dcajet
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Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:22 pm

Malaysia was downgraded to CAT 2 by the FAA today; it mainly affects Air Asia X's plans to add more flights to the US from Japan. MAS won't be able to codeshare with any American airline either.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mala ... SKBN1XL12O
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c933103
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:31 pm

What about other AirAsia X companies?
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leftcoast8
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:47 pm

What a atrocious fall from grace for TG and MH. So much government meddling going on in SE Asia, I wish Thailand and Malaysia (and Indonesia) took a hint from SQ/PR/VN's success
 
drdisque
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:01 pm

c933103 wrote:
What about other AirAsia X companies?


The other AirAsia X is Thai, which is also Cat II.

The Philippines and India certificates are their only ones in Cat I countries of any size, as well as the Japanese one which only has 3 frames.
 
santi319
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:59 pm

The irony of this... meanwhile you have a grounded plane because you did not do your honework, airlines in the middle east work with constant crew fatigue issues.

Money really does rule the government agencies.
 
c933103
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:50 am

drdisque wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What about other AirAsia X companies?


The other AirAsia X is Thai, which is also Cat II.

The Philippines and India certificates are their only ones in Cat I countries of any size, as well as the Japanese one which only has 3 frames.

They don't have an X for the Japan one yet and I am not sure about the others.
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Aceskywalker
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:43 am

Will this affect the one existing D7 5th freedom flight between HNL and KIX?
 
dcajet
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:05 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
Will this affect the one existing D7 5th freedom flight between HNL and KIX?


No, that one can stay as it is. But D7 won't be able to add more flight to the US, nor codeshare with any US airline until Malaysia gets upgraded back to CAT 1.
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:05 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
Will this affect the one existing D7 5th freedom flight between HNL and KIX?


Airlines are allowed to continue operating existing routes with existing equipment at the time of the downgrade. They cannot add new routes or switch aircraft types.

Because of this PR continued to operate aging A343s to the USA while taking delivery of brand new 77Ws. This struck me as perverse. The FAA had concerns about maintenance practices but forced them to continue using an aging fleet that's already been through at least one HMV instead of brand new ones straight from the factory. When the Philippines returned to Cat 1 PR did switch to the 777s.
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smartplane
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:27 am

The downgrade, where existing flights can continue to operate, is predominantly designed to encourage action by the aviation authority.

The impacts can be more far reaching. For example, it may trigger a review of insurance premiums for local carriers, and possible surcharges for foreign carriers flying to the country. In a lease or loan agreement, it may trigger a margin / risk review. May also result in a review of travel insurance premiums.
 
nethkt
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:32 am

Does this have to do with politics? The Philippines, Vietnam and India are in Cat I, seriously? I have so much questions on their maintenance records and operations at their many airports.
Let's just buy more Boeing and you will be back to Cat I in no time.
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:15 am

Do anyone know the site for FAA category list?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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afterburner
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:28 am

drdisque wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What about other AirAsia X companies?


The other AirAsia X is Thai, which is also Cat II.

The Philippines and India certificates are their only ones in Cat I countries of any size, as well as the Japanese one which only has 3 frames.

Indonesia AirAsia as well since Indonesia is also a Category 1 country.
 
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unrave
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:40 am

nethkt wrote:
Does this have to do with politics? The Philippines, Vietnam and India are in Cat I, seriously? I have so much questions on their maintenance records and operations at their many airports.
Let's just buy more Boeing and you will be back to Cat I in no time.

Have you looked at the market share of Boeing in India?
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
fessor
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:16 am

Next One to be downgrade must be Vietnam as safety there had same problem as in Thailand and it's the only country i been in where I tried ti be boarded without passing security
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:18 am

fessor wrote:
Next One to be downgrade must be Vietnam as safety there had same problem as in Thailand and it's the only country i been in where I tried ti be boarded without passing security


Vietnam was Cat 2, but returned to Cat 1 earlier this year.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:38 am

SQ789 wrote:
Do anyone know the site for FAA category list?


You can find a worksheet at this link: https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/i ... asaws.xlsx
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:01 pm

FAA should get out of this foreign regulator safety assessment business altogether. Their decisions and publicly available data never match, leading to a never-ending debate.

Latest ICAO USOAP (2016) puts Malaysia above the global average in 7/8 categories. Which itself is not valid.

In 2014, Malaysia couldn't track MH370, Couldn't conduct air accident investigation by itself UK, Australia, and other countries have to help, the regulator didn't have document templates.
IMHO is a failure in Air Nav Services, Accident Investigation and Organization categories.

