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Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:15 am

76er wrote:
The flying public in general has no clue whatsoever what type of airplane they are flying on. I expect Boeing to drop the MAX name in the future and just call it the 737-8 etc. Problem solved. As aviation nerds we tend to overestimate what the general public really knows about the industry. Practically nothing.
As far as fleet planning goes, I was under the impression that KL can still make many of its own decisions. Just look at the recent E2 deal.


But the E2 deal was for KLC. The Group will decide what NB replacement there will be.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:50 am

FluidFlow wrote:

IAG will also split, mainline will be Airbus, BA probably split and the LCCs will be 737s. We will see this more and more. LH group will probably go A220A320 families for main line and 737 at the LCC subsidiaries, probably filled with second hand 737 for the moment.

Ryanair will even split. 737s at Ryanair and 320s at Lauda.


I also see this happening at AF-KL. AF and KLM will use the A320neo family, and HV will use 737 MAX aircraft.
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:52 am

76er wrote:
The flying public in general has no clue whatsoever what type of airplane they are flying on. I expect Boeing to drop the MAX name in the future and just call it the 737-8 etc. Problem solved. As aviation nerds we tend to overestimate what the general public really knows about the industry. Practically nothing.
As far as fleet planning goes, I was under the impression that KL can still make many of its own decisions. Just look at the recent E2 deal.


Except that the (social) media nowadays will keep reminding us about the plane and it's issues and will do so for years to come. Even after declared safe; every returned plane for any reason will be highlighted by them and refer to the accidents. That's the reality of the media we have today.

I for one do not expect that a lot of people will forget it. Not representative at all, but at my company we fly a lot to our sites across the world. Our booking-system shows a MAX-warning (that it's grounded) and there were even warnings about not to book Norwegian (due to financial issues, but this one has just been withdrawn) and even plane types. We are not the only company using this tool.

Does the average Joe knows about the MAX and care about it when flying to Mallorca? Maybe not. Hence the MAX at Transavia and why, I think, IAG is planning on putting them to (also and mainly) use in Vueling and LEVEL.

The business travellers where KLM and Air France are partly dependent on? If they are all using these booking systems making them aware of things, I am not so sure...

As for fleet planning; both Air France and KLM have a say in the selection; but the final decision sits at the Group-level.

Cheers! :wave:
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:55 am

LifelinerOne wrote:
76er wrote:
The flying public in general has no clue whatsoever what type of airplane they are flying on. I expect Boeing to drop the MAX name in the future and just call it the 737-8 etc. Problem solved. As aviation nerds we tend to overestimate what the general public really knows about the industry. Practically nothing.
As far as fleet planning goes, I was under the impression that KL can still make many of its own decisions. Just look at the recent E2 deal.


Except that the (social) media nowadays will keep reminding us about the plane and it's issues and will do so for years to come. Even after declared safe; every returned plane for any reason will be highlighted by them and refer to the accidents. That's the reality of the media we have today.

I for one do not expect that a lot of people will forget it. Not representative at all, but at my company we fly a lot to our sites across the world. Our booking-system shows a MAX-warning (that it's grounded) and there were even warnings about not to book Norwegian (due to financial issues, but this one has just been withdrawn) and even plane types. We are not the only company using this tool.

Does the average Joe knows about the MAX and care about it when flying to Mallorca? Maybe not. Hence the MAX at Transavia and why, I think, IAG is planning on putting them to (also and mainly) use in Vueling and LEVEL.

The business travellers where KLM and Air France are partly dependent on? If they are all using these booking systems making them aware of things, I am not so sure...

As for fleet planning; both Air France and KLM have a say in the selection; but the final decision sits at the Group-level.

Cheers! :wave:


Does Transavia have anything to say in the fleet selection?
 
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Polot
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What do you mean with KLM trading A321s for A320s with Air France and getting more frequency? KLM doesn’t have Airbus NBs, so I don’t understand how KLM could trade an A321 for an A320. KLM already does A320 maintenance as you said, so from a maintenance point of view, KLM can easily operate A320s.


It is a hypothetical scenario. Amsterdam is slot restricted. With a unified fleet, they can swap planes with Air France. If they go for the 737MAX, they are stuck with whatever they order, regardless of how the situation in Amsterdam changes.

AMS being slot restricted and the ability to swap planes with AF are two totally unconnected things. How does swapping with AF help with the slot situation? If KL needs bigger Maxes because of slot restrictions they can order bigger Maxes. If they don’t want their Max8 or whatever (the smallest one they would relatistically operate) they can give it to HV. Do you think AF/KL are going to shrink AF by giving KL AF narrow bodies? Do you think they don’t know about AMS’s current slot situation? That will be factored into whatever they choose to select.

