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BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:20 am

lesfalls wrote:
Hope this means that there will be new competition in MAD. Could FR add new aircraft or V7 open a base at the airport?
MAD is Europe's 5th busiest airport and airfares will surely hike with the competition on many routes going down from 2 to 1 or 3 to 2.


Hello.
The acquisition of Air Europa will give the IAG group a strong position in Spain, and particularly in Madrid. To approve the acquisition, it is likely that EU regulators will require IAG / Iberia to release slots to enable potential competitors to enter the market. Anticipating this, IAG has offered slots at Madrid for Volotea.
Other than slots, there are few if any barriers to airlines that might want to enter the shorthaul markets currently served by Air Europa.
Ryanair, easyJet and Wizz have shown that they are willing to try new markets and that they are perfectly capable of competing profitably with other carriers. Where they have not been happy with the results, they have simply moved resources (aircraft, crews etc.) from one market to another. This flexibility means that for those carriers there is little risk in entering, or re-entering, Air Europa markets.

Economic theory says that if a company makes excess profits, competitors will enter the market. ‘Excess profit’ is "profit of a firm over and above what provides its owners with a normal (market equilibrium) return to capital."
According to the theoretical model of perfect competition, excess profits are unsustainable because they stimulate new supply, which forces down prices and eliminates the excess profit.
That is: if IAG does put up prices other airlines will see an opportunity to enter the market and to make a profit. If an airline believes it has a compelling ‘value for money’ offer, then it can be confident of being able to attract customers away from a dominant competitor.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:17 am

BealineV953 wrote:
Economic theory says that if a company makes excess profits, competitors will enter the market. ‘Excess profit’ is "profit of a firm over and above what provides its owners with a normal (market equilibrium) return to capital."
According to the theoretical model of perfect competition, excess profits are unsustainable because they stimulate new supply, which forces down prices and eliminates the excess profit.
That is: if IAG does put up prices other airlines will see an opportunity to enter the market and to make a profit. If an airline believes it has a compelling ‘value for money’ offer, then it can be confident of being able to attract customers away from a dominant competitor.


Thanks for the Econ 102 lesson. Did you get far enough in your studies to learn of incidents of market failure? You outline a very simplistic picture.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:26 am

There will be no lack of competition from Madrid if Air Europa (and Norwegian) disappear.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:14 am

According to Wiki, those are UX's destinations. If Air Europa dissappears (and even now with Norwegian gone), those destinations will be done by:

A Coruña - Iberia + AVE
Alicante - Iberia + AVE
Amsterdam - Iberia + KLM
Asturias - Iberia + AVE
Athens - Iberia + Aegean + Ryanair
Asunción - NONE
Barcelona - Iberia/Vueling + AVE
Bilbao - Iberia + AVE
Bogotá - Iberia + Avianca
Brussels - Iberia + Brussels + Ryanair
Buenos Aires–Ezeiza - Iberia + Aerolíneas
Cancún - Evelop + Wamos
Caracas - Iberia + Estelar + Plus Ultra
Casablanca - Iberia + RAM
Cordoba (AR) - NONE
Düsseldorf - Iberia
Fortaleza - NONE
Frankfurt - Iberia + Lufthansa + Ryanair
Fuerteventura - Iberia + Ryanair
Gran Canaria - Iberia + Ryanair
Guayaquil - Iberia + Plus Ultra
Havana - Iberia + Evelop + Cubana
Ibiza - Iberia/Vueling + Ryanair
Lanzarote - Iberia + Ryanair
Lima - Iberia + Plus Ultra + LATAM
Lisbon - Iberia + easyJet + TAP
London (LGW) - Iberia/BA + easyJet + Ryanair
Málaga - Iberia + AVE
Marrakesh - Iberia + Ryanair
Medellín–JMC - Iberia + Avianca
Miami - Iberia/AA
Milan (MXP) - Iberia + easyJet + Ryanair
Montevideo - Iberia
Munich - Iberia + Lufthansa
New York (JFK) - Iberia/AA + Delta + United
Palma de Mallorca - Iberia + Ryanair
Panama City–Tocumen - Iberia
Paris (ORY) - Iberia/Vueling + Air France + easyJet + Ryanair
Porto - Iberia + Ryanair
Punta Cana - Evelop + Wamos
Quito - Iberia + Plus Ultra
Recife - NONE
Rome (FCO) - Iberia + Alitalia + Ryanair
Salvador da Bahia - NONE
San Juan - Iberia
San Pedro Sula - NONE
Santa Cruz de la Sierra–Viru Viru - Boliviana
Santo Domingo–Las Americas - Iberia
São Paulo–Guarulhos - Iberia + LATAM
Seville - Iberia + AVE
Tel Aviv - Iberia + ElAl
Tenerife (TFN) - Iberia + Ryanair + Evelop
Tunis - NONE
Valencia - Iberia + AVE
Venice - Iberia
Vigo - Iberia + AVE
Zürich - Iberia + Swiss


I fail to see how this becomes an Iberia monopoly. And Wizz Air or Volotea could open a base in MAD now there is less competition.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:58 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Economic theory says that if a company makes excess profits, competitors will enter the market. ‘Excess profit’ is "profit of a firm over and above what provides its owners with a normal (market equilibrium) return to capital."
According to the theoretical model of perfect competition, excess profits are unsustainable because they stimulate new supply, which forces down prices and eliminates the excess profit.
That is: if IAG does put up prices other airlines will see an opportunity to enter the market and to make a profit. If an airline believes it has a compelling ‘value for money’ offer, then it can be confident of being able to attract customers away from a dominant competitor.


