Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:13 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
max999 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Having long term monopoly pricing power in Spain is also kind of appealing to IAG... :-)


TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic here.... So IAG will own Iberia , Iberia Express, Vueling , Air Europa, Level, and codeshare with Air Nostrom...?
Who’s left in Spain without IAG influence...?


Giving IAG monopoly power in Spain is wrong. The reasons for rejecting this deal have not changed regardless of the pandemic. The regulators should not allow this to happen.


The issue is that the "regulator" is the EU and they look at Spain as a piece of a common/open an larger EU market. Legally, every EU based carrier could open bases and operate from/to/within Spain unrestricted.


The reality is that most countries in Europe can not support two long haul airlines. They tend to have one heavyweight and maybe a few very small niche players. Competition from the other end of long haul routes is fierce. Is it not better to have one strong home airline than two that scrape by? There is plenty of indirect competitions well...
 
ewt340
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:18 am

British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1273
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:31 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic here.... So IAG will own Iberia , Iberia Express, Vueling , Air Europa, Level, and codeshare with Air Nostrom...?
Who’s left in Spain without IAG influence...?


Volotea was offered slots to offset the deal
 
max999
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:34 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
max999 wrote:



Giving IAG monopoly power in Spain is wrong. The reasons for rejecting this deal have not changed regardless of the pandemic. The regulators should not allow this to happen.


The issue is that the "regulator" is the EU and they look at Spain as a piece of a common/open an larger EU market. Legally, every EU based carrier could open bases and operate from/to/within Spain unrestricted.


The reality is that most countries in Europe can not support two long haul airlines. They tend to have one heavyweight and maybe a few very small niche players. Competition from the other end of long haul routes is fierce. Is it not better to have one strong home airline than two that scrape by? There is plenty of indirect competitions well...


Even in a country as big as the US, the US regulators will review market competition on a city-by-city basis for airline mergers and acquisition. Just because there are many airlines throughout the US, doesn't mean it's OK for a particular state or city to suffer from a monopoly. I hope the EU regulators have a similar philosophy.

upperdeckfan and Westerwaelder: I'm unsure why you seem to support monopolistic practices; it leads to higher prices and less choices for consumers.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:00 am

ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


I’m no BA fan but the financials show IAG does know how to run a group and better than LH. LH failed with BMI, Brussels is constantly loss making, Austrian is constantly loss making, Eurowings lost money, Lufthansa had to accept the German state taking a part of the airline. Swiss seems to do alright.

On the other hand BA has been making record profits, Aer Lingus was profitable, Iberia is profitable for the past few years.

Lufthansa also had big issues with staffing and strikes just like BA.
 
User avatar
TheLion
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:14 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent. Aw

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:33 am

factsonly wrote:
skipness1E wrote:

They’re been consistently driving down costs, building up profits and adding shareholder value in recent years. Saying stuff like “IAG is a disaster of a group” just shows you have the wrong idea about what IAG is actually in business for.

and

Well IAG battered Iberia into shape with the threat of growing Iberia Express and letting mainline die. That allowed a proper generational shift in cost cutting away from ex State owned legacy ways of working. IAG are using COVID as the reason to batter BA down the same way. It’s all about creating future shareholder value.


Dear Skipness1E,

For a commercial business to focus on shareholder value only is very very old school.

In today's Business Schools the young are taught to look a little broader at our world. Words like 'Planet and People', as well as Profit regularly appear in their classes.

What IAG did to Iberia and is currently doing to BA is very old school and in today's environment could very well back fire on them.

Just a thought :white:


B777LRF wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
They’re been consistently driving down costs, building up profits and adding shareholder value in recent years.


The former and the latter of your arguments is the exact reason for BA's descent into the realm of ever lower quality. Unless you're one of the institutions who hold the shares, or is one of the executives of IAG, who gives a flying so-and-so about shareholder value? And how have they driven down cost? Mainly by continually shafting their employees. Now if you think it's ok for the people actually doing the work to find themselves in ever worsening conditions, in order to make a few rich people even richer, then we'll have to disagree.

"Shareholder value" is the single worst expression ever to emanate from the cesspit that is Wall Street.

Besides, where is all that profit they amassed when they find themselves in need of cash?


I agree with these sentiments. The actions of Willie Walsh & Cruz are a disgrace. They only care about shareholder value, not about customers and staff.

They only change or improve the product offering once the business starts suffering due to their failings. This type of late stage capitalism is only gonna end in failure eventually. It’ll take time, but that time is coming.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:37 am

IAG are clearly trying to recreate their dominance from London over the North Atlantic in Madrid across the South Atlantic. Arguably, Air Europa could be a sensible pan-European low-cost brand, if they do want to phase out Vueling and/or LEVEL. This will not be optimal for the consumer, who will have less choice. The future for all airlines depends how how quickly COVID-19 can be brought under control globally and what subsequent waves look like. The Americas are the current hotspots, but it may be possible to adequately control the spread with masks, hand washing and 1-2m social distancing, along with targeted lock-downs. A sort of COVID whack-a-mole, at least that is my hope.

ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


It is true that IAG are not the LH group. It is true to say that IAG derives the majority of revenue and profits from BA, but the BA OpCo is not the decision maker here. IAG, a Spanish registered UK listed business does. IAG are similar in corporate nature to FR - ruthless opportunism and cost reduction. The attitude within IAG is that no cost is ever low enough. They are opportunistic, for examples look at how they took some of the last 77Ws off the line - they know they can stuff them with CW seats and shuttle them to the US for decades to come. The 737MAX order is a replay of the FR 738 order in 2002. IAG has taken a combined €1.4 Billion from the Spanish and UK governments - basically interest free loans. LH has taken €10 billion from the German Government, the majority of which it will never have to pay back, €2 billion from the Swiss and €450 million from Austria. Tell me who knows how to 'properly run a group'?
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:56 am

max999 wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:

The issue is that the "regulator" is the EU and they look at Spain as a piece of a common/open an larger EU market. Legally, every EU based carrier could open bases and operate from/to/within Spain unrestricted.


The reality is that most countries in Europe can not support two long haul airlines. They tend to have one heavyweight and maybe a few very small niche players. Competition from the other end of long haul routes is fierce. Is it not better to have one strong home airline than two that scrape by? There is plenty of indirect competitions well...


Even in a country as big as the US, the US regulators will review market competition on a city-by-city basis for airline mergers and acquisition. Just because there are many airlines throughout the US, doesn't mean it's OK for a particular state or city to suffer from a monopoly. I hope the EU regulators have a similar philosophy.

upperdeckfan and Westerwaelder: I'm unsure why you seem to support monopolistic practices; it leads to higher prices and less choices for consumers.


I am certainly not supporting monopolistic structures. Air Europa is clearly suffering. If it was a money spinner it would not be up for sale. My point is around achieving the necessary economies of scale to run a hub from a city like Madrid. There simply isn't enough traffic, direct or indirect, to warrant two hub carriers plying the same routes. I'd rather see one strong EU player competing against South American carriers than two weak and loss making ones. Most of the secondary long haul carriers in Europe have either gone bust ( AB, AOM, Air Italy,) or struggle to survive (VS, Norwegian, Condor). AF/KL, BA/IB, LH/LX, AZ are all competing for customers to South America through their respective hubs. Add to this the weakening of some key economies in South America and it becomes clear that something will have to give.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:58 am

seansasLCY wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


I’m no BA fan but the financials show IAG does know how to run a group and better than LH. LH failed with BMI, Brussels is constantly loss making, Austrian is constantly loss making, Eurowings lost money, Lufthansa had to accept the German state taking a part of the airline. Swiss seems to do alright.

On the other hand BA has been making record profits, Aer Lingus was profitable, Iberia is profitable for the past few years.

Lufthansa also had big issues with staffing and strikes just like BA.


True, and as for occupying the majority of slots at their home airport, maybe ewt340 you should do your homework. What percentage of slots does LH own in FRA and MUC?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2405
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:52 pm

ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


:roll: amazing how childish people are.

Has everyone forgotten what IB was like pre-IAG?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2573
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent. Aw

Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:50 pm

factsonly wrote:
skipness1E wrote:

They’re been consistently driving down costs, building up profits and adding shareholder value in recent years. Saying stuff like “IAG is a disaster of a group” just shows you have the wrong idea about what IAG is actually in business for.

and

Well IAG battered Iberia into shape with the threat of growing Iberia Express and letting mainline die. That allowed a proper generational shift in cost cutting away from ex State owned legacy ways of working. IAG are using COVID as the reason to batter BA down the same way. It’s all about creating future shareholder value.


Dear Skipness1E,

For a commercial business to focus on shareholder value only is very very old school.

In today's Business Schools the young are taught to look a little broader at our world. Words like 'Planet and People', as well as Profit regularly appear in their classes.

What IAG did to Iberia and is currently doing to BA is very old school and in today's environment could very well back fire on them.

