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GalebG4
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:52 am

Now 737 max order( commitment) for IAG makes sense since with UX and IB will make MAD as significant South American hub. UX and IB will have over 100 narrow body airplanes and over 70 wide body’s.
 
runway23
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:04 am

dfdubflyer wrote:
Does T4/T4S have capacity to pick up Air Europa ops eventually, or, would they want to keep those separated for the more leisure/package holiday crew? From what I recall transferring from T123 and T4 required exiting security and taking a bus to T4. Then again I’ve only flown AirEuropa once from BOS-MAD and it was a rough enough experience I would would go out of my way to avoid them


Providing UX flights operate outside the IB waves, then yes there is space at T4.
 
xiaotung
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:05 am

Confirmed by Investor Presentation page 14:

Integration plan
▪ Bolt-on acquisition within Iberia corporate structure
▪ Retention initially of the Air Europa brand
▪ Integration to be managed by Iberia and IAG
▪ Air Europa to leave SkyTeam
 
jfk777
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:21 am

SXDFC wrote:
Does this mean Iberia will operate the 737 and 787?


Part of the appeal for IAG in Air Europa are the 787's, they may get new paint in BA colors flying from the UK. While there are some markets IB doesn't fly to in Latin America that Air Europa does, it covers all major ones. Whatever the future for the AE fleet IAG will have no problem finding them a place in their fleet plans.
 
oschkosch
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:27 am

Why didn't LH go after UX? Could have made perfect sense for Spohr!

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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seahawk
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:33 am

Spanish market is not interesting for LH. LH has no interest in playing third or fourth fiddle in any market.
 
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Aisak
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:34 am

LupineChemist wrote:
I've long said the 787 makes a lot of sense at IB especially for longer thin routes where they're using the 332 right now.
[...]
I'm curious if there will be a terminal shuffle and they'll move to T4.


787s make sense in a company that has 787s. It made no sense at IB to keep a small subfleet of 787 in an all-airbus fleet.

Now the "small" 787-8 could be used for Level ¿?¿? Maybe... Perhaps... Level Spain is just a cost/profit center within IB, just like Air Europa will be.
The 787 makes sense at BA, and could make sense at BCN and ORY longhaul operations, but for the time being they will have to keep operating Longhaul from MAD as MAD is the base for the crew.


The move to T4 is something that could be taken for granted. AENA has pubicly stated that they have a problem with the ocupancy ratio of the T123 Terminal complex.
Air China, Norwegian, Plus Ultra and Aer Lingus were scheduled to move over to T4 because of space constrains.
Air Europa is waaaaay larger, but will help make room at T123. Too much maybe.
Last edited by Aisak on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:36 am

factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:54 am

Interesting purchase. UX seems mainly to be an O&D airline between Spain and South America, Canaries and the Balearics. They have a relatively small fleet of around ~35 narrow bodies compared to 23 A330/787s. I could see UX being the vehicle for LEVEL long-haul expansion from Spain, maybe even keeping the Air Europa name. It seems to suit the purpose of a pan-european value-driven airline. Mind you, I considered OpenSkies a far superior brand to LEVEL for this purpose, which is probably why Im not in marketing!

Cointrin330 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.


Clearly you haven't read the slide deck. LATAM accounts for 8% of passenger numbers between Europe and Central/South America, AirEuropa 7%. Obviously AirEuropa has no short-haul presence in Latin America, unlike LATAM.
Last edited by BrianDromey on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:55 am

Aisak wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
I've long said the 787 makes a lot of sense at IB especially for longer thin routes where they're using the 332 right now.
[...]
I'm curious if there will be a terminal shuffle and they'll move to T4.


787s make sense in a company that has 787s. It made no sense at IB to keep a small subfleet of 787 in an all-airbus fleet.

When all is said and done UX will have 26 787s (according to Wikipedia, I haven’t verified). That is not a small sub fleet- for perspective that is more than the number of A350s IB currently has on order (although I expect IB will eventually get more A350s), and larger than IB’s current A330 fleet.

