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klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:46 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
spinotter wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


Except for DTW, I think your list is perfect. We don't need DTW, do we?

Considering the poster its not surprising to see DTW listed, I believe EWR, BWI, BOS and PHL are all possible



In PHL FI can't even sustain year round service there. Plus PHL already has 2 carriers on the route.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


Except for DTW, I think your list is perfect. We don't need DTW, do we?



We sure do DTW needs this type of carrier and this type of carrier needs DTW. And before you say anything negative until they serve DTW and fail they are just as likely to succeeded.


Rephrase, DTW needs that type of carrier, the carrier doesn't need DTW to be successful
 
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stl07
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:14 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

Probably not, and certainly not the first year when they don't fly to the USA yet. Wizzair would crush them.

Once those flights to the USA are there, they might get some transfer traffic from Poland but I'm afraid it won't be enough. Wizzair would still capture all the O/D traffic. However as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they can make a deal with Wizzair to provide the feed from Eastern Europe at Keflavik. That way they wouldn't have to serve these destinations themselves and they can still have them in their network. It would be a win-win for both airlines.



Many of those are major airports, which is one of the things that killed WOW Air. Maybe they should pick secondary airports instead. Certainly in Europe secondary airports work better for LCCs, they're cheaper to fly into and therefor allow fares to be lower. Besides, many major airports are slot congested and therefor difficult to get in. Also, from major airports there is likely to be competition. At secondary airports this competition likely doesn't exist.

Take Amsterdam for example, one of the airports on your list. It's heavily slot congested, getting slots at Amsterdam isn't easy. Besides, after the collapse of WOW Air it didn't take long for Transavia to start Amsterdam - Keflavik, so they'd have to compete against Transavia which is an established low-cost brand in the Netherlands.

However if instead of Amsterdam they'd pick another Dutch airport such as Rotterdam or Eindhoven they'd be able to operate cheaper and they wouldn't have direct competition from Transavia.



Here is the problem though. If I am sitting here in the USA wanting a cheap ticket to Holland I'm going to be searching Amsterdam. Most American's unlike Europeans are geographically challenged. So from the USA point of sale you are going to need to be in the markets that Americans identify with. Remember WOW Air went bad serving places like MIA, SFO, LAX and DFW. Not in places like BOS, EWR and BWI that had reasonably short stage lengths. If we are honest what really killed them was the A330 and that routes that aircraft served. I still think places like CLE and CVG are viable but not at 4 times a week maybe 2 times a week if there is significant savings by using them over the legacies. Remember in the prestige market they are going to have to fight and carve out their market share but in places like YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI then can stimulate their own market at prices they dictate not at prices which the market will bare because they will be the only game in town.



Most American's are geographically challenged?

:roll:

He's not wrong. I'm assuming you missed the CVS story. Also, when you search for flights to England, I bet you don't look beyond LHR,LGW, and Manchester
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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stl07
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:16 pm

Username bias aside, I'm curious whether they will restart flights to smaller cities like STL and PIT that had little to no competition or they will only stick to the big markets like EWR where demand is infinite
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:30 pm

stl07 wrote:
Username bias aside, I'm curious whether they will restart flights to smaller cities like STL and PIT that had little to no competition or they will only stick to the big markets like EWR where demand is infinite



I would say STL is a winner too except it's to far to make a same day turn in time to continue on to mainland Europe. I think the furthest viable point might be Chicago but delays there could screw up the works. That's why DTW, BWI, YU and YYZ work the best They are 4 pretty good sized markets that are not delay prone due to traffic. So unless the aircraft arrives late there is a pretty good chance of an onetime departure.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
usflyer msp
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:37 pm

I hate to be the realist here but I still don't see how a ULCC makes money flying nothing but 4-6 hour flights. ULCC's make money by keeping the segments per plane high and most of the longer stuff takes place overnight when the planes would otherwise be sitting. If you are only going to be able to charge $69 for seat, it is much more lucrative to fly 2 BOS-BWI roundtrips ($69 x 4) in the time it takes to fly a BOS-KEF oneway ($69 x 1). I just do not see how this model could possible work, even with the ancillary revenue.

But I wish Play the best of luck...
 
alan3
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:47 pm

Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?
 
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oxonrow
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:14 am

alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers drop correlates with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.
Last edited by oxonrow on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
konkret
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:18 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Take Amsterdam for example, one of the airports on your list. It's heavily slot congested, getting slots at Amsterdam isn't easy. Besides, after the collapse of WOW Air it didn't take long for Transavia to start Amsterdam - Keflavik, so they'd have to compete against Transavia which is an established low-cost brand in the Netherlands.