Just a thought :white:


And I for one actually hope (nope, read: PRAY) it does.
What IAG and WW have done to BA and its once proud workforce is nothing short of shameful,
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:52 pm

I am not trying to troll, I am not. But the commercial reality has always been that businesses will pay a market rate for staff and goods. There are queues round the block of young and keen people wanting to be cabin crew for a few years and see the world. There is a glut of desperate and qualified CPLs looking for work. The market rate will fall.
Now I don’t agree with how he’s doing it but frankly Willie Walsh has turned the IAG machine around and it’s a money making machine. His task here is to make more money in the recovery without govt aid. He has, so far as I know, the support of the board. Words like shameful are actually fair comment, I agree. But it’s a business and BA frankly, is overstaffed. Even all these years in the private sector, they still behave like a public sector “flag carrier” and worse half of you guys think they still are!
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:11 pm

If Air Europa doesn't go with IAG, it might be a good scoop for LH or KL-AF to expand into flights to the Americas, and it might be possible to knock IB off its perch. IAG inheritly do not have a need for Air Europa since IB does everything they could. Buying Air Europa is basically a distraction from running IB better.

I would argue actually that Air Europe might be a good fit for an Asian airline trying to expand into Europe and the Americans (though Alitalia would be better for a base in Europe, though there's nothing stopping someone from buying both airlines).

In terms of the argument over IAG. It's pretty much a certain that IAG does offer a worse quality of product and consequently makes a higher profit from these, but OS and SN from LH have been profitable for the past decade (except last year for SN) as well, so one has to question why IAG cheapens everything it touches. IAG's profitability is mainly from transatlantic flights.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:19 pm

vhtje wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
If the deal doesn't complete...would UX still be for sale? Could they survive without latching onto someone else, like AF/KL?


If IAG, with their strong financials, are having second thoughts about the UX deal at the moment, you think AF-KLM, in their perilous financials state, are a good candidate to swoop in?

What are you smoking???


...that maybe DL would be willing to float another $1 Billion to make OneWorld squirm. Haha, who has the cash?

Backing to reality - IAG announced this request prior to Covid-19, and so much as changed since then.

Would not the carrier be worthy of a re-evaluation of assets and pricing, thus making the original asking price higher (and potentially good news for negotiations)? If not, as we have presented that all other buyers are not likely to have the funds - without assistance, would the carrier not be the most likely to collapse? If at IAG, the calculation may also be that almost anything that AirEuropa can offer, they might be able to build from other (fallen) carriers in the upcoming months. It was a smart way to capture the market share (in the past), but in a new environment - where IAG may have a bunch of furloughed staff, cheap access to aircraft and the ability to grab new market share - it might better incentivize a change of thought.
 
airboss787
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:54 pm

Antarius wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


:roll: amazing how childish people are.

Has everyone forgotten what IB was like pre-IAG?


They did revive IB from death but at the same time, they really also cheapened the BA brand and brought it down to a bare minimum standard. Sure, profits are high, but if people hate your product and service but fly you because you're the only option available, that just says that IAG doesn't give a damn about their customers.
Star Alliance Gold
 
debonair
Posts: 3827
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:40 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic here.... So IAG will own Iberia , Iberia Express, Vueling , Air Europa, Level, and codeshare with Air Nostrom...?
Who’s left in Spain without IAG influence...?


Don't forget aeronova aka AirEuropa EXPRESS.
You will still have Volotea and PlusUltra as scheduled airlines...
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5753
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:00 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
I am certainly not supporting monopolistic structures. Air Europa is clearly suffering. If it was a money spinner it would not be up for sale. My point is around achieving the necessary economies of scale to run a hub from a city like Madrid. There simply isn't enough traffic, direct or indirect, to warrant two hub carriers plying the same routes. I'd rather see one strong EU player competing against South American carriers than two weak and loss making ones. Most of the secondary long haul carriers in Europe have either gone bust ( AB, AOM, Air Italy,) or struggle to survive (VS, Norwegian, Condor). AF/KL, BA/IB, LH/LX, AZ are all competing for customers to South America through their respective hubs. Add to this the weakening of some key economies in South America and it becomes clear that something will have to give.


In my view the Air Europa acquisition never mad any sense. It was just a way to avoid AFKL buying it.

I agree Madrid (or Spain) do not need Air Europa. In the same way Germany did not need Air Berlin. Or the UK (London) does not need Virgin Atlantic.

The competition point is pure BS. I recall when Spanair when bankrupt and some people said that would be the end of BCN. Spanair went bankrupt in January 2012, and BCN went from 35M PAX in 2012 to 52M in 2019. Let's see where UX competes:

- Madrid - domestic (mainland): those are purely connections (ALC, BCN, VLC, AGP, SVQ) or they will be once the high-speed train is completed (LCG, VGO, OVD, BIO). Irrelevant.

- Madrid / mainland - islands. That is a bit tricky, specially since Norwegian has left the market and Ryanair had closed some bases (pre-COVID) because there was too much competition. But with UX out of the game, Ryanair could be back. And it would be a great opportunity for Volotea to flourish.

- Madrid - Europe: completely irrelevant market. Everything is geared towards connections to LATAM. There is plenty of competition (Euro legacies, Ryanair, EasyJet, Wizz, etc.).