Thanks for the Econ 102 lesson. Did you get far enough in your studies to learn of incidents of market failure? You outline a very simplistic picture.


Just out of interest: why would the market fail? Plenty of earlier posts highlight the competitiveness of Madrid as a longhaul market - with or without UX. Surely prices (before Covid-19) from Europe to South America reflect a market that indeed works very well. And a small player like UX being taken over does not really change that.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Economic theory says that if a company makes excess profits, competitors will enter the market. According to the theoretical model of perfect competition, excess profits are unsustainable because they stimulate new supply, which forces down prices and eliminates the excess profit.
That is: if IAG does put up prices other airlines will see an opportunity to enter the market and to make a profit.
If an airline believes it has a compelling ‘value for money’ offer, then it can be confident of being able to attract customers away from a dominant competitor.


Thanks for the Econ 102 lesson. Did you get far enough in your studies to learn of incidents of market failure? You outline a very simplistic picture.


In what way do you believe that if IAG acquires Air Europa it represents market failure?

IAG released a presentation outlining the proposed acquisition of Air Europa. The presentation makes it clear that the priority for IAG is strengthening its position in the Europe-Latin America market. IAG aims to create an airline that is better able to compete between Europe and Latin America than two airlines that compete with each other. IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.

Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and Skyteam having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?

IAG are not interested in Air Europa for its Spanish domestic and European routes. Anticipating that EU Regulators will not be comfortable with the IAG share of the Spanish domestic and European markets, IAG has offered slots at Madrid for Volotea. Other airlines may chose to enter or re-enter the market. In a deregulated market, if an airline believes another is making excess profits, it can enter the market and compete which forces down prices. Thus market failure is avoided.

Over the years there have been many examples of airlines that have disappeared for whatever reason being replaced by others. Sometimes the replacement is successful, sometimes not. Whether an airline succeeds depends as much on how well run they are as the competition they face.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:06 pm

If this merger goes ahead, I could see the Dreamliners being shifted to British Airways, perhaps to accelerate retirement of the GE-powered B772(ER) frames---a number of them being over 100,000 hours by now. I see the B738s being retired and likely the Embraer fleet as well. IAG could phase out LEVEL and redirect some of the A330s to Iberia proper.

In any deal, I would expect some MAD slots to be divested, and short-haul operators would be all over them.
 
by738
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:39 pm

my personal wager will be that this merger will never see the light of day. Would be surprised if AE exists in its current form with or without IAG.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 5230
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:04 am

Air Europa looking for a EUR 400 million tax payer bailout

https://www.preferente.com/noticias-de- ... 03555.html

Reports there is not enough money to pay October salaries without outside funds.

https://www.reportur.com/aerolineas/202 ... o-nominas/
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:35 am

I thought MAD slots were not all that valuable because there's a fair amount of capacity.

Anyway, I do see the 787s going to IB as they are getting increasingly common and IB makes a ton of money from their MRO, so it would be nice to be able to service other airlines as well. On top of that they seem to be getting rid of some 330-300s and the 787 is the perfect aircraft for some of the deep S. American or E. Asian routes.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4326
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:14 am

Air Europa has to be the worst run major airline in Europe. I really do not understand what they are trying to do half the time.

Saludos,
Alex
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4326
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:14 am

LupineChemist wrote:
I thought MAD slots were not all that valuable because there's a fair amount of capacity.

Anyway, I do see the 787s going to IB as they are getting increasingly common and IB makes a ton of money from their MRO, so it would be nice to be able to service other airlines as well. On top of that they seem to be getting rid of some 330-300s and the 787 is the perfect aircraft for some of the deep S. American or E. Asian routes.


= Ya. MAD slots are easy to get mostly outside some peak hours.

Saludos,
Alex
 
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julianrv
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:35 am

LupineChemist wrote:
I thought MAD slots were not all that valuable because there's a fair amount of capacity.


At certain times of the day it was already at max declared capacity so wasn't possible to get slots, in any case AENA decided to keep the declared capacity under the maximum theoretical capacity just to try to spread the operations throughout the day so eventually they should be able to make slots available if this becomes a problem.

LupineChemist wrote:
Anyway, I do see the 787s going to IB as they are getting increasingly common and IB makes a ton of money from their MRO, so it would be nice to be able to service other airlines as well. On top of that they seem to be getting rid of some 330-300s and the 787 is the perfect aircraft for some of the deep S. American or E. Asian routes.