That said I see it more likely that the 787s will be transferred to BA and Level (or whatever they end up naming they LCC after settling things with UX brand) rather than IB mainline.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:57 am

I really wish that the brand would stay - maybe even used for Vueling / Level at a later stage.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:58 am

Do not be surprised if Air Europa does not join one world Aer Lingus (also owner by IAG) was in one world, but has not been a member of any alliance since 2007.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:01 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Speechless!

On the other hand it makes sense. Madrid doesn’t need two carriers serving the same markets.


Indeed it does. It's a huge, vast market. Competition is good for the consumer!!! There's enough 'meat' in the EU-South America market for two large airlines to compete and keep both honest. Plus they both build hugely on feed connection from wealthy northern Europe as well.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:02 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.


I struggle to understand your rationale. Spain to LatAm is a big market but so is France to Africa and Germany to Turkey, both of which are dominated by SkyTeam and Star Alliance respectively. Competition isn't about providing non stop choices but providing choices overall. There are plenty of choices between Spain and South America, including 28 weekly Avianca flights to Bogota. The market is free and anyone is welcome to enter.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 pm

Terrible news. IAG will own the Spanish market, as well as a HUGE percentage of the EU-South America one. This is a very strategic move to consolidate MAD and protect IB's sphere of influence.
My two cents is that UX will simply cease to exist and ops folded into an even bigger and stronger IB at Madrid. Full stop.
LEVEL and Vueling have absolutely NOTHING to do with this - They are not even remotely part of the equation. IB would be stupid to undercut their prowess at MAD by diluting their own market into a LCC subsidiary. LEVEL and Vueling are for BCN only.
 
BestWestern
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 pm

We now have a lower cost operator for Iberia.

Iberia now have a chaotically confusing four brands in Spain.

Level
Iberia
Vueling
Air Europa

This is like Singapore airlines in 2016 and will change.

With Air Europa, We now have an operator and proper brand for Level.

I note from the presentation that IB is considered full service. Since when?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:12 pm

BestWestern wrote:
We now have a lower cost operator for Iberia.

Iberia now have a chaotically confusing four brands in Spain.

Level
Iberia
Vueling
Air Europa

This is like Singapore airlines in 2016 and will change.

With Air Europa, We now have an operator and proper brand for Level.

I note from the presentation that IB is considered full service. Since when?


Iberia Express and Air Nostrum for Iberia.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:38 pm

BestWestern wrote:
We now have a lower cost operator for Iberia.

Iberia now have a chaotically confusing four brands in Spain.

Level
Iberia
Vueling
Air Europa

This is like Singapore airlines in 2016 and will change.

With Air Europa, We now have an operator and proper brand for Level.

I note from the presentation that IB is considered full service. Since when?


I agree that IAG need to clear up their brand structure, as SIngapore had to also do.

The Air Europa taking over from Level would make sense
, as it at least seems like a stronger brand, but I do feel that eventually Vueling will also be absorbed into that branding.
Last edited by IndianicWorld on Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:39 pm

factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


That's the playground bully view of strategic planning, and significantly deficient in business generally and this case specifically. OneWorld doesn't buys carriers, nor does Skyteam. They don't have antitrust immunity for that sort of thing. This is a transaction that has to make sense for IAG and UX; oneworld be damned.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:39 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Interesting purchase. UX seems mainly to be an O&D airline between Spain and South America, Canaries and the Balearics. They have a relatively small fleet of around ~35 narrow bodies compared to 23 A330/787s. I could see UX being the vehicle for LEVEL long-haul expansion from Spain, maybe even keeping the Air Europa name. It seems to suit the purpose of a pan-european value-driven airline. Mind you, I considered OpenSkies a far superior brand to LEVEL for this purpose, which is probably why Im not in marketing!

Cointrin330 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.


Clearly you haven't read the slide deck. LATAM accounts for 8% of passenger numbers between Europe and Central/South America, AirEuropa 7%. Obviously AirEuropa has no short-haul presence in Latin America, unlike LATAM.


Clearly you haven't comprehended what I am saying.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:40 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Seismic strategic shock, equal to DL buying LATAM.

OneWorld hits out at SkyTeam, after SkyTeam hit out at OneWorld.


Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.


