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CriticalPoint
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:50 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
Karlsands wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
At one point one of the pilots seemed a little sacred when the a/c wouldn't descend. The Controller was really nasty the Fire Chief that called for information on the flight.

He wasn’t nasty, he needed to have the frequency cleared for the issue at hand.


He was nasty, as is the case with most ATC in the US in/around major airports. They are generally rude, unhelpful, hysterical, and cause crashes to happen. The only good controller I’ve seen/heard so far was Patrick Harten who helped US Airways 1549.


Not a chance you are a pilot......and if you are you are unprofessional and that’s why they are most likely “mean” to you.

A few times In my career I have had a controller get snappy with me and it was my fault for screwing up.
 
timeless159
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:05 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:58 am

MachTen wrote:
Anyone else noticed that tool who came on the frequency and asked whether they did the QRH and that he had E175 experience? Maybe he was trying to help, but, those guys were fighting for their lives and the last thing they want to hear is someone asking whether they did the QRH. What a tool!


I was wondering what that part was, but understood the response of the crew stating they were busy fighting the airplane. To think you can be a resource in that situation because you have "E175 experience" is pretty bad situational awareness.

The controller did an excellent job. He kept the frequency clear and didn't bother the crew. In my experience, the FAA have some of the best controllers in the world...except for that guy in Dulles tower with the raspy voice. He sucks.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8755
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Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:53 am

Poorpilot wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Sam Chui didn't add a thing. Discussion on a couple of pilot boards has more details and is interesting.

And from the crew's own description, they had to cut out trim 1/2, switch into direct law and fly it from the FO side, and that put them back in control. They said they were fighting with the plane until they made those changes.


Embraer’s don’t have direct law, Airbus does.


FWIW, I was intending to relay what the actual crew said on the actual tape, because at the time nobody had conveniently excerpted it. It was a typo to say "law" instead of "mode".

I'm keeping the rest of my comments about this law/mode silliness to myself.
 
strfyr51
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Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:21 am

I am confused by the term Extensive Maintenance?? Was the airplane OVERHAULED? Or Damaged?
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:26 am

It sounded to me like a lot of people were expecting a different result.

The DL pilot that came on said he was directed to join the frequency to help. That indicated to me that everyone with ears knew this was a bad one in the making. The “great job” inputs from various other pilots speaks to the elation that the fears did not become reality.
 
RogerMurdock
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Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:25 pm

MachTen wrote:
Anyone else noticed that tool who came on the frequency and asked whether they did the QRH and that he had E175 experience? Maybe he was trying to help, but, those guys were fighting for their lives and the last thing they want to hear is someone asking whether they did the QRH. What a tool!


I could not disagree more with your assessment. The other pilot did not randomly butt in to the frequency, it's clear that someone put out a call for help from someone rated on type. In this case it doesn't seem like it was much help, but the process is reasonable. Experienced outside eyes can sometimes find something that the pilots busy fighting the plane might miss. See JT43 for example.
 
KCaviator
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:19 pm

So much wrong information in this thread. The 175 does indeed have a Direct mode. Going into Direct mode eliminates the Flight Control Module (FCM), and thus higher-level functions, from augmenting the control inputs made by the crew.

The QRH for a runaway pitch trim does not lead to selecting Direct mode. So if they were in Direct mode, it was an additional decision made by the crew. If the trim was continuing to “runaway” after selecting the System 1 and 2 cutouts, this to me could indicate a software issue with the FCM, hence why they thought it was necessary to go into Direct mode.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3558
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:29 pm

Roots1 wrote:
I know they generally investigate accidents, but wonder if the NTSB will want to look into this one.


Flight control issues are a required immediate reporting item as per FAR part 830: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/830.5

They could still choose not to investigate, but they almost certainly will for a flight control issue on a part 121 air carrier.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
reltney
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:44 pm

WOW.....EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT..... this is the second EMB to have control problems .... that should be the discussion....who GAF about anything with the controllers. Pilots fly planes......controllers talk on a radio and don’t fly the plane... enough said.

Does EMB have a problem...are their closet cases about other control problems with the EMB 170-195 series?

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14425
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:35 pm

reltney wrote:
WOW.....EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT..... this is the second EMB to have control problems .... that should be the discussion....who GAF about anything with the controllers. Pilots fly planes......controllers talk on a radio and don’t fly the plane... enough said.

Does EMB have a problem...are their closet cases about other control problems with the EMB 170-195 series?

Cheers


When the first accident had a readily explainable cause that is demonstrably absent here (mis-rigging during maintenance), what evidence is there of a trend?