While internally some always have seen Iberia MRO as some sort of crown jewel, probably because it always been profitable while the airline business used to bleed money, lately has been doing less and less 3rd party work and focusing on IAG fleets so don't think they see this as a opportunity to take more external work by increasing their capabilities.

Also we don't really know the fine print of the acquisition contract but Palma based Globalia Maintenance, Air Europa parent company MRO arm, isn't part of the transaction so I wouldn't be surprised that there's an agreement to keep 787/737 maintenance with them as they don't perform any significant amount of 3rd party maintenance so without the Air Europa workload they'd have to shut down.
 
jfk777
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:41 pm

If IAG's reason for buying Air Europa is the fleet of 787 Dreamliners wouldn't be cheaper to just buy them directly from Boeing ?
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:08 pm

jfk777 wrote:
If IAG's reason for buying Air Europa is the fleet of 787 Dreamliners wouldn't be cheaper to just buy them directly from Boeing ?


Says who?

The main reason for buying Air Europa is getting rid of their major competitor AND preventing Air France/KLM from buying it, which would be a disaster in IAG's eyes.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:00 am

BealineV953 wrote:
IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.

Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and Skyteam having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?


LATAM mentioned in their press release at the time of announcing the partnership with DL that they were leaving OneWorld, but had no plans to join SkyTeam. If IAG is lumping them in with AF/KL, that's completely disingenuous.
 
onwFan
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:25 am

FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.

Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and Skyteam having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?


LATAM mentioned in their press release at the time of announcing the partnership with DL that they were leaving OneWorld, but had no plans to join SkyTeam. If IAG is lumping them in with AF/KL, that's completely disingenuous.

They don’t even need to lump them in a ‘SkyTeam’ context. Willie Walsh already said that in view of LATAM’s plan to leave oneworld and pursue the DL partnership, IAG will need to reconsider their partnership with LATAM, and promptly followed it up with the abandonment of the JV plans. The whole ‘we will partner with all oneworld carriers except AA’ tale is just a temporary fix by LA to not lose partners/customers overnight, and make it gradual... If UX is absorbed into IAG, it is basically a given that AF/KL pursues a JV with LATAM, given the DL partnership. It is obvious that all parties are waiting for clarity on UX & LATAM’s situation before charting out the new plans...

Give it another 2 years (or given covid, even quicker), a brand new chess game will unfold involving AV, Azul, G3 and AR with Star & oneworld.
 
FSDan
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:37 am

onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.

Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and Skyteam having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?


LATAM mentioned in their press release at the time of announcing the partnership with DL that they were leaving OneWorld, but had no plans to join SkyTeam. If IAG is lumping them in with AF/KL, that's completely disingenuous.

They don’t even need to lump them in a ‘SkyTeam’ context. Willie Walsh already said that in view of LATAM’s plan to leave oneworld and pursue the DL partnership, IAG will need to reconsider their partnership with LATAM, and promptly followed it up with the abandonment of the JV plans. The whole ‘we will partner with all oneworld carriers except AA’ tale is just a temporary fix by LA to not lose partners/customers overnight, and make it gradual... If UX is absorbed into IAG, it is basically a given that AF/KL pursues a JV with LATAM, given the DL partnership. It is obvious that all parties are waiting for clarity on UX & LATAM’s situation before charting out the new plans...


That doesn't make it any less incorrect to be claiming LATAM as "SkyTeam" for the purposes of review of the current competitive landscape.
 
onwFan
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:43 am

FSDan wrote:
onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:

LATAM mentioned in their press release at the time of announcing the partnership with DL that they were leaving OneWorld, but had no plans to join SkyTeam. If IAG is lumping them in with AF/KL, that's completely disingenuous.

They don’t even need to lump them in a ‘SkyTeam’ context. Willie Walsh already said that in view of LATAM’s plan to leave oneworld and pursue the DL partnership, IAG will need to reconsider their partnership with LATAM, and promptly followed it up with the abandonment of the JV plans. The whole ‘we will partner with all oneworld carriers except AA’ tale is just a temporary fix by LA to not lose partners/customers overnight, and make it gradual... If UX is absorbed into IAG, it is basically a given that AF/KL pursues a JV with LATAM, given the DL partnership. It is obvious that all parties are waiting for clarity on UX & LATAM’s situation before charting out the new plans...


That doesn't make it any less incorrect to be claiming LATAM as "SkyTeam" for the purposes of review of the current competitive landscape.

It is probably as correct as referring to the DL/AF/KL/VS JV as the new SkyTeam TATL JV.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:47 am

jfk777 wrote:
If IAG's reason for buying Air Europa is the fleet of 787 Dreamliners wouldn't be cheaper to just buy them directly from Boeing ?


I can't think of a single airline merger/take-over in Europe that happened because the acquiring airline wanted to get their hands in some second hand air frames? That is the stuff of A-netters' fantasies.
 
