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lowwkjax
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Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:10 pm

Starting 3/29/2020 with a 4 weekly service, to be upgauged to 6 weekly by mid April.

OS091 VIE 1:25pm - BOS 4:30pm
OS092 BOS 6:15pm - VIE 08:25am +1
B767-300
 
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tlecam
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:15 pm

Wow! Welcome but unexpected.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:26 pm

In the Swiss report about Geneva long haul, VIE was a top 5 yielding destination from BOS.

However it was it was only 30-40 PDEW.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:29 pm

So this is where the capacity from MIA is being redirected to?
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:32 pm

lowwkjax wrote:
Starting 3/29/2020 with a 4 weekly service, to be upgauged to 6 weekly by mid April.

OS091 VIE 1:25pm - BOS 4:30pm
OS092 BOS 6:15pm - VIE 08:25am +1
B767-300


Aggressive start for this route, any idea of which days it’s initially running on?
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
avi8
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:38 pm

Dang. I wonder if anyone is making money out of Boston these days with so much competition on the TATL market. Wishing B6 the best of luck.
avi8
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:47 pm

Could it be that they struggled with gate space in BOS? The flight leaves some three hours after their last North American destination. Connections going there are not great.
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:49 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
In the Swiss report about Geneva long haul, VIE was a top 5 yielding destination from BOS.

However it was it was only 30-40 PDEW.


That's not a bad number considering how expensive the flights can be, which would explain the high yields.
Also, despite the distance that separates the 2 cities, MUC competes with VIE for some parts of Austria. My family is from south of Salzburg and we always use MUC. Although MUC is 100Km closer than VIE, the traffic around Munich nearly cancels out that advantage.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out considering LH is introducing the A380 on the MUC-BOS route.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:11 pm

Is it going to be with a 767 or 777?
 
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SASViking
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:15 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Is it going to be with a 767 or 777?

Read post #1, there's a quite big hint ;) :duck:
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:31 pm

SASViking wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Is it going to be with a 767 or 777?

Read post #1, there's a quite big hint ;) :duck:



Sorry haha, I skipped right over that because I thought it was part of the timings. I wonder where the 767 is coming from then? EWR? IAD?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Interview with CCO Andreas Ott on the why and how (using Google Translate):

AviationNetOnline: Why was Boston chosen as the new long-haul destination by Austrian Airlines?

Andreas Otto: We see a lot of potential in Boston. Its metropolitan area is among the 10 largest in the US and one of the world's most powerful economic regions. Especially in the field of higher education, technology and finance, Boston is a leader.


AviationNetOnline: With what percentage of passengers do you expect for this flight in Vienna?

Andreas Otto: We expect a ratio of 60 percent transfer passengers and 40 percent local traffic to and from Boston in our Vienna hub. There will be few passengers change, as there are hardly any transfer options that fit our flight. On the other hand, passengers traveling from Boston via our home airport Vienna have a variety of options through our dense network in Central and Eastern Europe.


So definitely not just vacationers or pure OD traffic.

https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... att-miami/
Last edited by Dieuwer on Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Nice but definitely unexpected add! I thought LH was satisfied pushing all it's customers through MUC from BOS.
"If you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline"-Richard Branson
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:45 pm

Fares will be loaded this weekend?
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:53 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
Nice but definitely unexpected add! I thought LH was satisfied pushing all it's customers through MUC from BOS.

That was the plan IMO but MUC is full and the 3rd runway is nowhere in sight, which is a big reason why MUC-BOS is being upgauged to A380.
 
VS11
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:55 pm

About time! Austrian has a good network to smaller Central and Eastern European cities, and Vienna has lots of services from the likes of Wizz, and is also Vienna! You can go to Prague, Budapest and Bratislava from Vienna.
 
stylo777
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:57 pm

massive LH Group presence in BOS during summer months with:
- 2x daily LH FRA-BOS (744/333)
- 1x daily LH MUC-BOS (388)
- 2x daily LX ZRH-BOS (333/343) and now
- 6x weekly OS VIE-BOS (76W)

On a sidenote, OS will shift this capacity from the cancellation of their MIA route as well as the upgauge of ORD to daily 772. LAX will see also a reduction by 2 weekly frequencies.
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:09 pm

22J/18PE config on their 763. BOS will fill the front cabin.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:12 pm

And the BOS adds continue! Will be nice to see yet another tail at Terminal E.
@DadCelo
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:16 pm

Is this one of those routes where the cargo can help make it profitable?
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
TheChickenman
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:22 pm

Blerg wrote:
Could it be that they struggled with gate space in BOS? The flight leaves some three hours after their last North American destination. Connections going there are not great.

