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PANAMsterdam
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KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:18 am

CEO Ben Smith has announced at Air France's Investor Day in Paris that "in the near future" KLM will only use the 777 and 787 as their Long Haul fleet, retiring their 13 A330's. This move will make KLM an all-Boeing airline. (Excluding KLM Cityhopper's Embraer fleet of course)

This news is obviously not a huge surprise, after 'cancelling' KLM's A350 order and giving AF's remaining new 787's to them.


Source: https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... a330-vloot
(I searched this forum but could not find a specific topic about this, please remove this topic in case it is a duplicate)
Last edited by qf789 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited title for clarity
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PlymSpotter
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:40 am

I thought the A330s were always intended to be a reasonably short-term measure.
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golfingboy
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:52 am

I presume this means there will be another order of 787s for KLM coming in the near future?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:53 am

What A350 has the Air France KLM group cancelled?
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:55 am

Little bit of a surprise as they've just finished upgrading them. I fly them quite often and they are a nice ride, in good condition and not much different to the 787s in terms of in flight experience.

I would think the last of the A332s will be last to go and they'll likely go for scrap. A333s will go sooner i'd have thought, should find some employment before going for coke cans.

Surprising they would long off the A333s before the 772s - they are getting seriously old now.

Long term we'll see KL's WB fleet as 789 / 78J / 77W only. Wouldnt be surprised to see them take a handful of 779X to replace the last of the 744s.
 
a320fan
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:56 am

Will they put the 789 onto SXM flights? There’s already operators flying the -8 direct to Europe I wonder if the -9 can do it too?
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juliuswong
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:07 am

mjoelnir wrote:
What A350 has the Air France KLM group cancelled?

More of order transfer. KLM previously had 7 A350 on order, now all 7 have been transferred to Air France. Collectively AF/KLM Group has 28 A350 on order, all for Air France.

In return, Air France will transfer 6 B787-9 on order to KLM.

Once delivery is completed, Air France will 10 B787-9 in fleet, KLM will have 13 B787-9 and 15 B787-10 in fleet.
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JannEejit
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:11 am

PlymSpotter wrote:
I thought the A330s were always intended to be a reasonably short-term measure.


Yes I thought so too, another stop gap measure during the original 787 delays ?
 
na
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:14 am

Will the 787-10 replace the 77E then?
 
Someone83
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:15 am

What are the time frame for this?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:07 pm

Weren't the A330s ordered as a replacement for the 767-300s? Interesting to see KLM hold on to the 747s for as long as they have and remove the A330s so quickly.
 
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Polot
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:10 pm

JannEejit wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
I thought the A330s were always intended to be a reasonably short-term measure.


Yes I thought so too, another stop gap measure during the original 787 delays ?

The A333s were taken on in part due to the 787 delays, but the older A332s predate that and replaced the 767 fleet.

Even with this the A330s will have lasted longer in the fleet than the 767 and A310 (which the 767 replaced) did.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:24 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Weren't the A330s ordered as a replacement for the 767-300s? Interesting to see KLM hold on to the 747s for as long as they have and remove the A330s so quickly.


This comes from the "problem" big European operators face compared to US-operators and why smaller WBs have a hard time to be sold to European operators. In Europe almost all airlines operate long haul out of one or two hubs. Prime routes to NA are then flown with big aircraft (747/777/787-9/10) to offer a good product and because them routes fill those aircraft. Smaller markets are rarely served and if so, they are served in a JV with an US carrier. That is why this small WBs get retired so quickly.
For medium size carriers the smaller WBs (A330s) are perfect to serve TATL the big 4 AF/KLM/BA/LH have the feed to fly big airliners to almost all TATL destination they serve and JV with their partners to the smaller markets on the smaller WBs from the US carriers (767/787-8).
 
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zkojq
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:29 pm

What are the chances of the A330-300s being transferred to AF to replace their ageing A330-200s?
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oldannyboy
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:37 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Weren't the A330s ordered as a replacement for the 767-300s? Interesting to see KLM hold on to the 747s for as long as they have and remove the A330s so quickly.