- Madrid - Americas: competition here is overly exaggerated. UX does not even fly to major markets like MEX and SCL. For other major markets like BOG, LIM or GRU there is the local carrier. So what is left? Having competition on MAD-MVD does not look to me like a big priority.

If UX goes bankrupt, no doubt it will be fantastic in the medium term for Madrid. It will make IB's hub stronger which will make it grow organically. With less competition, new carriers will enter the market or increase frequencies. Like Spanair for BCN.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:22 pm

If you want another EU-LATAM carrier, why not bring in TAP? But it shouldn't be IAG but a competing airline alliance.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2405
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:29 pm

airboss787 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland europe.


:roll: amazing how childish people are.

Has everyone forgotten what IB was like pre-IAG?


They did revive IB from death but at the same time, they really also cheapened the BA brand and brought it down to a bare minimum standard. Sure, profits are high, but if people hate your product and service but fly you because you're the only option available, that just says that IAG doesn't give a damn about their customers.


How is BA the only option available? It is the most convenient for those in London/the UK, but a ton of traffic is London bound from elsewhere and every single major carrier flies to LHR.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:57 pm

x1234 wrote:
Air Europa for some reason doesn't fly to Mexico (#2 largest LatAm economy). They should fly to MEX & CUN.

UX' codeshares or codeshared on AM's MEX-MAD flights. Clearly if the IAG acquisition were to go ahead, that codeshare agreement would come to an end.

Also, prior to the pandemic, UX flew its own metal MAD-CUN and AM placed its code on it. I took a CUN-MAD one-way in December of 2018 at a really, really cheap price (older A332).
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
BealineV953
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:23 pm

lesfalls wrote:
https://www.turama.es/iberia-a-punto-de-cancelar-la-compra-de-air-europa

Seems that the airline might stay independent as IAG is looking to save money with the current ongoing crisis. At the same time Air Europa might just accept the previous terms from the deal made with IB.

Your thoughts?


This thread is like déjà vu all over again.
Earlier this year there was a long thread covering the proposed IAG purchase of Air Europa.
See: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

On 7th May Wille Walsh said the process for IAG to acquire Air Europa was ongoing, and noted that the agreement between the pair did contain a price adjustment mechanism. “We still have to go through the full competition regulatory approval process. And that is ongoing. So at this point, the process continues.”
If IAG decided to walk away from the deal, there would be a public announcement.

Last year IAG released a presentation on their proposed acquisition of Air Europa. The presentation makes it clear that the priority for IAG is strengthening its position in the Europe-Latin America market. IAG state that the IAG share of the Europe-Latin America market will increase from 19% to 26% if the deal is approved. IAG gives the AF/KL plus LATAM (future Skyteam) share as 27%.
EU Regulators are considering the acquisition. If the Regulators find that the proposed acquisition will limit competition, it does not mean that the deal must be blocked. Rather, the Regulators may call for conditions that allow competition to continue in the relevant markets.
IAG will have to decide whether the proposed acquisition is still attractive after any concessions they are required to make.
IAG manages expenditure very carefully. IAG has confirmed that it will pay a €40-million break fee to Globalia if the transaction does not proceed. This suggests that IAG is confident of approval with acceptable conditions.

The EU is pro-consumer. EU competition law seeks to maintain competition and to protect consumers from anti-competitive behavior.
To enable competition, EU Regulators have in previous cases made their approval of an airline acquisition, merger or joint venture conditional on the removal of barriers to entry.
In the EU rules on acquisition it says: “…the entry of new competitors may be regarded as a competitive constraint which is sufficient to prevent or thwart the potential anti-competitive effects of the concentration.”
For example, EU approval of the BA acquisition of bmi was conditional on, amongst others things, BA releasing suitable slots at Heathrow to enable other airlines to offer UK domestic services.

See: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pressco ... /IP_12_338

The acquisition of Air Europa will not give the IAG group dominance throughout the EU. However, the deal would give the IAG group a strong position in Spain, and particularly in Madrid.
It seems likely that the regulators will require IAG / Iberia to release slots to potential competitors to enable them to enter the market. Anticipating this, IAG has offered slots at Madrid for Volotea.

If the proposed acquisition of Air Europa is approved and goes ahead then EU competition law applies.
Anti-competitive behaviour is prohibited by Articles 101 and 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).
Two main types of anti-competitive activity are prohibited, one of which is ‘Abuse of a dominant market position’ (under the Article 102 prohibitions). This prohibits businesses with significant market power unfairly exploiting their strong market positions.
To be in a position of dominance, a business must have the ability to act independently of its customers, competitors and consumers. Establishing if a company is dominant requires an assessment of a number of elements but, as a general rule, if a business has a 50% market share there is a presumption that it is dominant. However, dominance has been found to exist where market share is as low as 40%.