FSDan
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:20 pm

onwFan wrote:
FSDan wrote:
onwFan wrote:
They don’t even need to lump them in a ‘SkyTeam’ context. Willie Walsh already said that in view of LATAM’s plan to leave oneworld and pursue the DL partnership, IAG will need to reconsider their partnership with LATAM, and promptly followed it up with the abandonment of the JV plans. The whole ‘we will partner with all oneworld carriers except AA’ tale is just a temporary fix by LA to not lose partners/customers overnight, and make it gradual... If UX is absorbed into IAG, it is basically a given that AF/KL pursues a JV with LATAM, given the DL partnership. It is obvious that all parties are waiting for clarity on UX & LATAM’s situation before charting out the new plans...


That doesn't make it any less incorrect to be claiming LATAM as "SkyTeam" for the purposes of review of the current competitive landscape.

It is probably as correct as referring to the DL/AF/KL/VS JV as the new SkyTeam TATL JV.


At least those airlines are actually all in a JV together, unlike LA + AF/KL... But I agree it's not technically correct to call that a SkyTeam JV either.
 
himarhernandez
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:03 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:29 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
Air Europa has to be the worst run major airline in Europe. I really do not understand what they are trying to do half the time.

Saludos,
Alex



I never understood them either. I have traveled between USA and Spain every year multiple times for 30 years in all different classes of service and I was never able to find a good deal with UX. I always wanted to try them in any of their classes. Since UX website was not helpful, I always tried looking through their partner UA but that never gave me good results either.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:26 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
If IAG's reason for buying Air Europa is the fleet of 787 Dreamliners wouldn't be cheaper to just buy them directly from Boeing ?


The main reason for buying Air Europa is getting rid of their major competitor AND preventing Air France/KLM from buying it, which would be a disaster in IAG's eyes.


Airlines do not buy other airlines in an attempt to eliminate competition. Successful airlines learn to compete.

IAG summarised their reasons for acquiring Air Europa. You can find a presentation here:

https://www.iairgroup.com/~/media/Files ... tation.pdf

The priority for IAG is strengthening its position in the Europe-Latin America market, aiming to create an airline group that is better able to compete in that market. In a number of countries, one strong airline has been seen to be better able to compete in the global market than two airlines that compete with each other. IAG has little or no interest in Air Europa’s Spanish domestic and European routes.

History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.

The acquisition is similar to the BA merger with BCal. BA merged with BCal to strengthen its longhaul network. BA did not merge with BCal hoping to eliminate competition on shorthaul routes.

BA, after merging with BCal, continued to face competition on shorthaul routes from Gatwick.
Air Europe had, before BCal merged with BA, operated a few scheduled services from Gatwick. To fill the void left by BCal, Air Europe greatly expanded its scheduled operations. Air Europe didn’t have a good business model, and failed.
Dan Air then greatly expanded its scheduled services, picking up where Air Europe left off. Dan Air didn’t bring anything new to the market and failed. It was acquired by BA.
easyJet began services from Gatwick. easyJet, unlike Air Europe and Dan Air, had a robust and, for the UK, innovative business model. easyJet grew, has been highly successful and is now the largest carrier at Gatwick.
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


You are much too sanguine. The industry is imploding as we watch. One doesn't let a concentrated industry concentrate further add offer the platitude, 'Oh, new competition will come along.'
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


You are much too sanguine. The industry is imploding as we watch. One doesn't let a concentrated industry concentrate further add offer the platitude, 'Oh, new competition will come along.'


There are not enough passengers to sustain current capacity, so an implosive effect is difficult to avoid. On the other side of this thing (COVID-19, "pandession", "the great lockdown recession", whatever you call it) there will be masses of unemployed airline executives and employees looking for work, bunch of gates sitting empty, and leasing companies, owning plethora of airplanes, looking for an airline to pick them up. I would not be surprised, if situation becomes desperate, some leasing companies might underwrite airline capital (full ownership, or a stake) in order to ensure that there are airlines to lease to.

Buying an airline, at this time, based on pre-COVID business plans (and at pre-COVID prices), sounds like money wasted to me. But what do I know, IAG has this billion to pay for Air Europa, and I don't. It's their call.
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:30 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Airlines do not buy other airlines in an attempt to eliminate competition.


Of course not. Consolidation of american airlines had nothing to do with this. It was done for altruistic reasons. Particularly AIR TRAN´s and VIRGIN AMERICA´s purchase.

BealineV953 wrote:
Successful airlines learn to compete.

And they are even more succesful with less competition.

BealineV953 wrote:
IAG summarised their reasons for acquiring Air Europa. You can find a presentation here:


Do you take face value everything they tell you?


BealineV953 wrote:
The priority for IAG is strengthening its position in the Europe-Latin America market, aiming to create an airline group that is better able to compete in that market. In a number of countries, one strong airline has been seen to be better able to compete in the global market than two airlines that compete with each other.