I struggle to understand your rationale. Spain to LatAm is a big market but so is France to Africa and Germany to Turkey, both of which are dominated by SkyTeam and Star Alliance respectively. Competition isn't about providing non stop choices but providing choices overall. There are plenty of choices between Spain and South America, including 28 weekly Avianca flights to Bogota. The market is free and anyone is welcome to enter.


I wasn't comparing LATAM to Air Europa in any terms other than LATAM leaving oneworld and Air Europa leaving Sky Team. The OP suggested these were similar events. They're not. Facts.
 
716131
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:43 pm

Will AA partner with UX after UX leaves ST?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:43 pm

Out of curiosity. Does anyone know the # of Departures for all IAG+UX vs total out of MAD? % of total?

Then the same for KL/AF/HV out of AMS, CDG.
And the same for all LH Group out of FRA and MUC?

The investor presentation is clearly relying on a comparison to the other hugely dominant hubs in Europe vs IB/UX overlap?

I'm just curious how dominant the new carrier would be relative to the other dominant European carriers. If the EU has allowed LH to dominate Germany and KL to dominate The Netherlands, it would seem difficult to prevent Iberia from being such a dominant player in Spain.
 
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Polot
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:46 pm

SQ789 wrote:
Will AA partner with UX after UX leaves ST?

PR says UX will be integrated in IAG’s joint ventures, so yes AA will partner with UX as part of the TATL JV they have with IAG.

But UX is of minimal use to AA-they don’t do anything for AA that IB doesn’t do better. This is all about strengthening IB (and hurting LATAM some by eliminating a feed source from MAD).
 
juliuswong
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:51 pm

Seems like MOL prediction is coming true....all that is left after all these consolidation will be IAG, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Wizz and Easyjet. Everything else will be insignificant.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
FluidFlow
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:57 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Seems like MOL prediction is coming true....all that is left after all these consolidation will be IAG, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Wizz and Easyjet. Everything else will be insignificant.


I am pretty sure LH will be there as well
 
J343
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:58 pm

How is IAG owning the Spanish market different to the LH group dominating the Swiss and German market?
 
JibberJim
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Seems like MOL prediction is coming true....all that is left after all these consolidation will be IAG, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Wizz and Easyjet. Everything else will be insignificant.


I am pretty sure LH will be there as well


Nah, FR will buy them.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Seems like MOL prediction is coming true....all that is left after all these consolidation will be IAG, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Wizz and Easyjet. Everything else will be insignificant.


I think it’s a fairly common view that consolidation will increase across Europe, so MOL is largely just a parrot on that.

IAG, AF/KLM, Lufthansa Group are already the dominant players in the legacy space, with the LCC’s likely next to find new partnerships/mergers. Whether it be EasyJet and Wizzair that end up together, or Ryanair seeing some value in taking over all or part of Norwegian if the deal was right to expand its reach, who knows what the future holds.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:12 pm

Reckon we might see the UX fleet carry on as it is and stick with the 73/78 combo. The fleet is large enough and replacing them with Airbuses makes little sense. The 787 is ideal and there isn't much you could replace them with that would be better, and certainly not worth the capex expenditure. I don't see BA taking any of them.

What will happen (I think) is a merge of brands and operations for Vueling, Level and Air Europa - they'll rebrand it all into something different, perhaps under the Level banner as they've done a lot of marketing on it and its a nice new brand that would cover all three nicely.

Short haul will be a mix of A320/737 but i think they might push the Vuelling NEOs over to BA/IB/EI and progressively phase out the Airbuses short haul and move toward a 737MAX and A321NEO/LR mixed fleet for simplicity, but thats long-term. I have a feeling this is what IAG were thinking when they ordered all those MAXes - to harmonise the short haul fleet around the 73NG/MAX for Level, Vueling and Air Europa. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Long haul the group has a lot of Trent-powered 787 experience and will surely keep on the 787, alongside the Airbus WB fleets at EI/BA/IB. Might IAG look to acquire some 78Js for the amalgamated Level/Air Europa longer haul stuff? Yeah i could see that. Would be riduclously compelling on MAD/BCN to South America.
 
