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Sokes
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:04 am

airzona11 wrote:
A321XLR would not be used for long thin routes. This comes up weekly with a different airline and large hub. If you have a hub and are traveling far, wide bodies are what those airlines are going to use. Long and thin need to capture high yield passengers ( a lot of them) to work. There are very few long thin routes today on narrow bodies. That’s not going to change for the legacies.

KLM also has the JV and hub down the road in CDG, further reducing the long thin likely hood.


True. I think of Frankfurt-Pune business class only in a narrowbody. But why is that? How long are two pilots only allowed to fly and how much rest do they need afterwards? Or are the narrowbodies too inefficient?
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keesje
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:09 pm

There's a lot a of big / medium city pairs North Atlantic. You can cover them via hub operations. I wonder where AA, Jetblue and Frontier are going to fly their XLR's into. AMS seems a prime candidate. Just like NortRhine WestFalen, the Nordic and Northern UK. All traditional key KLM markets.
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cv990Coronado
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:03 pm

Surely there must be benefits for AF/KL with a common narrow-bodied fleet? Certain A330 crew could convert quickly to the A320 series.
After the MAX debacle, it can only be the most optimistic 737 supporters who will not concede that the A320/321 is now the most advanced narrow-bodied aircraft.
The MAX stigma is not going away time soon, time change and have the same AF/KL fleet in Europe.
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:00 pm

I don’t think KLM will order Airbus since the group president Ben Smith announce that KLM will be retiring the Airbus A330 in favor of all Boeing instead (Not to mention Cityhopper which operates all Embraer) recently. So with the Airbus goes to AF instead. I know AF has an A220 order and the A321XLR may only be possible for AF instead of KLM.
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keesje
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:17 pm

SQ789 wrote:
I don’t think KLM will order Airbus since the group president Ben Smith announce that KLM will be retiring the Airbus A330 in favor of all Boeing instead (Not to mention Cityhopper which operates all Embraer) recently. So with the Airbus goes to AF instead. I know AF has an A220 order and the A321XLR may only be possible for AF instead of KLM.


KLM will order what suites them best. No other guidance.
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wave46
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:33 pm

Depends on when KLM wants new narrowbodies IMO.

If they want them before 2025, advantage Boeing. Boeing will probably bend over backwards on pricing and delivery due to the MAX debacle. Airbus has less capacity to offer deals in the short-term - they're running full-tilt on deliveries as-is.

If they want them post-2025, equal odds to both. I see no reason why KLM has any loyalty to either manufacturer.

The XLR might be icing on Airbus' offer, but hardly a pivotal reason for KLM to choose one or the other given its route network.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:57 pm

keesje wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
I don’t think KLM will order Airbus since the group president Ben Smith announce that KLM will be retiring the Airbus A330 in favor of all Boeing instead (Not to mention Cityhopper which operates all Embraer) recently. So with the Airbus goes to AF instead. I know AF has an A220 order and the A321XLR may only be possible for AF instead of KLM.

KLM will order what suites them best. No other guidance.

Great, it will be nice seeing the MAX-10 in KLM colors!
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oldannyboy
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:49 pm

Keesje, sorry, but even your thread title choice seems pretty much a "loaded question"...at best. Time to change the title I wonder?

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing that is even remotely "INEVITABLE" about your mere personal desire to see KLM ordering a variant of a jet they have never had the need to operate.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:45 pm

I didn't want to start a new thread, and since this is related to this issue, I thought . I would post it here.

es an order for the Boeing 737 MAX. "However, we do not put a signature until the proven type is safe," says COO Petra de Ruiter in conversation with Aviation News Magazine.

It is a public secret that the Dutch airline company wants to gradually replace its Boeing 737 fleet with more modern and larger equipment. “It is obvious that we opt for the MAX 10, the largest variant of the Boeing 737 MAX. It offers space for around 200 passengers, a lot more than the Boeing 737-800. "

For Transavia this means in concrete terms that more travelers can take part per flight, so that optimum use can be made of the scarce slots at Schiphol, Eindhoven and Rotterdam.

The Transavia fleet currently consists of forty Boeing 737-700s and larger 737-800s. De Ruiter cannot yet say whether they will be replaced in one go by a large order for the MAX.

Boeing first choice
Parent company Air France-KLM is a major customer of both Airbus and Boeing. Air France flies within Europe with the A320 series and recently placed a large order for the A220-300. KLM, on the other hand, has been using the Boeing 737 at medium distances for decades, just like Transavia. "We are a real Boeing company, everything within the organization is geared to that. It would be illogical to switch over to Airbus aircraft, "says De Ruiter.