If it was because of gate space, it's odd that they pushed the flight to a later time. E tends to be not very busy in the morning, while mid afternoon sees a lot of Delta arrivals from Europe plus the Asian arrivals. My guess would be 767 availability from the Vienna side, though that doesn't sound convincing to me either.
 
iyerhari
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:27 pm

Another add. Finally a *A launch after a longtime in BOS! Unexpected but a great launch.

https://onemileatatime.com/austrian-airlines-boston/
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:29 pm

TheChickenman wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Could it be that they struggled with gate space in BOS? The flight leaves some three hours after their last North American destination. Connections going there are not great.

If it was because of gate space, it's odd that they pushed the flight to a later time. E tends to be not very busy in the morning, while mid afternoon sees a lot of Delta arrivals from Europe plus the Asian arrivals. My guess would be 767 availability from the Vienna side, though that doesn't sound convincing to me either.


Thing is that this flight doesn't connect to the overnight flights, especially those coming in from the Middle East and many Balkan destinations. This one connects to those cities that leave Vienna early in the morning and the list is not as spectacular.
 
stylo777
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:00 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
Is this one of those routes where the cargo can help make it profitable?

Don't think that they would establish this flight aiming for cargo, but it surely helps (as everywhere else...). Austrians' cargo is managed by LH Cargo and with 3 more flights available (2x FRA, 1x MUC), cargo would be shifted around anyways.

The key to success in my opinion will be the relatively small premium section and "only" 168 eco seats on a rather short longhaul flight. You probably don't need that much of effort to fill this; it does it by itself.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:05 pm

Frequency Starts off 2-4-6-7 until mid-April when it goes x1 for the 6 weekly.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:34 pm

I don't see this route working out economically for OS. With LH and LX in the market for flights to many of the same destinations OS an connect pax through from VIE, the margins are likely going to be diluted across the group's portfolio though to be fair LH and LX have been at BOS for decades. If OS could not make MIA work (it is being cut to make a plane available for BOS) I would think the reason is the same. LH and LX fly to MIA and OS in the mix just chips away at profitability enough.
 
B752OS
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Star Alliance will have non-stop service at least 4 times a week to Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Lisbon, Istanbul, Copenhagen and now Vienna next summer in Boston. Very impressive.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:08 pm

Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.
a.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:32 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.


I Thought that all these new routes are actually because of increased business between the U.S and Europe or is it just because they need to put the aircraft somewhere rather then just parking it?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:33 pm

lesfalls wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.


I Thought that all these new routes are actually because of increased business between the U.S and Europe or is it just because they need to put the aircraft somewhere rather then just parking it?


A lot of it is just airlines trying to one-up each other and capacity dump, especially against Norwegian.
a.
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:16 pm

B752OS wrote:
Star Alliance will have non-stop service at least 4 times a week to Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Lisbon, Istanbul, Copenhagen and now Vienna next summer in Boston. Very impressive.

Too bad they can't figure out a way to add service to London (largest intl market from BOS), and Asia (I'm looking at you ANA).

MAH4546 wrote:
A lot of it is just airlines trying to one-up each other and capacity dump, especially against Norwegian.

I'm not sure that your statement is entirely correct. I would think that LH has some say into OS's network planning. With so many flights to BOS already and no direct competition there has to be some value in it, for LH to allow OS to start this route. It's not like DY will be starting TATL service from Germany/Switzerland/Austria any time soon if ever.
You may have a case in regards to the DL/AF/KL additions because DY is competing head-to-head on routes where those airlines are the incumbent and have long existed without competition but I don't think that is true for the LH group.
 
EADSYABSOB73857
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:30 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.


Please provide data to back up your claim... I have seen hard numbers on this forum that totally contradict your assertion- if my memory serves me correctly, the only European routes that have struggled during peak season out of BOS have been BOS-CPH on SK and BOS-MAN on VS (both have come in sub 70% for load factors).... One or two airlines getting into a battle over a single market (I.e. B6 and DL) is common, but over a half dozen airlines doing a capacity dump in a major market is not reality and makes no sense business-wise. All these airlines wouldn’t be adding capacity if it didn’t make business sense and the demand wasn’t warranted- they wouldn’t all get into a knife fight with one another. VS4ever, can you chime in given the data you’ve provided?
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:36 pm

I think it's really, REALLY unfair that they came to Boston before Detroit. :stirthepot:
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
MAH4546
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:04 am

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.