There is also a lot of overestimating the amount of “swapping” going on at LH group too. The only “swapping” that has occurred is LH giving older A320s to Germanwings/Eurowings (and that was all ~5+ years ago). The group is not swapping A320s all around, I don’t know where that notion came from.
 
FrancisBegbie
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:

It is a hypothetical scenario. Amsterdam is slot restricted. With a unified fleet, they can swap planes with Air France. If they go for the 737MAX, they are stuck with whatever they order, regardless of how the situation in Amsterdam changes.


In my chrystal ball, a white plane moved from CDG to AMS to be painted blue and used by KLM is followed by all the remaining white planes in CDG staying on the ground....
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Currently the 737-700 is being retired in favour of the E195-E2. That gives me the feeling KLM will start retiring their 737-800 in favour of the A320neo in about 2 to 4 years from now.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:16 pm

This is my opinion only, don’t call me an idiot for having my own opinion, but I don’t think that will happen because the people at the Airliners.net forum are really nice people :)


Switching from Boeing to Airbus in the short-medium haul routes is comparable to when KLM Cityhopper switched from Fokker to Embraer. It’s not as easy as buying a MAX instead of a neo, but I feel KLM needs the A320neo. Why? Because the 737 is really old and the MAX is the 737 platform stretched too far. And if KLM would buy the MAX, they would get bad feedback from the media.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:30 pm

KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:48 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:51 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
Switching from Boeing to Airbus in the short-medium haul routes is comparable to when KLM Cityhopper switched from Fokker to Embraer.

It is not comparable at all. Fokker went bust in 1996. KLM Cityhopper has no choice but to eventually switch to another company for products. Note, however, how KLM Cityhopper also stuck with the Embraer and selected the E2, instead of purchasing A220s (specifically the -100) like AF did. At this time Boeing and the 737 are still available for purchase.
 
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Polot
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is (mostly) French, ([url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM[/url]) and the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.

You yourself said earlier in this thread that you think AF/KLM will use the Neo and HV the Max. You are aware Transavia is part of the AF/KLM group through KLM right? Or do you seriously believe KLM has the autonomy to select aircraft for HV but not to select aircraft for themselves?
 
JonesNL
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:01 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


The group has not so much say as you think. The group wanted to fire the CEO of KLM but all employees stood up for him. And up until now Airfrance's only commandment in fleet decision was that KLM should be all Boeing and AF all Airbus and as such they switched their orders for the A350(to AF) and 787(to KLM). Everything points at Max, although I would like them to go A32x.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:08 pm

Polot wrote:
You yourself said earlier in this thread that you think AF/KLM will use the Neo and HV the Max. You are aware Transavia is part of the AF/KLM group through KLM right?


Yes, and what I meant is that at IAG (do I compare this too much with IAG?) the legacy carriers operate the A320 and that LC carriers operate the 737. Transavia apparently only wants to use Boeing aircraft. KLM never said they only want to use Boeing aircraft. And KLM really needs a modern short-medium haul airliner, and I think the A320neo is the best option, because of its modernness. In a group, it is important that airlines have similar aircraft types, so the Neo for AF and KLM and the Max for HV since HV does not want to operate Airbus aircraft.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:12 pm

JonesNL wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


The group has not so much say as you think. The group wanted to fire the CEO of KLM but all employees stood up for him. And up until now Airfrance's only commandment in fleet decision was that KLM should be all Boeing and AF all Airbus and as such they switched their orders for the A350(to AF) and 787(to KLM). Everything points at Max, although I would like them to go A32x.


@JonesNL I agree. But all Boeing for KLM and all Airbus for AF doesn’t sound good. I think the group should be all Airbus. Does KLM hate Airbus?
 
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xaapb
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:13 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


If I recall correctly the "group" said AF is going to operate only 9 787-9 as the rest of the order is being transfer to KL and KL Airbus A350 order is being transfer to AF. So I don't see why the group is going to go for the Airbus as you claim.
Jorge Meneses
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:18 pm

xaapb wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


If I recall correctly the "group" said AF is going to operate only 9 787-9 as the rest of the order is being transfer to KL and KL Airbus A350 order is being transfer to AF. So I don't see why the group is going to go for the Airbus as you claim.


I think they’ll go Airbus because of the crashes, but hopefully someday KLM will have a more modern NB than the 737. We just need to wait for KLM for them to say something.
 