IWMBH
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:14 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
I'm just curious how dominant the new carrier would be relative to the other dominant European carriers. If the EU has allowed LH to dominate Germany and KL to dominate The Netherlands, it would seem difficult to prevent Iberia from being such a dominant player in Spain.


KL was already the dominant player in the Netherlands and it always has been. They did buy their competitor - Martinair - but that was a smaller airline and they already had a 50 % stake in the airline. Furthermore, the Netherlands is too small for 2 mayor carriers but Spain with 3 times the population of the Netherlands has a large enough market, hence that Air Europa and Iberia are both profitable.

The EC had nothing to do with the situation in Germany because LH became the biggest when the other players went bankrupt. This is different, Iberia will be the dominant player because it buys Air Europa. I think the EC will demand some concessions before it allows the purchase. I would be very surprised if they simply approve this take over.
 
runway23
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:18 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Seems like MOL prediction is coming true....all that is left after all these consolidation will be IAG, AF/KLM, Ryanair, Wizz and Easyjet. Everything else will be insignificant.


I can see Wizz being bought by one of the big 5.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:30 pm

IWMBH wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
I'm just curious how dominant the new carrier would be relative to the other dominant European carriers. If the EU has allowed LH to dominate Germany and KL to dominate The Netherlands, it would seem difficult to prevent Iberia from being such a dominant player in Spain.


KL was already the dominant player in the Netherlands and it always has been. They did buy their competitor - Martinair - but that was a smaller airline and they already had a 50 % stake in the airline. Furthermore, the Netherlands is too small for 2 mayor carriers but Spain with 3 times the population of the Netherlands has a large enough market, hence that Air Europa and Iberia are both profitable.

The EC had nothing to do with the situation in Germany because LH became the biggest when the other players went bankrupt. This is different, Iberia will be the dominant player because it buys Air Europa. I think the EC will demand some concessions before it allows the purchase. I would be very surprised if they simply approve this take over.

I’m no expert on Transavia, by any means, but it appears KLM bought 80% in 91 then the rest in 2003. Transavia was the biggest competitor to KLM in Amsterdam at the time. How is that situation different?
And comparing the Spanish economy to the Dutch economy as it relates to AMS and MAD is a bit simplistic. AMS is the only real international airport for the world’s 17th largest economy. MAD is one of two for the world’s 13th largest, to say nothing of the many many small Spanish airports connected to every major European hub.
Eurowings was a separate company from LH until 2001, admittedly not a large competitor.
LH was allowed to heavily cement its position in the region via Swiss, Austrian, and Brussels Air takeovers. Air Berlin could’ve been sold to another airline that wanted more access to the German market, Ryanair for example. The EU could’ve prevented the LH acquisition of Air Berlin allowing another carrier to get those assets. Just because Air Berlin was bankrupt doesn’t mean there wasn’t an anti competitive aspect to the LH acquisition of their assets.
They 100% have been able to eliminate competition via acquisition.
 
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zkojq
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:46 pm

Absolute madness. The competition authorities shouldn't allow the EU3 to become so much bigger through large takeovers like this. And even if they were to, having so much market consolidation at a single hub is madness - at least arrange it in a situation where a EU3 member is taking over an airline in a market that it isn't dominant in (eg LH Group taking over Air Europa, AFKL taking over Norwegian or Wizz and IAG taking over Condor).


vhtje wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Hmm, if that goes ahead one will hardly be able to stop LH from getting Condor. IAG would gain total dominance in Spain.


Hardly. Ever heard of EasyJet and Ryanair?


Neither of them flies domestically within Spain. Nor does Wizz. Looking at Easyjet's website, if I want to fly MAD to BCN I have to connect overnight via GVA.

VSMUT wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Strongly opposed to this. I hope the European Commission does its job and does not allow this to proceed. The Europe - Latin America market would be far too concentrated.


The Spanish domestic and Spanish to European markets will be severely affected as well. This is bad for the competition. The EU needs to set a stopper for this takeover.

:checkmark: It's blatantly uncompetitive and would make an absolute mockery of competition authorities if they allow it.

onwFan wrote:
As for competition, now both LA and Plus Ultra are competitors.

