am

So what exactly is causing all this heavy pollution in Delhi? I suppose it must be from some factories but which kind?
 
danirich26
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:59 am

I fly into Delhi at least once a month, the visibility can get very, very bad sometimes, especially at night and around dawn and dusk. Jaipur is another one that's awful for visibility (and is also relatively close to Delhi), went there yesterday and reported vis was 1200m with a very heavy smell of smoke in the air.

Can understand why the option is taken to divert. However as other posters have mentioned, most low vis certified airlines train their pilots to the maximum (minimum vis) category as low visibility can strike at any tim. In our proficiency checks every 6 months we even have to do an LVP part to be recertified. (my airline is cat 3 capable, however, subsidiaries of this airline are only equipped up to cat 2)
Last edited by danirich26 on Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:00 am

FlyHossD wrote:
Looks like there's a United flight enroute to BOM now:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL48

eamondzhang wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Didn't a foreign airline temporarily stop flights operations to New Delhi a couple of years ago because the flight attendants complained? I can't recall the name of the airline but think it was either a US or European airline.

That's United.

Michael

What does this have to do with air pollution in DEL?

And that was historical event that edealinfo was asking, not right now.

Michael
 
hz747300
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:22 am

In Delhi it can be smoke and dust. It's in a dry, flat area with lots of cars and around 20m people. It's unbelievably polluted with exhaust so I can imagine any additional condition would make it have a low viz day. I was based there on a project for 6-7 weeks about 4 years ago. After a rain, there would be a good 6-8 hours of relief then it is all back again.
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WkndWanderer
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
ATRs and Q400s are only CAT II. If visibility gets too bad, they can't land.


The Q400 is capable of CAT III, although don’t know about SpiceJet’s.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/new ... ercom.html
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:34 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ATRs and Q400s are only CAT II. If visibility gets too bad, they can't land.


The Q400 is capable of CAT III, although don’t know about SpiceJet’s.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/new ... ercom.html
 
VTORD
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:39 am

Blerg wrote:
So what exactly is causing all this heavy pollution in Delhi? I suppose it must be from some factories but which kind?

Around this time a lot of it is due to "stubble burning" in neighboring states as farmers use quick means to cycle between the summer harvests and the winter crops. As the temperatures start getting colder, the fog makes it worse.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:01 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
ATRs and Q400s are only CAT II. If visibility gets too bad, they can't land.


The Q400 is capable of CAT III, although don’t know about SpiceJet’s.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/new ... ercom.html


Judging by the cockpit photos I've seen, their machines are only CAT II... they lack all of the equipment associated with CAT IIIA capability.
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:02 am

From what I remember, Trent 1000 corrosion issues were due to the heavy pollution above Asian cities.

I don't think they had maintenance in mind when they made the decision to divert, but it's something to take into account.

(More details here: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21770123#p21770123)
Last edited by LaunchDetected on Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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anshabhi
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:04 am

airtechy wrote:
Ok. I had forgotten about the "catagories" as my rating .. years ago .. was only cat 1. It still seems hard to believe that smog would drive the cat's to 2 or 3. :o


From now till the end of Winters, Delhi drops to CAT III B almost every night. 50% fog + 50% smoke = 100% smog.

Not kidding, air inside your room is likely to be fresher than outside air during this period.
 
Adipocere
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:18 am

How bad is this fog when compared to the seasonal forest burning smog in SIN, CGK and maybe KUL?
 
migair54
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:20 am

VTORD wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So what exactly is causing all this heavy pollution in Delhi? I suppose it must be from some factories but which kind?

Around this time a lot of it is due to "stubble burning" in neighboring states as farmers use quick means to cycle between the summer harvests and the winter crops. As the temperatures start getting colder, the fog makes it worse.


All of that added to the usual bad visibility in most cities in India and Pakistan because of pollution from vehicles, factories, power plants, houses, etc.. I hard to see DEL, MAA, BOM or CCU with more than 2500 or 3000 m visibility.


I don't know why are they diverting but in many cases it could be as mentioned above because the planes are not capable of landing in CATII and CATIII, in other cases is maybe because when visibility is bad the holdings and the approach pace is much slower, separation between planes is much bigger, sometimes up to 2 times the normal in good condition, so they don't have enough fuel to hold more and they have to go somewhere else.
Most probably pilots in training are also not allow to do anything more than CAT I.

this weather is normal in Delhi a few times a year, Even Delhi being ready for LVOPS I can tell you from personal experience that it's not an easy place in this kind of weather, the lighting and markings are not very good in some areas and the use of both runways for Arr and Deps at the same time make things a bit more complicated. specially in the 10/28 runway.
I hope they build a new runway in the south soon, Delhi is getting short of capacity, a third paralel runways will be very welcome.
 