This comes from the "problem" big European operators face compared to US-operators and why smaller WBs have a hard time to be sold to European operators. In Europe almost all airlines operate long haul out of one or two hubs. Prime routes to NA are then flown with big aircraft (747/777/787-9/10) to offer a good product and because them routes fill those aircraft. Smaller markets are rarely served and if so, they are served in a JV with an US carrier. That is why this small WBs get retired so quickly.
For medium size carriers the smaller WBs (A330s) are perfect to serve TATL the big 4 AF/KLM/BA/LH have the feed to fly big airliners to almost all TATL destination they serve and JV with their partners to the smaller markets on the smaller WBs from the US carriers (767/787-8).


....However you may want to expand your thinking and indeed your point of view. KLM is a global airlines. They fly to lots of places beyond the US. The TATL/NA market is not necessarily everything to large international airlines, so I'm sure there's lots of equally valid good reasons why KL is phasing out the A330 in favour of the [exactly same sized] 787 >> simplify the fleet. And BTW, the A330 is in no way a small wide-body, and in any case most of NA flying is done on twins from AMS, with the 747 historically seeing mostly other routes to Asia.
 
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:44 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Weren't the A330s ordered as a replacement for the 767-300s? Interesting to see KLM hold on to the 747s for as long as they have and remove the A330s so quickly.


This comes from the "problem" big European operators face compared to US-operators and why smaller WBs have a hard time to be sold to European operators. In Europe almost all airlines operate long haul out of one or two hubs. Prime routes to NA are then flown with big aircraft (747/777/787-9/10) to offer a good product and because them routes fill those aircraft. Smaller markets are rarely served and if so, they are served in a JV with an US carrier. That is why this small WBs get retired so quickly.
For medium size carriers the smaller WBs (A330s) are perfect to serve TATL the big 4 AF/KLM/BA/LH have the feed to fly big airliners to almost all TATL destination they serve and JV with their partners to the smaller markets on the smaller WBs from the US carriers (767/787-8).


....However you may want to expand your thinking and indeed your point of view. KLM is a global airlines. They fly to lots of places beyond the US. The TATL/NA market is not necessarily everything to large international airlines, so I'm sure there's lots of equally valid good reasons why KL is phasing out the A330 in favour of the [exactly same sized] 787 >> simplify the fleet. And BTW, the A330 is in no way a small wide-body, and in any case most of NA flying is done on twins from AMS, with the 747 historically seeing mostly other routes to Asia.


Ah yeah for sure, it was more an answer to why the 747 stayed that long. As said the big aircraft are needed and often also on "short" routes. And the A330 was an increase in capacity over the 767, now the fleet will get simplyfied around the bigger aircraft. The trend towards the 787-10 shows that it will even go towards the larger model.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:45 pm

The KL love affair with American planes continues :)

Seriously though, it likely makes more sense to move all the 789’s from AF to KL and have the 359’s at AF. It would help reduce the list of fleet types AF have tended to operate at one time, likely providing efficiencies in overall operational costs.
 
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:05 pm

zkojq wrote:
What are the chances of the A330-300s being transferred to AF to replace their ageing A330-200s?


Mmm...would KL's -300s be of the HGW variant (tonnage?), and if so have a range matching that of the AF's older -332s??
 
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:10 pm

Polot wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
I thought the A330s were always intended to be a reasonably short-term measure.


Yes I thought so too, another stop gap measure during the original 787 delays ?

The A333s were taken on in part due to the 787 delays, but the older A332s predate that and replaced the 767 fleet.

Even with this the A330s will have lasted longer in the fleet than the 767 and A310 (which the 767 replaced) did.


Yes, originally the current batch of 787s were to replace the whole A330 fleet at KL. But KL needed additional aircraft when they took over MP's passenger operations, and A333s were the only short term option. So I would say it's not directly the delays of 787 program that kept the A330 longer at KL, but the lack of delivery slots (which was also caused by the delays, that's true). Another reason was that KLM didn't different Business class seats in their fleet, so they invested in new seats for the A330s which wasn't the original plan.

Someone83 wrote:
What are the time frame for this?

2025, according to the article.

na wrote:
Will the 787-10 replace the 77E then?

