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klm617
Posts: 4894
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:06 pm

airsmiles wrote:
stl07 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Yawn. Another low-fare start up who wants to lose some investors money. How many times do these ventures have to start and fail before people learn. After five decades of watching these startups undermine the whole airline industry, I’ve lost my patience. If you want to know why there’s a race to the bottom for employee benefits and conditions, not to mention onboard passenger service, then look here.

Are they silly? Yes. But, I'm not complaining. When I can go directly from St. Louis to Keflavik freaking Iceland for 80 USD, I could care less about the fact that investors are loosing money


It’s not just investors though. Do you really think fares that low aren’t harming otherwise sustainable airlines and all of there employees. So a start-up charges loss making fares and existing airlines will be forced to respond in some form or another. Further job losses and cost-cutting will be the result. These “disruptor” airlines like Play and Norwegian just undermine the wider industry and people’s livelihoods.


No one forces these airlines to match low fares of another carrier. There is enough customers to go around it's just the greedy legacy carriers always feel the need to control every market they are in.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:14 pm

What a terrible name. And I couldn't think of a worse time in history to launch an airline. I suppose leases are cheap, at least.
 
AKL321NX
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:35 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:49 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
What a terrible name. And I couldn't think of a worse time in history to launch an airline. I suppose leases are cheap, at least.

Seven months ago was a vastly different era
 
dc855
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:41 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:41 am

kyrone wrote:
dc855 wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:


I tried to look but I cannot find this exact piece of information online. I however have a strong recollection of seeing this somewhere. Maybe it was in a paper or on the radio or maybe they've even edited the article that I saw it in. Or I might have seen this in a dream. :rotfl: There are however plenty of quotes online about leasing rates being very low right now (unsurprisingly), but since I cannot back this particular point up it up, it is fair to take it with a grain of salt.




Is this it:

https://turisti.is/2020/06/new-icelandi ... aking-off/


:bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:
 
IrishLessor
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:44 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:56 am

There certainly are some advantages on the cost side as a result of this pandemic. Namely aircraft lease rates and fuel costs. However, the question is what long term sustainable competitive advantage would they have. This doesn't feel like an airline that has expansion ideas, so I can't see scale as being their goal.

Icelandair might be legacy but it is good at what it does and can be competitive on price, it's especially competitive in the business cabin. They have a lot of connecting passengers at KEF. Surprisingly, WOW was said to have had 95% point-to-point traffic, which was great for Iceland.

My opinion is this airline will be too leisure price orientated who will struggle to survive against Icelandair who will have much better yields and connecting traffic through a network carrier approach. We learned from WOW that there were some new markets worth pursuing from KEF, like some sun routes like ALC, Icelandair's opportunity.Not confident this is a long term.viable project.
 
airsmiles
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:14 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:25 am

klm617 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Yawn. Another low-fare start up who wants to lose some investors money. How many times do these ventures have to start and fail before people learn. After five decades of watching these startups undermine the whole airline industry, I’ve lost my patience. If you want to know why there’s a race to the bottom for employee benefits and conditions, not to mention onboard passenger service, then look here.


Low fare carriers are not the enemy greedy investors and bad management are the ones who undermine the airline industry. Low fare carriers were not around when Eastern, TWA, Pan Am and all these mergers to place to eliminate competition so the airlines could leverage themselves into a place of power to force the customer to do what ever and pay whatever they wanted them to do. I champion airlines like WOW Air and the like that at least give people choice as far as pricing goes.


So you don’t think Wow and Norwegian had any effect on other airlines and their bad employment practices were acceptable? Even a well-manager LCC like Ryanair still causes a race to the bottom that other airlines have to respond to.

Then there’s the environmental impact. These airlines might operate newer fuel efficient aircraft but LCC’s have created a huge new demand for flying that didn’t exist before. The additional environmental emissions are huge but most people try and ignore that. Apart from feeding people’s selfish right to fly anywhere for peanuts, I really can’t see much benefit from airlines like Play and other low fare airlines.
 
A330Inter
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:15 am

airsmiles wrote:
Apart from feeding people’s selfish right to fly anywhere for peanuts, I really can’t see much benefit from airlines like Play and other low fare airlines.


Thank god for these low cost airlines, or more accurately, disruptive airline business models to shake things up in this beautiful but very old minded industry...
Price paid on full service carriers was definitely not up to the service quality standard and these low cost airlines showed that you can still get from A to Z safely for the real price it costs.
I am aware a lot of people lost their job, but also a lot of other people got a job in these new airlines,
Also a lot of people, selfish like me, were given the chance to travel and explore the world, visit family and friends, for a reasonable fee.
For the un-sustainable business models (like WOW), let them Play ( :D ) for a bit and eventually the market stabilizes. As someone above said, no-one forces full service carriers to match them, but they should ensure their product is different to justify the price mark-up.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:34 am

klm617 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Yawn. Another low-fare start up who wants to lose some investors money. How many times do these ventures have to start and fail before people learn. After five decades of watching these startups undermine the whole airline industry, I’ve lost my patience. If you want to know why there’s a race to the bottom for employee benefits and conditions, not to mention onboard passenger service, then look here.


Low fare carriers are not the enemy greedy investors and bad management are the ones who undermine the airline industry. Low fare carriers were not around when Eastern, TWA, Pan Am and all these mergers to place to eliminate competition so the airlines could leverage themselves into a place of power to force the customer to do what ever and pay whatever they wanted them to do. I champion airlines like WOW Air and the like that at least give people choice as far as pricing goes.