The oldest Boeing 737 in the current fleet is more than twenty years old and can last for years, but the new 737 MAX offers considerable benefits. This way, not only can more passengers, but the type is also a lot more economical and quieter. "Good for us and good for the environment and the environment".

By deploying quieter aircraft, Transavia also hopes to be able to fly cheaper, since Schiphol gives the quietest category of aircraft a discount on airport charges. "Unfortunately, we cannot yet take advantage of that."

Safety first
Before any pen comes close to a purchase or lease contract, Transavia wants to be fully convinced of the safety of the 737 MAX. Due to fatal accidents with aircraft from Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines, all MAXs worldwide are on the ground and no new ones are delivered. Boeing and the American aviation service FAA recently had a strong head start because of the inadequate control of the safety requirements imposed on a new aircraft. "We are in discussions with the manufacturer and are following developments closely."


Link in Dutch

The Transavia COO has yet again confirmed that they will order the MAX if the time is right, thus the safety issues are cleared up. Interestingly, they seem to eye the B737-10MAX with 200 seats. So we might see another joined KLM / Transavia order in Q1 or Q2 2020, around 100 planes would do nicely.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:18 am

Well, if Transavia (NL) orders the 737-10MAX, it is pretty much a given that KLM will go for the MAX too, but perhaps not only the MAX10. I couldn't imagine HV and KL choosing different aircraft families, so for me this is actually big news. It is the long-expected KL narrowbody order that is announced here (from an unexpected side)

Why would the HV CEO disclose this at this moment? Why not keep it quiet until the MAX storm is over and the plane has regained the flying public's confidence? There's no point in announcing an order for a plane that most your customers don't trust at this moment. Today it may be perceived as a silly business decision, but in a year's time it probably won't.

I'm flying KLM quite frequently on European destinations, mainly to Scandinavia; I am on one of their B737s (or Embraers) at least once a month. And while I am pretty phlegmatic, I must admit that I'm not really looking forward to get onto a MAX anytime soon. Yes, I trust that when KL and HV receive their MAXes, the plane will have flown millions of miles with other airlines without problems, but today, I would be inclined to pass my home carrier and buy a ticket on a SAS A320 instead (even if that means you have to pay for your cup of coffee - yes, I am still a Dutchman ;) ).
 
gia777
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:02 am

737 MAX status is quiestionable and not clear. so how an airline can decide? A320NEO seems a logical choice for now
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FlyRow
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:11 am

gia777 wrote:
737 MAX status is quiestionable and not clear. so how an airline can decide? A320NEO seems a logical choice for now


You are better informed then the HV-board?
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oldannyboy
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:35 am

I am confident that the issues with the MAX are going to be resolved. When I don't know, it might take a few more months possibly, but I still have faith in Boeing. KL also is quite rightly showing some good faith in their manufacturer of choice. And by the time they will have the MAX in the fleet, the aircraft will be a proven design already...
 
Jungleneer
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:03 am

factsonly wrote:
keesje wrote:



Image


From the looks of it the A321 XLR would perfectly fit in their network strategy for expanding, consolidation, defending that network.


Sorry OP, but you answered your own question.

Did you even read the LEEHAM fleet planning graphic and investor day information??

AF/KLM has announced that KLM must reduce its fleet from 5x to 3x different cockpit groups, this is very clearly indicated in the graphic:

1. Regional fleet = 80-130 seater - current Embraer cockpit
2. European fleet 130-200 seater - current B737 cockpit
3. Long Haul fleet 250-400 seater - current B777/B787 cockpit

The question therefore is not just about the A321XLR, but which AIRCRAFT FAMILY will replace KLM's European fleet.

This is either the A320 or B737 family or possibly something completely NEW altogether.


I find this KLM strategy interesting, because it goes against some opinions here in A.net that "Common Type Rating is overrated". This clearly indicates the opposite.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:39 am

Jungleneer wrote:
factsonly wrote:
keesje wrote:



Image


From the looks of it the A321 XLR would perfectly fit in their network strategy for expanding, consolidation, defending that network.


Sorry OP, but you answered your own question.

Did you even read the LEEHAM fleet planning graphic and investor day information??