Possibly, but the 777X is also evaluated as 77E replacement by KLM.

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Wouldnt be surprised to see them take a handful of 779X to replace the last of the 744s.

No, 2 additional 77W and the 787-10s will take care of that.

golfingboy wrote:
I presume this means there will be another order of 787s for KLM coming in the near future?

Yes, after replacing the remaining 10 744s by 2x 77W and 8x 78X, KL will have just 6x 78X on order while there are 13x A330 to replace. All 5 A333s and one A332 are leased, so these will be replaced by 787-10s when the leases expire in 2022. So KL needs at least 7 more 787 for full A330 replacement. Will be interesting to see if they will order the 787-9 or the 787-10.

zkojq wrote:
What are the chances of the A330-300s being transferred to AF to replace their ageing A330-200s?

Depends, they are not owned but leased, maybe if AF will make deal with the lessor for extending the lease or perhaps a sale. KL bought the A332s they own now from the lessor after leases expired.
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sabby
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:12 pm

zkojq wrote:
What are the chances of the A330-300s being transferred to AF to replace their ageing A330-200s?


Those A332s at AF just got refurbished so I don't think they will be replaced anytime soon. There will always be the asian market for used A330s.
 
FB330
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:20 pm

Not really a surprise.

I believe KLM currently have around 13 787-10 on order (including those 787s swapped from AF). Also, they have 2 x 77Ws coming. So, total o/s orders of 15 aircraft.

I would expect these 15 to ultimatelly replace the remaining 10 747 and 5 A330s (leaving 8 remaining)

On a like for like numbers basis, that suggests an order for 8 aircraft needed to replace the remaining A330s. With 15 772s, the oldest of which approaching 17 years, I certainly could see a bigger order for up to 23 aircraft - all likely a mix of 787-9/787-10.

I personally don't see a 777X order in the near future.

My only disappointment was I had hoped that A350s would eventually join to replace the 772s, but I guess this is now off the table (for now).
Last edited by FB330 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
marcelh
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 pm

For me another reason to fly Delta from AMS to the US and Lufthansa to Asia.
 
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:04 pm

zkojq wrote:
What are the chances of the A330-300s being transferred to AF to replace their ageing A330-200s?


That may actually make sense. The A330-300s could even be replacements for B772s as well, particularly to Africa, India, and South America. The A332s would be interesting though as their owned, but I expect that they head to Air France in exchange for the B789s at AF. That said, it makes sense for KLM to be all Boeing and AF to be mixed (they have one of the largest 777 fleets in the world). I don't see AF keeping the B789 long term, with those operating there being exchanged for A330s.
 
edealinfo
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:22 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
CEO Ben Smith has announced at Air France's Investor Day in Paris that "in the near future" KLM will only use the 777 and 787 as their Long Haul fleet, retiring their 13 A330's. This move will make KLM an all-Boeing airline. (Excluding KLM Cityhopper's Embraer fleet of course)

This news is obviously not a huge surprise, after 'cancelling' KLM's A350 order and giving AF's remaining new 787's to them.


Source: https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... a330-vloot
(I searched this forum but could not find a specific topic about this, please remove this topic in case it is a duplicate)


What is the retirement schedule for the A330?
 
76er
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:49 pm

Investors don’t seem to be very impressed by Ben Smith’s plans, AFKL stock is down over 6% today.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: KLM retires A330's, becomes all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
CEO Ben Smith has announced at Air France's Investor Day in Paris that "in the near future" KLM will only use the 777 and 787 as their Long Haul fleet, retiring their 13 A330's. This move will make KLM an all-Boeing airline. (Excluding KLM Cityhopper's Embraer fleet of course)

This news is obviously not a huge surprise, after 'cancelling' KLM's A350 order and giving AF's remaining new 787's to them.


Source: https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... a330-vloot
(I searched this forum but could not find a specific topic about this, please remove this topic in case it is a duplicate)


What is the retirement schedule for the A330?


Not clear yet, but before 2025. A few leases end in 2021/2022 I read here.