Ehm... Southwest?
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
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dabpit
Posts: 849
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 10:19 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Has there been any indication on which cities they are going to fly to?
Carpe Diem
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 711
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:34 pm

dabpit wrote:
Has there been any indication on which cities they are going to fly to?


It is in the article:

"It is not known where Play will fly. The company’s original plan was to start regular flights to Copenhagen, Berlin, London, Alicante, Tenerife and Paris. Later, the plan is to start flights to North America — to New York, Boston, Baltimore and Toronto."
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7790
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:57 pm

airsmiles wrote:
Then there’s the environmental impact. These airlines might operate newer fuel efficient aircraft but LCC’s have created a huge new demand for flying that didn’t exist before. The additional environmental emissions are huge but most people try and ignore that. Apart from feeding people’s selfish right to fly anywhere for peanuts, I really can’t see much benefit from airlines like Play and other low fare airlines.


I'm confused by the 'logic' employed here. We shouldn't have more LCC operators using fuel efficient new planes... to allow legacy carriers to continue polluting with older aircraft and lower density seating? If you want to cut emissions, tax fuel for carriers or ticket purchases by consumers. Locking in the legacy model doesn't help consumers or the environment - but it is favored by lower-productive, monopoly-rent-seeking legacy carrier employees.
 
klm617
Posts: 4894
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:43 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
klm617 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Yawn. Another low-fare start up who wants to lose some investors money. How many times do these ventures have to start and fail before people learn. After five decades of watching these startups undermine the whole airline industry, I’ve lost my patience. If you want to know why there’s a race to the bottom for employee benefits and conditions, not to mention onboard passenger service, then look here.


Low fare carriers are not the enemy greedy investors and bad management are the ones who undermine the airline industry. Low fare carriers were not around when Eastern, TWA, Pan Am and all these mergers to place to eliminate competition so the airlines could leverage themselves into a place of power to force the customer to do what ever and pay whatever they wanted them to do. I champion airlines like WOW Air and the like that at least give people choice as far as pricing goes.



Ehm... Southwest?


Southwest is not a LCC carrier for price sensitive travelers. Their prices are right in line with the big 3. I have never found WN fares to be that much lower when booking travel.
Last edited by klm617 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4894
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:49 pm

airsmiles wrote:
klm617 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Yawn. Another low-fare start up who wants to lose some investors money. How many times do these ventures have to start and fail before people learn. After five decades of watching these startups undermine the whole airline industry, I’ve lost my patience. If you want to know why there’s a race to the bottom for employee benefits and conditions, not to mention onboard passenger service, then look here.


Low fare carriers are not the enemy greedy investors and bad management are the ones who undermine the airline industry. Low fare carriers were not around when Eastern, TWA, Pan Am and all these mergers to place to eliminate competition so the airlines could leverage themselves into a place of power to force the customer to do what ever and pay whatever they wanted them to do. I champion airlines like WOW Air and the like that at least give people choice as far as pricing goes.


So you don’t think Wow and Norwegian had any effect on other airlines and their bad employment practices were acceptable? Even a well-manager LCC like Ryanair still causes a race to the bottom that other airlines have to respond to.

Then there’s the environmental impact. These airlines might operate newer fuel efficient aircraft but LCC’s have created a huge new demand for flying that didn’t exist before. The additional environmental emissions are huge but most people try and ignore that. Apart from feeding people’s selfish right to fly anywhere for peanuts, I really can’t see much benefit from airlines like Play and other low fare airlines.


No one forces any one to follow the low fare carriers to the bottom as you say. There is a market for everyone to capture. Legacies can cater to their customers just as the LCC can cater to theirs. As far as the environment argument the first thing should be out lawing anything greater than high density seating so that more people can be moved on a given aircraft. Business class and first class take up a lot of space on an aircraft and should be removed in that case. It's a myth that carriers have to price match low fare carriers. An airline operating a narrow body 4 or 5 times a week is no threat to anyone if anything they stimulate a market that didn't even exist.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
airsmiles
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:14 pm

Re: WOW Air to relaunch as PLAY

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
Then there’s the environmental impact. These airlines might operate newer fuel efficient aircraft but LCC’s have created a huge new demand for flying that didn’t exist before. The additional environmental emissions are huge but most people try and ignore that. Apart from feeding people’s selfish right to fly anywhere for peanuts, I really can’t see much benefit from airlines like Play and other low fare airlines.


I'm confused by the 'logic' employed here. We shouldn't have more LCC operators using fuel efficient new planes... to allow legacy carriers to continue polluting with older aircraft and lower density seating? If you want to cut emissions, tax fuel for carriers or ticket purchases by consumers. Locking in the legacy model doesn't help consumers or the environment - but it is favored by lower-productive, monopoly-rent-seeking legacy carrier employees.


It’s good that more efficient aircraft are coming on stream but my point was that a whole new bunch of people are now flying that didn’t before. That means hundreds or thousands more aircraft pumping out emissions and an airline industry that is creating much greater TOTAL emissions. People like Play, Wow and Norwegian enter the market at crazy prices then eventually burn. I still think LCC’s are a mixed blessing when you consider the emissions and the adverse impact to industry employment practices, long-term financial stability and lowering of service offerings.

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