Please provide data to back up your claim... I have seen hard numbers on this forum that totally contradict your assertion- if my memory serves me correctly, the only European routes that have struggled during peak season out of BOS have been BOS-CPH on SK and BOS-MAN on VS (both have come in sub 70% for load factors).... One or two airlines getting into a battle over a single market (I.e. B6 and DL) is common, but over a half dozen airlines doing a capacity dump in a major market is not reality and makes no sense business-wise. All these airlines wouldn’t be adding capacity if it didn’t make business sense and the demand wasn’t warranted- they wouldn’t all get into a knife fight with one another. VS4ever, can you chime in given the data you’ve provided?


You are conflating filling flights with making a profit.

The planes are filling. That's not the problem. You can fly a daily plane between Miami and Krakow or Los Angeles and Bucharest or Boston and Riga, and the planes will fill despite the smaller market size. Low prices inflate demand, but the low prices aren't sustainable.
a.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:36 am

MAH4546 wrote:
EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Surprised airlines keep adding all this capacity to North American markets that can't handle it. Boston, SF, LA, Miami, etc. are all way over-served. And now small markets like Denver have too much capacity. This is not sustainable.


Please provide data to back up your claim... I have seen hard numbers on this forum that totally contradict your assertion- if my memory serves me correctly, the only European routes that have struggled during peak season out of BOS have been BOS-CPH on SK and BOS-MAN on VS (both have come in sub 70% for load factors).... One or two airlines getting into a battle over a single market (I.e. B6 and DL) is common, but over a half dozen airlines doing a capacity dump in a major market is not reality and makes no sense business-wise. All these airlines wouldn’t be adding capacity if it didn’t make business sense and the demand wasn’t warranted- they wouldn’t all get into a knife fight with one another. VS4ever, can you chime in given the data you’ve provided?


You are conflating filling flights with making a profit.

The planes are filling. That's not the problem. You can fly a daily plane between Miami and Krakow or Los Angeles and Bucharest or Boston and Riga, and the planes will fill despite the smaller market size. Low prices inflate demand, but the low prices aren't sustainable.


Apparently, unsustainable low prices don't matter as long as you have shareholders who are willing to pony up endless amounts of money to prop up your flying business. Go ask Norwegian if you don't believe it. ;)
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:52 am

MAH4546 wrote:
The planes are filling. That's not the problem. You can fly a daily plane between Miami and Krakow or Los Angeles and Bucharest or Boston and Riga, and the planes will fill despite the smaller market size. Low prices inflate demand, but the low prices aren't sustainable.


But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.
 
ASA
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:11 am

Congrats to BOS on yet another TATL add! :thumbsup:

Just the other day, I was thinking we don't still have any Eastern European service and if LOT will add Boston at some point ... and here comes Austrian!!! I know VIE is not considered Eastern Europe ... but it is the doorway to the East ... the Ottomans would agree too! :duck:
 
MAH4546
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:47 am

airbazar wrote:
But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.


$600 to Paris is not economically sustainable. You can't make money on it. Boston at least has the advantage of being so close, which certainly helps, because it's to the point where those fares are $600 from Boston or California or Florida. But there's is still way too much Boston-Europe capacity.
a.
 
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SASViking
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:49 am

airbazar wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
The planes are filling. That's not the problem. You can fly a daily plane between Miami and Krakow or Los Angeles and Bucharest or Boston and Riga, and the planes will fill despite the smaller market size. Low prices inflate demand, but the low prices aren't sustainable.


But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.

Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.
WOW=Gone
Zoom=Gone
FlyGlobespan=Gone
Thomas Cook=Gone
Primera Air=Gone
Norwegian=Really struggling financially
Just to name a few.
It's generally the Premium cabins that makes airlines earn money on TATL.
You've also missed some quite important points about your arguments regarding BOS-Cali vs. BOS-Europe.
It's a lot cheaper to operate a 737/A320-series aircraft on a 5-6 hour flight than it is to operate a 767/A330/777/787/A350 etc. aircraft on a 7+ flight. More crew, more fuel etc.
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
dtremit
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:00 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.


$600 to Paris is not economically sustainable. You can't make money on it. Boston at least has the advantage of being so close, which certainly helps, because it's to the point where those fares are $600 from Boston or California or Florida. But there's is still way too much Boston-Europe capacity.


None of those prices are sustainable long term, probably (certainly not the $500 flight to BKK). But a TATL flight isn't filled entirely with $600 tickets, and a BOS-CDG has a lot more potential to make money up front than a BOS-LAX flight does.

Ultimately, though, BOS-CDG is only ~30% further than BOS-SFO, and even ORD-CDG is only ~50% longer. There's no reason fares shouldn't scale accordingly in a healthy market.