AF/KLM has announced that KLM must reduce its fleet from 5x to 3x different cockpit groups, this is very clearly indicated in the graphic:

1. Regional fleet = 80-130 seater - current Embraer cockpit
2. European fleet 130-200 seater - current B737 cockpit
3. Long Haul fleet 250-400 seater - current B777/B787 cockpit

The question therefore is not just about the A321XLR, but which AIRCRAFT FAMILY will replace KLM's European fleet.

This is either the A320 or B737 family or possibly something completely NEW altogether.


I find this KLM strategy interesting, because it goes against some opinions here in A.net that "Common Type Rating is overrated". This clearly indicates the opposite.


AF/KLM has announced that KLM must reduce its fleet from 5x to 3x different cockpit groups, this is very clearly indicated in the graphic:


:bored:

KLM must reduce its fleet from 5x to 3x different cockpit groups. Unless it's a bad idea, or becomes a bad idea later on. Then they would change their policy. To reduce overall cost, improve flexibility, what ever suits them at that moment. Like they have been doing for 100 years.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:44 pm

What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.
 
Armodeen
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:56 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.


KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:42 am

Their -700s and -900s would need to be replaced first. I see the MAX 10 as being most ideal for KLM, with a larger and more flexible J/Y+ that could be adjusted depending on demand. As for the B77E, I see another top-up order for B789s to replace them (albeit 22 fewer seats), along with 8 B788s (now that that has become a simple shrink with more commonality) which would be ideal for the 250-seat market.
 
Flyingsottsman
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:35 am

factsonly wrote:
keesje wrote:



Image


From the looks of it the A321 XLR would perfectly fit in their network strategy for expanding, consolidation, defending that network.


Sorry OP, but you answered your own question.

Did you even read the LEEHAM fleet planning graphic and investor day information??

AF/KLM has announced that KLM must reduce its fleet from 5x to 3x different cockpit groups, this is very clearly indicated in the graphic:

1. Regional fleet = 80-130 seater - current Embraer cockpit
2. European fleet 130-200 seater - current B737 cockpit
3. Long Haul fleet 250-400 seater - current B777/B787 cockpit

The question therefore is not just about the A321XLR, but which AIRCRAFT FAMILY will replace KLM's European fleet.

This is either the A320 or B737 family or possibly something completely NEW altogether.


I don't see anything completely new, they wont touch any Russian built jets, nor would they buy any Chinese manufactured jets and McDonald Douglas don't exist any more, so what would be some thing completely new for KLM or infact any airline these days ?
 
bluecrew
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:59 am

Armodeen wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.


KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.

Yes, easiest if they order the MAX. The differences training for pilots takes a few days, mostly CBT driven. I believe MX is also a CBT-driven differences training too, and many of the parts are common.
There's a cost to introducing a new fleet type which is often ongoing, and is easily avoidable by ordering a similar aircraft. KLM would be silly to jam through a big NEO order unless they get a criminally great rate from Airbus... and Boeing would probably take them to court. You can't order a MAX right now, at least not publically. Nobody wants that, not Boeing nor KLM. Once it gets flying again, wait 2 months, and you will see the orders flow again.
 
76er
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:13 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
As for the B77E, I see another top-up order for B789s to replace them (albeit 22 fewer seats), along with 8 B788s (now that that has become a simple shrink with more commonality) which would be ideal for the 250-seat market.



The 788? Do not see that happening. Let’s face it, the 788 is today’s 762, with yearly orders now in the single digit numbers. With no end in sight regarding the slot fiasco at AMS, KL has no choice but to upgauge.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:29 am

bluecrew wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.


KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.

Yes, easiest if they order the MAX. The differences training for pilots takes a few days, mostly CBT driven. I believe MX is also a CBT-driven differences training too, and many of the parts are common.
There's a cost to introducing a new fleet type which is often ongoing, and is easily avoidable by ordering a similar aircraft. KLM would be silly to jam through a big NEO order unless they get a criminally great rate from Airbus... and Boeing would probably take them to court. You can't order a MAX right now, at least not publically. Nobody wants that, not Boeing nor KLM. Once it gets flying again, wait 2 months, and you will see the orders flow again.


@bluecrew Ordering the MAX would be the easiest option, but since they never ordered the MAX before the crashes it could happen that KLM will choose the A320neo family. And in my opinion, the 737 (even the MAX because it still has a lot of 60s design) is too old, and the 737 MAX is in my opinion the 737 platform stretched too far. The easiest option is the 737 MAX, but the safest and smartest option is the Airbus A320neo family. And it isn’t always safe to do the easiest option. In my opinion, KLM should choose for the A320neo family.
 
bluecrew
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:41 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Armodeen wrote:

KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.