There are few if any barriers to other airlines that might want to enter the shorthaul markets currently served by Air Europa, particularly if slots are made available.
Established airlines would have to decide whether they are likely to make a profit. If an airline believes it has a compelling value for money offer then it can be confident of being able to compete with a dominant competitor.
Ryanair, easyJet and Wizz have shown that they are willing to try new markets and that they are perfectly capable of competing profitably with other carriers. Where they have not been happy with the results, they have simply moved resources (aircraft, crews etc.) from one market to another. This flexibility means that for those carriers there is little risk in entering, or re-entering, Air Europa markets.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:40 pm

fcogafa wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic here.... So IAG will own Iberia, Iberia Express, Vueling, Air Europa, Level, and codeshare with Air Nostrom...?
Who’s left in Spain without IAG influence...?


Volotea was offered slots to offset the deal


...and easyJet and Ryanair have significant operations in Spain.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:45 pm

ewt340 wrote:
British airways isn't Lufthansa Group. They don't know how to properly run a group.

They became lazy when they know Heathrow Slots are constrained. Which lead them to maintain majority in their home turf. On a competitive market, they would got crushed.

Don't let them take over mainland Europe.


British Airways is owned by IAG. BA does not run the IAG group. BA, Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vueling operate independently, reporting to IAG.
IAG certainly does know how to run a group of airlines.
Heathrow is one of the most competitive air travel markets in the world.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:51 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
max999 wrote:



Giving IAG monopoly power in Spain is wrong. The reasons for rejecting this deal have not changed regardless of the pandemic. The regulators should not allow this to happen.


The issue is that the "regulator" is the EU and they look at Spain as a piece of a common/open an larger EU market. Legally, every EU based carrier could open bases and operate from/to/within Spain unrestricted.


The reality is that most countries in Europe can not support two long haul airlines. They tend to have one heavyweight and maybe a few very small niche players. Competition from the other end of long haul routes is fierce. Is it not better to have one strong home airline than two that scrape by? There is plenty of indirect competitions well...


I agree entirely. IAG owning Iberia and Air Europa follows on from BA merging with BCal and Air France taking over UTA. One strong, global carrier is stronger than the two parts.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm

max999 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Having long term monopoly pricing power in Spain is also kind of appealing to IAG... :-)


TUGMASTER wrote:
Slightly off topic here.... So IAG will own Iberia , Iberia Express, Vueling , Air Europa, Level, and codeshare with Air Nostrom...?
Who’s left in Spain without IAG influence...?


Giving IAG monopoly power in Spain is wrong. The reasons for rejecting this deal have not changed regardless of the pandemic. The regulators should not allow this to happen.


IAG will not have monopoly pricing power. To be in this position, a business must have the ability to act independently of its customers, competitors and consumers.
If IAG acquires Air Europa:
IAG will have 26% of the Europe-Latin America market.
I don't know what share it will have of the Spain to/from the rest of Europe market, but with the number of airlines serving Spain, it will be nowhere near the definition of monopoly.
IAG could have a dominant position if the Spanish domestic market. However, slots have been offered to Volotea enable new competition. easyJet and Ryanair are present in this market.
If Iberia and its partners do manage to achieve monopolistic pricing in the Spanish domestic market, then economic theory says that where a company makes excess profits, competitors will enter the market.
In economics, excess profit (also called abnormal, supernormal or pure profit) is "profit of a firm over and above what provides its owners with a normal (market equilibrium) return to capital."
Normal profit (return) in turn is defined as opportunity cost of the owner's resources.
According to the theoretical model of perfect competition, excess profits are unsustainable because they stimulate new supply, which forces down prices and eliminates the excess profit.
That is, if IAG puts up prices other airlines will see an opportunity to enter the market and to make a profit.
If an airline believes it has a compelling offer (better product, value for money prices) then it can be confident of being able to attract customers away from a dominant competitor.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Nightmareliner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:26 pm

Don't forget that Unite the Union (representing 25,000 BA staff) are standing as a 3rd party to block this merger - and have taken their case to the European Competition Comission.

Unite, Britain and Ireland's biggest union, has informed the EU commissioner for Competition, Margrethe Vestager, that it intends to act as a third party opposing the acquisition of Air Europa by BA's parent company IAG.

The union is now in talks with the DG Competition case team who will be investigating the takeover.


https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/n ... ommission/
 
dcajet
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 pm

Juan Jose Hidalgo, Air Europa's and parent Globalia founder, says the airline is running out of cash and struggling to pay the monthly leases of its 16-strong 787 fleet, as reported today by aviator.aero.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:27 pm

Funny how so many of you are OK with Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, but you argue that it is unacceptable for Iberia to dominate Madrid in a similar way.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3366
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:45 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Funny how so many of you are OK with Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, but you argue that it is unacceptable for Iberia to dominate Madrid in a similar way.

