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olle
Topic Author
Posts: 2074
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pm

A330 series seems to be the cat with more then 9 lifes....

In the thread about sales in 2019 we see that A330 Neo is coming back from the dead;

Why now and what is happening?

-------

olle wrote:
Who would guess that A330Neo might outsell teh B787 in 2019 ?????


Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.


-------
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:04 pm

I think the points to the A330neo are, that it can be offered for a substantial lower price than the 787, due to lower production cost, that it goes well with the A350, to fill in for lower capacity jobs, able to use the same pilot pool, and that it is that near to the performance of the 787, that other considerations matter.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:42 pm

I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.
 
VV
Posts: 1702
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:56 pm

olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:51 pm

VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.



There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.


Very nice just does not fit the facts. The main facts about sales are simply sales numbers.

The A330 outsold the 787 over the five year period 2014 to 2018. 421 to 373
The A330 outsold the 787 over the ten year period 2009 to 2018. 740 to 552

It is a nice try to try to separate A330ceo and neo numbers, but that is just the new model tacking over from the old.
There were four big sales years for the 787, 2005 with 235, 2006 with 157, 2007 with 369 and 2013 with 182, those orders are nearly all delivered.
There was lots of talk about the 787 being hampered by the big backlog. The big backlog is gone, where is the flood of 787 orders? After the huge deluge of 787 orders after the launch, buoyed by the immens hype about the capabilities of the coming 787, orders have slowed to an average of 55 frames a year since 2009.

The A330 has an average of 74 orders a year since 2009.

An question to one of the strange arguments you present, in what way does cheap second hand A330 and perhaps 787, do influence A330neo sales, but not 787 sales? I see quite a few reputable airlines adding used A330 and keeping them longer than expected. There is a down in wide body orders, not especially a down in A330neo orders.
 
majano
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:52 pm

VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.

In short, you are saying, if you ignore the observable evidence of improving sales in 2019, and rely instead on hearsay and conjecture, the future of the a330neo is bleak. Is this an unfair summation?
 
astuteman
Posts: 7133
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:59 pm

VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.


Not so sure.

I don't think it has necessarily been a "great" year for the 330NEO per se, but it seems to have been pretty great compared to the expectations of its naysayers who seem to be in large quantities here....

Airbus log 34 net orders to date this year - 8 for Virgin, 12 for AirAsia, and 12 undisclosed, which I guess are for GECAS.
That does not include Cebu's 16, which would take the net total this year up to 50 frames.

This excludes the EK "order" for 40 frames which is not secured yet, and is rumoured NOT to be declared at DAS (which implies that it might form the basis of another decent year for the A330NEO in 2020).

It is, however, more than the 47 x 787 that have been ordered so far this year - something that has not occurred since the year of its launch in 2014.
It is also a distinct upswing from the 10 net orders in 2017 and 18 net orders in 2018
Both of those I would consider to be "good" news, if not necessarily "great" news.
It is unquestionably an upswing :yes:

You make some good points about the headwinds.
The glut of widebody orders in the last decade or more has finally caught up.

Including Cebu, the A330NEO has garnered 286 net orders since launch.
In the same time the 787 has garnered 420 net orders, which reflects a 60/40 split between the two types, and takes no account to A350 or 777 sales.
The 787's sales of 420 in 6 years is an ongoing rate of 70 per year, which is why we now see concerns over the production rate (currently 160 per year).
I think it is illustrative of the flat widebody market generally which has undoubtedly affected A330NEO sales, as has delays to its Trent 7000 engines.

Mark me down as one who believes that the long-term woes of the A330NEO are overplayed on this forum.
I think there are a number of transients, like the flat widebody market and technical delays, which are now, or will soon be winding out of the system.

I think the A330NEO will be fine going forward, if not spectacular.
We'll see.

Rgds
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:32 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.


12 from AirAsa
8 from Virgin Atlantic
2 from Uganda Airlines
16 from Cebu
and 12 from GECAS, makes 50, 38 directly from airlines 12 from a leasing company,

The production rate on the 787 was dropped because of lack of orders, 55 orders a year over the last ten years do not support a production rate of 168 frames a year. China alone is not a good explanation.
Most of the A330 in China are actually not the regional, but rather the standard version.
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:41 pm

Also where are the rumored A330neo freighter orders? Airbus has been driven out of the freighter market, mainly due to their own decisions. Beyond the 330neo, what else do they have to counter Boeing and it's freighter portfolio?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:44 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
Also where are the rumored A330neo freighter orders? Airbus has been driven out of the freighter market, mainly due to their own decisions. Beyond the 330neo, what else do they have to counter Boeing and it's freighter portfolio?


There is actually no A330neo freighter on offer and has not even be rumored, the same as there is no 787 freighter on offer, that again has been rumored.
 
MountainFlyer
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:19 am

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:53 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

...


An question to one of the strange arguments you present, in what way does cheap second hand A330 and perhaps 787, do influence A330neo sales, but not 787 sales? I see quite a few reputable airlines adding used A330 and keeping them longer than expected. There is a down in wide body orders, not especially a down in A330neo orders.


Where was there any mention or even speculation that this trend would affect A330neo sales and not 787 sales?
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
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Momo1435
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:56 pm

It's not a sign of confidence if you open a thread after a couple of orders.

And why the constant comparison with the 787?

And even if you insist in this comparison, it depends on how you count to have better numbers for the A330 or for the 787. If you count since the EIS of the 787 the A330 will indeed have more orders, although by small margin. But in the same period the A330 is still out delivered by the 787 by a significant margin, with the 787 currently still having a larger backlog.

Even so far this year, Boeing has secured orders for about 70 delivery slots. They had 2 large cancelations but those did not have any fixed delivery slots, so it was just removing dead wood.

Anyway, the A330neo was never really dead, it was and still is just not as successful as the A330ceo. But that's not to strange as it competes with the more modern inhouse A350 and plenty of open delivery slots of the 787. And with every new order it will become more interesting for other airlines to place an order as there will be more confidence in the program. The GECAS order is a good sign, large leasing companies placing significant orders is always a boost.
 
MountainFlyer
Posts: 501
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:57 pm

majano wrote:
VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.

In short, you are saying, if you ignore the observable evidence of improving sales in 2019, and rely instead on hearsay and conjecture, the future of the a330neo is bleak. Is this an unfair summation?


There was actually a fair bit of evidence you ignored in that comment. What about 2019 actual sales says anything one way or the other about future sales?
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:12 pm

astuteman wrote:
Not so sure.

I don't think it has necessarily been a "great" year for the 330NEO per se, but it seems to have been pretty great compared to the expectations of its naysayers who seem to be in large quantities here....

Airbus log 34 net orders to date this year - 8 for Virgin, 12 for AirAsia, and 12 undisclosed, which I guess are for GECAS.

No need to guess if you are willing to believe Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ge-a ... SKBN1XI0UI

"Reporting by Tim Hepher, Anshuman Daga", I'm familiar with Tim's reliable reporting, do not know Anshuman but I think it's a safe bet they have solid sources.

GECAS taking 12 new frames with RR engines on them is noteworthy and a good sign for the program, I doubt they do that without a good idea about who will be taking them.

astuteman wrote:
I think the A330NEO will be fine going forward, if not spectacular.
We'll see.

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mjoelnir
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:16 pm

MountainFlyer wrote:
majano wrote:
VV wrote:

Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.

In short, you are saying, if you ignore the observable evidence of improving sales in 2019, and rely instead on hearsay and conjecture, the future of the a330neo is bleak. Is this an unfair summation?


There was actually a fair bit of evidence you ignored in that comment. What about 2019 actual sales says anything one way or the other about future sales?


Perhaps a sales history from 2009 to 2019 says something? There was a slump in 2017 and 2018, but in 2019 sales of A330 are up again.
 
majano
Posts: 270
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:32 pm

MountainFlyer wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:

An question to one of the strange arguments you present, in what way does cheap second hand A330 and perhaps 787, do influence A330neo sales, but not 787 sales? I see quite a few reputable airlines adding used A330 and keeping them longer than expected. There is a down in wide body orders, not especially a down in A330neo orders.


Where was there any mention or even speculation that this trend would affect A330neo sales and not 787 sales?

Look at the 4th paragraph of the post mjoelnir responded to. That particular paragraph clearly isolates the a330neo in relation to second hand a330ceos and 787-8.
 
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keesje
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:39 pm

In recent years, 787 slot availability significantly improved for new orders, that should not help the A330...
I think Airbus (& Boeing) foresee a twin aisle sales bump early in the 20's. Airbus seems focussed on moving over the many A330 operators to NEO's.
Many of the leased NEO's will probably go there. It seems these are the orders so far. (wiki + GECAS)

Delta Air Lines- 35
CIT Group - 15
Malaysia AirAsia X - 66
Ireland Avolon -15
Air Lease Corporation - 29
TAP Air Portugal - 10
Garuda Indonesia - 14
Arkia Israeli Airlines - 2
Aircalin - 2
Iran Air - 28
Air Senegal - 2
BOC Aviation -2
Kuwait Airways - 8
Middle East Airlines - 2
Uganda Airlines - 2 ]
Virgin Atlantic - 2
Cebu Pacific - 16
GECAS - 12

If the A330NEO is doing better or worse than expcted of course depends on ones expectations.
It seems we need another aircraft to finally kill the A330 / A350mk1..

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Last edited by keesje on Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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trex8
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.

the only customer for regional A330 ceos was Saudi, the Chinese carriers all took "regular" ceos.
 
VV
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:46 pm

I would like to say that all your argument about past A330 sales are in reality not valid. It is the past and the reality is about to bite from 2019 onward.

It is important to lower down your enthusiasm on the A330neo:

The A330 that were sold in big numbers in the past ten years will hit back about now.
Let's see it this way: An airline that is operating an A330 fleet today could potentially choose A330neo or second hand A330 (or 787): It is obvious that A330 family, ceo and neo, presents a clear advantage from crewing perspective.
The above being said, the A330neo's lease rate is expected to be around one million dollars per month and on the other side you have A330 lease rate that could be as low as 250,000 dollars per month.

There are two options to push A330neo, that is to lower the pricing. However there is a limit to lowering the price.

Someone asked the question as how second hand A330 and 787 would not impact 787'sales. Part of the answer is already given up there. It is the crew commonality. So the other solution would be A330neo with new engine or radically switch to 787. It is obvious that the choice to stay with second hand A330 is very compelling instead of taking delivery of new and expensive A330neo.

For those airlines with very small number of aircraft, the temptation to switch to second hand 787 instead of second hand A330 can be interesting considering the fact the engine is roughly the same generation engine as the A330neo and thus the aircraft is much more efficient.
more than 1
I know it is a very complex situation and that is why a lot of people do not understand quickly the situation. A330neo has Trent 7000 that is a derivative of the Trent 1000 on the 787. it is roughly the same generation engine with perhaps 2% or 3% efficiency improvement. GEnx and Trent 100 are also the same generation engine.

The one that will have the biggest issue is the A330-800. We all know that this version is so hard to sell. The second hand A330 and the first 787 are the ones that would make A330-800's life extremely difficult.

As for 787 family is concerned; perhaps you have all noticed that the focus is now on the 787-10 and 787-9. An just for reminder, since its launch in 2004, the 787 has obtained more than 1,400 orders of which more than 900 have been delivered. It is now time to deliver the 787-10 and 787-9. The marketing and sales focus is certainly also on these two versions.

Now back to the A330neo. We have just discussed about the challenge on the A330-800 due to second hand A330 and also due to second hand 787-8 that has same generation engines.

On the A330-900, the situation is a little bit different. It is the most attractive version and it is the version that is less challenged. This said, the competition against the 787-9 and 787-10 is not easy. Airbus may have to make a very difficult choice between favoring the sales of A330-900 against the A350-900.

So, in order to avoid any disappointment, I would like to invite you to moderate your enthusiasm and optimism for the A330neo.
I have to say that the A330 is a very good aircraft and the A330neo is even better, but the competition is also very good.

There is an extra competition on the A330_900, it is called the A350-900.,

Anyway, think about all the above calmly and perhaps you will find it reasonable.
 
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keesje
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:23 pm

As far as the A330-800 is concerned; perhaps you have all noticed that the focus is now on the A330-900 and A350s.

And just for reminder, since its launch in 2004 of the 787, the A3309 has obtained more than 1,100 orders of which more than 800 have been delivered.

It is now time to deliver the A330-900 and A350s.

The marketing and sales focus is certainly also on these two versions.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
astuteman
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:37 pm

VV wrote:
I would like to say that all your argument about past A330 sales are in reality not valid


And you have said it. Hopefully we can move on now.

VV wrote:
It is the past and the reality is about to bite from 2019 onward.


We have already discussed this. That reality is biting now, and has been for a couple of years. It is one of the reasons that sales of both the A330NEO and 787 have slowed. But it is a transient. It WILL change. At some point. And sales of all the competitors in this sector will bounce back.

VV wrote:
It is important to lower down your enthusiasm on the A330neo:


It is important to provide a balanced alternative view to temper your pessimism with regards the A330NEO

VV wrote:
. An just for reminder, since its launch in 2004, the 787 has obtained more than 1,400 orders of which more than 900 have been delivered.


Wasn't it you that just criticised us for arguments that are in the past? Those 1400 orders are the past.
The present for the 787 is 47 orders this year and an average of 70 per year for the last 6 years.
You can of course argue that the past is not a guide to the future, but I think you'll find that's a knife that can cut both ways

VV wrote:
There is an extra competition on the A330_900, it is called the A350-900


I suspect the history will show that the A330NEO has taken orders away from the A350 …. (TAP comes to mind as an example).
Either way, the A350 is just as much competition for the 787 (and 777) as it is for the A330NEO.
Almost by definition.

VV wrote:
Anyway, think about all the above calmly and perhaps you will find it reasonable.


See above :)

Rgds
 
VSMUT
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:12 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
Airbus has been driven out of the freighter market


Airbus still has the A330P2F and A320/321P2F on offer. From what I know, those two are selling.
 
rbavfan
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:30 pm

olle wrote:
A330 series seems to be the cat with more then 9 lifes....

In the thread about sales in 2019 we see that A330 Neo is coming back from the dead;

Why now and what is happening?

-------

olle wrote:
Who would guess that A330Neo might outsell teh B787 in 2019 ?????


Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.


-------


The early sales were due to the delay in the 787 program and were A330ceo's, not A330neo's. Some companies switched because they needed capacity. You can't make the sales case of A330neo vs 787 by mixing ceo models that sold due to production & certification delays. So the A330neo did not outsell it, the A330 as a whole did.
 
rbavfan
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:34 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think the points to the A330neo are, that it can be offered for a substantial lower price than the 787, due to lower production cost, that it goes well with the A350, to fill in for lower capacity jobs, able to use the same pilot pool, and that it is that near to the performance of the 787, that other considerations matter.


The A330 and A350 do not have the same pilot pool there is difference training when you move from 1 to the other. Per diagrams & information released by Airbus. They have different cockpit layouts as well..
 
rbavfan
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:52 pm

astuteman wrote:
VV wrote:
olle wrote:
...

Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.
...


Not so sure.

The A330 is a good aircraft, but good things have an end.

There were a lot of A330 delivered between 2011 and 2017. Many of them are now going to the second hand market. According to several very reliable sources, the lease rate of the A330 is currently under pressure. In some cases, a 3012 vintage was offered at 250,000 dollars per month. The issue is that there is a kind of glut in the market. The first 787-8 will also enter into the second hand market next year.

Both the A330, that are relatively young, and the first 787-8 constitute a very tough competition to the A330neo. It is very very difficult to place A330neo nowadays. There is tsunami of offers for relatively young A330 and there are some offered 787-8 too. Second hand A330 and 787-8 re available in short notice. I have seen quite a few A330 in the market for sale or for lease with very short lead time.

The issue is that if the prices of A330neo, especially A330-900, is lowered even further it will have an impact on the A350-900 too. This is a very dynamic situation that is not necessarily good for new aircraft and more specifically for the A330neo.

So, in my opinion the A330neo will have tough times to sell in the next two to three years, and this is even more true because oil prices are not so high.
So you enthusiasm for the A330neo is admirable, but its life will not be easy.


Not so sure.

I don't think it has necessarily been a "great" year for the 330NEO per se, but it seems to have been pretty great compared to the expectations of its naysayers who seem to be in large quantities here....

Airbus log 34 net orders to date this year - 8 for Virgin, 12 for AirAsia, and 12 undisclosed, which I guess are for GECAS.
That does not include Cebu's 16, which would take the net total this year up to 50 frames.

This excludes the EK "order" for 40 frames which is not secured yet, and is rumoured NOT to be declared at DAS (which implies that it might form the basis of another decent year for the A330NEO in 2020).

It is, however, more than the 47 x 787 that have been ordered so far this year - something that has not occurred since the year of its launch in 2014.
It is also a distinct upswing from the 10 net orders in 2017 and 18 net orders in 2018
Both of those I would consider to be "good" news, if not necessarily "great" news.
It is unquestionably an upswing :yes:

You make some good points about the headwinds.
The glut of widebody orders in the last decade or more has finally caught up.

Including Cebu, the A330NEO has garnered 286 net orders since launch.
In the same time the 787 has garnered 420 net orders, which reflects a 60/40 split between the two types, and takes no account to A350 or 777 sales.
The 787's sales of 420 in 6 years is an ongoing rate of 70 per year, which is why we now see concerns over the production rate (currently 160 per year).
I think it is illustrative of the flat widebody market generally which has undoubtedly affected A330NEO sales, as has delays to its Trent 7000 engines.

Mark me down as one who believes that the long-term woes of the A330NEO are overplayed on this forum.
I think there are a number of transients, like the flat widebody market and technical delays, which are now, or will soon be winding out of the system.

I think the A330NEO will be fine going forward, if not spectacular.
We'll see.

Rgds


Everyone could also take into account the sales of A330neo & 787 by models that have similar seating & thus have similar need for the airframes.
 
VV
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:08 pm

rbavfan wrote:
...

The early sales were due to the delay in the 787 program and were A330ceo's, not A330neo's. Some companies switched because they needed capacity. You can't make the sales case of A330neo vs 787 by mixing ceo models that sold due to production & certification delays. So the A330neo did not outsell it, the A330 as a whole did.


You are right.
During the 787 delays there has been a fire sale of A330ceo more importantly most of them are A330-300.

Then there was a huge ramp up of A330 (ceo) deliveries. Today those aircraft are entering the second hand market as I described previously.
Because oil price is not so high, the second hand A330ceo are still extremely compelling because they are relatively young.
The issue is that many airlines are releasing these A330 like Singapore Airlines, Qatar and so on because they ordered A350 or 787.

In addition some 787-8 are also going into second hand market soon. Please note that the 787 has engines that are similar in term of efficiency with A330neo engines.

What I am trying to say here is that the tsunami of A330 coming into the end of lease term is just impressive in the next three years. I do not believe the market is ready to accept the return of those end-of-lease aircraft. There could potentially a drop of lease rate.

From several credible source a 2012 vintage A330 can go as low as 250,000 dollars per month. That's half of the normal value. I am afraid the remaining A330 ceo that will be delivered from the factory will have an abysmal value. Some airlines may just drop the order and lose the pre-delivery installment instead of taking delivery of an aircraft with depressed value.

I do not know how many A330ceo are still to be delivered.

The situation of the A330neo is very complex and you guys should look into the details.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:30 pm

rbavfan wrote:
olle wrote:
A330 series seems to be the cat with more then 9 lifes....

In the thread about sales in 2019 we see that A330 Neo is coming back from the dead;

Why now and what is happening?

-------

olle wrote:
Who would guess that A330Neo might outsell teh B787 in 2019 ?????


Somebody who followed the sales history of both the 787 and A330?
People seem to forget, that the bigger part of A330 sold since the 787 is on offer.

In the five year period 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 the 787 sold 41, 71, 58, 94 and 109 respectively. The A330 sold 154, 136, 83, 21, 27.
That makes it 373 for the 787 and 421 for the A330 over that five year period.
The A330 sold better in 2014, 2015 and 2016 and had dismal sales in 2017, and 2018.

Now it could be a good year for the A330 again.


-------


The early sales were due to the delay in the 787 program and were A330ceo's, not A330neo's. Some companies switched because they needed capacity. You can't make the sales case of A330neo vs 787 by mixing ceo models that sold due to production & certification delays. So the A330neo did not outsell it, the A330 as a whole did.


Yes the A330 as a whole did, exactly. You are trying to compare the sale of all 787 models launched in 2004, with the big sales numbers in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2013 with a new model of the A330 on sale since 2014. Very realistic.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:51 pm

For the A330neo, I see Airbus having more sales when current A330s hit about the 18 year mark...right now, the market for A330s below 233t is low, and almost zero for non-RR-powered frames. Airlines who might be making a decision soon on the A330 include Korean Air (for later A330s, although for them, the B78X may have the edge), Qantas, and Virgin Australia. However, in the Airbus lineup, the A330 might be squeezed by the A321XLR, as the entire A321neo series (base, LR, and XLR) is fragmenting the market significantly. Routes under 6 hours currently flown by the A330 could transition to the A321neo with greater frequency, unless there are major slot restrictions on at least one end. The sweet spot is really 6-8 hours, beyond which the Dreamliner or A350XWB has the edge.

Also, I would imagine the Iran Air order is just for accounting purposes, which I expect to be NTU. Delta could pick up some more frames, in addition to its direct 35 order and 2 from the ALC order book. What I also fear may have hurt the A330neo is when Azul announced its lease rate at just $784K/month for a factory new A339 from Avolon (although at the time, HNA Group held a share in Azul, as well as ownership of Avolon). I also have to wonder if this factored into the decision by Hi Fly to go with brand-new A339s despite having no scheduled services.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:02 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
12 from AirAsa
8 from Virgin Atlantic
2 from Uganda Airlines
16 from Cebu
and 12 from GECAS, makes 50, 38 directly from airlines 12 from a leasing company,


Sometimes it helps to post order dates. Although you are talking about the whole 2019 year, the three big orders came in a five week period.

Airbus just posted their results through the end of October.
2 UGANDA AIRLINES 5-Apr (A330-800)
8 VIRGIN ATLANTIC 1-Jul
12 AIRASIA X MALAYSIA 30-Sep
12 UNDISCLOSED 22-Oct (presumably this is the GECAS order)
16 CEBU 4-Nov (not included in October report)

If the posted retail prices are even close to accurate, it does seem funny to purchase the A330-900 when for only $21 million more you can buy a much more capable jet.
A330-900 $296.4 - 262 orders
A350-900 $317.4 - 737 orders

It seems that on similar length trials, and give the extra 15 seats in the A350-900 the larger jet had better fuel economy on a per seat basis.
Airbus A330-900 2017 300 (8,610 km) 2.48 L/100 km
Airbus A350-900 2013 315 (9,208 km) 2.39 L/100 km
 
smartplane
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:34 pm

The used market for the 787 versus all versions of the A330 will be interesting to follow.

787 support technology is considered onerous by smaller operators and lessors compared to the A330 family. Not an issue if you are an existing 787 operator looking to top up or add seasonal capacity, but definitely if you are not.

Lessors with both on the books know all versions of the A330 are more nimble in the used market compared to the 787, though the latter is yet to be really tested. That 787 freighter conversion might need to happen sooner than later.
 
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tjcab
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:47 pm

rbavfan wrote:

The early sales were due to the delay in the 787 program and were A330ceo's, not A330neo's. Some companies switched because they needed capacity. You can't make the sales case of A330neo vs 787 by mixing ceo models that sold due to production & certification delays. So the A330neo did not outsell it, the A330 as a whole did.


And that is the nature of the business; you have production issues, you may loose out. Some order aircraft due to delivery availability, discounts etc. It is what it is.
 
trex8
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:55 pm

The only issue A has to worry about is did the R & D get paid back, if it does and the neo stole some orders from the competition, it was well worth it.
I recall when it was being touted pundits said they might sell several hundred, when they launched and said they expected, IIRC , 1000, people were stunned at their forecast. Might not be reached but even several hundred would probably pay back the 2 billion + the project is supposed to cost.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.


Virgin Atlantic ordered 14-a330-900s plus 6 options

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1TI0YM
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm

Portuguese ORBEST (sister of spanish EVELOP) will also receive one first quarter 2020.
"Well be thy one,
and wisdom too.
And grew, and joyed in my growth.
From a word to a word, I was lead to a Wyrd.
From a deed, to another deed."
 
BrianDromey
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:11 pm

I expect Aer Lingus will become an NEO customer in the next 12 months. They are taking the last two A333s off the line, but still have 3 A332s they want to replace.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:55 pm

Talk about rose coloured glasses and cherry picking data. Since the A330NEO launch the 787 has outsold the A330NEO and A350 COMBINED! 420 vs 387 (286+101)

There is always a spike of orders in a launch year with reduced sales in prior years and conversions from other models. This is simply to make an impressive launch. For instance the A350 had negative orders in 2014 and 2015 when the A330NEO launched.

The A330NEO received a few more sales this year as the program was desperate and it was about to get another production rate cut. There was only 19 A350's sold this year which is half of previous two years. Airbus can pick and choose which family gets orders by offering either model slightly discounted.

Since the A330NEO launched the A350 has gained only 101 orders to the order book in 6 years. That is only 16.8 aircraft per year. The A350 was averaging around 100 aircraft orders pear year before the A330NEO launch.

The A330NEO will continue to be sold extremely cheap and with low profit to maintain production. It will take away valuable sales from the A350 which is why the production rate increase was recently cancelled due to poor sales in the last few years.

The A330NEO and A350 are unbelievably close in size and capability. MTOW is the best indicator of this as it combines range and size. This is the core problem they have a 11% MTOW difference between families. The 787/777X has a 40% MTOW difference. The market no longer decides what aircraft is suitable based on size and range. The Airbus aircraft are close enough together that most orders can be decided by which model Airbus does a good deal on.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.


Really just 26 orders? That doesn’t constitute “great.”
 
VV
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:25 pm

I really do not understand the last few messages.

Honestly I do not follow the order intake of different aircraft.

So how many order does A330neo get this year and how many 787 gets?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:39 pm

VV wrote:
I really do not understand the last few messages.

Honestly I do not follow the order intake of different aircraft.

So how many order does A330neo get this year and how many 787 gets?


This year up to now net orders 787 38 and A330 45. A330neo 50 and A330-200 -5.
 
VV
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I really do not understand the last few messages.

Honestly I do not follow the order intake of different aircraft.

So how many order does A330neo get this year and how many 787 gets?


This year up to now net orders 787 38 and A330 45. A330neo 50 and A330-200 -5.


I have just checked the orders and deliveries spreadsheet as of end of October 2019. There only 34 orders for A330neo. Where do you get 50?
 
chiad
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 pm

VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I really do not understand the last few messages.

Honestly I do not follow the order intake of different aircraft.

So how many order does A330neo get this year and how many 787 gets?


This year up to now net orders 787 38 and A330 45. A330neo 50 and A330-200 -5.


I have just checked the orders and deliveries spreadsheet as of end of October 2019. There only 34 orders for A330neo. Where do you get 50?


Cebu Pacific firms 16 A330neo (november 4th)
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 30neo.html
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:25 pm

VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I really do not understand the last few messages.

Honestly I do not follow the order intake of different aircraft.

So how many order does A330neo get this year and how many 787 gets?


This year up to now net orders 787 38 and A330 45. A330neo 50 and A330-200 -5.


I have just checked the orders and deliveries spreadsheet as of end of October 2019. There only 34 orders for A330neo. Where do you get 50?

Post above says:

16 CEBU 4-Nov (not included in October report)

I suppose we'll see EK's order mentioned by Astuteman some time not too far in the future as well.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:45 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.


Virgin Atlantic ordered 14-a330-900s plus 6 options

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1TI0YM


6 of the 14 Virgin Atlantic A330neos are not new orders. 6 of them are leases from Air Lease who ordered them years ago and had delivery slots that needed a customer.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:02 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I don’t know how 2019 constitutes a great year for the A330. As far as orders goes, we have 8 orders from Virgin Atlantic, 16 from Cebu Pacific and Uganda Airlines firming up 2 MoUs from last year. Other than that it has been announcements about leasing companies placing airplanes and Air Asia X adjusting their order again.

The majority of the A330s ordered in 2014-2017 were sold to Chinese Airlines. Those were A330ceos in mostly a regional configuration. None of those airlines have ordered the A330neo and the 787 just dropped production rate because of lack of orders from China. The big mystery is what will be the next regional widebody in China.


Virgin Atlantic ordered 14-a330-900s plus 6 options

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1TI0YM


6 of the 14 Virgin Atlantic A330neos are not new orders. 6 of them are leases from Air Lease who ordered them years ago and had delivery slots that needed a customer.


Can you provide a source for that information please?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:14 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Virgin Atlantic ordered 14-a330-900s plus 6 options

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1TI0YM


6 of the 14 Virgin Atlantic A330neos are not new orders. 6 of them are leases from Air Lease who ordered them years ago and had delivery slots that needed a customer.