However if instead of Amsterdam they'd pick another Dutch airport such as Rotterdam or Eindhoven they'd be able to operate cheaper and they wouldn't have direct competition from Transavia.


Getting slots in RTM or EIN is not a piece of cake either.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:20 am

oxonrow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers dropping correlate with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.


...but we no indication that this venture is being subsidized/otherwise supported by the tourism authorities or tourism related businesses so it still needs to be independently profitable. I still don't see the business case for the airline.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:30 am

usflyer msp wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers dropping correlate with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.


...but we no indication that this venture is being subsidized/otherwise supported by the tourism authorities or tourism related businesses so it still needs to be independently profitable. I still don't see the business case for the airline.


EU competition laws apply to Iceland (EEA/EFTA) so no direct subsidies possible. I am skeptical too, but without a wide-body madness of WOW, perhaps Play can be a slimmer/meaner player (pardon the pun) and make it work. I'd love to see it work. I see the KEF-US market as offering some potential, but those dynamics are a little tricky: longer distances, different customer expectations, etc. Fingers cross though.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:07 am

usflyer msp wrote:
I hate to be the realist here but I still don't see how a ULCC makes money flying nothing but 4-6 hour flights. ULCC's make money by keeping the segments per plane high and most of the longer stuff takes place overnight when the planes would otherwise be sitting. If you are only going to be able to charge $69 for seat, it is much more lucrative to fly 2 BOS-BWI roundtrips ($69 x 4) in the time it takes to fly a BOS-KEF oneway ($69 x 1). I just do not see how this model could possible work, even with the ancillary revenue.

But I wish Play the best of luck...



That's why you don't fly to BOS you fly to places where you can charge $600 RT and that's still half of the going rate of the incumbent carrier. PLAY needs to fly to places where there is a big enough market and where they don't have to as you say give away seats at $99 each way. That's why YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI work where EWR and BOS don't. 60% at $600 RT is better than 90% at $198 RT. That is why PLAY needs DTW
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
konkret
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:42 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Spot on. Secondary airports in Europe and Primaries in the US. The difference for the pax is the good public transport on the EU side and the horrid state of it on the US side.

I'm happy to fly in Orly, Linate, Stansted, whatever. Any airport in the Netherlands is perfectly fine, given the size of the country.


Neither Orly nor Linate are low cost “secondary airports” - on the contrary both are closer to the city center and often preferred by business travelers. And public travel options from real secondary airports such as Beauvais or Bergamo are not too good either.

I don’t want to be nitpicking but I don’t think many visitors to the Netherlands would find landing in Groningen or Maastricht particularly convenient for their travel plans.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:00 am

winginit wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


I agree. They should fly to YYZ and YUL. Wow was able to fly daily to YUL, often on A321, so the passenger demand was probably there. And as opposed to the US with Norwegian, Canada isn't served by any ULCC for transatlantic flight with connections (except Level which doesn't have a lot of connections, if any).

Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


It baffles me that the common recommendations here are to start service to a swath of destinations that WW flew enticing passengers with ultra-low fares with only six A321s... as if that's not exactly what lead to the downfall of WW. Do we not learn from the past?

I'll be genuinely surprised if this PLAY takes flight at all.


What led to WW's downfall was its adventures with high-density A330-300s that were all leased and hard to fill with sufficient-yielding passengers. FI has 4 wide-bodies, but 3 of the 4 are fully owned. (All of FI's passenger B752s are also fully owned, including the three leased to VR.) Ownership of assets matters, as FI would only need to pay the airport fees and not leasing fees, except on the one leased B763. (The MAX fleet is all leased, but FI is likely receiving compensation there.) The A321 in a W8Y208 - 30" pitch in Y, might not be too bad, copying the Spirit Airlines seat map with a 30" Y pitch instead of 28".

I also agree that no flight should be beyond a 5-hour flight either way, to permit (barring IRROPS) a 1-day, 4-cycle rotation.

konkret wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Spot on. Secondary airports in Europe and Primaries in the US. The difference for the pax is the good public transport on the EU side and the horrid state of it on the US side.

I'm happy to fly in Orly, Linate, Stansted, whatever. Any airport in the Netherlands is perfectly fine, given the size of the country.


Neither Orly nor Linate are low cost “secondary airports” - on the contrary both are closer to the city center and often preferred by business travelers. And public travel options from real secondary airports such as Beauvais or Bergamo are not too good either.

I don’t want to be nitpicking but I don’t think many visitors to the Netherlands would find landing in Groningen or Maastricht particularly convenient for their travel plans.