Yet it scored high in ICAO 2016 audits and kept FAA Cat-1 for five more years. A downgrade in 2015-16 should have been more appropriate.

Both ICAO and FAA have to sync their data and update publicly available data prior to these announcements. We have the <secret> big picture is not cutting it.
 
flyingisthebest
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:32 pm

Ironically the FAA was the same one that was responsible for the MCAS disaster and was the last one to ground the 737MAX.
 
fessor
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:23 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
fessor wrote:
Next One to be downgrade must be Vietnam as safety there had same problem as in Thailand and it's the only country i been in where I tried ti be boarded without passing security


Vietnam was Cat 2, but returned to Cat 1 earlier this year.


And it happened this month
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:29 pm

flyingisthebest wrote:
Ironically the FAA was the same one that was responsible for the MCAS disaster and was the last one to ground the 737MAX.


What agency would you like to conduct these audits according to ICAO standards? Can you point to anything bigger and more deeply staffed than the FAA?
 
VTCIE
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:52 pm

unrave wrote:
nethkt wrote:
Does this have to do with politics? The Philippines, Vietnam and India are in Cat I, seriously? I have so much questions on their maintenance records and operations at their many airports.
Let's just buy more Boeing and you will be back to Cat I in no time.

Have you looked at the market share of Boeing in India?

How is this of relevance to the discussion? It is not like Airbus is squashing Boeing underfoot in Malaysia the way it is in India, Vietnam and the Philippines. True, there is no Vietnamese or Filipino operator of the 737, and the two main Indian 737 operators (SG and IX, not including UK’s 737s) may switch to Airbus at any time following the MAX crisis. But this problem is not there in Malaysia; both MH and OD operate it in large numbers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
What agency would you like to conduct these audits according to ICAO standards?


ICAO itself, They can pool resources globally. When UN can do nuclear energy audits, I am sure they can do these. Peer audits are just a sideshow to exert privilege.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Can you point to anything bigger and more deeply staffed than the FAA?


Total: 45000
Air Nav 15000
FSI/FSO 5000
Registrations and Licencing 25,000???

Yet there are only 45 overseeing certification at world largest aircraft manufacturer.
 
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Polot
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:13 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
What agency would you like to conduct these audits according to ICAO standards?


ICAO itself, They can pool resources globally. When UN can do nuclear energy audits, I am sure they can do these. Peer audits are just a sideshow to exert privilege.

Oh. So essentially the US (FAA) and EU (EASA). Really wouldn’t change all that much then.

Nuclear energy audits versus aviation audits are two completely different beasts. The number of countries with nuclear energy/capabilities is far lower than the number with an aviation industry (that is essentially all countries).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:29 pm

Polot wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
What agency would you like to conduct these audits according to ICAO standards?


ICAO itself, They can pool resources globally. When UN can do nuclear energy audits, I am sure they can do these. Peer audits are just a sideshow to exert privilege.

Oh. So essentially the US (FAA) and EU (EASA). Really wouldn’t change all that much then.

Nuclear energy audits versus aviation audits are two completely different beasts. The number of countries with nuclear energy/capabilities is far lower than the number with an aviation industry (that is essentially all countries).


And Japan JCAB, UK CAA, Australian CASA... Be part of ICAO team, do an honest audit and give rating.

Point is peer audits are unnecessary. When your own house is not in order, don't go point finger at others. If it is too big and deeply overstaffed use it to oversee certification.
 
hohd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Malaysia downgrade wont affect much traffic out of Malaysia as there no flights to USA and there are no plans in the future either. What it could do is increase premiums and EASA may start looking at their operations and if they downgrade then it will hurt Malaysian carriers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 pm

Except that EASA doesn't have a good kitty bad kitty binary state policy. They gather data on foreign carriers continuously in 48 countries and evaluate safety at a micro-level and impose sanctions accordingly on airlines. They just don't declare regulator is unfit.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:10 pm

hohd wrote:
Malaysia downgrade wont affect much traffic out of Malaysia as there no flights to USA and there are no plans in the future either. What it could do is increase premiums and EASA may start looking at their operations and if they downgrade then it will hurt Malaysian carriers.


Air Asia X serves the U.S. today. They have also indicated they seek to offer additional routes.

While MAS has also stated it might look at coming back to the U.S. at some point.