This is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


It will take years, if not decades, for another airline to reach the point where Air Europa is now. Some airlines will step in in some routes but it is unlikely that an airline will develop a strong hub in Madrid. IAG is buying peace of mind for years.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


You are much too sanguine. The industry is imploding as we watch. One doesn't let a concentrated industry concentrate further add offer the platitude, 'Oh, new competition will come along.'


IB could buy 10 used A330-200's and add the routes to Latin America that UX flies that they don't and it would cost alot less than purchasing UX. This has always been about eliminating competition.
 
onwFan
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:43 pm

I think the main reason for IAG buying UX was the impending threat of AF/KL/UX JV getting approved when IAG/LA’s wasn’t. That would make IAG less than half their size in the Europe to Latam traffic. On top of that, DL will be forcing LA to partner with AF/KL anytime (and they have done that with pretty much all their investments). So, bringing in UX was a very natural direction - they just acted quickly enough... In either case, with the way Europe-Latin America traffic is right now, there is no question of two hub carriers at MAD.
 
tobsw
Posts: 196
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Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:28 am

IB needed to buy Air Europa, to get rid of their biggest competitor. It was getting TOO big for IB to stay happy in the status quo. So IB was getting a bit uncomfortable with that. Unlike what happens in London with BA and VS: they are happy with that status quo.

The main reason, IB doesn't know how to compete: IAG request very high operational margins. UX were no way near those, so they could operate routes and destinations IB could only dream of. And of course, compete.

There was a time when IB run 2x daily flights to TLV (mixture of long and short haul planes). Boom, UX entered the market... and IB - because they can't compete - had to go back to 1 daily flight (long haul plane). And this is just an example.

If I'm honest; we have to be impressed with UX performance in the last decade. If you look at 2011 IAG presentation they didn't mention UX as a competitor for SouthAmerica. Boom: 2018 and 2019, there was UX as a competitor showing in presentations - and things started to get hysteric at IB when UX and AF-KLM agreed to launch a JV to SouthAmerica. UX has grown a lot in the last 10 years. They almost triplicated their passenger numbers... while IB Group just managed in 2019 to have the same amount of passengers they had in 2009. Remember, the 2009-2012 were very bad years in IB: nothing was really going on - they were just discussing the gender of angels. Only when Gallego arrived, he managed a whole successful reorganisation. UX in the meantime, was growing crazily.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:56 pm

FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.

Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and Skyteam having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?


LATAM mentioned in their press release at the time of announcing the partnership with DL that they were leaving OneWorld, but had no plans to join SkyTeam. If IAG is lumping them in with AF/KL, that's completely disingenuous.


To be fair to IAG, they did not say that LATAM would join Skyteam, I did. I’m happy to change what I said to:
“IAG state that if the deal is approved its share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26%. IAG gives the AF/KL share as 19% and the Latam share as 8%.
Are you saying that IAG having a 26% share and AF/KL plus Latam (likely to join Skyteam) having a 27% share of the Europe-Latin America market will represent ‘market failure’?”

Latam will be very keen to get back into an alliance. Through membership of oneworld, Latam frequent flyers have enjoyed the benefits of reciprocal mileage earn and burn, lounge access, priority check-in, priority waitlist clearance and more. Latam will not want to leave their customers without those benefits for long. I think that it is safe to assume that Latam will seek membership of Skyteam. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that suggesting that Latam will not join Skyteam is disingenuous.

Having spent $1.9bn for 20% of Latam, Delta will after focusing on the North America-Latin America market, probably work with Latam to see how the two can work together in the Europe-Latin America market. In time this will likely include wanting to co-ordinate with AF/KL.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:53 pm

onwFan wrote:
I think the main reason for IAG buying UX was the impending threat of AF/KL/UX JV getting approved when IAG/LA’s wasn’t. That would make IAG less than half their size in the Europe to Latam traffic. On top of that, DL will be forcing LA to partner with AF/KL anytime (and they have done that with pretty much all their investments).
So, bringing in UX was a very natural direction - they just acted quickly enough...
In either case, with the way Europe-Latin America traffic is right now, there is no question of two hub carriers at MAD.


Hello.
You are absolutely correct. Delta buying Latam, taking that carrier out of oneworld and the prospect of Latam joining Skyteam called for a realignment of the market.
As you say, IAG bringing in Air Europa was a natural move.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:19 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


You are much too sanguine. The industry is imploding as we watch. One doesn't let a concentrated industry concentrate further add offer the platitude, 'Oh, new competition will come along.'


This has always been about eliminating competition.