ORY as a destination could be to put pressure on DY, whose Paris airport of choice is ORY. I don't get why AF doesn't fly to other business centers outside the EU from ORY, except JFK.

As for LIN, I don't believe it can be served from KEF as Iceland is not in the EU (although Iceland is in Schengen and the European trade area). I don't see Iceland joining the EU because of old disputes with the cod wars and Icesave, although I could see a negotiated agreement allowing flights to and from KEF from LIN.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:31 am

konkret wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Spot on. Secondary airports in Europe and Primaries in the US. The difference for the pax is the good public transport on the EU side and the horrid state of it on the US side.

I'm happy to fly in Orly, Linate, Stansted, whatever. Any airport in the Netherlands is perfectly fine, given the size of the country.


Neither Orly nor Linate are low cost “secondary airports” - on the contrary both are closer to the city center and often preferred by business travelers. And public travel options from real secondary airports such as Beauvais or Bergamo are not too good either.

I don’t want to be nitpicking but I don’t think many visitors to the Netherlands would find landing in Groningen or Maastricht particularly convenient for their travel plans.


I said nothing about "low cost" with regard to airports, but I stand by the notion that my examples are secondary, at least in the context of international service (ie, extra-EU). All of those cities have clearly dominant/primary (mostly newer and larger) international airports.
Seems to me the rise of Ryan, Wizz, EasyJet and others would not have been fully realized without the presence of those kinds of secondary (my word) airports. If not cheaper, they certainly are able to offer better time slots, critical to the success of an aspiring Icelandic connector.

I don't consider your examples of Beauvais or Bergamo to be secondary; those are locations designed to serve other areas completely (regardless of compartive distances). They would equate to the laughable notion that Stewart airport serves NYC or other such silliness.
I assure you, if an EU LCC carrier could service DCA, DAL, HOU, they most certainly would (examples of US city center, legacy/secondary airports).
 
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:51 am

Who thought it was a good idea to put the red colored aircraft on a red background??
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:40 am

konkret wrote:
And public travel options from real secondary airports such as Beauvais or Bergamo are not too good either.


Sorry, but you might want to rethink that. Both airports offer cheap and frequent shuttle services to their corresponding cities. They're not part of the public transport system, that's why you might not have been able to find them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

For Paris Beauvais it's here: https://shop.aeroportparisbeauvais.com/en/ and then click on Access to official airport shuttle.

For Milan Bergamo it's here: https://www.terravision.eu/airport_tran ... ort-milan/

As you can see, there is a direct bus service from Beauvais airport to Paris Porte Maillot and from Bergamo airport to Milan central station. Similar shuttle services exist in other secondary airports like Barcelona Girona / Reus, Munich Memmingen, Warsaw Modlin, Oslo Torp, Stockholm Skavsta, etc. With these shuttle services in mind, a secondary airport doesn't have to be inconvenient.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:52 am

FlyHappy wrote:
They would equate to the laughable notion that Stewart airport serves NYC or other such silliness.


Laughable if seen through American eyes indeed, however from a European point of view it's a whole different story. That's why Norwegian was able to set up a service with a local American bus company to set up a shuttle service between Stewart airport and New York City when they served that airport. And it worked! Europeans are used to such shuttle services, it's just the Americans who didn't even consider it to be an option. Granted, most passengers on that shuttle service were European, but what does it matter? The buses that ran those shuttles were full and to the people using them Stewart airport was a serious option to get to New York City.

Granted, without those shuttles it might have been a whole other story. Then the airport might not have worked for serving New York City, but the presence of a shuttle service made it work.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:41 am

oxonrow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers drop correlates with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.


They don't, though. KEF pax numbers yes, but the majority of the drop is actually in terms of transfer pax. The few O&D tourists that would've only come to Iceland due to garbage fares offered by WOW don't tend to be value adding to the economy anyway.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Polot
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:55 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
They would equate to the laughable notion that Stewart airport serves NYC or other such silliness.


Laughable if seen through American eyes indeed, however from a European point of view it's a whole different story. That's why Norwegian was able to set up a service with a local American bus company to set up a shuttle service between Stewart airport and New York City when they served that airport. And it worked! Europeans are used to such shuttle services, it's just the Americans who didn't even consider it to be an option. Granted, most passengers on that shuttle service were European, but what does it matter? The buses that ran those shuttles were full and to the people using them Stewart airport was a serious option to get to New York City.

Granted, without those shuttles it might have been a whole other story. Then the airport might not have worked for serving New York City, but the presence of a shuttle service made it work.