What the downgrade does is freeze existing service levels, while also barring codesharing to the U.S. or with U.S. carriers.
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mandala499
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
They just don't declare regulator is unfit.

They did when they banned Indonesian airlines from flying to the EU...
The airlines were banned because they saw the regulatory oversight by the country's regulator, over the listed airlines, as lacking. The ban exemptions were granted after a few years in our case for airlines that had adequate regulatory oversight resources applied to them by the regulator.
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par13del
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Except that EASA doesn't have a good kitty bad kitty binary state policy. They gather data on foreign carriers continuously in 48 countries and evaluate safety at a micro-level and impose sanctions accordingly on airlines. They just don't declare regulator is unfit.

Except this is a downgrade by the FAA on flights dealing with the USA, it affects no other nation, and since the FAA has some some credibility issues, no one else cares.
The regulators of the EU, Australia, Japan, China, and all other countries will conduct their own assessments and make their own decisions, if they do not have the resources they will hitch the horses to a larger country band wagon.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
FAA should get out of this foreign regulator safety assessment business altogether. Their decisions and publicly available data never match, leading to a never-ending debate.

Latest ICAO USOAP (2016) puts Malaysia above the global average in 7/8 categories. Which itself is not valid.

In 2014, Malaysia couldn't track MH370, Couldn't conduct air accident investigation by itself UK, Australia, and other countries have to help, the regulator didn't have document templates.
IMHO is a failure in Air Nav Services, Accident Investigation and Organization categories.

Yet it scored high in ICAO 2016 audits and kept FAA Cat-1 for five more years. A downgrade in 2015-16 should have been more appropriate.

Both ICAO and FAA have to sync their data and update publicly available data prior to these announcements. We have the <secret> big picture is not cutting it.


They have every right to assess an airline, or a nation with several airlines that fly, or want to fly to the U.S.A. There is nothing that says other nations regulators have to follow the F.A.A. lead
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:21 pm

mandala499 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
They just don't declare regulator is unfit.

They did when they banned Indonesian airlines from flying to the EU...
The airlines were banned because they saw the regulatory oversight by the country's regulator, over the listed airlines, as lacking. The ban exemptions were granted after a few years in our case for airlines that had adequate regulatory oversight resources applied to them by the regulator.


EASA SAFA monitoring and auditing is layered, if the entire system is bad, sure ban the whole country.

FAA has just one on/off switch. It is simple but doesn't fit the complex world of aviation. Just good for headline news.

USDOT can always reject new route applications on safety concerns even if the country is an open-skies partner.

How many US lives were saved by banning code-shares? Let's say difficult to answer.

How many total lives lost in aviation accidents while a country was Cat-II? Close to zero.

Fail to see the purpose of these downgrades or upgrades.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
mandala499 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
They just don't declare regulator is unfit.

They did when they banned Indonesian airlines from flying to the EU...
The airlines were banned because they saw the regulatory oversight by the country's regulator, over the listed airlines, as lacking. The ban exemptions were granted after a few years in our case for airlines that had adequate regulatory oversight resources applied to them by the regulator.


EASA SAFA monitoring and auditing is layered, if the entire system is bad, sure ban the whole country.

FAA has just one on/off switch. It is simple but doesn't fit the complex world of aviation. Just good for headline news.

USDOT can always reject new route applications on safety concerns even if the country is an open-skies partner.

How many US lives were saved by banning code-shares? Let's say difficult to answer.

How many total lives lost in aviation accidents while a country was Cat-II? Close to zero.

Fail to see the purpose of these downgrades or upgrades.


Who do you think the USDOT would get their guidance from to decide if a country or airline is unsafe to reject new routes ? :sarcastic:
 
rbavfan
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:06 pm

fessor wrote:
Next One to be downgrade must be Vietnam as safety there had same problem as in Thailand and it's the only country i been in where I tried ti be boarded without passing security


Vietnam just got theirs back after multiple years of trying. So no, they are not next.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Except that EASA doesn't have a good kitty bad kitty binary state policy. They gather data on foreign carriers continuously in 48 countries and evaluate safety at a micro-level and impose sanctions accordingly on airlines. They just don't declare regulator is unfit.


The EU had banned ops from carriers and countries in the past as well.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:50 pm

par13del wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Except that EASA doesn't have a good kitty bad kitty binary state policy. They gather data on foreign carriers continuously in 48 countries and evaluate safety at a micro-level and impose sanctions accordingly on airlines. They just don't declare regulator is unfit.