JonesNL
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:19 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:

I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


The group has not so much say as you think. The group wanted to fire the CEO of KLM but all employees stood up for him. And up until now Airfrance's only commandment in fleet decision was that KLM should be all Boeing and AF all Airbus and as such they switched their orders for the A350(to AF) and 787(to KLM). Everything points at Max, although I would like them to go A32x.


@JonesNL I agree. But all Boeing for KLM and all Airbus for AF doesn’t sound good. I think the group should be all Airbus. Does KLM hate Airbus?


No, they don't love or hate Boeing either. It's just cold hard business. After the ungrounding they probably can get a much sweeter deal at Boeing than at Airbus with slots way sooner than Airbus can dream of...
 
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Polot
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
In a group, it is important that airlines have similar aircraft types, so the Neo for AF and KLM and the Max for HV since HV does not want to operate Airbus aircraft.

I can easily rewrite this sentence to say:

In a group, it is important that airlines have similar aircraft types, so the Max for KLM and HV and the Neo for AF since AF does not want to operate Boeing aircraft

without contradicting your arguments at all.
 
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EK2
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
xaapb wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:

I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


If I recall correctly the "group" said AF is going to operate only 9 787-9 as the rest of the order is being transfer to KL and KL Airbus A350 order is being transfer to AF. So I don't see why the group is going to go for the Airbus as you claim.


I think they’ll go Airbus because of the crashes, but hopefully someday KLM will have a more modern NB than the 737. We just need to wait for KLM for them to say something.


And herin is the problem with this site and a true indicator of what it has become. Immature , childish AvB comments . I used to love reading through the forum but it has just desended into a quagmire of petulance and "my Dad' bigger than your Dad" rows.
When all is said and done, more often than not, more is ever said than done
 
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frigatebird
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:46 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
all Boeing for KLM and all Airbus for AF doesn’t sound good. I think the group should be all Airbus. Does KLM hate Airbus?


You are totally entitled to have your opinion here. And have a preference for a certain manufacturer. No problem with that. But your remark above sounds a bit silly, bordering childishness.

JonesNL's answer sums it all up:
JonesNL wrote:
No, they don't love or hate Boeing either. It's just cold hard business...
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Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:54 pm

If they order the Max, I won’t board it. I will avoid the Max as much as possible. The Max just uses too old technology, and KLM always had a modern WB fleet (look at the 787), but their NB fleet is too old. KLM is, as far as I know, the only legacy carrier in Europe that uses 737s. All other legacy carriers in Europe that I know of use A320s. I don’t get it why KLM doesn’t want to use any Airbus. In my opinion Airbus aircraft are more modern. If KLM had a reason to operate 737s instead of A320s, I would understand it.
Last edited by Airbusfan29 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bostrom
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:57 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
I'm flying KLM quite frequently on European destinations, mainly to Scandinavia; I am on one of their B737s (or Embraers) at least once a month. And while I am pretty phlegmatic, I must admit that I'm not really looking forward to get onto a MAX anytime soon. Yes, I trust that when KL and HV receive their MAXes, the plane will have flown millions of miles with other airlines without problems, but today, I would be inclined to pass my home carrier and buy a ticket on a SAS A320 instead (even if that means you have to pay for your cup of coffee - yes, I am still a Dutchman ;) ).


I don't mean to derail the thread, but there is free tea and coffee on all SAS flights! People in the Nordics drink even more coffee than the Dutch… :)
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:58 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense and is just wrong. The Group doesn't prefer Airbus. Air France is one of the biggest customers for the B777... And I am of the opinion that Air France would have also acquired the A220 if it still was the C-Series from Bombardier. It was just the best option to replace their A318s and A319s. There is no alternative available from either manufacturer that suited that need.

Before the MAX-crash, AF-KLM said they would decide in October this year. Now everything is open due this. If they were that keen on Airbus, they would have pulled the trigger already. They are waiting for a reason.

As for the seperate airlines within the Group having a say in their plane-needs; all airlines are making their own analysis of their needs and projections for the future. They then submit this to the Group-fleet planning level where it get's rehashed and this team will see what type of airplane fits these needs and where there are overlapping requirements or where synergies are to be made. After this, this Fleet Planning Team will submit a proposal to the board of the Group. That's how I understood the process from my contacts in the airline. But make no mistake, fleet decisions are being made on a Group-level.

Cheers! :wave:
Last edited by LifelinerOne on Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Bostrom
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:59 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
KLM is, as far as I know, the only legacy carrier in Europe that uses 737s. All other legacy carriers in Europe that I know of use A320s. I don’t get it why KLM doesn’t want to use any Airbus. In my opinion Airbus aircraft are more modern.