Plus Ultra are a very small fish in this particular pond. Hardly competition and IAG + UX could easily squash them at a moment's notice.


vhtje wrote:
You didn't mention long haul. You wrote "total dominance". I was countering that assertion: every time I visit a Spanish airport, all I see are aprons are dominated by orange and white Airbuses and cláirseaches/Celtic harps on 737s.

This website aggregates Spanish aeronautical statistics. On passenger numbers, Ryanair and easyJet easily dominate.

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?c=Pag ... tadisticas

...but none of them fly domestically within the Iberian peninsula, making that argument irrelevant. The fact is that if you want to fly better MAD and BCN you can choose either Iberia, Vueling or Air Europa. After a merger, IAG will have a monopoly on that market.


dfdubflyer wrote:
I’m sure marketing experts with far more experience than me can study this for IAG but AirEuropa seems like a quite neutral name for them to fold Vueling and Level ops into potentially. Some on this site believe the Vueling name is tarnished and Level was always a meaningless blank canvas of a brand.


Indeed Vueling's brand is toxic, but it's completely pointless to rebrand it to Air Europa if they're not going to fix Vueling's fundamental issues (a complete lack of OTP, reliability, and customer service). They never seemed to address those when creating LEVEL so one wouldn't have confidence that they will should they merge with Air Europa.

J343 wrote:
How is IAG owning the Spanish market different to the LH group dominating the Swiss and German market?


Well for starters, LH's monopoly of most of the DACH market came about due to their competitor, Aer Berlin, going bankrupt. Quite different from allowing two large competitors to merge.

And whilst I'm one of the biggest LH fanboys around, I don't think that it's ok to substantially reduce competition in the Spanish market just because the situation in DACH has gotten very bad competition wise (such a joke that Wizz, Lauda, Level and Austrian are fighting one another to the death on leisure routes yet it's impossible to fly between Vienna and MUC/FRA outside of the LH Group).
First to fly the 787-9
 
YIMBY
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:47 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Im sure IAG have scrutinized the regulatory rules before making the offer.


I am sure that you are right and I am afraid that EU will finally approve it, with some symbolic compromises. Anyway, it is bad for the consumers and I hope that it will not be accepted. If Air Europa were in any trouble, there might have other buyers.

Anyway, it is a good move for IAG and I agree with the previous posters that the brand itself has a huge value, Air Europa brand taking over Level, Vueling etc. so that IAG will go with three brands only, whatever internal structure they may have.
 
IWMBH
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:50 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
I'm just curious how dominant the new carrier would be relative to the other dominant European carriers. If the EU has allowed LH to dominate Germany and KL to dominate The Netherlands, it would seem difficult to prevent Iberia from being such a dominant player in Spain.


KL was already the dominant player in the Netherlands and it always has been. They did buy their competitor - Martinair - but that was a smaller airline and they already had a 50 % stake in the airline. Furthermore, the Netherlands is too small for 2 mayor carriers but Spain with 3 times the population of the Netherlands has a large enough market, hence that Air Europa and Iberia are both profitable.

The EC had nothing to do with the situation in Germany because LH became the biggest when the other players went bankrupt. This is different, Iberia will be the dominant player because it buys Air Europa. I think the EC will demand some concessions before it allows the purchase. I would be very surprised if they simply approve this take over.

I’m no expert on Transavia, by any means, but it appears KLM bought 80% in 91 then the rest in 2003. Transavia was the biggest competitor to KLM in Amsterdam at the time. How is that situation different?
Eurowings was a separate company from LH until 2001, admittedly not a large competitor.
LH was allowed to heavily cement its position in the region via Swiss, Austrian, and Brussels Air takeovers. Air Berlin could’ve been sold to another airline that wanted more access to the German market, Ryanair for example. The EU could’ve prevented the LH acquisition of Air Berlin allowing another carrier to get those assets. Just because Air Berlin was bankrupt doesn’t mean there wasn’t an anti competitive aspect to the LH acquisition of their assets.
They 100% have been able to eliminate competition via acquisition.


Transavia was a charter-airline when it was bought by KLM and was much smaller then it is now. KL later transformed the airline in a ULCC. Furthermore, KL bought the majority stake back in 1991, IAG bought Vuelling as recently as 2013 and this will be their second major takeover in the Spanish market within 10 years.