This accident is plenty disturbing on its own, of course, but there’s little or no evidence yet that there’s a systemic problem.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
KCaviator
Posts: 231
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Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:34 am

N117HQ had a test flight in Indy this morning and declared an emergency due to another suspected pitch trim runaway.
 
planecane
Posts: 1559
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 am

reltney wrote:
WOW.....EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT..... this is the second EMB to have control problems .... that should be the discussion....who GAF about anything with the controllers. Pilots fly planes......controllers talk on a radio and don’t fly the plane... enough said.

Does EMB have a problem...are their closet cases about other control problems with the EMB 170-195 series?

Cheers

Excellent point. This is the important thing to discover.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1753
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:59 am

KCaviator wrote:
N117HQ had a test flight in Indy this morning and declared an emergency due to another suspected pitch trim runaway.


Holy crap! That's insane. Did this make it into AvHerald or somewhere?

I really hope this is just something with this particular airframe and not the E-jets in general. Love those planes.
 
catiii
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 am

MachTen wrote:
Anyone else noticed that tool who came on the frequency and asked whether they did the QRH and that he had E175 experience? Maybe he was trying to help, but, those guys were fighting for their lives and the last thing they want to hear is someone asking whether they did the QRH. What a tool!


By “tool” did you mean the DL pilot who formerly had flown the E75, heard the situation while on the approach into Atlanta, notified the controller after landing that he had had a similar situation in the past, and was directed by the controller to come up on that frequency to render assistance if possible? Is that who you meant?

Yeah, what a tool alright...
 
catiii
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:03 am

Cubsrule wrote:
reltney wrote:
WOW.....EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT..... this is the second EMB to have control problems .... that should be the discussion....who GAF about anything with the controllers. Pilots fly planes......controllers talk on a radio and don’t fly the plane... enough said.

Does EMB have a problem...are their closet cases about other control problems with the EMB 170-195 series?

Cheers


When the first accident had a readily explainable cause that is demonstrably absent here (mis-rigging during maintenance), what evidence is there of a trend?

This accident is plenty disturbing on its own, of course, but there’s little or no evidence yet that there’s a systemic problem.


Neither were “accidents.”
 
catiii
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:08 am

timeless159 wrote:
To think you can be a resource in that situation because you have "E175 experience" is pretty bad situational awareness.

The controller did an excellent job. He kept the frequency clear and didn't bother the crew. In my experience, the FAA have some of the best controllers in the world...except for that guy in Dulles tower with the raspy voice. He sucks.


Yeah why would anyone with significant experience in the airplane think he could be a resource to a crew going through a situation in the same airplane he had experience in, especially if he had encountered the same situation in the past...the abject nerve of that guy. He should have kept his potential solutions to himself. :sarcastic:
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8755
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:18 am

catiii wrote:
timeless159 wrote:
To think you can be a resource in that situation because you have "E175 experience" is pretty bad situational awareness.

The controller did an excellent job. He kept the frequency clear and didn't bother the crew. In my experience, the FAA have some of the best controllers in the world...except for that guy in Dulles tower with the raspy voice. He sucks.


Yeah why would anyone with significant experience in the airplane think he could be a resource to a crew going through a situation in the same airplane he had experience in, especially if he had encountered the same situation in the past...the abject nerve of that guy. He should have kept his potential solutions to himself. :sarcastic:


On several pilot boards, the overwhelming consensus is that he is a tool. However, several pilots do point out that he asked if they ran the QRH and the crew said they did not because they didn't have time while fighting the aircraft. Pitch trim runaway is a memory item in the E-jets is their response to that.
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:04 am

I give the guy the benefit of the doubt, he asked about the QRH because he wanted to know where they were in their troubleshooting efforts so he could provide the appropriate level of advice. People seem to be really quick to pile on regarding this incident (not accident - no damage to equipment or life) instead of discussing how a fault in the aircraft maintenance/design could cause such a scary situation
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:05 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
I give the guy the benefit of the doubt, he asked about the QRH because he wanted to know where they were in their troubleshooting efforts so he could provide the appropriate level of advice. People seem to be really quick to pile on regarding this incident (not accident - no damage to equipment or life) instead of discussing how a fault in the aircraft maintenance/design could cause such a scary situation

THIS was my read as well.

There were LOTS of ears on this frequency hearing a rather extreme situation unfold. This pilot came onto the frequency (as he was instructed) and even then, asked permission before saying anything more than his presence and experience in type so as not to clog the frequency.