It worked so well DY made no money on the flights (in other words, couldn’t attract enough passengers at high enough fares) and has completely pulled out of Stewart while focusing on JFK.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:07 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers drop correlates with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.


They don't, though. KEF pax numbers yes, but the majority of the drop is actually in terms of transfer pax. The few O&D tourists that would've only come to Iceland due to garbage fares offered by WOW don't tend to be value adding to the economy anyway.



Somebody needs to keep Icelandair honest. Fares offered by WOW and others like them contribute a lot to the market. Can't wait for PLAY to get started and making flying affordable again for students and those who have a limited budget. The world is for everyone to see not just for corporations to rake in profits.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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adamh8297
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


I agree. They should fly to YYZ and YUL. Wow was able to fly daily to YUL, often on A321, so the passenger demand was probably there. And as opposed to the US with Norwegian, Canada isn't served by any ULCC for transatlantic flight with connections (except Level which doesn't have a lot of connections, if any).

Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


The thing with WAW is that a lot of young Poles need to travel between the US/Canada on a budget so in my mind WAW works well for the sake of transit passengers from YYZ and DTW who have no low fare options. Agreed all 4 options I chose in North America give PLAY pricing power in those markets.



I bet of you went to Warsaw Krakow or Katowice and asked the youth where they would want to go in USA, I think these 4 would be 99 percent of answers: NYC CHI LAX MIA
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
mjoelnir
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:21 pm

enilria wrote:
winginit wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:

I agree. They should fly to YYZ and YUL. Wow was able to fly daily to YUL, often on A321, so the passenger demand was probably there. And as opposed to the US with Norwegian, Canada isn't served by any ULCC for transatlantic flight with connections (except Level which doesn't have a lot of connections, if any).

Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


It baffles me that the common recommendations here are to start service to a swath of destinations that WW flew enticing passengers with ultra-low fares with only six A321s... as if that's not exactly what lead to the downfall of WW. Do we not learn from the past?

I'll be genuinely surprised if this PLAY takes flight at all.

They may not take flight, but I think Iceland and the companies invested in Iceland realized that the money WW was losing was small potatoes compared to how much money it was bringing into the economy. Not unlike EK in its earlier days. I'm sure they would like to make a profit, but there may be other goals this time.


No Icelandic government would subsidize a second Icelandic airline. If they would do it, they would have to subsidize Icelandair by the same amount. They could have a run in with the competition regulation of the EU.
The next question would be why. Iceland or better KEF is well connected as it is, no need for the government to do something. The effect of WOW going bust on the icelandic economy has been far less than anticipated.
For Icelandair the distribution between O&D and transit passengers has changed considerable. In 2018 O&D was 46 % and via (transit) was 54 %. This year up to end of Q3, it is 55% O&D and 45% via. So people are just flying more with other airlines to Iceland, but the transit via Iceland is sharply reduced.

If Play will be run as a business it may live. If they plan for subsidies, or run it at a loss to grow market share quickly, it will die like WOW.
 
twicearound
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:
Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


Probably not, and certainly not the first year when they don't fly to the USA yet. Wizzair would crush them.

Once those flights to the USA are there, they might get some transfer traffic from Poland but I'm afraid it won't be enough. Wizzair would still capture all the O/D traffic. However as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they can make a deal with Wizzair to provide the feed from Eastern Europe at Keflavik. That way they wouldn't have to serve these destinations themselves and they can still have them in their network. It would be a win-win for both airlines.

klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.


Many of those are major airports, which is one of the things that killed WOW Air. Maybe they should pick secondary airports instead. Certainly in Europe secondary airports work better for LCCs, they're cheaper to fly into and therefor allow fares to be lower. Besides, many major airports are slot congested and therefor difficult to get in. Also, from major airports there is likely to be competition. At secondary airports this competition likely doesn't exist.

Take Amsterdam for example, one of the airports on your list. It's heavily slot congested, getting slots at Amsterdam isn't easy. Besides, after the collapse of WOW Air it didn't take long for Transavia to start Amsterdam - Keflavik, so they'd have to compete against Transavia which is an established low-cost brand in the Netherlands.

However if instead of Amsterdam they'd pick another Dutch airport such as Rotterdam or Eindhoven they'd be able to operate cheaper and they wouldn't have direct competition from Transavia.