Do you've any sources that Ryanair had interest in AB? I know that Easyjet had some interest and they did buy some ex-AB planes, LH did so to but they where already leasing A320's from AB. LH/Eurowings where allowed to buy airlines in other European countries, but that is not the same as buying 2 airlines in the same country within 10 years in my opinion. Also, all the airlines your named are still operating, Air Europa will most-likely seized to exist.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 280
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:55 pm

IWMBH wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

KL was already the dominant player in the Netherlands and it always has been. They did buy their competitor - Martinair - but that was a smaller airline and they already had a 50 % stake in the airline. Furthermore, the Netherlands is too small for 2 mayor carriers but Spain with 3 times the population of the Netherlands has a large enough market, hence that Air Europa and Iberia are both profitable.

The EC had nothing to do with the situation in Germany because LH became the biggest when the other players went bankrupt. This is different, Iberia will be the dominant player because it buys Air Europa. I think the EC will demand some concessions before it allows the purchase. I would be very surprised if they simply approve this take over.

I’m no expert on Transavia, by any means, but it appears KLM bought 80% in 91 then the rest in 2003. Transavia was the biggest competitor to KLM in Amsterdam at the time. How is that situation different?
Eurowings was a separate company from LH until 2001, admittedly not a large competitor.
LH was allowed to heavily cement its position in the region via Swiss, Austrian, and Brussels Air takeovers. Air Berlin could’ve been sold to another airline that wanted more access to the German market, Ryanair for example. The EU could’ve prevented the LH acquisition of Air Berlin allowing another carrier to get those assets. Just because Air Berlin was bankrupt doesn’t mean there wasn’t an anti competitive aspect to the LH acquisition of their assets.
They 100% have been able to eliminate competition via acquisition.


Transavia was a charter-airline when it was bought by KLM and was much smaller then it is now. KL later transformed the airline in a ULCC. Furthermore, KL bought the majority stake back in 1991, IAG bought Vuelling as recently as 2013 and this will be their second major takeover in the Spanish market within 10 years.

Do you've any sources that Ryanair had interest in AB? I know that Easyjet had some interest and they did buy some ex-AB planes, LH did so to but they where already leasing A320's from AB. LH/Eurowings where allowed to buy airlines in other European countries, but that is not the same as buying 2 airlines in the same country within 10 years in my opinion. Also, all the airlines your named are still operating, Air Europa will most-likely seized to exist.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40949243

Rather public dispute from Ryanair about the anti competitive nature of the Air Berlin takeover by LH.

And cmon. Austrian, Swiss, and Brussels exist as marketing brands. All their profits go to LH Group.

Are you suggesting that if the UX marketing brand survived, there should be no anti competitive review?
 
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Revelation
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:59 pm

NYCVIE wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Madrid is not a capacity constrained market, unlike LHR, FRA, AMS etc. Anyone can set up an operation there quite easily, so it is hard to see what real competition concerns there are. I expect that much like BA acquiring BD and LH acquiring the majority of AB's assets, this will be approved.

Not really comparable situations since AB was bankrupt and on its way out and BD was similarly on its last legs. UX AFAIK is not at risk of imminent collapse.

From a competitive point of view they are identical. One player is leaving the market, allowing possible unfair market domination to be created.

In the case of BK, the impending loss of jobs causes the politicians to put their thumbs on the scale and tilt it towards the powerful airlines and away from the anti competitive authorities.

So the situations should be comparable, but in reality the BK scenario causes the politicians to sweep anti competitive fears under the rug and allows its local champions to benefit from squeezing rivals out and/or feasting on competitor's mistakes.

This case of a healthy company buying out a healthy company should be a case where anti competitive concerns are taken seriously, but it seems they will not be.
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raylee67
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:02 pm

Is this revenge for LATAM?

In any case, UX does fly to many secondary Latin American destinations that may not make sense for IB, such as San Pedro Sula, Cancun, Recife and Asuncion. This will be a great complement to IB's network in Latam. And IAG can use UX to further develop similar destinations.