I’m curious as to the reasons that pilots give for thinking he was a tool.
 
buzzard302
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:06 pm

KCaviator wrote:
N117HQ had a test flight in Indy this morning and declared an emergency due to another suspected pitch trim runaway.


Look at the FR24 log for this test flight, scary stuff. I would not want to be on that airplane.
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:21 pm

buzzard302 wrote:
KCaviator wrote:
N117HQ had a test flight in Indy this morning and declared an emergency due to another suspected pitch trim runaway.


Look at the FR24 log for this test flight, scary stuff. I would not want to be on that airplane.

Can you help a lay person understand what I see in this log?

I see a 21 minute flight, speed going up to ~290kts, altitude going up to 3000 or so, then circling and returning holding around 2100. What do you see in the log?
 
buzzard302
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:36 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... q#22caedf1

This is what I see on the test flight. I see a climb to 3700 ft and then an abrupt drop to 2100 ft. They gained back altitude to about 2500 ft, and then continuous fluctuations in altitude until a decent back to Indy. Based on a previous person's comment that they declared an emergency on this test flight, I doubt these altitude fluctuations were done on purpose. I'm not a pilot, so maybe this could be purposely done on a test flight. But mid flight altitude change from 3700 to 2100 seems like a dangerous move.
 
D L X
Posts: 12671
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:33 pm

buzzard302 wrote:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n117hq#22caedf1

This is what I see on the test flight.

Thanks for the explanation!
 
timeless159
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:05 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 pm

D L X wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
I give the guy the benefit of the doubt, he asked about the QRH because he wanted to know where they were in their troubleshooting efforts so he could provide the appropriate level of advice. People seem to be really quick to pile on regarding this incident (not accident - no damage to equipment or life) instead of discussing how a fault in the aircraft maintenance/design could cause such a scary situation

THIS was my read as well.

There were LOTS of ears on this frequency hearing a rather extreme situation unfold. This pilot came onto the frequency (as he was instructed) and even then, asked permission before saying anything more than his presence and experience in type so as not to clog the frequency.

I’m curious as to the reasons that pilots give for thinking he was a tool.


I didn't realize he was instructed to come on frequency to offer assistance. Good on him then. In that situation, I would prefer that any potential resource wait until we ask for help. Otherwise they are a distraction. Based on experience with SAT phone calls to MX, a lot of time is spent informing the person outside the cockpit what is happening inside the cockpit. You need to be in a fairly stabilized situation for something like this to be productive. I feel like the situation with the Horizon Q400 would have been an appropriate time to get someone with type experience on frequency as it was completely lacking in the cockpit.

Overall, Kudos to all involved! This has motivated me to dive back into systems and the QRH to refresh my flight control knowledge.
 
SabresDoc
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:47 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:36 am

I was on DL 2304 (the flight that offered help) and was listening to ATC live. I tuned in just as the flight took off. Hearing them talk about a stall situation and their tone had me fearing for the worst. Then when I heard my captain come on to offer assistance, it sounded worse. I am glad everyone was safe and I commend everyone involved for their calm, yet urgent response.
 
catiii
Posts: 3515
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:55 pm

timeless159 wrote:

I didn't realize he was instructed to come on frequency to offer assistance. Good on him then. In that situation, I would prefer that any potential resource wait until we ask for help. Otherwise they are a distraction. Based on experience with SAT phone calls to MX, a lot of time is spent informing the person outside the cockpit what is happening inside the cockpit. You need to be in a fairly stabilized situation for something like this to be productive. I feel like the situation with the Horizon Q400 would have been an appropriate time to get someone with type experience on frequency as it was completely lacking in the cockpit.

Overall, Kudos to all involved! This has motivated me to dive back into systems and the QRH to refresh my flight control knowledge.


So you didn't listen to the ATC recording, where he clearly said he was instructed to come on to the frequency, before calling him a "tool?"
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:21 pm

Looks like it had the above mentioned test flight on Sunday, it had two flights on Wednesday, one on Thursday, and one on Friday - all IND-IND.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3138
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

Re: AA (Republic) E175 Severe Control Problems at ATL last night

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:47 am

ADent wrote:
Looks like it had the above mentioned test flight on Sunday, it had two flights on Wednesday, one on Thursday, and one on Friday - all IND-IND.


It has, and all flight tests were normal. They identified the cause on this aircraft, repaired the involved components, and at this time it's believed to be an issue isolated to the aircraft involved.

I don't feel like it's appropriate to comment further at this point, but the Republic pilot group has been informed.
Cheers,
Cameron

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