Yes, easiest if they order the MAX. The differences training for pilots takes a few days, mostly CBT driven. I believe MX is also a CBT-driven differences training too, and many of the parts are common.
There's a cost to introducing a new fleet type which is often ongoing, and is easily avoidable by ordering a similar aircraft. KLM would be silly to jam through a big NEO order unless they get a criminally great rate from Airbus... and Boeing would probably take them to court. You can't order a MAX right now, at least not publically. Nobody wants that, not Boeing nor KLM. Once it gets flying again, wait 2 months, and you will see the orders flow again.


@bluecrew Ordering the MAX would be the easiest option, but since they never ordered the MAX before the crashes it could happen that KLM will choose the A320neo family. And in my opinion, the 737 (even the MAX because it still has a lot of 60s design) is too old, and the 737 MAX is in my opinion the 737 platform stretched too far. The easiest option is the 737 MAX, but the safest and smartest option is the Airbus A320neo family.

I'm no fan of the MAX. I think that it's a borderline criminal situation of self-dealing between Boeing, the FAA, and a major US airline that all contributed to the engineering and design fiasco that you see today. And I agree, it's a platform stretched too far. That said, it's mostly safe. Hundreds of MAX aircraft flew thousands of segments without issue, except for two, caused by the same problem. Once the MCAS fiasco is sorted, it will just be an aircraft stretched too far that will do the job "ok."
The marginal costs associated with the operation of a new type would likely outweigh the benefits of a similar aircraft, less training required of all workgroups (pilots, flight attendants, agents, ground crew, handlers, mx, etc.), mx parts, etc.
It's a smart business decision. If there were no business decisions in mind, and I ran KLM, I'd probably choose the A32N series, but... this is reality, there are numbers and logistics to consider.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:14 am

bluecrew wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Yes, easiest if they order the MAX. The differences training for pilots takes a few days, mostly CBT driven. I believe MX is also a CBT-driven differences training too, and many of the parts are common.
There's a cost to introducing a new fleet type which is often ongoing, and is easily avoidable by ordering a similar aircraft. KLM would be silly to jam through a big NEO order unless they get a criminally great rate from Airbus... and Boeing would probably take them to court. You can't order a MAX right now, at least not publically. Nobody wants that, not Boeing nor KLM. Once it gets flying again, wait 2 months, and you will see the orders flow again.


@bluecrew Ordering the MAX would be the easiest option, but since they never ordered the MAX before the crashes it could happen that KLM will choose the A320neo family. And in my opinion, the 737 (even the MAX because it still has a lot of 60s design) is too old, and the 737 MAX is in my opinion the 737 platform stretched too far. The easiest option is the 737 MAX, but the safest and smartest option is the Airbus A320neo family.

I'm no fan of the MAX. I think that it's a borderline criminal situation of self-dealing between Boeing, the FAA, and a major US airline that all contributed to the engineering and design fiasco that you see today. And I agree, it's a platform stretched too far. That said, it's mostly safe. Hundreds of MAX aircraft flew thousands of segments without issue, except for two, caused by the same problem. Once the MCAS fiasco is sorted, it will just be an aircraft stretched too far that will do the job "ok."
The marginal costs associated with the operation of a new type would likely outweigh the benefits of a similar aircraft, less training required of all workgroups (pilots, flight attendants, agents, ground crew, handlers, mx, etc.), mx parts, etc.
It's a smart business decision. If there were no business decisions in mind, and I ran KLM, I'd probably choose the A32N series, but... this is reality, there are numbers and logistics to consider.


I agree. And for any aircraft, doing the job ‘good enough’ or ‘ok’ is unsafe. https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/news/evolution-air-france-klm-fleet Here they talk about Air France, not KLM. Is 2025 the most likely time for KLM to retire their 737s? Ordering the MAX would be a very stupid decision. I always liked KLM, and I still do. They are the best airline I have ever flown, they’re my home carrier. But if they order the MAX and when I need to fly I think I will choose another airline that operates A320s. It’s also good for KLM to do A320s instead of MAX aircraft because all of those A330 pilots and cabin crew can easily convert to the A320. And the A320 is more modern. I think KLM will replace their 737s in 2025, the oldest 737-800 they have will be 25 years old in 2025. And when they replace them, I really hope they will go Airbus.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:18 am

Isn't there the possibility of tariffs the EU can impose on Boeing products due to the latest WTO ruling? In contrast to Airbus that manufactures (FAL) in the USA, Boeing does not have a FAL in the EU. So while the US can only tax WBs and aircraft parts that are shipped into the US, the EU can actually tax finished aircraft. That might increase the price of the MAX really high compared to a NEO.