Except this is a downgrade by the FAA on flights dealing with the USA, it affects no other nation, and since the FAA has some some credibility issues, no one else cares.
The regulators of the EU, Australia, Japan, China, and all other countries will conduct their own assessments and make their own decisions, if they do not have the resources they will hitch the horses to a larger country band wagon.


I remember seeing several countries us the FAA to set their policies, with the FAA's assistance.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:18 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
FAA should get out of this foreign regulator safety assessment business altogether. Their decisions and publicly available data never match, leading to a never-ending debate.

Latest ICAO USOAP (2016) puts Malaysia above the global average in 7/8 categories. Which itself is not valid.

In 2014, Malaysia couldn't track MH370, Couldn't conduct air accident investigation by itself UK, Australia, and other countries have to help, the regulator didn't have document templates.
IMHO is a failure in Air Nav Services, Accident Investigation and Organization categories.

Yet it scored high in ICAO 2016 audits and kept FAA Cat-1 for five more years. A downgrade in 2015-16 should have been more appropriate.

Both ICAO and FAA have to sync their data and update publicly available data prior to these announcements. We have the <secret> big picture is not cutting it.


Plenty of other countries requested outside assistance in the event of accident investigations before. It would be better that way, as opposed to a country that proudly declined all assistance but ended up with a flawed investigation. And I honestly don't see how MH370 is a failure of Air Nav Services, given that all that happened after handover to Vietnamese airspace.

Fact of the matter is, there's more to this downgrade than meets the eye, given the dynamics in play here in Malaysia. Remember, this country went through a change of government for the first time in 60 years in 2018 and the new ministers are trying to make their mark quickly. Maybe that has something to do with it.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:52 am

Here is the best flip-flop on tape about the ability of oversight. Looking back at history he shouldn't have given that interview.

Anchor: Why did you downgrade:
FAA: "The issues we look at are the ability of the authority....to oversee the industry to ensure they are in compliance with ICAO standards, and so what that means is they have the systems in place, do they appropriate staffing and appropriate technical expertise. so that they can provide the oversight of the carriers"

Anchor: We are seeing many problems with both Airbus and Boeing are there any checks and balances
FAA: "Our highest priority is to maintain highest levels of safety of the aviation system, we are working with Boeing, any new aircraft is going to push technological innovation..."

Anchor: Is this something though shouldn't happen in the first place
FAA: "Aviation is always been about innovation and as part of that we are pushing technological boundaries, and these aircraft represent latest evolution in aviation tech, and we should expect that as we try new manufacturing processes, new design processes bring in new products into the market, the real question is ensuring you have the technical experts, you the appropriate levels of safety in place so that as issue emerge they are dealt with promptly and expeditiously"

https://tinyurl.com/wx5vxuk
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to CAT II by the FAA

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:23 am

nethkt wrote:
Does this have to do with politics? The Philippines, Vietnam and India are in Cat I, seriously? I have so much questions on their maintenance records and operations at their many airports.
Let's just buy more Boeing and you will be back to Cat I in no time.


This is done pursuant to ICAO standards though. The FAA determined that Malaysia wasn't compliant with ICAO standards. EASA can be even harsher than the FAA...for instance, when Kazakhstan carriers were barred from the EU, Air Astana escaped because their planes are on the Aruba registry and thus subject to Dutch inspection.

For AirAsia X, this means that they can't use the A339 to HNL.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:27 am

Reuters has more details.

The Civil Aviation Authority of Malaysia (CAAM) said it hoped to restore a Category 1 rating swiftly. “We are confident we can attain it in 12 months,” CAAM board member Afzal Abdul Rahim told reporters.
He said CAAM needed to address 33 weaknesses found by the FAA, including those related to the technical certification of officers, regulatory gaps and CAAM’s structural issues.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mala ... SKBN1XM1C1
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:01 pm

American Airlines has removed its AA code from flights operated by MAS.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3005
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Re: Malaysia downgraded to category-2 in the FAA safety assessment

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:09 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Except that EASA doesn't have a good kitty bad kitty binary state policy. They gather data on foreign carriers continuously in 48 countries and evaluate safety at a micro-level and impose sanctions accordingly on airlines. They just don't declare regulator is unfit.


EASA does countries as well, with exceptions occasionally, usually with respect to Africa, Venezuela, and the CIS. An example of this was Kazakhstan until recently, Air Astana escaped the blacklist because its aircraft are P4 instead of UP.

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