The fleet composition is interesting though, since UX is going to be all-Boeing with 787 and 737, while IB is all-Airbus.
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IWMBH
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:06 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
I’m no expert on Transavia, by any means, but it appears KLM bought 80% in 91 then the rest in 2003. Transavia was the biggest competitor to KLM in Amsterdam at the time. How is that situation different?
Eurowings was a separate company from LH until 2001, admittedly not a large competitor.
LH was allowed to heavily cement its position in the region via Swiss, Austrian, and Brussels Air takeovers. Air Berlin could’ve been sold to another airline that wanted more access to the German market, Ryanair for example. The EU could’ve prevented the LH acquisition of Air Berlin allowing another carrier to get those assets. Just because Air Berlin was bankrupt doesn’t mean there wasn’t an anti competitive aspect to the LH acquisition of their assets.
They 100% have been able to eliminate competition via acquisition.


Transavia was a charter-airline when it was bought by KLM and was much smaller then it is now. KL later transformed the airline in a ULCC. Furthermore, KL bought the majority stake back in 1991, IAG bought Vuelling as recently as 2013 and this will be their second major takeover in the Spanish market within 10 years.

Do you've any sources that Ryanair had interest in AB? I know that Easyjet had some interest and they did buy some ex-AB planes, LH did so to but they where already leasing A320's from AB. LH/Eurowings where allowed to buy airlines in other European countries, but that is not the same as buying 2 airlines in the same country within 10 years in my opinion. Also, all the airlines your named are still operating, Air Europa will most-likely seized to exist.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40949243

Rather public dispute from Ryanair about the anti competitive nature of the Air Berlin takeover by LH.


Hmm this isn't really evidence that the German government actively worked against a possible Ryanair take-over.

I still think a second IAG take-over of a big Spanish airline within 8 years is really something we haven't seen in Europe for a long time. As mentioned before, I suspect that the EC will - at least - have certain demands.
 
Opus99
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:13 pm

The IAG capital markets day on Friday will be very interesting
 
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Revelation
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:17 pm

It's obvious now why WW was complimenting DL on its investment in LATAM: it gives him some implicit justification for grabbing Air Europa.

Sacrificing a pawn to move the bishop in for the attack, so it seems.
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
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JAMBOJET
Posts: 280
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:34 pm

IWMBH wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Transavia was a charter-airline when it was bought by KLM and was much smaller then it is now. KL later transformed the airline in a ULCC. Furthermore, KL bought the majority stake back in 1991, IAG bought Vuelling as recently as 2013 and this will be their second major takeover in the Spanish market within 10 years.

Do you've any sources that Ryanair had interest in AB? I know that Easyjet had some interest and they did buy some ex-AB planes, LH did so to but they where already leasing A320's from AB. LH/Eurowings where allowed to buy airlines in other European countries, but that is not the same as buying 2 airlines in the same country within 10 years in my opinion. Also, all the airlines your named are still operating, Air Europa will most-likely seized to exist.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40949243

Rather public dispute from Ryanair about the anti competitive nature of the Air Berlin takeover by LH.


Hmm this isn't really evidence that the German government actively worked against a possible Ryanair take-over.

I still think a second IAG take-over of a big Spanish airline within 8 years is really something we haven't seen in Europe for a long time. As mentioned before, I suspect that the EC will - at least - have certain demands.

No one suggested it was nor was that the question posed.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 280
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's obvious now why WW was complimenting DL on its investment in LATAM: it gives him some implicit justification for grabbing Air Europa.

Sacrificing a pawn to move the bishop in for the attack, so it seems.

It definitely makes you wonder how long the LA/IAG relationship has left...
 
Antarius
Posts: 2136
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:43 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Not exactly and not earth shattering either. LATAM is a massive player in the Latin America market and a global carrier. Air Europa is a fraction of LATAM's size and junior player in SkyTeam. The bigger issue here is the EU equivalent of antitrust. IAG will essentially own the Spanish market.


I struggle to understand your rationale. Spain to LatAm is a big market but so is France to Africa and Germany to Turkey, both of which are dominated by SkyTeam and Star Alliance respectively. Competition isn't about providing non stop choices but providing choices overall. There are plenty of choices between Spain and South America, including 28 weekly Avianca flights to Bogota. The market is free and anyone is welcome to enter.