Ellofiend
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:23 am

Delhi pollution would be particularly bad around now with the monsoon season over and the Diwali having just passed, the pollution would be sitting right over Delhi and nothing anyone can do about it, unfortunately.

Edit: https://waqi.info/#/c/28.611/77.547/8.6z , earlier today I saw readings into the 900's compared with single digits in more developed/sustainable cities including some above the 2mil urb pop mark
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:27 am

with nearly 1/2 million movements per year and what looks to be like a 2 runway operation (there's 3 but realistically looks like 2 would be used), could it be that worse weather requires increased separation therefore a lower rate of landing and something has to give.

Fred
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LAXBUR
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:38 am

Before traveling to India I was told numerous negative things. Coming from LA I didn’t find most of these things to be as bad as described. However, the air quality was awful and those outside of maybe China and perhaps 1950s London can’t really imagine it. I researched Delhi and subsequently bought a mask; the air pollution there was unbearable.
 
ewt340
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:10 pm

Yeah, you guys doesn't know much about air pollution in Asia. It's like silent hill over here.
 
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:44 pm

Ellofiend wrote:
Delhi pollution would be particularly bad around now with the monsoon season over and the Diwali having just passed, the pollution would be sitting right over Delhi and nothing anyone can do about it, unfortunately.

Edit: https://waqi.info/#/c/28.611/77.547/8.6z , earlier today I saw readings into the 900's compared with single digits in more developed/sustainable cities including some above the 2mil urb pop mark

Sure, "someone" could propose a law banning farmers from burning their fields at the end of the season with fines/jail for lack of compliance. No real difficulty collecting the evidence, right? Provide an alternative for clearing the fields i.e. cooperative ownership of appropriate machinery. Either that, or deal with bills for treating lung ailments, be prepared for a decade or more shorter life, more costly air travel due to diversions, increased risk of air/road/rail incidents/accidents, etc.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:43 pm

Adipocere wrote:
How bad is this fog when compared to the seasonal forest burning smog in SIN, CGK and maybe KUL?


That's not an easy question. One could say flights are being diverted due to poor visibility (ignoring the Trent corrosion issue) but then you need to look at the pollution elements responsible for poor visibility. Particulates from burning fields? Fine PM from industrial processes and diesel? NOx + VOCs + sunshine = photochemical smog. Peak levels or average levels? Ground level measurements or at some useful elevations? This is a great project to split between IATA and the World Health Organization.
 
T4thH
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
How bad is this fog when compared to the seasonal forest burning smog in SIN, CGK and maybe KUL?


That's not an easy question. One could say flights are being diverted due to poor visibility (ignoring the Trent corrosion issue) but then you need to look at the pollution elements responsible for poor visibility. Particulates from burning fields? Fine PM from industrial processes and diesel? NOx + VOCs + sunshine = photochemical smog. Peak levels or average levels? Ground level measurements or at some useful elevations? This is a great project to split between IATA and the World Health Organization.


Do not forget SOx, as northern half of India is now the highest polluted area with SO2 in the world....it is just the highest air polluted region of the world.
Smog kills, it hams humans, animals, plants, reduces the live expectation, kills the health, especially of older and kids, destroys buildings, let much faster age metal (including jet engines)....
Of the 40 most air polluted cities in the world, 30 or so, are now in India? And the rural area between all of these high polluted cities...it is just the same shit.
 
asuflyer
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:37 pm

A SpiceJet 738 landing at DEL in the smog. The smog is so thick the winglet and engine are barely visible.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1191201053523378176
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:34 pm

Levels of dangerous particles in the air - known as PM2.5 - are at well over 10 times safe limits in the capital, are there any signs that Int.airlines will cancel flights. Knowly flying staff into dangerous conditions must leave them open to lawsuits.
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anshabhi
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:38 pm

Pollution in Delhi in just a reflection of much deeper social and political issues plaguing entire Delhi. The latest being Lawyers and police involved in bitter physical fight with each other.

The only good thing about nature is - rich or poor, powerful or common everyone gets the same air.