Paris still has a lot of competition even if AF is the main hub carrier. It's just a pity if another big european airline that competes to the national carrier goes down. The only other airlines independently run are Virgin Atlantic and Norwegian which have been able to act as big carriers. To have a second airline shows that a country the size of Spain can support two big carriers which everyone wishes to deny on this site. If I'm not mistaken Air Europa was making some money not to far back and it wasn't bad money either. Volotea is the one with minimal returns the last year.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
himarhernandez
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:03 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:38 pm

dcajet wrote:
Juan Jose Hidalgo, Air Europa's and parent Globalia founder, says the airline is running out of cash and struggling to pay the monthly leases of its 16-strong 787 fleet, as reported today by aviator.aero.



Do you have a link. So sad. I love IB but I always thought that it was good to have a good competitor. We all remember how IB operated when it had monopoly...
 
Markfly
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:47 pm

Where were the BA unions when IAG bought BMI while Iberia was firing staff?

himarhernandez wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Juan Jose Hidalgo, Air Europa's and parent Globalia founder, says the airline is running out of cash and struggling to pay the monthly leases of its 16-strong 787 fleet, as reported today by aviator.aero.



Do you have a link. So sad. I love IB but I always thought that it was good to have a good competitor. We all remember how IB operated when it had monopoly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIJMyQHUBic
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:58 pm

lesfalls wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Funny how so many of you are OK with Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, but you argue that it is unacceptable for Iberia to dominate Madrid in a similar way.

Paris still has a lot of competition even if AF is the main hub carrier. It's just a pity if another big european airline that competes to the national carrier goes down. The only other airlines independently run are Virgin Atlantic and Norwegian which have been able to act as big carriers. To have a second airline shows that a country the size of Spain can support two big carriers which everyone wishes to deny on this site. If I'm not mistaken Air Europa was making some money not to far back and it wasn't bad money either. Volotea is the one with minimal returns the last year.


Maybe you could provide us with some numbers how Paris is more a competitive market for AF than Madrid is for IB?

Besides, my impression has always been (and it's only an impression) that the French government is way more protective of AF than most other countries n Europe are of their main airline? With the exception of Italy and AZ of course...
 
kelual
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:18 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm

Where were the BA unions when IAG bought BMI while Iberia was firing staff? one thing for sure IB staff was not trying to blow up that deal even though our salaries were being slashed by 40% and 25% of our work force was being let go, while BA mainline staff was SAFE. And they now play the "why only the british workers of IAG have to make the sacrifice" card? Who is betraying who by going against the job stability of other employees of the same company?
Which french airline is competing with AF in Paris? Which Dutch airline is competing with KLM in Amsterdam? Which german airline is competing with Lufthansa in FRA or MUC? Which Swiss airline is competing with Swiss in Zurich? Which Italian airline is competing with Alitalia in FCO or MXP? which swedish/Danish airline is competing with SAS in ARN or CPH? which Portuguese airline is competing with TAP in LIS?.... I could go on.
But the fact that IB wants to work from its MAD hub in the same conditions as the rest of the European airlines is unacceptable cause it diminishes competition. If any of this European groups buy Air Europa, it will be the end of IB, having Lufthansa or AF/KL flying form its MAD hub and you all know that.
 
Markfly
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:36 pm

kelual wrote:
Where were the BA unions when IAG bought BMI while Iberia was firing staff? one thing for sure IB staff was not trying to blow up that deal even though our salaries were being slashed by 40% and 25% of our work force was being let go, while BA mainline staff was SAFE. And they now play the "why only the british workers of IAG have to make the sacrifice" card? Who is betraying who by going against the job stability of other employees of the same company?
Which french airline is competing with AF in Paris? Which Dutch airline is competing with KLM in Amsterdam? Which german airline is competing with Lufthansa in FRA or MUC? Which Swiss airline is competing with Swiss in Zurich? Which Italian airline is competing with Alitalia in FCO or MXP? which swedish/Danish airline is competing with SAS in ARN or CPH? which Portuguese airline is competing with TAP in LIS?.... I could go on.
But the fact that IB wants to work from its MAD hub in the same conditions as the rest of the European airlines is unacceptable cause it diminishes competition. If any of this European groups buy Air Europa, it will be the end of IB, having Lufthansa or AF/KL flying form its MAD hub and you all know that.

:checkmark: :checkmark:
There is no problem when governments help private airlines to survive/get more power or when partially or completely state-owned companies are protected against competition but a private Spanish airline wants to buy a private Spanish airline... so much issues. And considering its the only case where there is real local competition! Plus Volotea, Plus Ultra, Evelop, Wamos...
This also reminds me, to a certain extend, to AFKL. If KLM needs help fine, the other way around... :stirthepot:
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Re: Air Europa might stay independent. Aw

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:51 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Exactly!!