I wasn't comparing LATAM to Air Europa in any terms other than LATAM leaving oneworld and Air Europa leaving Sky Team. The OP suggested these were similar events. They're not. Facts.


You're right. UX actually makes money.
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Aisak
Posts: 925
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:04 pm

Polot wrote:
Aisak wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
I've long said the 787 makes a lot of sense at IB especially for longer thin routes where they're using the 332 right now.
[...]
I'm curious if there will be a terminal shuffle and they'll move to T4.


787s make sense in a company that has 787s. It made no sense at IB to keep a small subfleet of 787 in an all-airbus fleet.

When all is said and done UX will have 26 787s (according to Wikipedia, I haven’t verified). That is not a small sub fleet- for perspective that is more than the number of A350s IB currently has on order (although I expect IB will eventually get more A350s), and larger than IB’s current A330 fleet.

That said I see it more likely that the 787s will be transferred to BA and Level (or whatever they end up naming they LCC after settling things with UX brand) rather than IB mainline.


Right now, 2019 YTE, UX has 8x788 6x789 and 20x738. And 11x195 + 7xAT7 (wetleased from SwiftAir) at Aeronova (AirEuropa Express) which falls inside the perimeter (all according to IAG's presentation)

IAG's future fleet included the 737 MAX for BA LGW and Vueling/LEVEL. I guess the plan can be moved forward with the 737NG waiting for the MAX.
For the 787, again.... IB has a quite sizeable fleet of Longhaul planes but they are Airbus with for configs: 346, 333, 332 and LVL332... Not sure about adding two more types from a whole different model.
Of course, that would be the situation at day 1, but over time IB can get more Airbus 330/340 and slowly replace UX 332/787 on those routes...
 
pabloeing
Posts: 594
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:06 pm

....I see the B777X in IB before of the B787........
 
bx737
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:12 pm

zkojq wrote:
Absolute madness. The competition authorities shouldn't allow the EU3 to become so much bigger through large takeovers like this. And even if they were to, having so much market consolidation at a single hub is madness - at least arrange it in a situation where a EU3 member is taking over an airline in a market that it isn't dominant in (eg LH Group taking over Air Europa, AFKL taking over Norwegian or Wizz and IAG taking over Condor).


vhtje wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Hmm, if that goes ahead one will hardly be able to stop LH from getting Condor. IAG would gain total dominance in Spain.


Hardly. Ever heard of EasyJet and Ryanair?


Neither of them flies domestically within Spain. Nor does Wizz. Looking at Easyjet's website, if I want to fly MAD to BCN I have to connect overnight via GVA.



This website aggregates Spanish aeronautical statistics. On passenger numbers, Ryanair and easyJet easily dominate.

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?c=Pag ... tadisticas

...but none of them fly domestically within the Iberian peninsula, making that argument irrelevant. The fact is that if you want to fly better MAD and BCN you can choose either Iberia, Vueling or Air Europa. After a merger, IAG will have a monopoly on that market.

[/quote]


A quick look at the Ryanair website shows that they have 9 domestic routes from Madrid, 11 from Barcelona, 10 from Palma among others, granted they currently don’t fly MAD-BCN, but Ryanair does fly domestically within the Iberian peninsula
 
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downtown273
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:00 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm

Oh great. Like the Iberia Group didn't already have enough airlines: Iberia, Iberia Express, Iberia Regional, Vueling, Level and now Air Europa and Air Europa Express.

Maybe they should focus on consolidating all their brands and airlines first.
 
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Aisak
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:20 pm

bx737 wrote:
A quick look at the Ryanair website shows that they have 9 domestic routes from Madrid, 11 from Barcelona, 10 from Palma among others, granted they currently don’t fly MAD-BCN, but Ryanair does fly domestically within the Iberian peninsula


And easyjet did it in the past with a base at MAD. Let’s not forget Norwegian who turned its plan of closing Tenerife and Las Palmas bases when Ryanair announced they were also leaving.

Volotea also does quite a few domestic routes within Spain, but they don’t touch MAD or BCN. They just opened the first route ex-BCN, so maybe they’ll have some more routes to grow...
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