Here is the problem though. If I am sitting here in the USA wanting a cheap ticket to Holland I'm going to be searching Amsterdam. Most American's unlike Europeans are geographically challenged. So from the USA point of sale you are going to need to be in the markets that Americans identify with. Remember WOW Air went bad serving places like MIA, SFO, LAX and DFW. Not in places like BOS, EWR and BWI that had reasonably short stage lengths. If we are honest what really killed them was the A330 and that routes that aircraft served. I still think places like CLE and CVG are viable but not at 4 times a week maybe 2 times a week if there is significant savings by using them over the legacies. Remember in the prestige market they are going to have to fight and carve out their market share but in places like YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI then can stimulate their own market at prices they dictate not at prices which the market will bare because they will be the only game in town.


How will they be the only game in town in YUL, YYZ, DTW?
 
twicearound
Posts: 171
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:37 pm

oxonrow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Surprised to see most comments here are so positive and excited about this. Would have expected a far more cynical response.

What am I not understanding about why this will work in a way that didn't work last time? Is Iceland suddenly ready for two LCC's again? Are all the stats about Iceland's tourism numbers dropping not relevant? Is there a new model to make ULCC TATL profitable?


Iceland tourism numbers drop correlates with the demise of WOW. The idea being that Iceland NEEDS an LCC to bring it the tourists it needs to make money in other areas.


The drop in tourist numbers was actually a good thing for Iceland. They were dealing with a serious over capacity issue to the point of it impacting the locals' day to day life. I think the current numbers are much more sustainable, and given that the icelandic economy has recovered from the banking crisis, I don't think we will see such a tourism push from their govt.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:15 pm

twicearound wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

Probably not, and certainly not the first year when they don't fly to the USA yet. Wizzair would crush them.

Once those flights to the USA are there, they might get some transfer traffic from Poland but I'm afraid it won't be enough. Wizzair would still capture all the O/D traffic. However as they say, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they can make a deal with Wizzair to provide the feed from Eastern Europe at Keflavik. That way they wouldn't have to serve these destinations themselves and they can still have them in their network. It would be a win-win for both airlines.



Many of those are major airports, which is one of the things that killed WOW Air. Maybe they should pick secondary airports instead. Certainly in Europe secondary airports work better for LCCs, they're cheaper to fly into and therefor allow fares to be lower. Besides, many major airports are slot congested and therefor difficult to get in. Also, from major airports there is likely to be competition. At secondary airports this competition likely doesn't exist.

Take Amsterdam for example, one of the airports on your list. It's heavily slot congested, getting slots at Amsterdam isn't easy. Besides, after the collapse of WOW Air it didn't take long for Transavia to start Amsterdam - Keflavik, so they'd have to compete against Transavia which is an established low-cost brand in the Netherlands.

However if instead of Amsterdam they'd pick another Dutch airport such as Rotterdam or Eindhoven they'd be able to operate cheaper and they wouldn't have direct competition from Transavia.



Here is the problem though. If I am sitting here in the USA wanting a cheap ticket to Holland I'm going to be searching Amsterdam. Most American's unlike Europeans are geographically challenged. So from the USA point of sale you are going to need to be in the markets that Americans identify with. Remember WOW Air went bad serving places like MIA, SFO, LAX and DFW. Not in places like BOS, EWR and BWI that had reasonably short stage lengths. If we are honest what really killed them was the A330 and that routes that aircraft served. I still think places like CLE and CVG are viable but not at 4 times a week maybe 2 times a week if there is significant savings by using them over the legacies. Remember in the prestige market they are going to have to fight and carve out their market share but in places like YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI then can stimulate their own market at prices they dictate not at prices which the market will bare because they will be the only game in town.


How will they be the only game in town in YUL, YYZ, DTW?



None of those airports have a true TATL ULCC. So they can pretty much dictate the pricing that works for them along with BWI. Other major airports in the USA are served by DY and Level causing them only to be able to charge what the market will bear. Not the case at the airports I mentioned.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:19 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
samuelx88 wrote:

I agree. They should fly to YYZ and YUL. Wow was able to fly daily to YUL, often on A321, so the passenger demand was probably there. And as opposed to the US with Norwegian, Canada isn't served by any ULCC for transatlantic flight with connections (except Level which doesn't have a lot of connections, if any).

Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


The thing with WAW is that a lot of young Poles need to travel between the US/Canada on a budget so in my mind WAW works well for the sake of transit passengers from YYZ and DTW who have no low fare options. Agreed all 4 options I chose in North America give PLAY pricing power in those markets.



I bet of you went to Warsaw Krakow or Katowice and asked the youth where they would want to go in USA, I think these 4 would be 99 percent of answers: NYC CHI LAX MIA



Not if their family lives in Michigan or Ohio. Many Poles chose WOW out of Detroit for their flights to Poland. You forgot about the people in Michigan who want to travel on a budget to Poland.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
akb88
Topic Author
Posts: 169
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:29 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
So are the mechanics now...Playtechs?