The reality is that TATL flights have likely subsidized shorthaul flights for European flag carriers for years in the face of shorthaul LCC competition. That's not going to be possible for much longer.
 
dtremit
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:05 pm

SASViking wrote:
Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.
WOW=Gone
Zoom=Gone
FlyGlobespan=Gone
Thomas Cook=Gone
Primera Air=Gone
Norwegian=Really struggling financially
Just to name a few.
It's generally the Premium cabins that makes airlines earn money on TATL.
You've also missed some quite important points about your arguments regarding BOS-Cali vs. BOS-Europe.
It's a lot cheaper to operate a 737/A320-series aircraft on a 5-6 hour flight than it is to operate a 767/A330/777/787/A350 etc. aircraft on a 7+ flight. More crew, more fuel etc.


Sure. But put a premium cabin on a A321XLR, and that dynamic changes overnight. Way more profit potential on that plane than on anything flying to California.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:30 pm

SASViking wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
The planes are filling. That's not the problem. You can fly a daily plane between Miami and Krakow or Los Angeles and Bucharest or Boston and Riga, and the planes will fill despite the smaller market size. Low prices inflate demand, but the low prices aren't sustainable.


But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.

Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.
WOW=Gone
Zoom=Gone
FlyGlobespan=Gone
Thomas Cook=Gone
Primera Air=Gone
Norwegian=Really struggling financially
Just to name a few.
It's generally the Premium cabins that makes airlines earn money on TATL.
You've also missed some quite important points about your arguments regarding BOS-Cali vs. BOS-Europe.
It's a lot cheaper to operate a 737/A320-series aircraft on a 5-6 hour flight than it is to operate a 767/A330/777/787/A350 etc. aircraft on a 7+ flight. More crew, more fuel etc.


I've flown BOS-LHR on BA for $350rt, BOS-MUC-CPH on LH for $340rt (all earlier this year) and am flying MIA-CDG on AA for $242rt (all USD). I think you'd consider these airlines "healthy" no?
@DadCelo
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:45 pm

SASViking wrote:
Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.

DL, VS, BA are all doing really well. Delta especially. My family and I flew BOS-LIS-BOS with DL for $400 last Summer. The year before we flew to LHR with VS for $500.
So just because the LCC's are still figuring out how to do TATL it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable for the network carriers. I still maintain that there's a bubble in the TATL and fares are too high. Time will tell.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:50 pm

dtremit wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.


$600 to Paris is not economically sustainable. You can't make money on it. Boston at least has the advantage of being so close, which certainly helps, because it's to the point where those fares are $600 from Boston or California or Florida. But there's is still way too much Boston-Europe capacity.


None of those prices are sustainable long term, probably (certainly not the $500 flight to BKK). But a TATL flight isn't filled entirely with $600 tickets, and a BOS-CDG has a lot more potential to make money up front than a BOS-LAX flight does.

Ultimately, though, BOS-CDG is only ~30% further than BOS-SFO, and even ORD-CDG is only ~50% longer. There's no reason fares shouldn't scale accordingly in a healthy market.

The reality is that TATL flights have likely subsidized shorthaul flights for European flag carriers for years in the face of shorthaul LCC competition. That's not going to be possible for much longer.


It’s way more expensive per mile to operate TATL flights—nav fees, taxes, wide body operating costs, slots in the EU. It adds up.
 
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SASViking
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:16 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
SASViking wrote:
airbazar wrote:

But are they really low prices or are we just too accustomed to overblown prices on TATL routes? Just because airlines have been robbing us blind with high prices on TATL routes it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable.
Why should it cost $600-$1000 or more to fly to Paris when it only costs $300 or less to fly to California, and for only $500'ish I can go all the way to Bangkok. Yes, you can go on kayak.com right now and book a r/t JFK-BKK-JFK for $517 with ANA for next Summer.

Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.
WOW=Gone
Zoom=Gone
FlyGlobespan=Gone
Thomas Cook=Gone
Primera Air=Gone
Norwegian=Really struggling financially
Just to name a few.
It's generally the Premium cabins that makes airlines earn money on TATL.
You've also missed some quite important points about your arguments regarding BOS-Cali vs. BOS-Europe.
It's a lot cheaper to operate a 737/A320-series aircraft on a 5-6 hour flight than it is to operate a 767/A330/777/787/A350 etc. aircraft on a 7+ flight. More crew, more fuel etc.