By the way: The source of my opening post has suddenly added a new paragraph with the year 2025 as retirement date in it. That was not in the article when I created this topic :)
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cv990Coronado
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:22 pm

It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?
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IWMBH
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:32 pm

Sad that we don't see a A350 in KL colours. But, I think it makes perfect sense, pilots can fly both the 787 and the 777 on the same type rating and KL's technicians have just 2 WB-types to work on. This will save a lot of money in the long term. Just curious what KL is going to do when the 772ER needs a replacement, the 787-10 can't match the rang of the 777 and on some long-haul routes this could be an issue in the future.

cv990Coronado wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?


The choice between the A320neo and the 737Max hasn't been made. If its up to KL im sure they will select the MAX, but if it is a group decision for short-haul commonality in the AFKL fleet it could very well be the A320.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:36 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?


As Blake Shelton sang, it will be sunny in Seatlle and snowing in New Orleans the day KL walk away from the 737. It would be almost as massive as WN replacing its 737s with Airbuses - ie: never gonna happen.

I have to say a fleet of:

EMB190-E2
EMB195-E2
737-MAX8
737-MAX9
737-MAX10
787-9
787-10
777-300ER

...is pretty efficient. As a loyal KL traveller I applaud them for it, even if I'd have liked to see some A350s in the blue.
 
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American 767
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:52 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Sad that we don't see a A350 in KL colours. But, I think it makes perfect sense, pilots can fly both the 787 and the 777 on the same type rating and KL's technicians have just 2 WB-types to work on. This will save a lot of money in the long term.


It does make sense, yes I agree. But then what will Air France do with the 787-9s that they currently have? Are they going to keep them for a long time? I have the impression that Air France is leaning towards an A350 fleet and slowly moving away from the 787.

IWMBH wrote:
Just curious what KL is going to do when the 772ER needs a replacement, the 787-10 can't match the rang of the 777 and on some long-haul routes this could be an issue in the future.


Ordering more 787-9s maybe. I'm sure that the 787-9 can fly routes the 772ER has flown nonstop. Look at United, they are planning to fly the 787-9 from EWR to CPT nonstop both ways, so if they can do it then the airplane can fly nonstop all the routes the 772ER has flown.
I see the 787-10 as a solution to fill the gap, if needed, between the 787-9 and the 77W/77X.
Has KLM considered the 777X as a 744 replacement? They say they are likely to phase out their 744s soon, by the early 20s. If by the time the last 747 leaves the fleet the 777X is still under testing and not ready to be delivered to customers, then maybe they will order more 77Ws as an interim measure while the 777X issues are still being resolved.
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BNAMealer
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:00 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?


They probably could get a really good deal on the MAX if they wanted, so I’d say yes.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:20 pm

American 767 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Sad that we don't see a A350 in KL colours. But, I think it makes perfect sense, pilots can fly both the 787 and the 777 on the same type rating and KL's technicians have just 2 WB-types to work on. This will save a lot of money in the long term.


It does make sense, yes I agree. But then what will Air France do with the 787-9s that they currently have? Are they going to keep them for a long time? I have the impression that Air France is leaning towards an A350 fleet and slowly moving away from the 787.

IWMBH wrote:
Just curious what KL is going to do when the 772ER needs a replacement, the 787-10 can't match the rang of the 777 and on some long-haul routes this could be an issue in the future.


Ordering more 787-9s maybe. I'm sure that the 787-9 can fly routes the 772ER has flown nonstop. Look at United, they are planning to fly the 787-9 from EWR to CPT nonstop both ways, so if they can do it then the airplane can fly nonstop all the routes the 772ER has flown.
I see the 787-10 as a solution to fill the gap, if needed, between the 787-9 and the 77W/77X.
Has KLM considered the 777X as a 744 replacement? They say they are likely to phase out their 744s soon, by the early 20s. If by the time the last 747 leaves the fleet the 777X is still under testing and not ready to be delivered to customers, then maybe they will order more 77Ws as an interim measure while the 777X issues are still being resolved.


The 747 replacement is already covered with the recent 77W order, most of the remaining 747s are combies anyway which can be replaced by 789s in terms of passenger capacity.