I still think that KLM will go 737/E295 for their narrow bodies it might be that KLM will just buy used 737s. When the MAX hits the market again next year there might be a lot of relatively cheap second hand 737s up for sale and they can be used till a) the sanctions are gone and b) Boeing has a new better aircraft to offer.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:26 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Isn't there the possibility of tariffs the EU can impose on Boeing products due to the latest WTO ruling? In contrast to Airbus that manufactures (FAL) in the USA, Boeing does not have a FAL in the EU. So while the US can only tax WBs and aircraft parts that are shipped into the US, the EU can actually tax finished aircraft. That might increase the price of the MAX really high compared to a NEO.

I still think that KLM will go 737/E295 for their narrow bodies it might be that KLM will just buy used 737s. When the MAX hits the market again next year there might be a lot of relatively cheap second hand 737s up for sale and they can be used till a) the sanctions are gone and b) Boeing has a new better aircraft to offer.



I agree that the EU should impose tax on Boeing products. Maybe that is a way for KLM to understand that the 737 is too old. And I don’t hate Boeing. I really like the 747. I really like the 777. I really like the 787. I just hate the 737 and I don’t get it why KLM wants to operate an outdated, inefficient aircraft, called the 737.

The NG is not efficient in comparison to the A320neo, I don’t know about 737 MAX efficiency.

KLM’s livery would look beautiful on the A320neo in my opinion.
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
76er
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:29 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
And in my opinion It’s also good for KLM to do A320s instead of MAX aircraft because all of those A330 pilots and cabin crew can easily convert to the A320s.


It does not work that way. A 330 captain at KL will not “downgrade” to the 320 as it would imply a significant paycut. A 330 first officer would only make the switch when he/she would move to the left seat. As for cabin crew, the change from 330 to 320 is the same as going from 777 to 737. Major. Cabin crew have a completely different set of work rules anyway, incomparable with the pilot group.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see the 320 at KL but it is just not going to happen. We are the Dutch, we are cheap. ;)
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:34 am

76er wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
And in my opinion It’s also good for KLM to do A320s instead of MAX aircraft because all of those A330 pilots and cabin crew can easily convert to the A320s.


It does not work that way. A 330 captain at KL will not “downgrade” to the 320 as it would imply a significant paycut. A 330 first officer would only make the switch when he/she would move to the left seat. As for cabin crew, the change from 330 to 320 is the same as going from 777 to 737. Major. Cabin crew have a completely different set of work rules anyway, incomparable with the pilot group.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see the 320 at KL but it is just not going to happen. We are the Dutch, we are cheap. ;)


So if KLM orders the MAX I will only fly on their Embraers and their long-haul fleet for my own safety. I think that passengers will not trust the MAX for at least 5 years after return to service.
 
Jomar777
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:35 am

First of all: This is my personal opinion so please feel free to disagree or comment but not to rubbish it to be nasty about it.
I think KLM is postponing their decision due to MAX issues. Once the Max come back to the air, should it be free of further issues, I think they will order it and that would be the end of it. They might consider the B788 (or the Boeing NMA's for the routes where the MAX10 is not able to cover) but it might be it.
The problem is - although the MAX was originally due to be certified this Q4 - we are in December and so far nothig of it. There's also no guarantees that further issues might crop up (although I hope not...).
Should the MAX hit the buffers again, depending on the time to deal with it, I feel then that the A321XLR could come into play. It would be the only scenario IMHO.
Within KLM's offering, I do not see the A321XLR replacing their 772's and A330s at all due to KLM's present strategy.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 am

Jomar777 wrote:
First of all: This is my personal opinion so please feel free to disagree or comment but not to rubbish it to be nasty about it.
I think KLM is postponing their decision due to MAX issues. Once the Max come back to the air, should it be free of further issues, I think they will order it and that would be the end of it. They might consider the B788 (or the Boeing NMA's for the routes where the MAX10 is not able to cover) but it might be it.
The problem is - although the MAX was originally due to be certified this Q4 - we are in December and so far nothig of it. There's also no guarantees that further issues might crop up (although I hope not...).
Should the MAX hit the buffers again, depending on the time to deal with it, I feel then that the A321XLR could come into play. It would be the only scenario IMHO.
Within KLM's offering, I do not see the A321XLR replacing their 772's and A330s at all due to KLM's present strategy.