Mergers and acquisitions do not eliminate competition.
An airline that thinks it can eliminate competition by buying competitor is not worthy of investment. Investment and airline analysts would be unimpressed by IAG proposing to spend large amounts of money in the vain hope of eliminating competition.
The IAG (Iberia) acquisition of Air Europa follows on from the BA / BCal merger, the Air France purchase of UTA and the Air Canada purchase of Canadian. In each case, the clear objective was the creation of a global airline better placed to compete with other large airlines, and in more recent years alliances and joint ventures.
When BA merged with BCal, it did not eliminate competition. BCal was effectively replaced on most routes by the growth of Virgin, Air Europe, Dan Air, easyJet and other UK carriers.
When Air Canada acquired Canadian it did not eliminate competition. Canadian was effectively replaced on most routes by Westjet, Jetsgo, Air Transat and others.
...and that says nothing of the multitude of competitors from other countries.
For Air Europa, on shorthaul routes Volotea, easyJet, Wizz, Ryanair, Transavia and others will pick up where Air Europe left off. On longhaul routes, as part of Iberia, Air Europa will be better able to compete with Latam and other carriers.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:19 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that suggesting that Latam will not join Skyteam is disingenuous.


Hardly. I'm taking the word straight from the horse's mouth.
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:24 pm

Any update on IAG purchasing UX? I've scrolled up and don't see any recent updates, just discussions on various different things.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:38 am

jmmadrid wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Airlines do not buy other airlines in an attempt to eliminate competition.


Of course not. Consolidation of american airlines had nothing to do with this. It was done for altruistic reasons. Particularly AIR TRAN´s and VIRGIN AMERICA´s purchase.

BealineV953 wrote:
Successful airlines learn to compete.

And they are even more succesful with less competition.

BealineV953 wrote:
IAG summarised their reasons for acquiring Air Europa. You can find a presentation here:


Do you take face value everything they tell you?


BealineV953 wrote:
The priority for IAG is strengthening its position in the Europe-Latin America market, aiming to create an airline group that is better able to compete in that market. In a number of countries, one strong airline has been seen to be better able to compete in the global market than two airlines that compete with each other.


This is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


It will take years, if not decades, for another airline to reach the point where Air Europa is now. Some airlines will step in in some routes but it is unlikely that an airline will develop a strong hub in Madrid. IAG is buying peace of mind for years.


The market in Europe and the market in the US are different environments. In particular, in Europe for a number of reasons national boundaries limit consolidation. This structural difference makes it difficult to directly compare the markets in Europe and the US.
In this thread a debate around competition in the US domestic market would take us off topic.

“Eliminated” implies no competition, and you say “less” competition.
What do you mean by “more successful”?
What examples are you thinking of? Which airlines in Europe have acquired another airline, enjoyed the benefit of no or less competition, and then been “more successful” over a sustained period?
What evidence do you have for your claim?

IAG shares are traded on the London Stock Exchange and the ‘Spanish Stock Exchanges’ (the stock exchanges of Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbao and Valencia). Therefore, IAG is obliged to follow strict protocols around what it says about financial performance and its investment plans.
The IAG share price and its ability to raise money will be affected by what it says.
IAG presented its proposed acquisition of Air Europa as a strategic investment with the aim of strengthening the group’s position in the Europe-Latin America market.
Airline and investment analysts will be looking very closely at IAG’s proposed acquisition. If analysts are not comfortable with what IAG says, they will not hesitate to say so.
Knowing that IAG is obliged to follow strict protocols around what it says about its investment plans, I do accept what IAG says at face value.
I do believe that IAG’s objective is to strengthen its position in the Europe-Latin America market.
I do not for one moment believe that IAG thinks that by acquiring Air Europa they will eliminate or significantly reduce competition.

The IAG (Iberia) acquisition of Air Europa is similar to the BA / BCal merger and the Air France purchase of UTA. In both these cases the objective was to create an airline with a global network that was better placed to compete with other large carriers.
BA merged with BCal to extend the network. That merger did not eliminate or reduce competition. On a number of the former BCal longhaul routes BA faced competition from Virgin and others. On the former BCal shorthaul routes BA quickly faced competition from Air Europe, then Dan Air, then easyJet and a number of others.

I have not suggested that we will see another airline reach the point where Air Europa is now. That will not happen. As others have said, the Spanish longhaul market is not large enough to support two carriers that compete with other airlines as well as competing with each other.
Rather, on shorthaul routes a number of different airlines will quickly replace Air Europa. This may be Volotea, easyJet, Ryanair or others basing aircraft in Spain and operating a number of former Air Europa routes, or may be airlines like Transavia, Eurowings, Aegean or others operating one or two routes from their bases.
On longhaul routes to and from Spain the combination of Iberia and Air Europa will continue to face competition from Delta, United, Latam, Avianca, Evelop and others (see post 354).
For passengers making journeys originating outside Spain, Iberia and Air Europa will continue to face competition from Skyteam, Latam (until they join Skyteam), the Star alliance and other airlines based in the Americans and Europe.

The acquisition is good for Air Europa customers, good for Air Europa employees, good for Globalia, good for Iberia and good for IAG.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:53 am

FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that suggesting that Latam will not join Skyteam is disingenuous.


Hardly. I'm taking the word straight from the horse's mouth.


Straight from the horse's mouth, what Latam say is: "LATAM does not plan to join another global alliance at this time."

See: https://www.latam.com/en_us/about-us/la ... -alliance/
 
talonone
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 10:32 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
History shows that where an airline buys a competitor, competition is not eliminated; new competition will soon come along.