The 777X has been looked at as part of the 77E replacing, which would increase the capacity, just like they did with the 77W orders replacing anything from the MD-11 to the full front pax 747s. If the A330s will go early anything would be still be open concerning the 77E replacement.
 
MEA-707
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:27 pm

I don't expect KLM to become all Boeing again. While the MAX is still likely to be ordered, I can also or at least see them order about 10 to 20 A-321XLRs which would work really well on routes like Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Kigali as well as shorter routes like LHR, CDG, ARN, IST, especially if/when Air France takes them.
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Polot
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:30 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
I don't expect KLM to become all Boeing again. While the MAX is still likely to be ordered, I can also or at least see them order about 10 to 20 A-321XLRs which would work really well on routes like Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Kigali as well as shorter routes like LHR, CDG, ARN, IST, especially if/when Air France takes them.

There is no reason to order XLR for short routes like LHR, CDG, etc if you are using the Max- the Max10 (or just a standard A321neo) can easily handle those with a similar number of seats.
 
Arion640
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:57 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
cv990Coronado wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?


As Blake Shelton sang, it will be sunny in Seatlle and snowing in New Orleans the day KL walk away from the 737. It would be almost as massive as WN replacing its 737s with Airbuses - ie: never gonna happen.


I could of said that about IAG and the 737MAX...
 
Utah744
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:06 pm

Would the A330's be too old for DL? Silly question.
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:09 pm

Utah744 wrote:
Would the A330's be too old for DL? Silly question.


Age/cicle wise probably not but delta has a lot of A339 on order
 
DCA350
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:10 pm

Does the 787-10 have enough range to cover all the 777E routes? Overwise they will be downsizing with a 787-9 on some routes and AMS is slot controlled
 
GalebG4
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Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:24 pm

KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order
25 airplanes in need of replacement with nothing on order for KLM
Air France needs to replace:
15 a330 with nothing on order
10 a380 with some of 28 a350 orders
25 772 with some of 28 a350 orders
4 a340 with some of a350 orders
29 wide body’s in need of replacement with nothing on order for AF

54 wide body airplanes in need of replacement for group in short* term 5 years period with nothing on order.
Possible replacements:
New 777X, a330neo, a350 or 787 orders.
Used 77W from Middle East or 787 unfortunately possible from some European* carrier.
 
76er
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:30 pm

I’m sure that by the time the 77E’s are up for replacement Boeing will have come up with a 78X-ER.
 
Breathe
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:36 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order
25 airplanes in need of replacement with nothing on order for KLM
Air France needs to replace:
15 a330 with nothing on order
10 a380 with some of 28 a350 orders
25 772 with some of 28 a350 orders
4 a340 with some of a350 orders
29 wide body’s in need of replacement with nothing on order for AF

54 wide body airplanes in need of replacement for group in short* term 5 years period with nothing on order.
Possible replacements:
New 777X, a330neo, a350 or 787 orders.
Used 77W from Middle East or 787 unfortunately possible from some European* carrier.

They have some options when they made the initial 787 order:

https://news.klm.com/air-france-klm-sel ... 787-fleet/

* December 2011, Air France-KLM placed a firm order for 25 Boeing 787-9 with the American aircraft manufacturer, with another 25 on option as well as a firm commitment for 12 aircraft on lease from ILFC.


According to this article they have 22 options for the A350

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eries-2021

The Franco-Dutch company firmed its order for 25 A350s and options for 25 more in June 2013 after a two-year-long spat with Roll-Royce over third-party maintenance rights of the Trent XWB engines. In February last year, Air France swapped its remaining orders for two Airbus A380 for three of the smaller A350s, lifting its firm order total of the type to 28 with options on 22. Air France-KLM intends to send 10 on firm order to Joon and 11 to Air France.


So they do have er... [i]options[i] if they want more of either type from both manufactures.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4425
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:39 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order


As has been said multiple times, the 747s already have replacements earmarked, in the form of 2 777-300ERs and 8 of the remaining 787-10s.
The 777-300ER seats the exact same number of passengers as the full passenger 747s, while the 787-10 seats almost 80 more passengers than the 747 combi's.