LOT and Icelandair uses 737s as well, and SAS at the moment (although they are converting to an all Airbus fleet).
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:02 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense and is just wrong. The Group doesn't prefer Airbus. Air France is one of the biggest customers for the B777... And I am of the opinion that Air France would have also acquired the A220 if it still was the C-Series from Bombardier. It was just the best option to replace their A318s and A319s. There is no alternative available from either manufacturer that suited that need.

Before the MAX-crash, AF-KLM said they would decide in October this year. Now everything is open due this. If they were that keen on Airbus, they would have pulled the trigger already. They are waiting for a reason.

As for the seperate airlines within the Group having a say in their plane-needs; all airlines are making their own analysis of their needs and projections for the future. They then submit this to the Group-fleet planning level where it get's rehashed and this team will see what type of airplane fits these needs and where there are overlapping requirements or where synergies are to be made. After this, this Fleet Planning Team will submit a proposal to the board of the Group. That's how I understood the process from my contacts in the airline. But make no mistake, fleet decisions are being made on a Group-level.

Cheers! :wave:


Thanks, now I finally understand how fleet decisions are made. Will AF-KLM tell us the plans when the Max problems are over? That would seem likely. But I am still against the Max. Since the crashes happened, it’s hard to tell what’s going to happen. But operating an aircraft without FBW, without flight envelope protections, and one that has too big engines for its design - and not to forget MCAS - it makes 50% sense for KLM to operate the Max, but it doesn’t make sense for 50% because of all the problems I described.
 
Jetty
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Re: KLM 737 replacement options, A321XLR inevitable?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:49 pm

Flyingsottsman wrote:
I don't see anything completely new, they wont touch any Russian built jets, nor would they buy any Chinese manufactured jets and McDonald Douglas don't exist any more, so what would be some thing completely new for KLM or infact any airline these days ?

I see a possibility for a completely new Boeing plane. KL’s 737’s are relatively young, they have in-house maintenance and are one of the only big airlines not to have ordered a last generation narrow-body. So if there is an airline skipping a generation and going with a new Boeing narrowbody instead it would be KL.

All dependent on how the MAX saga pans out and if Boeing decides to go for the NSA ofc.
 
Jetty
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:54 pm

Polot wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Airbusfan29 wrote:
What do you mean with KLM trading A321s for A320s with Air France and getting more frequency? KLM doesn’t have Airbus NBs, so I don’t understand how KLM could trade an A321 for an A320. KLM already does A320 maintenance as you said, so from a maintenance point of view, KLM can easily operate A320s.


It is a hypothetical scenario. Amsterdam is slot restricted. With a unified fleet, they can swap planes with Air France. If they go for the 737MAX, they are stuck with whatever they order, regardless of how the situation in Amsterdam changes.

AMS being slot restricted and the ability to swap planes with AF are two totally unconnected things. How does swapping with AF help with the slot situation? If KL needs bigger Maxes because of slot restrictions they can order bigger Maxes. If they don’t want their Max8 or whatever (the smallest one they would relatistically operate) they can give it to HV. Do you think AF/KL are going to shrink AF by giving KL AF narrow bodies? Do you think they don’t know about AMS’s current slot situation? That will be factored into whatever they choose to select.

They know about AMS current slot situation indeed, but they don’t know what AMS’s future slot situation will be. That’s where a swap with AF might be practical: no extra slots favours bigger planes for KL while extra slots would favor more frequencies with smaller planes.
 
inkjet7
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:57 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
Currently the 737-700 is being retired in favour of the E195-E2. That gives me the feeling KLM will start retiring their 737-800 in favour of the A320neo in about 2 to 4 years from now.

The E195's are for KL-C. Only KLM operates 737-700's.
 
DALCE
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:09 pm

This topic is really about dropping opinions, both the MAX and the NEO have some arguments in favor of either one. My bet will be KL skipping the MAX generation completely and become early adaptor if not launch carrier for the new yet-to-be-announced next gen Boeing NB. Their current 737 fleet can easily soldier on for another decade, KLM has a very decent MX record and really take care of their planes. I could even see a 1-1 replacement with newer pre-owned NG frames if really needed ( which I do doubt though )
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Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:14 pm

DALCE wrote:
This topic is really about dropping opinions, both the MAX and the NEO have some arguments in favor of either one. My bet will be KL skipping the MAX generation completely and become early adaptor if not launch carrier for the new yet-to-be-announced next gen Boeing NB. Their current 737 fleet can easily soldier on for another decade, KLM has a very decent MX record and really take care of their planes. I could even see a 1-1 replacement with newer pre-owned NG frames if really needed ( which I do doubt though )


That sounds great! From what I've read the Boeing FSA will be announced in 2030.
 