And a new terminal building at KEF.... PlayStation
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

The thing with WAW is that a lot of young Poles need to travel between the US/Canada on a budget so in my mind WAW works well for the sake of transit passengers from YYZ and DTW who have no low fare options. Agreed all 4 options I chose in North America give PLAY pricing power in those markets.



I bet of you went to Warsaw Krakow or Katowice and asked the youth where they would want to go in USA, I think these 4 would be 99 percent of answers: NYC CHI LAX MIA



Not if their family lives in Michigan or Ohio. Many Poles chose WOW out of Detroit for their flights to Poland. You forgot about the people in Michigan who want to travel on a budget to Poland.


Ah yes, those low-yielding 4 PDEW who fit that criteria. Lets start an airline specifically for them! ;)

What about the people in Missouri who want to travel on a budget to Hungary?
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:32 pm

I would replace BWI with IAD on this go-around for WOW, IMHO.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:08 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
klm617 wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:


I bet of you went to Warsaw Krakow or Katowice and asked the youth where they would want to go in USA, I think these 4 would be 99 percent of answers: NYC CHI LAX MIA



Not if their family lives in Michigan or Ohio. Many Poles chose WOW out of Detroit for their flights to Poland. You forgot about the people in Michigan who want to travel on a budget to Poland.


Ah yes, those low-yielding 4 PDEW who fit that criteria. Lets start an airline specifically for them! ;)

What about the people in Missouri who want to travel on a budget to Hungary?



Exactly that's why DTW had a 60% load factor in the dead of winter where nobody want's to be with liquidation hanging over WOW's head for 4 months. That's a little more than 4 passengers a day in my estimation
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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hvusslax
Posts: 416
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:55 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


I agree. They should fly to YYZ and YUL. Wow was able to fly daily to YUL, often on A321, so the passenger demand was probably there. And as opposed to the US with Norwegian, Canada isn't served by any ULCC for transatlantic flight with connections (except Level which doesn't have a lot of connections, if any).

Would Warsaw work despite Wizz Air and their very cheap tickets to Reykjavík?


Wizz Air's current offering for WAW-KEF is 4 redeye flights per week. Considering the Polish population in Iceland there might be a market there for another player (heh), especially if they can also get some transit traffic. The problem with trying to capture a piece of the Poland-North America traffic is that WAW is too far into Europe to fit with connection banks in KEF for North America. If they want to make longer stage lengths possible on the European side of the network they would need to restrict themselves to the closest markets in the US and Canada, probably flying no farther than NYC. That could actually be a smart move as it would bring some European cities into range where they would not have competition from Icelandair (WAW, PRG, VIE, NCE, MXP).
 
AA747123
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:38 pm

I do like the bright red, looks snazzy!
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB


Except for DTW, I think your list is perfect. We don't need DTW, do we?



We sure do DTW needs this type of carrier and this type of carrier needs DTW. And before you say anything negative until they serve DTW and fail they are just as likely to succeeded.


I can’t imagine any airline in this day and age being successful unless they fly to DTW. It’s too important to have that kind of gap in the route network, especially for a transatlantic airline. It’s the Paris of the Midwest.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
Somebody needs to keep Icelandair honest. Fares offered by WOW and others like them contribute a lot to the market. Can't wait for PLAY to get started and making flying affordable again for students and those who have a limited budget. The world is for everyone to see not just for corporations to rake in profits.


I thought Loftleithir/Icelandair was the original low cost TATL carrier, way before Laker.

I think RePlay or Rewind is a more apt name.
 
winginit
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Not if their family lives in Michigan or Ohio. Many Poles chose WOW out of Detroit for their flights to Poland. You forgot about the people in Michigan who want to travel on a budget to Poland.


Ah yes, those low-yielding 4 PDEW who fit that criteria. Lets start an airline specifically for them! ;)

What about the people in Missouri who want to travel on a budget to Hungary?



Exactly that's why DTW had a 60% load factor in the dead of winter where nobody want's to be with liquidation hanging over WOW's head for 4 months.


You're saying that as though it's a good thing... 60% is devastatingly bad for any LCC or ULCC especially given it was in November, December, and January, which are historically stronger for demand to Iceland compared to the trough of February.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Not if their family lives in Michigan or Ohio. Many Poles chose WOW out of Detroit for their flights to Poland. You forgot about the people in Michigan who want to travel on a budget to Poland.


Ah yes, those low-yielding 4 PDEW who fit that criteria. Lets start an airline specifically for them! ;)

What about the people in Missouri who want to travel on a budget to Hungary?