In the A330 retirement topic someone said that the A330 retirement is just to simplify their long-haul fleet and does not mean we’ll never get an Airbus NB at KLM.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:40 am

Armodeen wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.


KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.


KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:44 am

VSMUT wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s? Is it a 50% chance for an Airbus NB and a 50% chance for a Boeing NB? As a Dutch Airbus fan I really hope KLM chooses the Airbus A320neo.


KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.


KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:47 am

VSMUT wrote:

KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


I agree with you. AF-KLM definitely sees the advantages IAG has (LH is part of IAG) to operate an A320 at every airline.

Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?[/quote]
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:48 am

From KLM side (and that is mostly because of Schiphol) bigger is better. So In my opinion MAX-9/10 are front runners just from the commonality perspective and easy integration. What I do not understand is why Cityhopper went with the E295. Of course the commonality was there but the E295 is the end of the spectrum. That is it. Nothing bigger possible.

I think due to the limitations at Schiphol the A221/223 at Cityhopper combined with Max 9 and 10s would have made way more sense. Now KLM is almost poised to buy MAX-8 just to fill the hole in capacity between E295 and Max 9/10.

KLM will not fly A221/3 at mainline like DL because DL can not upgauge regional fleets due to scope but KLM can as long as Cityhopper has different aircraft then the parent there is no problem.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:01 am

In my opinion, this is the best KLM fleet, including KLM Cityhopper:

KLC = A220-100

KLM short-medium haul: A320neo and A321neo

KLM long haul: 787-9/10 and 777X-9

In total these are 3 cockpits. KLM wants 3 cockpits, so this is maybe something for them to consider.
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:05 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Armodeen wrote:

KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.


KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.
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Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:11 am

frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


I wasn’t aware IAG would purchase 200 MAX aircraft. I think if KLM wanted the MAX, they would’ve bought it before the crashes. As far as I know, Boeing wants to return the MAX as fast as possible. And from what I’ve heard, Boeing’s rush to get the MAX in service makes things even worse for Boeing.

You said that hardly anyone refuses to fly on the MAX. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but Boeing lost a lot of trust. 350 people died. 350 people. And Boeing keeps producing the MAX, I don’t know why. I have heard that Boeing is very slowly admitting that the MAX is a failure and that they need to stop MAX production.
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:11 am

FluidFlow wrote:
From KLM side (and that is mostly because of Schiphol) bigger is better. So In my opinion MAX-9/10 are front runners just from the commonality perspective and easy integration. What I do not understand is why Cityhopper went with the E295. Of course the commonality was there but the E295 is the end of the spectrum. That is it. Nothing bigger possible.

I think due to the limitations at Schiphol the A221/223 at Cityhopper combined with Max 9 and 10s would have made way more sense. Now KLM is almost poised to buy MAX-8 just to fill the hole in capacity between E295 and Max 9/10.

KLM will not fly A221/3 at mainline like DL because DL can not upgauge regional fleets due to scope but KLM can as long as Cityhopper has different aircraft then the parent there is no problem.

I'm not totally sure Dutch unions would agree with KL operating the A220-300 by Cityhopper. It would seat more passengers than KL mainline's 737-700. Unions were also not amused about KL considering replacing the 737-700s with E2-195s. This was put on hold, now E190s will be replaced.
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frigatebird
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:17 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:

Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


I wasn’t aware IAG would purchase 200 MAX aircraft. I think if KLM wanted the MAX, they would’ve bought it before the crashes. As far as I know, Boeing wants to return the MAX as fast as possible. And from what I’ve heard, Boeing’s rush to get the MAX in service makes things even worse for Boeing.

KLM usually waits until a new aircraft type has proven itself in service. Disadvantage is the competition often has more efficient aircraft for a couple of years. Advantage is, well, look at the MAX ;)

I believe you don't have to be worried about Boeing rushing the MAX to service. It's not up to them. FAA, EASA and other regulators will see to that :yes:
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:18 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Armodeen wrote:

KLM is currently deciding between the MAX, MAX and MAX for their NB replacement. There is almost no chance they will order anything else. They are just waiting for the negative publicity to die down before they order.


KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?


IAG is a different question, they don't seem to focus so much on moving aircraft around between member airlines. Lufthansa on the other hand is clearly moving in that direction.

A unified fleet makes excellent sense for Air France and KLM. Amsterdam is slot restricted right now. That means bigger planes. When more slots become available, they can trade A321s for A320s with Air France and get more frequency.