Its people like skipness there who defend constantly the horrid, one sided, elitest behavior, while 99.9% likely , this is of zero value to them personally. BA is a terrible airline to fly! They have made their "partners" much worse to fly than they were prior to purchasing them, period. This is a fact, and can only be argued by someone who hopes to be invited to the Willie Walsh Retirement extravaganza.,

Its foolishness such as this that has lead capitalism to its dying days for the record.


You might think they are terrible to fly and I for one have definitely seen a marked decrease in the quality of their product but the fact of the matter is that BA have never been as profitable. As a matter of fact BA, Iberia and Aer Lingus have seen their best performance as part of IAG. That profitability comes at the expense of their staff and the quality of their product but their customers don't seem to mind.

Why serve filet when people are happy to pay the same for minute steak?

The UX deal may or may not come to pass but either way the future of Air Europa looks grim. LEVEL Europe is to file for insolvency, more evidence that IAG is willing to pull the plug if the commercials don't work out.
 
onwFan
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:01 pm

Looks like the Spanish Govt is looking to provide support funds to ensure that the merger of UX with IB is executed, in an effort to save UX from collapse. Based on Google translating the below link:

"The Fund to Support the Solvency of Strategic Companies approved by the Government and endowed with 10,000 million will reserve an item so that Iberia can close the Air Europa purchase operation agreed in November 2019, as reported by El País on Saturday."

https://www.preferente.com/noticias-de- ... 01655.html
 
IrishLessor
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:26 am

BeaLineV953 makes an excellent and commercially informed argument in relation to this thread topic. Well done.

Air Europa is largely a leisure carrier and yields in this space are challenging, a large amount of their business is Tour Operator focussed. It's a logical approach for IAG to acquire the business.

In relation to the other comments particularly the ludicrous suggestion that IAG can't run it's group of airlines, this is totally lacking an substance. This is a commercial enterprise, traditionally a very profitable one.

No point saying labouring the points about IB or BA cutting employee terms and pay. No mention of the low cost airlines and how they've driven rates of pay down and terms of work etc. IAG and its airlines do not make sustainable returns on short haul and it needs to continually look over its shoulder in terms of its cost base when compared to Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz. Why should BA or IB pay an excessive premium to staff in broadly similar jobs? A lot of contributors need to put a commercial hat on and look at the big picture.

Finally, whether BA made excellent profits before the pandemic or not is a mute point. The clock has been reset, the industry has been turned on its head. There will be a fall out and SH rivals are waiting in the wings to capture more of the business. Gatwick may be gone and the cash cow that is North America is not going to come back for some time. BA, will need to ensure that ir can keep new entrants out if LHR or else it has a real problem on its hands.
 
onwFan
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:51 am

Newspaper Cinco Dias reports that IAG has reached a deal to halve the purchase price for Air Europa, expected to be somewhere between 500-600M euros. Announcement expected this week.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aire ... SKCN24T0R2
 
Detroit313
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:09 pm

Air Europa is going to collapse without IAG.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8047
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:29 pm

onwFan wrote:
Newspaper Cinco Dias reports that IAG has reached a deal to halve the purchase price for Air Europa, expected to be somewhere between 500-600M euros. Announcement expected this week.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aire ... SKCN24T0R2


Airline assets - planes, gates, slots, brands (and regrettably, employees) - are worth less than they were pre-COVID.
 
a350lover
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: Air Europa might stay independent.

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:59 pm

Link just in Spanish:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cincodias. ... 8.amp.html

Iberia very close to reach an agreement to buy UX for half the original price.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Posts: 3366
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:51 pm

Hope this means that there will be new competition in MAD. Could FR add new aircraft or V7 open a base at the airpot? MAD is Europes 5th busiest airport and airfares will surely hike with the competition on many routes going down from 2 to 1 or 3 to 2.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:49 pm

Iberia and Air Europa, with Spain's government blessing, want to close the agreement this month for around Euro 500 million, half the price agreed in November.

https://elpais.com/economia/2020-08-04/ ... icion.html
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24608
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:54 pm

Globalia, the group that owns Air Europa, has requested €400 million euros from the Spanish government.
Iberia's purchase of Air Europa was announced is still pending approval by Spanish competition watchdogs, but progress stalled due to COVID-19 as IAG also seeks to renegotiate purchase price.

https://www.libremercado.com/2020-09-07 ... 276663591/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
IWMBH
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:02 pm

I find it hard to believe that they will actually close this deal. Why would you spend this kind of money in the middle of a pandemic.

If the Spanish government is willing to keep Air Europe afloat let them pay the bill and just buy it later when te crisis is over.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3794
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:09 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they will actually close this deal. Why would you spend this kind of money in the middle of a pandemic.