I've flown BOS-LHR on BA for $350rt, BOS-MUC-CPH on LH for $340rt (all earlier this year) and am flying MIA-CDG on AA for $242rt (all USD). I think you'd consider these airlines "healthy" no?

You missed one important very word in my Statement. "Only".
BA, LH and AA do not only have low prices on TATL. They have a very small amount of very cheap seats just to fill up the planes. They don't earn any money on such prices. Everyone one else on those flights have basically paid the fare for you
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
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SASViking
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:20 pm

airbazar wrote:
SASViking wrote:
Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.

DL, VS, BA are all doing really well. Delta especially. My family and I flew BOS-LIS-BOS with DL for $400 last Summer. The year before we flew to LHR with VS for $500.
So just because the LCC's are still figuring out how to do TATL it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable for the network carriers. I still maintain that there's a bubble in the TATL and fares are too high. Time will tell.

You also missed one very important word in my statement. VS or DL have made zero money on such fares. They've a tiny amount of seats for that price to fill up the flights. Those you paid the higher fares in all cabins have paid for you
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Blerg
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:22 pm

They seem to be increasing Chicago from 5 to 7 and it will be exclusively operated by the 777.

As for Boston, I really do wonder how long this adventure will last before they suspended it, especially with that departure time from Vienna. Also, not only is the Balkan community modest in Boston, but their flight doesn't even cover all of the peninsula with convenient times.
 
airbazar
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:51 pm

SASViking wrote:
airbazar wrote:
SASViking wrote:
Yes, it still means that lower prices are unsustainable. Name just one airline only with low prices on TATL that also is a healthy airline.

DL, VS, BA are all doing really well. Delta especially. My family and I flew BOS-LIS-BOS with DL for $400 last Summer. The year before we flew to LHR with VS for $500.
So just because the LCC's are still figuring out how to do TATL it doesn't mean lower prices are unsustainable for the network carriers. I still maintain that there's a bubble in the TATL and fares are too high. Time will tell.

You also missed one very important word in my statement. VS or DL have made zero money on such fares. They've a tiny amount of seats for that price to fill up the flights. Those you paid the higher fares in all cabins have paid for you

I did not miss it. I just don't believe your statement.
1) How do you know they have made zero money? Given their financials I doubt they are operating long haul routes where they make zero money.
2) It's not a tiny amount of seats. It's small but large enough for me and others to find them. Every year. All airlines do that.
3) Revenue management applies to everyone. Likewise, DY and other carriers also have passengers who pay higher fares in all cabins. In fact DY is usually the most expensive TATL carrier out of BOS on the routes that they operate, in Y which is why I have never flown with them.
The point is many airlines, in fact the majority flying TATL out of BOS are profitable whether you like it or not. The ones that aren't it has more to do with their poor management than the fares they are charging. DY and TAP come to mind.
 
dtremit
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
dtremit wrote:

None of those prices are sustainable long term, probably (certainly not the $500 flight to BKK). But a TATL flight isn't filled entirely with $600 tickets, and a BOS-CDG has a lot more potential to make money up front than a BOS-LAX flight does.

Ultimately, though, BOS-CDG is only ~30% further than BOS-SFO, and even ORD-CDG is only ~50% longer. There's no reason fares shouldn't scale accordingly in a healthy market.

The reality is that TATL flights have likely subsidized shorthaul flights for European flag carriers for years in the face of shorthaul LCC competition. That's not going to be possible for much longer.


It’s way more expensive per mile to operate TATL flights—nav fees, taxes, wide body operating costs, slots in the EU. It adds up.


More expensive, yes -- but mostly it's background noise up against the real costs of the flight.
  • Historically, the price discrepancy has still been there if you compared fares to fares, with taxes excluded.
  • Widebody costs aren't relevant to airlines not flying widebodies, and within five years there will be very few TATL routes that can't be flown with narrowbodies.
  • And the ATC fees for transatlantic flight are tiny on a per-seat basis -- smaller than a lot of US airport charges on that basis.

As for slots, obviously they're an issue at certain airports -- but there are plenty of places for lower cost carriers to land, and one need only look at the many successful LCCs operating within Europe to see the possibilities there.

None of the above changes the fundamental element, which is that the newest generation of narrowbodies will fundamentally shift the competitive landscape for TATL flights.
 
dtremit
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Re: Austrian to start VIE-BOS

Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:54 pm

SASViking wrote:
BA, LH and AA do not only have low prices on TATL. They have a very small amount of very cheap seats just to fill up the planes. They don't earn any money on such prices. Everyone one else on those flights have basically paid the fare for you


That is no less true for the passenger flying on a $80+tax o/w fare from BOS-SFO.

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