It is the A330 fleet that doesn't have a replacement yet. (8 of them at least)
 
fightforlove
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:36 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:51 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order
25 airplanes in need of replacement with nothing on order for KLM
Air France needs to replace:
15 a330 with nothing on order
10 a380 with some of 28 a350 orders
25 772 with some of 28 a350 orders
4 a340 with some of a350 orders
29 wide body’s in need of replacement with nothing on order for AF

54 wide body airplanes in need of replacement for group in short* term 5 years period with nothing on order.
Possible replacements:
New 777X, a330neo, a350 or 787 orders.
Used 77W from Middle East or 787 unfortunately possible from some European* carrier.


FWIW, AF have exactly the right amount of A359s (28) + 787 (1) coming to replace all of their 772s (25) plus remaining A340s (4).
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:52 pm

Breathe wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order
25 airplanes in need of replacement with nothing on order for KLM
Air France needs to replace:
15 a330 with nothing on order
10 a380 with some of 28 a350 orders
25 772 with some of 28 a350 orders
4 a340 with some of a350 orders
29 wide body’s in need of replacement with nothing on order for AF

54 wide body airplanes in need of replacement for group in short* term 5 years period with nothing on order.
Possible replacements:
New 777X, a330neo, a350 or 787 orders.
Used 77W from Middle East or 787 unfortunately possible from some European* carrier.

They have some options when they made the initial 787 order:

https://news.klm.com/air-france-klm-sel ... 787-fleet/

* December 2011, Air France-KLM placed a firm order for 25 Boeing 787-9 with the American aircraft manufacturer, with another 25 on option as well as a firm commitment for 12 aircraft on lease from ILFC.


According to this article they have 22 options for the A350

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eries-2021

The Franco-Dutch company firmed its order for 25 A350s and options for 25 more in June 2013 after a two-year-long spat with Roll-Royce over third-party maintenance rights of the Trent XWB engines. In February last year, Air France swapped its remaining orders for two Airbus A380 for three of the smaller A350s, lifting its firm order total of the type to 28 with options on 22. Air France-KLM intends to send 10 on firm order to Joon and 11 to Air France.


So they do have er... [i]options[i] if they want more of either type from both manufactures.

I agree but options* can have some* time limits in order to be activated, also sweet lease rates for some used 777 or ordering new sweet new deals with Boeing and Airbus for their order shortages after 2021-2.
 
inkjet7
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:54 pm

Original presentation in English:
https://www.airfranceklm.com/sites/defa ... ted_vf.pdf

Looks like more 787's for AF as well.
 
inkjet7
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:01 pm

Breathe wrote:

According to this article they have 22 options for the A350

http://www.airlinesanddestinations.com/ ... eing-787s/

35.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:01 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
cv990Coronado wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for long-haul but with the current 737MAX problems plus the 737 pickle fork issues will they still wish to stay with the 737 for short-haul?


As Blake Shelton sang, it will be sunny in Seatlle and snowing in New Orleans the day KL walk away from the 737.


Dec 11 2008 was sunny in Seattle and had snow in New Orleans ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@DadCelo
 
inkjet7
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:06 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order


13 more 787-10 and 2 77W coming up. 25 787's on option for KL/AF. 777X to be certified by 2021.
 
inkjet7
Posts: 173
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:12 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Does the 787-10 have enough range to cover all the 777E routes? Overwise they will be downsizing with a 787-9 on some routes and AMS is slot controlled


Don't think one-for-one. 787-10's can't operate all routes. 77W's or 77X will be used for the longer ones. Increasing frequency by using 787-9's is not an option in a slot-constrained environment. Even if AMS gets more slots, they will soon run out again.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalebG4
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: KLM to retire A330's by 2025, to become all Boeing airline

Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:22 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
KLM needs to replace:
13 a330 with 13 ordered 787
10 747 with nothing on order
15 772 with nothing on order


13 more 787-10 and 2 77W coming up. 25 787's on option for KL/AF. 777X to be certified by 2021.

I agree my mistake 747 with 77W and some 787 orders and a330 with some* 787 orders. Looks like 772 is still not going to be changed in 5 years period. Also huge mistake by not taking into account options.

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