P.S.: The latest thought doing rounds in Delhi is pollution is a western concept and true Indians have nothing to worry about.
There's a lot wrong with the inherent society of Delhi.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:04 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Levels of dangerous particles in the air - known as PM2.5 - are at well over 10 times safe limits in the capital, are there any signs that Int.airlines will cancel flights. Knowly flying staff into dangerous conditions must leave them open to lawsuits.


I guess they shouldn't fly to Poland, Germany, or half the other countries of the EU.

https://www.dw.com/en/where-is-europes- ... a-46189571

EU limits are set per pollutant and in 2017, 16 out of the EU’s 28 member states reported at least one case of levels of nitrogen dioxide, a poisonous gas in car exhaust, being higher than the legal EU annual mean concentration. This list includes France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Britain.

Some stations in London, for example, reported levels of more than 50 micrograms of nitrogen dioxide per cubic meter of air, compared with the legal EU annual mean concentration of 40 micrograms.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-po ... SKBN1WV0V5
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Levels of dangerous particles in the air - known as PM2.5 - are at well over 10 times safe limits in the capital, are there any signs that Int.airlines will cancel flights. Knowly flying staff into dangerous conditions must leave them open to lawsuits.


I guess they shouldn't fly to Poland, Germany, or half the other countries of the EU.

https://www.dw.com/en/where-is-europes- ... a-46189571

EU limits are set per pollutant and in 2017, 16 out of the EU’s 28 member states reported at least one case of levels of nitrogen dioxide, a poisonous gas in car exhaust, being higher than the legal EU annual mean concentration. This list includes France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Britain.

Some stations in London, for example, reported levels of more than 50 micrograms of nitrogen dioxide per cubic meter of air, compared with the legal EU annual mean concentration of 40 micrograms.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-po ... SKBN1WV0V5

ummm... 10X limit deadly. Start calculating cigarettes per hour equivalent.

125% limit , yes is bad, but 1000% is much worse.

In the EU equivalent to smoking 1 or 2 cigarettes or hanging out with a smoker 2 hours per day. For Delhi, we are talking the equivalent of 33 cigarettes per day! Recall, the body heals up to 4 with an accelerated cancer risk.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/11668054

Everyone in Delhi is doing as much damage as a chain smoker. Smokers are doing far more as they start with 33 and add. Recall how much quicker a 2 pack a day smoker dies than one pack a day smoker. Bad EU air cities are like cheating with a smoke in the morning and night. Delhi is 33 cigarettes per day equivalent. I do not know anyone alive at my age who smoke more than 1 pack a day. I'm serious. All of my chain smoking friends are dead and that was in old Los Angeles, equivalent to 7 cigarettes per day in summer (clean air in winter). Modern LA is much cleaner (except this week due to fires).

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T4thH
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Re: Delhi air so polluted planes diverting

Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Levels of dangerous particles in the air - known as PM2.5 - are at well over 10 times safe limits in the capital, are there any signs that Int.airlines will cancel flights. Knowly flying staff into dangerous conditions must leave them open to lawsuits.


I guess they shouldn't fly to Poland, Germany, or half the other countries of the EU.

https://www.dw.com/en/where-is-europes- ... a-46189571

EU limits are set per pollutant and in 2017, 16 out of the EU’s 28 member states reported at least one case of levels of nitrogen dioxide, a poisonous gas in car exhaust, being higher than the legal EU annual mean concentration. This list includes France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Britain.

Some stations in London, for example, reported levels of more than 50 micrograms of nitrogen dioxide per cubic meter of air, compared with the legal EU annual mean concentration of 40 micrograms.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-po ... SKBN1WV0V5

Do you have a water heater fueled by gas in your flat? Of course accordingly and regular once yearly maintained and fulfilling all laws e.g.? You will have higher values in your flat (and please note, I have...). 50 microgram NOx and more,
Or even better, does someone has a gas cooker in his flat? Have fun, there will be something between 50 to 500 micrograms.

Does someone smoke cigarettes? The blue smoke of cigarettes is the definition of 2.5 particles. One pack per day for 1.5 month? That are more inhaled 2.5 particles, you will inhale in your whole live, if you are living a a place with at allowed concentration of particles.

The European rules regarding 2.5 particles and NOx are shit, we are talking about reduction of live time by hours in best case.

But what we see here in India is something totally different, this smog kills.

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