You are much too sanguine. The industry is imploding as we watch. One doesn't let a concentrated industry concentrate further add offer the platitude, 'Oh, new competition will come along.'


There are not enough passengers to sustain current capacity, so an implosive effect is difficult to avoid. On the other side of this thing (COVID-19, "pandession", "the great lockdown recession", whatever you call it) there will be masses of unemployed airline executives and employees looking for work, bunch of gates sitting empty, and leasing companies, owning plethora of airplanes, looking for an airline to pick them up. I would not be surprised, if situation becomes desperate, some leasing companies might underwrite airline capital (full ownership, or a stake) in order to ensure that there are airlines to lease to.

Buying an airline, at this time, based on pre-COVID business plans (and at pre-COVID prices), sounds like money wasted to me. But what do I know, IAG has this billion to pay for Air Europa, and I don't. It's their call.


IAG money!¿? Maybe you wanted to say Iberia money! ;)
 
FSDan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:38 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that suggesting that Latam will not join Skyteam is disingenuous.


Hardly. I'm taking the word straight from the horse's mouth.


Straight from the horse's mouth, what Latam say is: "LATAM does not plan to join another global alliance at this time."

See: https://www.latam.com/en_us/about-us/la ... -alliance/


Exactly. Based on LATAM's statement, it is not disingenuous to suggest that LATAM will not join SkyTeam in the future. They could change their mind about alliances and join, but nothing they have said up to this point would indicate that they plan on doing that.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4325
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:48 pm

FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Hardly. I'm taking the word straight from the horse's mouth.


Straight from the horse's mouth, what Latam say is: "LATAM does not plan to join another global alliance at this time."

See: https://www.latam.com/en_us/about-us/la ... -alliance/


Exactly. Based on LATAM's statement, it is not disingenuous to suggest that LATAM will not join SkyTeam in the future. They could change their mind about alliances and join, but nothing they have said up to this point would indicate that they plan on doing that.


Don't forget their sugar daddy Delta has already said that SkyTeam is worthless so they wont be pressured to join ST.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9997
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:55 pm

Daddy Delta will be reviewing alliance strategies after being forced to write off maybe $3 Billion in equity investments in partner carriers. It's quite the comeuppance, really.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:52 am

usflyer msp wrote:
FSDan wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Straight from the horse's mouth, what Latam say is: "LATAM does not plan to join another global alliance at this time."

See: https://www.latam.com/en_us/about-us/la ... -alliance/


Exactly. Based on LATAM's statement, it is not disingenuous to suggest that LATAM will not join SkyTeam in the future. They could change their mind about alliances and join, but nothing they have said up to this point would indicate that they plan on doing that.


Don't forget their sugar daddy Delta has already said that SkyTeam is worthless so they wont be pressured to join ST.


“At this time” is a highly significant part of LATAM’s “…does not plan to join another global alliance at this time” statement.

As a number of airlines have found to their cost, anything less than 51% ownership of another airline does not give you control. Delta’s 20% share of Latam does not give Delta control of Latam.

I don’t know what Delta has said about SkyTeam being “worthless”, but this isn’t about what Delta say, it is about what Latam’s high value customers need and want. Latam appear to be keenly aware of the need to maintain benefits for their frequent flyers. On their website they say:

“…Delta and LATAM …have achieved a number of milestones with customer benefits including: mutual frequent flyer mile accumulation/redemption; reciprocal elite benefits; …shared terminals at hub airports; as well as mutual access to 35 Delta Sky Club lounges in the United States and five LATAM VIP lounges in South America.”
…and…
“We have decided to finalize our exit from the oneworld alliance earlier, starting May 1st, 2020.
We know how important it is for you to maintain your benefits and the level of your experience. For this reason we are working so that, after the departure of oneworld, agreements with most airlines (British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberia, Japan Airlines, Malaysia Airlines, Qantas, Qatar Airways, Royal Jordanian, S7Airlines and SriLankan Airlines) are maintained.
These benefits are:
• Access to their destination network
• VIP Lounge access
• Agreements for earning and redeeming points
• Recognition of elite members and delivery of associated benefits”

Their words, not mine.

I read this as Latam having to leave oneworld in a hurry to end their Frequent Flyer partnership with American in the Americas and being left with a serious problem in Europe and elsewhere. Latam hoping to maintain a Frequent Flyer relationship with BA, Iberia and other oneworld carriers smacks of desperation.
It will be up to BA, Iberia and the rest to determine if a bilateral agreement with Latam is worth having. BA, Iberia and the others may decide that as Latam is likely to join Skyteam, maintaining a relationship with them makes no sense and that what is likely to be a stop gap agreement is simply not worth the effort.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:36 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Latam appear to be keenly aware of the need to maintain benefits for their frequent flyers. On their website they say:

“…Delta and LATAM …have achieved a number of milestones with customer benefits including: mutual frequent flyer mile accumulation/redemption; reciprocal elite benefits; …shared terminals at hub airports; as well as mutual access to 35 Delta Sky Club lounges in the United States and five LATAM VIP lounges in South America.”
…and…
“We have decided to finalize our exit from the oneworld alliance earlier, starting May 1st, 2020.
We know how important it is for you to maintain your benefits and the level of your experience. For this reason we are working so that, after the departure of oneworld, agreements with most airlines (British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberia, Japan Airlines, Malaysia Airlines, Qantas, Qatar Airways, Royal Jordanian, S7Airlines and SriLankan Airlines) are maintained.
These benefits are:
• Access to their destination network
• VIP Lounge access
• Agreements for earning and redeeming points
• Recognition of elite members and delivery of associated benefits”

Their words, not mine.