Exactly that's why DTW had a 60% load factor in the dead of winter where nobody want's to be with liquidation hanging over WOW's head for 4 months. That's a little more than 4 passengers a day in my estimation


Warsaw was summer seasonal...sooo, I'd guess those 60% of seats were sold to other destinations. :)
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 838
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:06 pm

I cannot resist.

PAX pay play and get PLAYED again and again.

What a brilliant ponzi!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
alan3
Posts: 420
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
Somebody needs to keep Icelandair honest. Fares offered by WOW and others like them contribute a lot to the market. Can't wait for PLAY to get started and making flying affordable again for students and those who have a limited budget. The world is for everyone to see not just for corporations to rake in profits.


"Making flying affordable again".

I agree, people on a budget should be able to see the world and the cost of air travel has dropped significantly in recent decades. But the general failure of Long Haul Low Cost and the short-life span of eye-catching "$99 TATL" type fares shows that there has to be a minimum ceiling at which a company can buy an airplane, pay for fuel, pay salaries, pay for gate slots and still operate.

Otherwise those students and people on a budget risk being worse off by getting stranded by fly-by-night carriers going bust in the middle of the night.

Wouldn't "Economy Lite" type fares on a legacy airline that is safely making money from premium cabins be a more realistic way to travel and operate an airline?
 
akb88
Topic Author
Posts: 169
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:20 pm

They started publishing job adverts for Play looking for "playpals" as their little punny nickname for their customer service staff. That wording was quickly pulled :lol:
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 4233
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:31 pm

Polot wrote:
It worked so well DY made no money on the flights (in other words, couldn’t attract enough passengers at high enough fares) and has completely pulled out of Stewart while focusing on JFK.


Wrong!

Granted, it didn't work from all European airports. Shannon, Cork and even Edinburgh were loss-making. However it did work from Dublin, they even upgraded that route to 2x daily. And as long as they were able to serve it with their own metal (the MAX), it was profitable. We have various sources saying so. The problems began when the MAX was grounded and thus they had to put other aircraft on this route. That made it too expensive to operate and it flipped from profitable to loss-making.

That's why they decided to pull the plug on it. Had the MAX not have been grounded, they probably would still be flying there.

You were saying they couldn't get enough passengers, that's absolutely not true. The Dublin-Stewart route was very busy, many flights had a 100% load factor. In other words, they were full. With such load factors you don't need high fares to be profitable, the sum of that many low fares added up is higher than the sum of a few high fares added up and most seats empty. But without the right aircraft for it, the route became a mess.
 
klm617
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:50 pm

alan3 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Somebody needs to keep Icelandair honest. Fares offered by WOW and others like them contribute a lot to the market. Can't wait for PLAY to get started and making flying affordable again for students and those who have a limited budget. The world is for everyone to see not just for corporations to rake in profits.


"Making flying affordable again".

I agree, people on a budget should be able to see the world and the cost of air travel has dropped significantly in recent decades. But the general failure of Long Haul Low Cost and the short-life span of eye-catching "$99 TATL" type fares shows that there has to be a minimum ceiling at which a company can buy an airplane, pay for fuel, pay salaries, pay for gate slots and still operate.

Otherwise those students and people on a budget risk being worse off by getting stranded by fly-by-night carriers going bust in the middle of the night.

Wouldn't "Economy Lite" type fares on a legacy airline that is safely making money from premium cabins be a more realistic way to travel and operate an airline?



That's an option but no legacy carrier is going to waste space on their aircraft to sell $600 round trip tickets to Europe in the summer. Again in places BOS, NYC, CHI you can only charge $99 each way because you have to carve out market share in airports like DTW, BWI, YYZ and YUL you can start at a higher base far because you are creating your own market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:18 pm

WOW Air still owes me a return ticket from Amsterdam to Iceland. Let’s hope this follow-up airline doesn’t create a similar mess.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:26 pm

dabpit wrote:
Wow, this definitely stands out. Just like Spirit.

So did the livery of WOW Air. I must say their purple looked a lot better than this red. Very unimaginative.

dabpit wrote:
Certainly grabs your attention so great decision (red fuselage and engines, of course, the wings won't be painted)!

Why won’t the wings be painted?
 
DALMD80
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:31 pm

klm617 wrote:
I think a great list of destinations for Summer 2020 from KEF would be.

BWI
DTW
YYZ
YUL
TXL
FRA
AMS
LGW
BRU
CDG
BCN
WAW
DUB

Yeah. WOW used to fly to BWI, and that was an... interesting livery to see. I like the new PLAY livery, and I can't wait to see it at BWI!
Farewell to the Mad Dogs- the first week of June 2020 will be remembered by most of us here on A.net as the day the Mad Dogs left.
 