Scorpio
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:15 pm

EK2 wrote:
And herin is the problem with this site and a true indicator of what it has become. Immature , childish AvB comments . I used to love reading through the forum but it has just desended into a quagmire of petulance and "my Dad' bigger than your Dad" rows.

Take it from someone who's been here for 20 years: there aren't any more A vs B wars here today than there were three years ago. Or five, ten or fifteen years ago. In fact, I have the feeling the A v B wars of today pale in comparison to the ones held here in the early 2000s and late 90s.

There are two constants on a.net:
-there will be A v B discussion, some of it childish fanboyism;
-there will be people claiming the A v B wars have gotten more childish than they were x years (usually 2 or 3) ago, when they first joined. They haven't.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
DALCE wrote:
This topic is really about dropping opinions, both the MAX and the NEO have some arguments in favor of either one. My bet will be KL skipping the MAX generation completely and become early adaptor if not launch carrier for the new yet-to-be-announced next gen Boeing NB. Their current 737 fleet can easily soldier on for another decade, KLM has a very decent MX record and really take care of their planes. I could even see a 1-1 replacement with newer pre-owned NG frames if really needed ( which I do doubt though )


That sounds great! From what I've read the Boeing FSA will be announced in 2030.

Nothing is set in stone considering the FSA, Boeing has not made any public announcement about is and the most recent 'more serious' rumors told us that it could be much earlier then that date. We simply don't know right now if and when it will be launched.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:18 pm

I don't know what KLM will replace the NG with but they need to be replaced before 2050 in my opinion. KLM, please, do NOT order the Max!
 
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EK2
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:32 pm

Scorpio wrote:
EK2 wrote:
And herin is the problem with this site and a true indicator of what it has become. Immature , childish AvB comments . I used to love reading through the forum but it has just desended into a quagmire of petulance and "my Dad' bigger than your Dad" rows.

Take it from someone who's been here for 20 years: there aren't any more A vs B wars here today than there were three years ago. Or five, ten or fifteen years ago. In fact, I have the feeling the A v B wars of today pale in comparison to the ones held here in the early 2000s and late 90s.

There are two constants on a.net:
-there will be A v B discussion, some of it childish fanboyism;
-there will be people claiming the A v B wars have gotten more childish than they were x years (usually 2 or 3) ago, when they first joined. They haven't.


Do you really think so ? I dont mean that with any sarcasm it's a genuine question. I know it boils down to personal opinion but I'm convinced it's worse. Admittedly I only came back on the site 3 years ago but was on here previously and have followed the site for 14 or 15 years so nowhere near as long as you but I'm sure it's got worse. Maybe I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses but I recall it being a decent factual site. Yes there was a bit of immaturity and silliness but I thought there was much more respectful and knowledgable posts. There are some really informed people on here but it seems their voices are drowned out by the stupidity. Maybe I'm just a miserable old fart.
When all is said and done, more often than not, more is ever said than done
 
airbuster
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:36 pm

Well I for one would be content with either KLM ordering the 320neo series or waiting for a proper NSA by Boeing. I have followed Leeham news’s in depth corners on MCAS. It really is an outdated way of patching up an old design. We live in the FBW age now. Please people stop believing in the ruggedness of the 737. To name a few:
It doesn’t have FBW, it doesn’t have electronic warning and crew alerting, its cockpit is totally outdated, its gear is too short and it flies aerodynamically too high speeds to compensate for its length. It’s a miracle that it actually works ok most of the time. Max 1.0 or 2.0 the above stays. And it’s not the safety we want in this day and age.

Btw I have flown the 737 and A330 at KLM. I would be delighted if the airline would order anything except the max. There is no word about it in the gossips on the flight deck.
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Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:14 pm

airbuster wrote:
Well I for one would be content with either KLM ordering the 320neo series or waiting for a proper NSA by Boeing. I have followed Leeham news’s in depth corners on MCAS. It really is an outdated way of patching up an old design. We live in the FBW age now. Please people stop believing in the ruggedness of the 737. To name a few:
It doesn’t have FBW, it doesn’t have electronic warning and crew alerting, its cockpit is totally outdated, its gear is too short and it flies aerodynamically too high speeds to compensate for its length. It’s a miracle that it actually works ok most of the time. Max 1.0 or 2.0 the above stays. And it’s not the safety we want in this day and age.

Btw I have flown the 737 and A330 at KLM. I would be delighted if the airline would order anything except the max. There is no word about it in the gossips on the flight deck.


I totally agree. It is the A320neo or the NSA. I would go for the A320neo. The 737 MAX is not an option for KLM.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:49 am

Airbusfan29 wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
KL will order 737 MAX to replace the NGs.

Almost no possibility for an A220/320 series at all. Wont happen. They are as loyal to the 737 as WN and FR are.

A320NEO would do the job, and certainly you could make a case for A321/A321XLR in the KL blue but wont happen. They'll likely be into the new MOM / 797 whenever Boeing release it.


I strongly disagree with your comment. I am 90% certain KLM will get the neo because the Group will decide, and the Group prefers Airbus. The Group is mostly French: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France–KLM

And the French prefer Airbus. Air France and KLM can say whatever they want, but the Group will make the final decision.


Doesn't work like that mate. "the French prefer Airbus" is a rather blanket statement and is factually wrong. Its like saying "Americans prefer Boeing" - that's factually wrong too.

In this day and age, politics play a much smaller role in selection of aircraft than they used to. The fact is KL are as staunch a Boeing airline as you'll ever find. Its nothing to do with flag waving and all that silliness that infests this site - its just practicality.

Their training and culture is focused on the Boeing. Not because the Boeing is better (we've established on this site ad nauseum that the two OEMs are very finely matched) but because that's their culture. All their training Captains, procedures and infrastructure is set up to support Boeing aircraft. The crews are trained to excellence on the Boeing. Their pilots have been quite vocal in saying that they prefer Boeing,. That's not to diminish the Airbus, its just their preference. the Dutch like to stick to what they know, tradition and heritage mean a lot to them and there is a degree of (almost) arrogance too - they prefer the Boeing because they are very very good at operating them, they have one of the best safety records in the world and they do a lot of other airlines' MX work on their Boeings too. They are a Boeing centre of excellence, they are one of the first people Boeing speak to when they are designing new airframes or variants. They are (rightly) extremely proud of this. Its just how they roll. They got good use out of the A330s and A310s before that but were never and have never been an Airbus centre of excellence in the same way they are with Boeing. Their charter arm flies the 737, heck even the King and Queen royal flight / Govt flight is a 737 now.

The point is not really that they are closed to the idea of operating Airbuses (they have and still do) but that there are savings to be made in having only three very similar type ratings in your fleet, all your engines from GE and all your training and support, infrastructure, parts, computer systems etc from one OEM. The A330 was a great plane for them but now the 787 does what they can do better and cheaper so that's why they are going. Likewise then, the 737MAX can do anything the NEO can do (apart from the XLR A321....) but cheaper. Why would they change to Airbus? Its not like Airbus are going to give them a sweetheart deal to bring them in by selling them at a loss to make the financial transaction look worthwhile - this is their cashcow, they have no need to offer those kind of discounts when space on the line is at a premium.

The MAX will come back in a few months or latest by Summer next year and be fully worked out. The issues will be forgotten as they always are - its a very fine plane indeed and a good competitive match for the NEO, Boeing will sort it. I have absolute faith. It may be that KL will wait a couple of years before pressing the button on a MAX order, or as DALCE has stated above, be the first adopters of their new clean sheet NB which will come sooner than people think I suspect, could be launched quite soon.

KLM wont get the NEO, neither will Transavia. AF and its subsidiaries will get a mix of A32XNEO and A220 and they'll do great with them. Longer term we may even see some of the AF 77Ws be replaced with A35Ks or 779Xs - the French in as far as AF is typical, like both Boeing and Airbus and have done since the first Airbuses came in.
 
76er
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:37 am

Well said. Over the past decades KL has flown their aircraft to the max. Pretty much the last airline to phase out the passenger MD11, same thing for the 747. No surprise if the same happens with the 737NG. Being used on relatively short sectors (I guess AMS-IST is their longest flight) fuel economy would not have the highest priority. Low capital cost should offset most of the higher fuel bill. KL is known to be a savvy buyer. End of production 738s, fire sale 77Ws and the 332MRTT prototype come to mind. The MAX is pretty much a given, but when? When they are at their cheapest. Which will probably be around the time Boeing launches the NSA. ;)
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:07 am

I don’t want to go off topic, but if you ask me, Boeing uses old technology. Their FBW is not as good as the Airbus one in my opinion. So I think we just need to wait for the FSA - and we just need to hope it will be revolutionary like the A320 was in the 80s, and like the 737 was in the 60s. Hopefully the FSA will have the best FBW out there, and a takeover push button, and a side stick. But that’s for another topic.
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:00 pm

As I wrote before, I fly on KL 737s quite frequently, mainly to Scandinavia, but also to Italy, Austria and Spain. Of all those dozens of flights I had on them, I remember only one or two that were not absolutely cram-full. Boarding usually takes ages, always the same hassle with all those passengers' cabin luggage that doesn't fit into the overhead lockers, with KL staff constantly begging for volunteers to have their trolleys checked in as belly luggage at the last moment. Every time the plane is completely packed. So I could well imagine KL looking for something bigger as their 737NG replacement, certainly now that AMS is (and will remain) slot-restricted. The MAX10 would fit that bill (but the A321N does so, too, and frankly I would prefer that). By the way, I have been wondering for some time why KL only has five B739s. They could easily use more, I think. They use their 739 to TLV which I think is their furthest 737 destination, so range wouldn't be an issue.
 
IWMBH
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:44 pm

I am curious what KL is going to do now Boeing is probably shutting down the production line of the MAX. The backlog of the MAX isn't becoming any shorter and no one knows when the line is back at full throttle. I don't know their fleet plans but with their oldest 737 22th birthday just around the corner decision time is approaching. AF/KL seems to be the only large airline group that didn't order any NEO's or MAXes.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:35 pm

First of all, happy new year!

Air France-KLM needs to replace their NB fleet. Air France will go for the Airbus in my opinion, and I think KLM will also use the A320neo. Why? Because the 737 design is 50 years old, and I don’t think another 30 years of 737 investment is a great idea.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/news/ai ... -structure

It states that Air France-KLM will: Simplify key Group operational processes in the following areas: fleet and network strategy, commercial and alliances strategy, human resources, purchasing, digital and data management.

The “simplify fleet strategy” thing seemed really interesting, because this could mean Air France-KLM will only order Airbus NBs. It’s easier to get lower prices at Airbus. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396161. It was this post by kevin5345179:

based on the mega order all the carriers under AFKL

At the end of 2018 Air France-KLM will select its medium-haul fleet replacement for Air France, HOP!, KLM and Transavia, operating 120 Boeing 737 NG, 118 Airbus A320ceo family, 64 Embraer E-Jets, 25 Bombardier CRJ700 series and 13 Embraer 145.

Just can't see how the B737 will be on the plate:
1. AFKLM still have ~18% own by French state
2. Partnership from Airbus+Cseries can fulfill all the need in 1 stop and easier to negotiate better price
3. Embraer + Boeing probably won't have agreement on JV until next year due to election

His 2nd point is true. And another thing I wanted to mention that I read in the same topic: baggage loaders at EHAM are unhappy with their work, so using the A320neo is better because it supports containers. The A320neo has more cargo space if I’m correct. I don’t see KLM ordering the 737 MAX. Back in the 80s, KLM was very loyal to Douglas. KLM didn’t choose the MD-80, they chose the 737 because it had proven itself. KLM rejected the A320, it was offered to them, but KLM rejected it because they didn’t know the A320 would be a success. If you look at IB, LH, BA, EI, easyJet (I don’t know their IATA code), SK, they all ordered 737s or MD-80s in the 80s. At their next fleet renewal they went Airbus. I see a real advantage if KLM goes Airbus because the Airbus is more modern, it’s more comfortable, it’s easier to fly, it’s more efficient, and there are more reasons. KLM even has an A320 simulator at their KLM Aeroclub in Lelystad! In the 80s, they went from Douglas to Boeing. It looks like they will go from Boeing to Airbus. It will simplify the AF-KLM fleet strategy, and AF-KLM wants it to happen. Why buy Boeing and Airbus if it’s easier and better to buy Airbus? I see KLM operating the A320neo and A321neo. I don’t think the MAX is the best choice. Since Ben Smith wants to simplify things, the chance keeps getting bigger and bigger that KLM will use A320neo aircraft. SK is not a fan of fleet commonality, and they had an even bigger NG fleet than KLM has, but it hasn’t stopped them from switching to the A320neo. I still see KLM operating Boeings, but only for long-haul. Did AF-KLM already place an order? They would do it in 2018, they didn’t, they didn’t do it in 2019, but hopefully they will this year.

Also the A320neo family has more space for the overhead lockers, that’s really something KLM needs in my opinion.
 
Airbusfan29
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:36 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I am curious what KL is going to do now Boeing is probably shutting down the production line of the MAX. The backlog of the MAX isn't becoming any shorter and no one knows when the line is back at full throttle. I don't know their fleet plans but with their oldest 737 22th birthday just around the corner decision time is approaching. AF/KL seems to be the only large airline group that didn't order any NEO's or MAXes.


What is a backlog?
 
chiad
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:57 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I am curious what KL is going to do now Boeing is probably shutting down the production line of the MAX. The backlog of the MAX isn't becoming any shorter and no one knows when the line is back at full throttle. I don't know their fleet plans but with their oldest 737 22th birthday just around the corner decision time is approaching. AF/KL seems to be the only large airline group that didn't order any NEO's or MAXes.


What is a backlog?


Accumulation of uncompleted work.
 
76er
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Oh no, not again!
 
airbuster
Posts: 460
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:33 pm

BOC aviation leasing just ordered an additional 18 unconfirmed 320neo series. Would be ideal replacement to start with the 73G’s at KLM. KLM has more aircraft already leased from BOC.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
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PW100
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Airbusfan29 wrote:
Air France-KLM needs to replace their NB fleet. Air France will go for the Airbus in my opinion, and I think KLM will also use the A320neo. Why? Because the 737 design is 50 years old, and I don’t think another 30 years of 737 investment is a great idea.

Given the fact that the 737 MAX gained around 4500 orders, that feeling of yours does not seem to be shared by important part(ies) of the industry.


The “simplify fleet strategy” thing seemed really interesting, because this could mean Air France-KLM will only order Airbus NBs.

Given the fact that KL and HV would be operating between 100 and 150 frames, that should be good enough to warrant another subset.
In any case, AF and KL have bigger fishes to catch when it comes to fleet simplification.


It’s easier to get lower prices at Airbus.

I'm sure Boeing would be eager to offer very competitive pricing at the moment. I don't see any evidence that Airbus could/would be willing to lower their prices any further than Boeing would/could be willing to do.
Au contraire, actually. Since the 320 series is sold out for the better part of the decade, I expect that Airbus could be making much healthier margins by selling the rare available slots as A321(X)LR for good margins (due to no competing product from Boeing), than "vanilla" 320s to KLM.


Just can't see how the B737 will be on the plate:
1. AFKLM still have ~18% own by French state

That hasn't stopped them from being one of the largest 77W operators, and purchasing dozens of 787s.


2. Partnership from Airbus+Cseries can fulfill all the need in 1 stop and easier to negotiate better price

See above


3. Embraer + Boeing probably won't have agreement on JV until next year due to election

I don’t see why this should affect any 737 orders. Perhaps, if so, it could affect EMB orders, but those are already in the bag . . .


baggage loaders at EHAM are unhappy with their work, so using the A320neo is better because it supports containers.

I'm not sure if baggage loaders are going to like it, when a good part of them will no longer be needed by the company . . . .


Back in the 80s, KLM was very loyal to Douglas. KLM didn’t choose the MD-80, they chose the 737 because it had proven itself. KLM rejected the A320, it was offered to them, but KLM rejected it because they didn’t know the A320 would be a success.

I would think an airline would not order a frame on the expectations whether it will be a success (although that may be part of a launch customer's evaluation), but on what it can do to your business.


If you look at IB, LH, BA, EI, easyJet (I don’t know their IATA code), SK, they all ordered 737s or MD-80s in the 80s. At their next fleet renewal they went Airbus.

And BA seems to be going the other way . . .


I see a real advantage if KLM goes Airbus because the Airbus is more modern, it’s more comfortable, it’s easier to fly, it’s more efficient, and there are more reasons.

Given KLM's 10-abreast 777 and 9 abreast 787, it seems passenger comfort isn't top of KLM airliner purchasing requirements.


Why buy Boeing and Airbus if it’s easier and better to buy Airbus?

Perhaps because the real world is a bit more complicated than that . . . ?


Just to be sure, I'm not saying that KLM will go for the MAX. I honestly don't know. But my observations are that most of your arguments are not particularly strong, and mostly based on feelings. Which is OK (for you), but they do not make a strong case convincing me it’s almost a done deal.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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PW100
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Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:38 pm

76er wrote:
Oh no, not again!

Too late . . . :-)
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
IWMBH
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: What are KLM 737 replacement options?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:41 pm

airbuster wrote:
BOC aviation leasing just ordered an additional 18 unconfirmed 320neo series. Would be ideal replacement to start with the 73G’s at KLM. KLM has more aircraft already leased from BOC.


Could be, but I believe they've also some MAX orders that aren't placed with airlines yet. Discussing the future of KL narrow-body fleet is fun but unless KL announces anything their is just no way to know.
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