If the Spanish government is willing to keep Air Europe afloat let them pay the bill and just buy it later when te crisis is over.


The way I read the aid requests is that Spain is essentially going to subsidize IAG purchasing UX to save jobs and solidify MAD as a long-haul hub. IAG won't pay anywhere near 1B, it will be like 400 - 500M.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5753
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:12 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
The way I read the aid requests is that Spain is essentially going to subsidize IAG purchasing UX to save jobs and solidify MAD as a long-haul hub. IAG won't pay anywhere near 1B, it will be like 400 - 500M.


Well you never know.

Back in 2011 it was the same thing with Spanair (even more controversial because Spanair was the "Catalan airline") and it went bankrupt at the end.

Granted that IAG had not made a LOI for Spanair but many people thought that Spanair would have been saved at any cost.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8047
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:50 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they will actually close this deal. Why would you spend this kind of money in the middle of a pandemic.

If the Spanish government is willing to keep Air Europe afloat let them pay the bill and just buy it later when te crisis is over.


The way I read the aid requests is that Spain is essentially going to subsidize IAG purchasing UX to save jobs and solidify MAD as a long-haul hub. IAG won't pay anywhere near 1B, it will be like 400 - 500M.


A question to LAXintl in particular, but I'll throw this out there:

What, in the current environment, does UX have that's worth 400-500 million Euros to IAG? Why wouldn't IAG just let it collapse into liquidation and then pick up gates, route authorities, or whatever, for virtually nothing? Avoid staff integration issues, buying capacity they don't need, lots of liabilities...
 
HunterATL
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they will actually close this deal. Why would you spend this kind of money in the middle of a pandemic.

If the Spanish government is willing to keep Air Europe afloat let them pay the bill and just buy it later when te crisis is over.


The way I read the aid requests is that Spain is essentially going to subsidize IAG purchasing UX to save jobs and solidify MAD as a long-haul hub. IAG won't pay anywhere near 1B, it will be like 400 - 500M.


A question to LAXintl in particular, but I'll throw this out there:

What, in the current environment, does UX have that's worth 400-500 million Euros to IAG? Why wouldn't IAG just let it collapse into liquidation and then pick up gates, route authorities, or whatever, for virtually nothing? Avoid staff integration issues, buying capacity they don't need, lots of liabilities...


Depending on corporate insolvency/bankruptcy rules and laws in Spain, the bankrupt/insolvent estate would likely try to hold on to the slots/route authorities for a considerable amount of time until the market improves to maximize their value for creditors. If permissible, the estate would likely not sell the slots or route authorities until the slot waiver is finally lifted. Even then, the estate could seek to lease them rather than sell until the slots reach the same market value they had pre-covid. Under this scenario, IAG would likely face competition from others for those assets and could get shut out or forced to pay more than the renegotiated price for the company as a whole.

In the United States, bankruptcy trustees routinely hold on to intangible assets (assets with no storage or maintenance costs, for example) for a significant amount of time until the trustee is secure in the market value of those assets. Only then does the trustee liquidated those assets in an auction sell to the highest bidder. However, bankruptcy trustees in the United States are compensated with a percentage of the estate they recover for creditors, so they have a built-in incentive to take their time with assets that don't require administrative costs to maintain.

Although this is not an exactly similar situation, American continued to pursue its purchase of TWA, even before Carl Icahn reappeared and showed interest in the debtor, because it feared that a liquidation of the carrier would cause it to pay more for the assets it wanted than the price for purchasing the company as a whole. American convinced itself that other airlines wanted pieces of TWA, so it pushed hard to purchase the company as a whole. Ultimately, American paid more than the market value of the assets, but that is a completely different discussion. I note this only as an example of companys making purchase decisions to avoid a bankruptcy/insolvency auction.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: IAG to buy Air Europa for €1 billion

Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I find it hard to believe that they will actually close this deal. Why would you spend this kind of money in the middle of a pandemic.

If the Spanish government is willing to keep Air Europe afloat let them pay the bill and just buy it later when te crisis is over.


The way I read the aid requests is that Spain is essentially going to subsidize IAG purchasing UX to save jobs and solidify MAD as a long-haul hub. IAG won't pay anywhere near 1B, it will be like 400 - 500M.


A question to LAXintl in particular, but I'll throw this out there:

What, in the current environment, does UX have that's worth 400-500 million Euros to IAG? Why wouldn't IAG just let it collapse into liquidation and then pick up gates, route authorities, or whatever, for virtually nothing? Avoid staff integration issues, buying capacity they don't need, lots of liabilities...


This. When you’re an airline on government-support you can just ride this crisis out and wait till this is over. By then a lot of competitors will be gone and there is room for growth. I think some - especially European - carriers can gain something because of the Corona virus.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos