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Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:46 pm

I had an interesting discussion with a UPS MD-11 Pilot yesterday. Overall he is unhappy with the frequency of out of service time on the MD-11s and says that both he and his fellow pilots cannot wait for the MD-11F's to be replaced.

He said that Airbus has been pitching "like mad" a new version of the A330F to UPS that has folding wingtips so that the A330F will fit into existing gate spaces.

I mentioned to him that Boeing as recently started a study of a B767-4F with modern engines which could also be targeted at the MD-11F replacement market.

Lot's of interesting discussions between us on the possibilities of both aircraft...

The news here is of a proposed A330F with folding wingtips.

Has anyone else hear of this - and how do you think it would work?

Have a great day,
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:59 pm

Honestly, pilots are about the least reliable source you can get for this kind of information...

That said, I'd love it if Airbus would -F the 333 (339); more volume for parcel carrier.

The thing is, unless they can secure a massive order from either Fedex, UPS or Amazon, I can't see it being viable, sandwiched between the P2F program for the same airframe and the possible new larger 767F.
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Devilfish
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Received wisdom on this board describes the A338 as eminently suitable for the freighter role. Maybe the "proposed A330F" cited in the OP could refer to Airbus swapping the current wingtip on the A338 for a folding one and beefing up the main deck :?:

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 0-800.html
Last edited by Devilfish on Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VSMUT
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:33 pm

Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:54 pm

The two airlines that would have to sign on to an updated A330F would be Fedex and UPS. To add a bit more perspective, FedEx has 56 MD-11F's & BCF's, while UPS has 37 MD-11BCF's. FedEx is adding the 763ERF at a brisk pace to replace the MD-11 as the large domestic hub feeder, as well as more B777F's to replace the MD-11F's on long-haul routes. UPS is doubling their 748F fleet to 28, which has the added capacity and range to replace multiple MD-11 flights in tying their international hubs together. They are also adding more 767ERF's as large domestic hub feeders and have chosen to upgrade avionics on their existing fleet of A306F's, rather than replace them.

To add folding wingtips to the A330F would require an expensive development program for what is already a pricey, medium-haul freighter (it lists for $241M ea.). If a proposal involves using the A330NEO as a platform, then such a development program gets even more expensive. I'm guessing the potential market for such an all-new freighter would range from around 50 to 150 units, which would result in a thin profit margin for Airbus, at best. Also, now that there is an active Passenger-to-Cargo conversion program underway for the A330CEO, they would end up competing with their own legacy.
Last edited by FLALEFTY on Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:00 pm

Sounds expensive for a tight market..
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:02 pm

Airbus would of course have a piece of this market again after they lost it when the A300/A310 went out of production. The question is if the investment in a new version of the A330 with folded wingtips will be financially viable, can they offer the plane to the customers at a price that can compete with current and rumored future Boeing products. If the airlines can continue with more old gen new 767s and 777s there's really no way for Airbus to successfully pitch a much more expensive new version of the A330 as a good option. Considering the costs Airbus might not even a neo version of the A330 for this market.

This really is one most interesting open questions in the market right now. There could be some big surprises on the way by either or both Airbus and Boeing to capture this very specific market.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:05 pm

If those operators are looking for new MD-11 replacements, the rumopur of the 767MAX makes sense, as it would be the counter to this A330F-NEO
 
A388
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:13 pm

This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

A388
 
T4thH
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.

Sorry, but are you not mixing the A330 with the potential and already discussed A350-1000 freighter version?

I have my doubts regarding the story with the folding tips. This will be a major change with a whole bunch of certifications and flight test hours; in my opinion it is just not worth to spend the time and the money, to do this for a few freighters.The folding wing tips will add weight, where no one wants to have it, at the end of the wings. I will not be surprised, if not the whole already for the A330 Neo new developed wing will have to be again new developed. So around 5 years time for development and all certifications? 2 billion development/project costs?

Perhaps I have to verify again the Airbus and Boeing expectations for the next 20 years timeframe; There will not be a high demand on new build widebody freighters in next 20 years, less (or much less) than 1000? Rest will be conversions?
To get more than the development/project costs back, how many will have to be sold? 300? 400? 500? Is it likely to sell so many A330 F versions with folding wing tips on this small market? To get such a high market share of the total market?

I have my doubts on this part, so I have big doubts regarding this whole story.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:19 pm

A388 wrote:
Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps.

Except the parking spots on the ramps have specific sizes, and a few cargo airlines who use aircraft like the A300F, 767F, MD-11F or DC-10F have designed their operations and ramps around their smaller wingspan.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:20 pm

T4thH wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.

Sorry, but are you not mixing the A330 with the potential and already discussed A350-1000 freighter version?

No, there was a rumour of a stretched cargo A330, comparable to the recent 767F-Max idea.
viewtopic.php?t=1389405
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Sounds expensive for a tight market..

To be fair, so does the proposed 764F.

It all depends on what orders the customers are willing to place, and how much each vendor will compete to get the orders.

mxaxai wrote:
T4thH wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.

Sorry, but are you not mixing the A330 with the potential and already discussed A350-1000 freighter version?

No, there was a rumour of a stretched cargo A330, comparable to the recent 767F-Max idea.
viewtopic.php?t=1389405

So this UPS MD11 pilot very well may be speculating based on the article in that older thread, https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -by-amazon

It said:

Airbus has already been exploring ways to lift sales of the A330neo, including a pitch to boost its maximum takeoff weight. Both Seattle-based Amazon and UPS are asking Airbus to consider stretching the A330-900 variant’s fuselage to carry more cargo while flying a shorter range, according to the people, who asked not to be named as the discussions are private.

So can we assume both AMZN and UPS are showing interest in this class of newly built aircraft?
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T4thH
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:36 pm

mxaxai wrote:
T4thH wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.

Sorry, but are you not mixing the A330 with the potential and already discussed A350-1000 freighter version?

No, there was a rumour of a stretched cargo A330, comparable to the recent 767F-Max idea.
viewtopic.php?t=1389405

Sorry, but such stories are more something for the conspiracy forums: to be stated between "chemtrails are everywhere" and "AIDS by masturbation". :hissyfit:

No company in the world will develop an own prolonged A330 version just for the civil freighter market. There is no market for it, to ever get back the project costs.
 
T4thH
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:06 pm

OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?
 
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:29 pm

T4thH wrote:
OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?

I guess this also kills off the 764F-with-GEnX thing too, sigh.

The thing I had a hard time getting past is why would AMZN be buying new build freighters when they have their contractors buying and converting their own 763s?

Seems AMZN is glad to not own or operate the airplanes, and can play the contractors off each other if any of them get too greedy.
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eamondzhang
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:32 pm

T4thH wrote:
OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?

Whatever forecast report that was produced by both Airbus and Boeing is literally a piece filled with BS and should really be treated as a grain of salt.

Try forecast 8,000 widebody capacity.

Michael
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
T4thH wrote:
OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?

I guess this also kills off the 764F-with-GEnX thing too, sigh.

The thing I had a hard time getting past is why would AMZN be buying new build freighters when they have their contractors buying and converting their own 763s?

Seems AMZN is glad to not own or operate the airplanes, and can play the contractors off each other if any of them get too greedy.


In the AMZN thread I recall reading that their acquisition pace is slowing, also they use the contractor's that low bid. I think AMZN has a 'fleet' of around 40 right now, good size but not someone that will order 100 new build freighters.

The 764 with GEnX thing probably will happen, early in that thread it was noted that the current 767 engines do not meet emission standards starting 2027.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:11 pm

A388 wrote:
This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

A388


Well he was talking about ramp space but I agree, especially for UPS and Fedex that control entire airports, it doesn't make sense, Airbus would be better off selling current airplanes and paying for the airport paint to be remade...
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:22 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
The 764 with GEnX thing probably will happen, early in that thread it was noted that the current 767 engines do not meet emission standards starting 2027.

I hope it happens, but am pretty skeptical that they will make money on the program so they won't be able to spend the necessary funds to solve the problem.

Aesma wrote:
A388 wrote:
This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

Well he was talking about ramp space but I agree, especially for UPS and Fedex that control entire airports, it doesn't make sense, Airbus would be better off selling current airplanes and paying for the airport paint to be remade...

I don't think it's that simple. FX may be the most important tenant at MEM, but there simply isn't room to accommodate aircraft with +25% greater wingspan (60.30/47.60).

Image

Ref: https://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/7 ... /A330-300/
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T4thH
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:27 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
T4thH wrote:
OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?

Whatever forecast report that was produced by both Airbus and Boeing is literally a piece filled with BS and should really be treated as a grain of salt.

Try forecast 8,000 widebody capacity.

Michael


Please note, just take the forcast from Airbus, Boeing, Embraer and Bombadier + independent, mix them and you will get an according number.

Just take the Airbus numbers:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/global-market-forecast.html
Chose the 4.9 MB booklet, page 143

OK, they (Boeing and Airbus) have different system, that make these difficult to compare:
Freighters:
Boeing: smallbody, widebody (medium) and widebody (large)
Airbus is working with payloads, so small, medium and heavy.

Boeing: 2800 freighters. Airbus 2500. Both: small, only conversions.
Boeing: 1040 new build freighters, 500 medium, 540 heavy.
Airbus; 850 new build freighters, 499 medium and 356 heavy.

Just remind, it is a 20 years forecast, and both are (for a 20 years forecast) near enough together. And it is the same with all other forecasts.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:42 pm

I have not heard anything about a new A330F. The only thing I now about is, that Airbus has not given up on offering a freighter. The A330 p2f just gets into swing several conversions, both -300 and -200 are on order.

A changed wing could make sense, if it would be on offer for the passenger A330 too.
But to get to the next gate size down, the neo would have to fold 12 m, 6 on each side and the ceo 10.3 m 5.15 on each side, that would be huge folding sections.
Could a wing with folding wingtips a plus for the MRTT?
I have my doubts about seeing a A330 with a folding wing, we can hardly call sections of 5 or 6 m wingtips.

I can easily believe a rumor about a new version of an A330F. That bird is still at an MTOW of 233t. Perhaps we could see a A330-300F with a MTOW of 251t.
Or an A330-800F with an MTOW of 251t. Both with normal wings.
 
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Could a wing with folding wingtips a plus for the MRTT?
I have my doubts about seeing a A330 with a folding wing, we can hardly call sections of 5 or 6 m wingtips.

I don’t really see the plus for the MRTT, that is a huge change for a limited market.

I can see stretch A330s and of course a neo F but I don’t see folding wingtips anytime soon. That would require basically an entirely new wing. Airbus is not going to invest in that right now.
 
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:47 pm

A388 wrote:
This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

A388
You don't understand the importance of wingspan with regards to UPS and FedEx airport operations. Currently the MD-11 is the largest airplane which can be parked on the wings in SDF. There simply isn't enough remote parking for another large widebody besides the 747 there. I am confident having the ability to park the airplane within current airport infrastructure is probably a top 3 area of concern when discussing a potential MD-11 replacement with Airbus and Boeing. The 767X probably has an advantage with regards to fleet commonality, etc but if Airbus can make a compelling case with an A330 freighter they may go down that road.
 
T4thH
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I have not heard anything about a new A330F. The only thing I now about is, that Airbus has not given up on offering a freighter. The A330 p2f just gets into swing several conversions, both -300 and -200 are on order.

A changed wing could make sense, if it would be on offer for the passenger A330 too.
But to get to the next gate size down, the neo would have to fold 12 m, 6 on each side and the ceo 10.3 m 5.15 on each side, that would be huge folding sections.
Could a wing with folding wingtips a plus for the MRTT?
I have my doubts about seeing a A330 with a folding wing, we can hardly call sections of 5 or 6 m wingtips.

I can easily believe a rumor about a new version of an A330F. That bird is still at an MTOW of 233t. Perhaps we could see a A330-300F with a MTOW of 251t.
Or an A330-800F with an MTOW of 251t. Both with normal wings.

I am on your site. I see a good chance for a A330 800 or 900 freighter version, but I am not sure to see both; I fear, there is no market which will justify the project costs to develop and certify both.
And no, the freighter market will never justify a further developments like a A330-1000 or a folding wing; with luck, they can sell 200 for the mid size market of the 500 new build freighters in the next 20 years.

And no, the MRTT does neither justify a 1000 version and of course NEVER a new wing. The Neo wing is unusable for the MRTT. They are happy with the old Ceo A330/A340 wing, as at the outer former A340 engine positions the fuel pods are located and there is the space to implement all the fuel pipes, former used for the outer A340 engines. It is just like this A330/340 wing has been constructed for the MRTT fuel tanker, a benefit, no other jet in the world has. This old wing is one of the main reasons, why the MRTT is such a success. This wing is like "god mode" for a tanker and it is easy to see, why it is so superior in comparison to the B767 tanker versions, they just never have had any issues to implement all of the fueling systems.
Perhaps they will once implement the A330 Neo engines in the MRTT but they will never change the old A330/340 wing.
And no, there is a reason, why the MRTT is a A220-200/800 in size and not a A330-300/900. It needs the range of the A330-200/800, it shall additional transport heavy freight and not light weight parcels. It just does not need the volume of the A330-300/900.
 
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:04 am

T4thH wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not exactly new rumours. Stories about a hypothetical A330-1000F for UPS and Amazon have been around since the spring of 2018.

Sorry, but are you not mixing the A330 with the potential and already discussed A350-1000 freighter version?

I have my doubts regarding the story with the folding tips. This will be a major change with a whole bunch of certifications and flight test hours; in my opinion it is just not worth to spend the time and the money, to do this for a few freighters.The folding wing tips will add weight, where no one wants to have it, at the end of the wings. I will not be surprised, if not the whole already for the A330 Neo new developed wing will have to be again new developed. So around 5 years time for development and all certifications? 2 billion development/project costs?

Folding wingtips are a new wing. Make no mistake about that. That is a multi-billion usd effort.

Folding wingtips benefit high aspect ratio wings by enabling underside laminar flow. That is how the weight and complexity opens a larger market.

There must be a return on investment. For an A338F, sure. Folding wings? Not for the current designed wings.

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jbs2886
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:13 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
In the AMZN thread I recall reading that their acquisition pace is slowing, also they use the contractor's that low bid. I think AMZN has a 'fleet' of around 40 right now, good size but not someone that will order 100 new build freighters.


You don't understand Amazon if you think it is not a company that wouldn't make an order tripling their fleet size with new builds.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:28 am

T4thH wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I have not heard anything about a new A330F. The only thing I now about is, that Airbus has not given up on offering a freighter. The A330 p2f just gets into swing several conversions, both -300 and -200 are on order.

A changed wing could make sense, if it would be on offer for the passenger A330 too.
But to get to the next gate size down, the neo would have to fold 12 m, 6 on each side and the ceo 10.3 m 5.15 on each side, that would be huge folding sections.
Could a wing with folding wingtips a plus for the MRTT?
I have my doubts about seeing a A330 with a folding wing, we can hardly call sections of 5 or 6 m wingtips.

I can easily believe a rumor about a new version of an A330F. That bird is still at an MTOW of 233t. Perhaps we could see a A330-300F with a MTOW of 251t.
Or an A330-800F with an MTOW of 251t. Both with normal wings.

I am on your site. I see a good chance for a A330 800 or 900 freighter version, but I am not sure to see both; I fear, there is no market which will justify the project costs to develop and certify both.
And no, the freighter market will never justify a further developments like a A330-1000 or a folding wing; with luck, they can sell 200 for the mid size market of the 500 new build freighters in the next 20 years.

And no, the MRTT does neither justify a 1000 version and of course NEVER a new wing. The Neo wing is unusable for the MRTT. They are happy with the old Ceo A330/A340 wing, as at the outer former A340 engine positions the fuel pods are located and there is the space to implement all the fuel pipes, former used for the outer A340 engines. It is just like this A330/340 wing has been constructed for the MRTT fuel tanker, a benefit, no other jet in the world has. This old wing is one of the main reasons, why the MRTT is such a success. This wing is like "god mode" for a tanker and it is easy to see, why it is so superior in comparison to the B767 tanker versions, they just never have had any issues to implement all of the fueling systems.
Perhaps they will once implement the A330 Neo engines in the MRTT but they will never change the old A330/340 wing.
And no, there is a reason, why the MRTT is a A220-200/800 in size and not a A330-300/900. It needs the range of the A330-200/800, it shall additional transport heavy freight and not light weight parcels. It just does not need the volume of the A330-300/900.


The A340 and A330 wing are largely the same. The only difference is that the A340 has the plumbing for the second engine and some reinforcements. The engine attachment on the A340 and the attachment for the refueling pod are in the same place, but are not the same.
If there will ever be a neo MRTT, Airbus will have to start with the neo wing and add reinforcements, plumbing and the attachment point for the refueling pod, the ceo wing will not carry the T7000.

Where did I talk about a -300/900 sized MRTT? I was only contemplating if folding wingtips would be an advantage for the MRTT. Our USA friends made a big deal out of the to big wingspan of the KC-45. Of course folding wingtips would only available for the MRTT, if it would be done for the normal A330.
 
morrisond
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:17 am

We always hear about how efficiency is not a big deal.

Instead of a folding wing how about a truncated wing like Boeing proposed for the 787-3 with a big vertical blended winglet to get down to the MD-11 52M wingspan?

Would the be a super huge investment?

How efficient could it be?

Maybe that is what the pilot saw - the blended winglet was so large and vertical it looked like it folded.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:44 am

Money is no object to either UPS or Amazon. Remember the stupid 727-100 Rolls Royce reengine project that UPS performed. I doubt it would cost billions to make the wingtips fold.

I would love to see this happen. A339 would be a wonderful replacement for MD11 imho.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:51 am

A388 wrote:
This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

A388

Right, because we load the planes in SDF and then fly them right back to SDF. What about the gateways they feed?

Wing span absolutely matters, if anything it hurts the integrators even more than the airlines because our sorts are so much more concentrated than the passenger airlines. Space is at a premium now, never mind when you start adding these kind of aircraft in numbers. This isn’t like LH or KE Cargo who can stagger and adjust their flight schedules to find a spot on the ramp. If we get an A330 sized aircraft at my fairly large gateway we lose several parking positions if we have multiple on the ground. And we see MD’s and 767s daily.

FX is in the same boat. Each parking position is planned to the minute off both company’s night sorts and quickly the day sorts. Airbus could easily win a bunch of orders between the two companies with folding wingtips, but is the investment worth it? I’ll save that for the bean counters
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:50 am

According to Planespotters.net there are 116 active MD-11's. Of those, 57 are with FedEx and 37 with UPS. Western Global has 11, Lufthansa 10 and Global Africa Aviation with 1.

Lufthansa is in the process of retiring their MD-11F fleet by the end of 2020, with the replacement being B777F's owned by them, or partner, Aero Logic. FedEx is adding 777F's to replace MD-11F's on long-haul routes & is using 763ERF's to replace MD-10's and older A306F's. Western Global & Global African buy used frames, so they aren't good targets. Therefore, this probably trims the direct replacement market for MD-11F's to around 50 to 100 airframes. I don't think that is enough of a market to launch a new re-engined variant (764XF), a folding-wingtip modded A330F, or the all-new A338F.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:28 am

Devilfish wrote:
Received wisdom on this board describes the A338 as eminently suitable for the freighter role. Maybe the "proposed A330F" cited in the OP could refer to Airbus swapping the current wingtip on the A338 for a folding one and beefing up the main deck :?:

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... 0-800.html

the model will depend on uplift, Range Engines and cost, If the 767-4F needs no modifications to fit into any gate or loading area? And has the range and uplift?
Then it will be a winner. Should Airbus build the 338F and the price is right? Then they might very well have a winner. But I believe it will come down to Cost per hour to operate,
 
tommy1808
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:53 am

T4thH wrote:
So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs


I am not sure frankensteining the A330-900 with the A332F cargo equipment and the A345 fuse extensions will be a multibillion project. It may just have the 2 billion price tag the NEO had....

And that'll be good for 6 LD3 and 2 pallets (oh, and probably the only regional WB with a shot to safe money vs. A MAX10 or A321N).

Best regards
Thomas
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VSMUT
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs


I am not sure frankensteining the A330-900 with the A332F cargo equipment and the A345 fuse extensions will be a multibillion project. It may just have the 2 billion price tag the NEO had....

And that'll be good for 6 LD3 and 2 pallets (oh, and probably the only regional WB with a shot to safe money vs. A MAX10 or A321N).

Best regards
Thomas


A simple stretch with no other modifications should not be too expensive. Around 100 orders could probably pay for the development costs.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Revelation wrote:
T4thH wrote:
OK, to clarify some points and to stop all silly discussions early:

Boeing forecast for 2019 to 2039.
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/commercial/market/commercial-market-outlook/assets/downloads/cmo-sept-2019-report-final.pdf

Please check page 30. Forecast for freighter jets (Important: Jets and not turboprops, so only jets!): 2820 jets.
Of them, 1780 will be conversions.
1040 will be new build and these will be only widebodies (there will be only smallbady conversions, no new build).

Of the 1040, just 540 will be new build large widebodoies.
500 will be new medium size widebodies.

1040 new build freighters, these are just only 51 new build freighters per year in the next 20 years globally.

So, whenever someone comes with a story like A330 with folding tips, A330 -1000 F version, so always, there will be a big development project just only for a freighter jet subtype with billions of development and project costs; Just always remind, there is just a market for only 500 or only 540 jets globally in next 20 years. And a 100% market share for such a development can not be expected. How many hundreds of jets have to be sold, to get back the billions of project costs? More than 500?

I guess this also kills off the 764F-with-GEnX thing too, sigh.

The thing I had a hard time getting past is why would AMZN be buying new build freighters when they have their contractors buying and converting their own 763s?

Seems AMZN is glad to not own or operate the airplanes, and can play the contractors off each other if any of them get too greedy.


Amazon will be playing them off each other, greedy or not.
 
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keesje
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:58 am

A cargo or MRTT version of the A330F or MRTT can be expected but the folding tips sounds unlikely. As said cargo aircraft is relatively low revenue compared to passenger aircraft. You are competing with converted 10-15 yr old aircraft.

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morrisond
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:04 pm

morrisond wrote:
We always hear about how efficiency is not a big deal.

Instead of a folding wing how about a truncated wing like Boeing proposed for the 787-3 with a big vertical blended winglet to get down to the MD-11 52M wingspan?

Would the be a super huge investment?

How efficient could it be?

Maybe that is what the pilot saw - the blended winglet was so large and vertical it looked like it folded.


It's interesting that the 787-3 took the 787-8/9/10 wing from 60M down to 52M just like they would need to take the A330 down from 60M to 52M to fit into gates.

52M is also the wingspan of the 764.



With the NEO engines this would still make the A330 quite efficient compared to an Old Engine 763/764 sized freighter.

This sounds exactly like what Boeing is thinking of - putting the GENx on the 764 - for the DC-10/MD-11 replacement market to compete with an 52m truncated wingspan A330 NEO with no folding tips?

How would an GENx 764 compare with an 52M 330 NEO - in terms of Volume able to be lifted, weight able to be lifted, Range and efficiency?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:07 pm

I think a 351t A330neoF is a certainty at some point. Why not? The work required has mostly been done for the A332F.

I also see a neo MRTT. Acknowledging the points about plumbing and attachment points made above, I am sure Airbus will have considered these when creating the neo wing. Recall that the US tanker competition went to the Airbus 332-based offering first, later rescinded. There is at least as much potential for a "made in Mobile" Airbus in the next 2 tranches of US tanker procurement as in the global F market. The MRTT has been a big success outside the US in terms of penetration of the available market, much more so than the 332F which has struggled. The only argument against "neo-ing" the MRTT could be that low utilisation does not justify the extra cost of a neo over a ceo.

Airbus has some choices to make:

1 Base on A338 (inter-continental, payload weight-focus), A339 (intermediate), or stretch (intra-continental payload volume-focus)

2 Activation or not of the centre fuel tank - a customer option?

3 Addressing the ramp space challenges. Can the financing of airport infrastructure changes be baked into a sufficiently compelling offer from Airbus to UPS et al?

4 A folding wing. That would surely add weight as well as cost, neither are desirable. Conceptually applicable for an A338 "lite" concept in the NMA space, if capable of using A321 gates, but really a much lighter A322 would be better and simpler. So I doubt it will happen before Airbus builds an A330 successor.
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:18 pm

morrisond wrote:
morrisond wrote:
We always hear about how efficiency is not a big deal.

Instead of a folding wing how about a truncated wing like Boeing proposed for the 787-3 with a big vertical blended winglet to get down to the MD-11 52M wingspan?

Would the be a super huge investment?

How efficient could it be?

Maybe that is what the pilot saw - the blended winglet was so large and vertical it looked like it folded.


It's interesting that the 787-3 took the 787-8/9/10 wing from 60M down to 52M just like they would need to take the A330 down from 60M to 52M to fit into gates.

52M is also the wingspan of the 764.



With the NEO engines this would still make the A330 quite efficient compared to an Old Engine 763/764 sized freighter.

This sounds exactly like what Boeing is thinking of - putting the GENx on the 764 - for the DC-10/MD-11 replacement market to compete with an 52m truncated wingspan A330 NEO with no folding tips?

How would an GENx 764 compare with an 52M 330 NEO - in terms of Volume able to be lifted, weight able to be lifted, Range and efficiency?

The 787 wing was designed for that though, with the end being either a giant raked wingtip (788), blended wingtips (783), or an even longer raked wingtip (789, plan dropped). The A330 wing was not designed to be cut down to 52m. You can’t just truncate a wing and expect it to be good and efficient.

Truncated wings or folding wingtips require an all new wing. Think about it for a second, that basically invalidates all the money and effort that Airbus has spent on the current Neo (which was focused on integrating the larger engines on the current wing). They are not now going to invest in an all new wing a year after the Neo entered service.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Money is no object to either UPS or Amazon. Remember the stupid 727-100 Rolls Royce reengine project that UPS performed. I doubt it would cost billions to make the wingtips fold.

You would be wrong, it would cost billions to make the A330's 60M wingspan fit 52M gates using folding wingtips and would tie up development resources Airbus could use on opportunities with much greater profit potential. Note that 777x folding wing tips were designed in right from the start and so static and dynamic load analysis was done knowing the wingtips would be a factor and no ailerons/slats extend past the fold. A330 ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... LYv1.1.png ) would need extensive revision to accommodate the fold and putting heavy hinge/actuator that far out on the wing would need to be accounted for.
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Money is no object to either UPS or Amazon. Remember the stupid 727-100 Rolls Royce reengine project that UPS performed. I doubt it would cost billions to make the wingtips fold.

You would be wrong, it would cost billions to make the A330's 60M wingspan fit 52M gates using folding wingtips and would tie up development resources Airbus could use on opportunities with much greater profit potential. Note that 777x folding wing tips were designed in right from the start and so static and dynamic load analysis was done knowing the wingtips would be a factor and no ailerons/slats extend past the fold. A330 ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... LYv1.1.png ) would need extensive revision to accommodate the fold and putting heavy hinge/actuator that far out on the wing would need to be accounted for.

First, to Steelchair, UPS and Amazon are notorious on how tight fisted they are with money.

Revaluation is correct that this is a complete rewing. Bad information on this being likely. The FAA and EASA have become more strict, that adds cost.

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morrisond
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Money is no object to either UPS or Amazon. Remember the stupid 727-100 Rolls Royce reengine project that UPS performed. I doubt it would cost billions to make the wingtips fold.

You would be wrong, it would cost billions to make the A330's 60M wingspan fit 52M gates using folding wingtips and would tie up development resources Airbus could use on opportunities with much greater profit potential. Note that 777x folding wing tips were designed in right from the start and so static and dynamic load analysis was done knowing the wingtips would be a factor and no ailerons/slats extend past the fold. A330 ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... LYv1.1.png ) would need extensive revision to accommodate the fold and putting heavy hinge/actuator that far out on the wing would need to be accounted for.


Great picture.

With the Ailerons extending that far out onto the wing that would make it pretty hard to cut the wing down to 52M. The Ailerons on the 787 wing don't extend out as far as the A330 which would have made cutting the wing down to 52m a lot easier.

http://www.modernairliners.com/wp-conte ... r-wing.png

We should almost merge this thread with the 764 GENx thread as they both seem to be revolving around the MD-10/11 Freighter replacement market.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:13 pm

morrisond wrote:
We should almost merge this thread with the 764 GENx thread as they both seem to be revolving around the MD-10/11 Freighter replacement market.

The OP relayed a discussion with a UPS pilot (yes, I know pilots are not a great source) about replacing MD11 with either A330 with folding wing tips or 764F with GEnX.

I think an A330neo with a folding wing would be a better MD-11 replacement in terms of payload/range, but we have consensus in this thread that a folding wing tip would be prohibitively expensive.

The only scenario I could see an A330 with new wing working is if that enhanced A330 could be used for other markets i.e. it could be Airbus's MOM/NMA competitor as well as fill this package freighter role.

However if they intended to do this, it seems they wasted a lot of time and money qualifying the A330neo as-is and will be spending a lot more to bring the new product to market, and the core circular 8x A330 fuse seems to be too heavy for a NMA/MOM role.

The 764F with GEnX approach would cost a lot less but would be pretty much only suitable in a package freighter role, and doesn't seem to me to be the best use of Boeing's time and money.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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morrisond
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
morrisond wrote:
We should almost merge this thread with the 764 GENx thread as they both seem to be revolving around the MD-10/11 Freighter replacement market.

The OP relayed a discussion with a UPS pilot (yes, I know pilots are not a great source) about replacing MD11 with either A330 with folding wing tips or 764F with GEnX.

I think an A330neo with a folding wing would be a better MD-11 replacement in terms of payload/range, but we have consensus in this thread that a folding wing tip would be prohibitively expensive.

The only scenario I could see an A330 with new wing working is if that enhanced A330 could be used for other markets i.e. it could be Airbus's MOM/NMA competitor as well as fill this package freighter role.

However if they intended to do this, it seems they wasted a lot of time and money qualifying the A330neo as-is and will be spending a lot more to bring the new product to market, and the core circular 8x A330 fuse seems to be too heavy for a NMA/MOM role.

The 764F with GEnX approach would cost a lot less but would be pretty much only suitable in a package freighter role, and doesn't seem to me to be the best use of Boeing's time and money.


Would it really cost Boeing much time and Money though? The GENx's are about the same weight as RB211's - the Interface with the 747 Pylon has already been worked out - that work should translate directly to the 767 as 767 and 744 Engines were interchangeable.

Literally take the 764 and slap new engines on it. The extra thrust would give added performance that the 764 needs.

It would require flight test - but as you are not modding the wing or extending the fuselage - it should be pretty minimal - probably just stall characteristics due to the larger nacelle.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
morrisond wrote:
We should almost merge this thread with the 764 GENx thread as they both seem to be revolving around the MD-10/11 Freighter replacement market.

The OP relayed a discussion with a UPS pilot (yes, I know pilots are not a great source) about replacing MD11 with either A330 with folding wing tips or 764F with GEnX.

I think an A330neo with a folding wing would be a better MD-11 replacement in terms of payload/range, but we have consensus in this thread that a folding wing tip would be prohibitively expensive.

The only scenario I could see an A330 with new wing working is if that enhanced A330 could be used for other markets i.e. it could be Airbus's MOM/NMA competitor as well as fill this package freighter role.

However if they intended to do this, it seems they wasted a lot of time and money qualifying the A330neo as-is and will be spending a lot more to bring the new product to market, and the core circular 8x A330 fuse seems to be too heavy for a NMA/MOM role.

The 764F with GEnX approach would cost a lot less but would be pretty much only suitable in a package freighter role, and doesn't seem to me to be the best use of Boeing's time and money.


The core A300/310/330/340 fuselage brought a rather light frame with the A310, with an OEW of -200 77.4t -300 79.2t and slightly below the OEW of the 767-200 80.1t and 767-200ER 82.4 t. The A310 has furthermore the advantage of carrying the standard LD3 container.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:00 am

This is probably a stupid question but why is the 788 not considered? Is it more expensive to develop the 788F or because it's just an expansive plane. Versus "slapping" on new engines for the 764 versus 330F folding wingtips.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:38 am

PHLspecial wrote:
This is probably a stupid question but why is the 788 not considered? Is it more expensive to develop the 788F or because it's just an expansive plane. Versus "slapping" on new engines for the 764 versus 330F folding wingtips.


The 787 has a similar wing span as the A330, so the same problem with fitting on the apron and it would be not an inexpensive solution.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:57 am

A388 wrote:
This is just pure nonsense. Why on earth would any A330 full freighter need foldible wingtips to fit into current gate spaces. Cargo airplanes don't use gates and the A330 full freighter already fits where it is parked on cargo ramps. So really, where is this story coming from? Certainly not any pilot.

A388

Wait! What gives you the Idea that cargo airplanes don't ever use gates? Have you seen the Memphis FEDEX facility? or the Louisville UPS facility? They have Loading Docks that the airplane is pulled up to and Loaded out of bad weather, Yes they do load airplanes outside as well. But even ramp space is NOT unlimited especially at their primary hubs.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Rumor: New version of A330F being proposed

Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:19 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The 787 has a similar wing span as the A330, so the same problem with fitting on the apron and it would be not an inexpensive solution.

Question --- is there an inherent disadvantage to a CFRP fuse/wing that could mitigate against it being used as a freighter vs an all-metal frame :?:
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