Can you provide a source for that information please?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... nsion.html says:

Virgin Atlantic has selected 14 A330-900s to replace its A330ceos from 2021, with options to further expand its fleet of highly efficient wide-body aircraft. The firm order for eight aircraft and six additional on lease from Air Lease Corporation (ALC) (NYSE: AL), was signed at the Paris Air Show by Shai Weiss, Virgin Atlantic CEO and Guillaume Faury, Airbus CEO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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PacoMartin
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:23 am

VV wrote:
I have just checked the orders and deliveries spreadsheet as of end of October 2019. There only 34 orders for A330neo. Where do you get 50?


In the OPs enthusiasm he not only checked the October summary, but added in a press release from November. Grabbing mid-month totals can get confusing.

Boeing has still only released summaries through the end of September. For 2019 they record 133 widebodfy orders (including cargo jets) which includes 71 Dreamliners.
Contractual Changes -24
2019 ASC 606 Changes -9
So Dreamliners Net for 2019 is 71-24-9=38

15 767-2C
11 767-300F
1 777-200LR
2 777-300ER
15 777F
18 777X
1 787-8
49 787-9
21 787-10
133
=========================================
Regarding the A330-900neo. If you don't see any orders for years, and then three substantial in five weeks you can almost bet discount price are involved.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:25 am

Revelation wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

6 of the 14 Virgin Atlantic A330neos are not new orders. 6 of them are leases from Air Lease who ordered them years ago and had delivery slots that needed a customer.


Can you provide a source for that information please?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... nsion.html says:

Virgin Atlantic has selected 14 A330-900s to replace its A330ceos from 2021, with options to further expand its fleet of highly efficient wide-body aircraft. The firm order for eight aircraft and six additional on lease from Air Lease Corporation (ALC) (NYSE: AL), was signed at the Paris Air Show by Shai Weiss, Virgin Atlantic CEO and Guillaume Faury, Airbus CEO.


The article doesn't mention "we ordered the aircraft years ago and were looking for a customer and have finally found a customer to place them with".
These are LEASED AC just like any other airline that leases aircraft. Therefore Virgin Atlantic ordered 14 AC and have options for another 6 AC.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 am

UPS757Pilot wrote:
Also where are the rumored A330neo freighter orders? Airbus has been driven out of the freighter market, mainly due to their own decisions. Beyond the 330neo, what else do they have to counter Boeing and it's freighter portfolio?



the A330 nor the A350 are offered in Freighter version Which is probably why the B767F is getting new orders. Not to mention the KC-46 version for the USAF.
Whether Airbus missed the Boat or failed to plan for the freighters needed is beyond me.
I haven't seen nor read where they even offered an A330F to anyone in the CEO or the NEO versions.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:56 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Can you provide a source for that information please?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... nsion.html says:

Virgin Atlantic has selected 14 A330-900s to replace its A330ceos from 2021, with options to further expand its fleet of highly efficient wide-body aircraft. The firm order for eight aircraft and six additional on lease from Air Lease Corporation (ALC) (NYSE: AL), was signed at the Paris Air Show by Shai Weiss, Virgin Atlantic CEO and Guillaume Faury, Airbus CEO.


The article doesn't mention "we ordered the aircraft years ago and were looking for a customer and have finally found a customer to place them with".
These are LEASED AC just like any other airline that leases aircraft. Therefore Virgin Atlantic ordered 14 AC and have options for another 6 AC.


Air lease corp's own press release disagrees:
https://airleasecorp.com/press/air-lease-corporation-announces-lease-placement-of-six-new-airbus-a330-900neos-with-virgin-atlantic-airways

PARIS, France, June 18, 2019 – Today Air Lease Corporation (NYSE: AL; “ALC”) announced long-term lease placements for six new Airbus A330-900neo aircraft with Virgin Atlantic Airways. The six new A330-900neos are scheduled to deliver to the airline starting in 2021 through 2022 from ALC’s order book with Airbus.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A330Neo - 2019 a great year

Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:35 am

strfyr51 wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
Also where are the rumored A330neo freighter orders? Airbus has been driven out of the freighter market, mainly due to their own decisions. Beyond the 330neo, what else do they have to counter Boeing and it's freighter portfolio?

the A330 nor the A350 are offered in Freighter version Which is probably why the B767F is getting new orders. Not to mention the KC-46 version for the USAF.
Whether Airbus missed the Boat or failed to plan for the freighters needed is beyond me.
I haven't seen nor read where they even offered an A330F to anyone in the CEO or the NEO versions.

A330F: https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/freight ... -200f.html
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