As for maintenance, KLM already does A320 maintenance. SAS has a contract with KLM to do A320 maintenance.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:19 am

frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


Diversifying the fleet is really important as soon as you hit the critical mass to be able to do so. In general every good managed airline should have at least 2 NB and 2 WB families just to be flexible on the market. For one thing to cover groundings but also to be flexible in purchases and leases.

If you need capacity and you can choose you can always take the cheaper option. A lot of availabe 737s? No problem pilot pool is already there, etc. DL for example has 3 NB families at main line and it works really well. UA and AA have two. If there are cheap second hands available, great you can just buy them as you have the pilots. Play A & B for best prices and you have less troubles with delivery slots.

Problem is KLM is not big enough for two NB types, but AFKLM is. So it is obvious that they split the risk. Same will go for their regionals, every one will have a different type if possible.

IAG will also split, mainline will be Airbus, BA probably split and the LCCs will be 737s. We will see this more and more. LH group will probably go A220A320 families for main line and 737 at the LCC subsidiaries, probably filled with second hand 737 for the moment.

Ryanair will even split. 737s at Ryanair and 320s at Lauda.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:28 am

frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


I wasn’t aware IAG would purchase 200 MAX aircraft. I think if KLM wanted the MAX, they would’ve bought it before the crashes. As far as I know, Boeing wants to return the MAX as fast as possible. And from what I’ve heard, Boeing’s rush to get the MAX in service makes things even worse for Boeing.

KLM usually waits until a new aircraft type has proven itself in service. Disadvantage is the competition often has more efficient aircraft for a couple of years. Advantage is, well, look at the MAX ;)

I believe you don't have to be worried about Boeing rushing the MAX to service. It's not up to them. FAA, EASA and other regulators will see to that :yes:


https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-vervanger-boeing-737-vloot-nog-niet-in-beeld

In the comments section you can clearly see that people want KLM to operate Airbus aircraft. In a lot of YouTube videos you can see people commenting that that they’ll never ever in their entire life fly on a MAX. More than 50% of Americans refuse to fly on the MAX. And a lot of other people refuse to fly on it, not just Americans. Boeing has simply lost my trust.
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1616
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:35 am

frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

KLM is not a standalone company any more. Future aircraft orders will have significant input from the group management. AF-KLM management is not blind to the advantages Lufthansa has with it's latest A320 fleet that is standardized across all airlines.


Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


Well, this one manufacturer-thing hasn't stopped airlines like LH Group, easyJet and Ryanair to focus on one type. So far. I think the IAG order has more to do with aggressive pricing and being a little fed-up with Airbus-delivery issues with their A320neos.

As for KLM, I agree that the E195-E2 order is "strange" as it doesn't give room for further development. On the other hand, this was also about easy integration and availability as they want to use them first to replace their B737-700s and they could do this more quickly with the E195-E2.

The next narrowbody-order for KLM is a group decision. KLM, Transavia and Air France all need NBs. And I could easily see mainline going one type and the LCC (Transavia) going the other, especially now that Transavia France had their growth limit lifted by the unions. This brings some more scale to the discussions with Airbus and Boeing.

But, the MAX-situation hasn't made this easy. It is a topic in the media here often and I can see the headlines from one of our biggest newspapers already ("KLM and Transavia choose deathtrap aircraft" or something) in big bold letters on their frontpage.

Overall, if you expect my bet on this, then I would say, KLM and Transavia B737MAX and Air France Airbus. However, it would not surprise me to see AF and KLM go A320-series and Transavia to the MAX.

Cheers! :wave:
Last edited by LifelinerOne on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Airbusfan29
Posts: 71
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:35 am

VSMUT wrote:

A unified fleet makes excellent sense for Air France and KLM. Amsterdam is slot restricted right now. That means bigger planes. When more slots become available, they can trade A321s for A320s with Air France and get more frequency.

As for maintenance, KLM already does A320 maintenance. SAS has a contract with KLM to do A320 maintenance.


I totally agree. What do you mean with KLM trading A321s for A320s with Air France and getting more frequency? KLM doesn’t have Airbus NBs, so I don’t understand how KLM could trade an A321 for an A320. KLM already does A320 maintenance as you said, so from a maintenance point of view, KLM can easily operate A320s.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:38 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:

Just a question: when you look at IAG you see that almost all of the airlines operate A320s. Is it something for AF-KLM to have A320s at AF and have A320s at KLM?