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dabpit
Posts: 849
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
dabpit wrote:
Wow, this definitely stands out. Just like Spirit.

So did the livery of WOW Air. I must say their purple looked a lot better than this red. Very unimaginative.

dabpit wrote:
Certainly grabs your attention so great decision (red fuselage and engines, of course, the wings won't be painted)!

Why won’t the wings be painted?

Normally airlines do not paint wings for reasons of cost and maintenance. The Purple color on WOW was nice but I am rather biased since my favorite color is red, having said that I am a big fan of Spirit painting the whole plane a stand-out color since it is great from a marketing standpoint.
Carpe Diem
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2196
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Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:25 am

stl07 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Here is the problem though. If I am sitting here in the USA wanting a cheap ticket to Holland I'm going to be searching Amsterdam. Most American's unlike Europeans are geographically challenged. So from the USA point of sale you are going to need to be in the markets that Americans identify with. Remember WOW Air went bad serving places like MIA, SFO, LAX and DFW. Not in places like BOS, EWR and BWI that had reasonably short stage lengths. If we are honest what really killed them was the A330 and that routes that aircraft served. I still think places like CLE and CVG are viable but not at 4 times a week maybe 2 times a week if there is significant savings by using them over the legacies. Remember in the prestige market they are going to have to fight and carve out their market share but in places like YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI then can stimulate their own market at prices they dictate not at prices which the market will bare because they will be the only game in town.



Most American's are geographically challenged?

:roll:

He's not wrong. I'm assuming you missed the CVS story. Also, when you search for flights to England, I bet you don't look beyond LHR,LGW, and Manchester



I missed one irrelevant new story that somehow proves this stereotype of 330+ million people?

You should inform every airline flying with American-made Jeppessen charts and NAV databases, Garmin, Rockwell Collins or Honeywell GPS's (every airline in the developed world). That American's don't understand geography.

Perhaps the real bias is European arrogance.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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stl07
Posts: 2353
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:11 am

Varsity1 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:


Most Americans are geographically challenged?

:roll:

He's not wrong. I'm assuming you missed the CVS story. Also, when you search for flights to England, I bet you don't look beyond LHR,LGW, and Manchester



I missed one irrelevant new story that somehow proves this stereotype of 330+ million people?

You should inform every airline flying with American-made Jeppesen charts and NAV databases, Garmin, Rockwell Collins or Honeywell GPS's (every airline in the developed world). That Americans don't understand geography.

Perhaps the real bias is European arrogance.

What about the TSA agents who stopped fliers from DC because they don't accept ID's from international travelers who live in "Colombia"
Also, you may not be geographically challenged, but you certainly are grammatically challenged. See highlights. :D
Lighten up man, all that he was saying was that Americans won't recognize 2ndary European cities when they book, just like Europeans wouldn't recognize Islip or Melbourne FL (before they changed the name to Orlando, which consequently led to a TATL :stirthepot: )
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
klm617
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:13 am

MartijnNL wrote:
dabpit wrote:
Wow, this definitely stands out. Just like Spirit.

So did the livery of WOW Air. I must say their purple looked a lot better than this red. Very unimaginative.

dabpit wrote:
Certainly grabs your attention so great decision (red fuselage and engines, of course, the wings won't be painted)!

Why won’t the wings be painted?



I agree the purple was better.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Antarius
Posts: 2134
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:58 am

stl07 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
klm617 wrote:


Here is the problem though. If I am sitting here in the USA wanting a cheap ticket to Holland I'm going to be searching Amsterdam. Most American's unlike Europeans are geographically challenged. So from the USA point of sale you are going to need to be in the markets that Americans identify with. Remember WOW Air went bad serving places like MIA, SFO, LAX and DFW. Not in places like BOS, EWR and BWI that had reasonably short stage lengths. If we are honest what really killed them was the A330 and that routes that aircraft served. I still think places like CLE and CVG are viable but not at 4 times a week maybe 2 times a week if there is significant savings by using them over the legacies. Remember in the prestige market they are going to have to fight and carve out their market share but in places like YUL, YYZ, DTW and BWI then can stimulate their own market at prices they dictate not at prices which the market will bare because they will be the only game in town.



Most American's are geographically challenged?

:roll:

He's not wrong. I'm assuming you missed the CVS story. Also, when you search for flights to England, I bet you don't look beyond LHR,LGW, and Manchester


I think the point was that before casting stones, one should know the difference between a plural and a possessive.
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