I read this as Latam having to leave oneworld in a hurry to end their Frequent Flyer partnership with American in the Americas and being left with a serious problem in Europe and elsewhere. Latam hoping to maintain a Frequent Flyer relationship with BA, Iberia and other oneworld carriers smacks of desperation.
It will be up to BA, Iberia and the rest to determine if a bilateral agreement with Latam is worth having. BA, Iberia and the others may decide that as Latam is likely to join Skyteam, maintaining a relationship with them makes no sense and that what is likely to be a stop gap agreement is simply not worth the effort.


At the end of the day, if the LATAM partnership is beneficial to BA/IB in terms of flow passengers, loyalty, etc. they're not going to terminate those partnerships on the chance that LATAM could decide to join SkyTeam someday in the future. You can find examples of airlines having out-of-alliance partnerships all over the world. If LATAM does change their mind and decide to join SkyTeam, or if they forge a partnership with AF/KL outside an alliance, then that's a pretty good reason for BA/IB to drop the partnership.
 
Corpsnerd09
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:05 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:18 pm

This thread has gone off the rails off topic. We're discussing LA FF agreements with BA/IB now... What's that have to do with UX exactly? Isn't this thread about UX? ...and DL yet again. Why does every other thread on this forum have to end up being about DL?
 
quic330
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:49 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:10 pm

Getting the thread back to it's original topic, the press in Spain is starting to say that IB could take over UX for only €1, as UX debts are piling up.

One fragment of the article translated:

"Iberia faces a scenario in which it could stay with its rival Air Europa without having to pay its owners or simply pay a symbolic price of one euro. The Globalia airline is going to have to get into debt of more than 600 million euros, and may have to increase this amount in a few months, so that the IAG airline, which a year ago agreed to acquire it for 1,000 million euros, would only have to assume the debt to match that valuation."

Source (in Spanish): https://www.preferente.com/noticias-de- ... 04475.html
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3104
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:22 pm

quic330 wrote:
Getting the thread back to it's original topic, the press in Spain is starting to say that IB could take over UX for only €1, as UX debts are piling up.


Why bother? If UX will collapse under its own weight in any case and there is a massive global over-supply of airline capacity for the foreseeable future, why not let nature take its course and take take the attractive/viable UX markets with the A330, 340s and 350s that are looking for something to do. not to mention the former LEVEL A332s, also in need of work.
 
guillermohs
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:18 pm

Spanish government approves a 475 million aid for Air Europa.

Only in spanish: https://www.elmundo.es/economia/empresa ... b45ea.html
 
SlashingAx
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:39 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:30 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
quic330 wrote:
Getting the thread back to it's original topic, the press in Spain is starting to say that IB could take over UX for only €1, as UX debts are piling up.


Why bother? If UX will collapse under its own weight in any case and there is a massive global over-supply of airline capacity for the foreseeable future, why not let nature take its course and take take the attractive/viable UX markets with the A330, 340s and 350s that are looking for something to do. not to mention the former LEVEL A332s, also in need of work.


State aid, like Air Europa just got, will delay the collapse. If IAG backs out, someone else could swoop in and make a deal with UX - and if it's someone with deep pockets, then in the long term it could be painful for IB.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:04 pm

Media are now reporting IAG is buying Air Europa for between €300 and €400 million to be paid in IAG shares:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam ... e400m/amp/
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3104
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:47 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
Media are now reporting IAG is buying Air Europa for between €300 and €400 million to be paid in IAG shares:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam ... e400m/amp/

Interesting. IAG must be fairly confident that the Spanish Government will not allow Air Europa to collapse and they must see some value in 26 787s and ~20 737s, along with MAX orders. Clearly the strategic value will be stronger than ever and the ability to control supply to the market will be attractive too.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:32 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
Media are now reporting IAG is buying Air Europa for between €300 and €400 million to be paid in IAG shares:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cityam ... e400m/amp/

Interesting. IAG must be fairly confident that the Spanish Government will not allow Air Europa to collapse and they must see some value in 26 787s and ~20 737s, along with MAX orders. Clearly the strategic value will be stronger than ever and the ability to control supply to the market will be attractive too.


It's probable less about the fleet. Boeing will bend over backwards to adjust/change any order to suit its customers.
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