You are aware IAG signed a LOI this year to purchase 200 737MAX aircraft? It's not an order yet of course, but when asked about it Willie Walsh said they didn't want to be dependent on one manufacturer. AF-KL is no different. And it's very sensible, if one aircraft family is affected by something that serious as a grounding, not every airline of the group is hit. WN is now considering to leave their one aircraft family strategy. Airlines like AA and TK are not as seriously hit by the MAX grounding.

I respect you're hesitant about flying on a MAX in the future. There are more members on this forum feeling the same. Heck, even I said I would avoid the MAX whenever possible after the ET crash. Reality is, hardly anyone refused to fly on the MAX after the ET crash and before the grounding. When the grounding is lifted, people will board it, most people won't even notice.


Well, this one manufacturer-thing hasn't stopped airlines like LH Group, easyJet and Ryanair to focus on one type. So far. I think the IAG order has more to do with aggressive pricing and being a little fed-up with Airbus-delivery issues with their A320neos.

As for KLM, I agree that the E195-E2 order is "strange" as it doesn't give room for further development. On the other hand, this was also about easy integration and availability as they want to use them first to replace their B737-700s and they could do this more quickly with the E195-E2.

The next narrowbody-order for KLM is a group decision. KLM, Transavia and Air France all need NBs. And I could easily see mainline going one type and the LCC (Transavia) going the other, especially now that Transavia France had their growth limit lifted by the unions. This brings some more scale to the discussions with Airbus and Boeing.

But, the MAX-situation hasn't made this easy. It is a topic in the media here often and I can see the headlines from one of our biggest newspapers already ("KLM and Transavia choose deathtrap aircraft" or something) in big bold letters on their frontpage.

Overall, if you expect my bet on this, then I would say, KLM and Transavia B737MAX and Air France Airbus. However, it would not surprise me to see AF and KLM go A320-series and Transavia to the MAX.

Cheers! :wave:


Since Transavia only wants to operate Boeing aircraft the A320 for KLM and AF and the MAX for HV seems great!

KLM and AF with the A320 and HV with the MAX is the way to go.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:42 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
What do you mean with KLM trading A321s for A320s with Air France and getting more frequency? KLM doesn’t have Airbus NBs, so I don’t understand how KLM could trade an A321 for an A320. KLM already does A320 maintenance as you said, so from a maintenance point of view, KLM can easily operate A320s.


It is a hypothetical scenario. Amsterdam is slot restricted. With a unified fleet, they can swap planes with Air France. If they go for the 737MAX, they are stuck with whatever they order, regardless of how the situation in Amsterdam changes.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:43 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:

I wasn’t aware IAG would purchase 200 MAX aircraft. I think if KLM wanted the MAX, they would’ve bought it before the crashes. As far as I know, Boeing wants to return the MAX as fast as possible. And from what I’ve heard, Boeing’s rush to get the MAX in service makes things even worse for Boeing.

KLM usually waits until a new aircraft type has proven itself in service. Disadvantage is the competition often has more efficient aircraft for a couple of years. Advantage is, well, look at the MAX ;)

I believe you don't have to be worried about Boeing rushing the MAX to service. It's not up to them. FAA, EASA and other regulators will see to that :yes:


https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-vervanger-boeing-737-vloot-nog-niet-in-beeld

In the comments section you can clearly see that people want KLM to operate Airbus aircraft. In a lot of YouTube videos you can see people commenting that that they’ll never ever in their entire life fly on a MAX. More than 50% of Americans refuse to fly on the MAX. And a lot of other people refuse to fly on it, not just Americans. Boeing has simply lost my trust.


Airbusfan29, I don't want to further discuss the MAX grounding in this thread, we have another dedicated thread about it. Kind request to express your thoughts there.
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Airbusfan29
Posts: 71
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:54 am

What is the most likely time frame for KLM to replace their 737s?
 
Airbusfan29
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:55 am

frigatebird wrote:

Airbusfan29, I don't want to further discuss the MAX grounding in this thread, we have another dedicated thread about it. Kind request to express your thoughts there.


Okay, I’ll post the grounding stuff in the grounding topic.
 
76er
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:04 am

The flying public in general has no clue whatsoever what type of airplane they are flying on. I expect Boeing to drop the MAX name in the future and just call it the 737-8 etc. Problem solved. As aviation nerds we tend to overestimate what the general public really knows about the industry. Practically nothing.
As far as fleet planning goes, I was under the impression that KL can still make many of its own decisions. Just look at the recent E2 deal.
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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos