Vladex
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Emirates President slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:11 am

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/emi ... -use-a380/
He is saying that the big state airlines like EU3 have no drive in them to innovate since they have a captive population whereas city states of Dubai and Singapore have to please and attract other people Also he talks about obvious size limitations but not of technical limitations of single deck airlplanes . He also says that it was Airbus that pushed him toward converting an order from A380 to A350/A330.

selected
he CEO of Air France has recently disqualified the A380 as having always been difficult and now obsolete. What is your take on this?

Clark: The A380 was a misfit for Air France. They never scaled, they only have ten aircraft. Yes, we faced the same teething problems, but we dealt with them because we were scaled enough to deal with it.

The whole approach to the A380 at Air France and Lufthansa was ‘just more of the same.’ They lost the opportunity to really define it. They never ordered any more. British Airways didn’t order any more. BA should have had the same number of A380s as we have, hundred of those.

After you only signed the contract to buy more A380s in February last year, all then unravelled fairly quickly afterwards. How come?

Clark: In November 2018 we had a grown-up discussion with Toulouse. It was clear to us that Toulouse was struggling with the aeroplane. They would have continued to build it but on a bespoke basis which would have cost a fortune.

Will there be second thoughts at Airbus about terminating the A380 program?

Clark: Airbus will rue the day that they cancelled the A380.


They only have 7 left to receive. I heard on a tv show that that the last will be manufactured in may 2020.
Last edited by qf789 on Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:21 am

They should spend money to build DWC and buy smaller aircrafts instead
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:24 am

Yet someone like Steven Udvar-Hazy who sees the broader industry only this week said the A380 does not work.

From ALC earnings call Q&A:

Michael Linenberg: With the A380 now sort of emerging or it's becoming clear that this is a 10- or 12 -year-old airplane or an airplane with a 10- or 12-year life, we're going to see a lot of those planes get parked over the next few years. It feels like there could be a step-up for widebody demand. Do you see a step-up in demand for other programs as a lot of seats are going to be leaving the market over the next few, really over the next five. Thoughts on that?

Steven F. Udvar-Házy: Yes. We're working with virtually every one of the A380 operators. Yes, most of them will phase out the aircraft at 12 years as it des not work for them. Some may hang on for a little while longer, but definitely the A380 fleet is going to shrink at a very rapid rate. And what we're seeing is that most of the airlines that we're dealing with are not interested in replacing them with the largest twin-engine widebodies. The actual trend is the other way. They're more interested in increasing frequencies, in existing city pairs. While the 787-9, the 787-10, the A350-900, the 1000 are the four models with great economics that appear to be the most interesting for these airlines.
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ethernal
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:32 am

So... higher CASM at a larger gauge is now "innovating"? :)

As has been said a thousand times on this forum, there is literally zero market for the A380. If such a turbine was able to be built, a twin-jet A380 would potentially at least have a CASM edge on trunk routes that could fill the plane and you could have a debate. But why lose both frequency AND CASM?

The A380 only possibly makes sense for slot limited airports. But even there it is of limited value. Small narrowbodies and local O&D traffic will be the first to be displaced in those markets, not widebodies. AF and BA fly out of ORY and LGW and are growing there rapidly for a reason. Unfortunately Tim Clark doesn't have that option, and with DWC looking less and less likely, he is probably the only airline CEO that has even an inkling of a business case for the A380.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:33 am

STC is out of touch.
He obviously did a good job of building EK, but he seems to fail to recognize the fundmental difference between the structural advantage of building a global airline in Dubai, and the reality of the EU3 (and most others, as well).
According to him, everyone else, save Singapore, is a visionless idiot (though why does SQ only operate 19?) .

His ego is quite apparent, with this gem: "Maybe it needed someone like me to persuade our shareholder to buy 150 of them" .
Not to be outdone by: "BA should have had the same number of A380s as we have, hundred of those". SMH.

His wisest comment: "This aircraft never had a chance, as the people in charge at the top of the world’s big airlines were very risk-averse." Ya think?

According to his logic, he needed only to buy another 200 to keep production and further investment going. But maybe he needed someone else who could convince his "shareholder".
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:36 am

I wonder what his answer would be if a reporter confronted him with a question “how many A380 operated routes of EK are net profitable versus net loss making?”

The truthful answer to that would alone shut down his silly argument over here.

The key word here is “net profit” and not “operating profit” !
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:55 am

What works for EK works for no one else. In the end, the amount of money wasted to reinforce runways, taxiways, build special gate access, and service a plane that was built with the intention of eclipsing the 747 (something of a corporate vanity project) that cost billions and will never recoup R&D costs, could have been spent elsewhere in the aviation industry that had to adapt and prioritize for the A380. Ultimately, the A380 was undone by the twin-engine aircraft market shared by both Airbus & Boeing in the 787 and A350 models. It is EK's model that is potentially at risk. The 787/A350 and presumably future twin engine jets will eventually make DXB essentially a hub that can be bypassed.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:18 am

Sir Tim Clark is obviously an highly-intelligent man but I simply think that the A380 just doesn't work for any airline which isn't Emirates or perhaps Singapore Airlines. The only other airlines I know of which should've seriously been looking at A380s are Cathay, VS and BA (to deal with their central hubs being slot-controlled), but we all know the political situation in HK is deteriorating (thus lowering long-term demand for travel to and from Hong Kong) and both HKIA and Heathrow are getting third runways relatively soon. And Virgin Atlantic cancelled their A380s so clearly they couldn't fill those planes at respectable yields.

The A380 has suboptimal economics unless the jets are filled and the fleet is relatively large.

I think a lot of STC's "yay A380" mentality comes from the fact that Emirates have made huge specific-to-the-A380 investments, and thus the phasing out of the A380 damages them and forces a change in their business model. I think he's quite aware that the A380 just doesn't make sense for almost every other airline besides Emirates.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 am

Is TC saying that LHR and CDG could become DXB's? I think that we all agree that that is not realistic. They're totally different population dynamics.
As to LH, there is no real hub option for them so its a step even further.
 
Vladex
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
What works for EK works for no one else. In the end, the amount of money wasted to reinforce runways, taxiways, build special gate access, and service a plane that was built with the intention of eclipsing the 747 (something of a corporate vanity project) that cost billions and will never recoup R&D costs, could have been spent elsewhere in the aviation industry that had to adapt and prioritize for the A380. Ultimately, the A380 was undone by the twin-engine aircraft market shared by both Airbus & Boeing in the 787 and A350 models. It is EK's model that is potentially at risk. The 787/A350 and presumably future twin engine jets will eventually make DXB essentially a hub that can be bypassed.


A380 should not work for EK. They have a 24 hour airport and 90% of their destinations are within 8 hours which is all Europe, Africa and most of Asia. They could make more money flying anything but A380 but then again no one would fly them, they wouldn't have free advertising from a double deck . A380 is needed for big hubs on the edge of continent like western Europe and east Asia that have single hubs that are on curfew.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:56 am

Airbus took a bet on A380 thinking global aviation would evolve in one direction and it did not.

The fact that smaller aircraft have seat cost advantage over the A380 is even more damming and the last nail in the A380s coffin.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:00 am

Air France CEO not shy about complaining about the A380.

Story from last week:

It seems the A380 was always more a burden than a vehicle of choice for Air France, do you agree?
Anne Rigail: I would not say that it was a burden from the beginning. I don’t know if anyone would have been able to forecast it at the time, but aircraft like the A350 and the 787 Dreamliner just made the A380 totally obsolete, too expensive, too big. Operationally it has always been a difficult aircraft, you need specific ramp equipment, you need to rebuild runways and taxiways, you need special boarding ramps. I say this because I was working at our CDG hub when the A380 arrived – operationally it has always been problematic. Because you even need special training for everyone on the ramp, I have never seen this before. In comparison, it’s so easy to train people to handle an A350. But when the A380 came to Air France in 2009, it replaced two aircraft types, so on the cost side, it wasn’t too bad. Since then the efficiency of the A350 and the 787 is the same, but with less capacity and more flexibility, you can put them on any route. So, of course, the A380 is no longer as useful. And we have all kinds of problems with it – related to the structure, the engines. And not only now when the aircraft get older – it has always been difficult with the A380.

But still, it creates positive emotions for passengers?
Rigail: Customers love this aircraft and they still do. It’s quiet, it’s big, it’s beautiful in some respects. I like to see A380s in the morning when they take off. We still like this aircraft, but it’s not suitable to keep it while pursuing our strategy because you can only put it on a few of your busiest routes. The investment for cabin upgrades is huge – it would cost us €35m per aircraft, I did the research myself.

Air France always promised an upgrade of the 2009-vintage cabins would start “soon”…
Rigail: Yes, I said that myself and we were quite committed to do it. But when you look at the overall investment when you add the refurbishment and the heavy maintenance checks due soon, the cost is so high that we think it’s better to remove the fleet. It is just more beneficial for the years to come to have new generation aircraft. I think the A380 is just outdated now.


Air France CEO slams obsolete, problem-prone A380
https://www.airlineratings.com/news/air ... rone-a380/
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:11 am

Vladex wrote:
Clark: The A380 was a misfit for Air France. They never scaled, they only have ten aircraft. Yes, we faced the same teething problems, but we dealt with them because we were scaled enough to deal with it.

France did scale, but in an other way: CDG has 4 runways. Any other big international hub besides DXB has more than 2 runways (planned) as well. The only reason the A380 did make sense for EK is Dubai's lack of investment in airport infrastructure making bigger airplanes the only way to expand. A bit weird from Tim Clark to then attack other airlines from countries that mostly did make the proper infrastructure investments. That's where Dubai should have scaled up but didn't because they went broke.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:20 am

LAXintl wrote:
Yet someone like Steven Udvar-Hazy who sees the broader industry only this week said the A380 does not work.

From ALC earnings call Q&A:

Michael Linenberg: With the A380 now sort of emerging or it's becoming clear that this is a 10- or 12 -year-old airplane or an airplane with a 10- or 12-year life, we're going to see a lot of those planes get parked over the next few years. It feels like there could be a step-up for widebody demand. Do you see a step-up in demand for other programs as a lot of seats are going to be leaving the market over the next few, really over the next five. Thoughts on that?

Steven F. Udvar-Házy: Yes. We're working with virtually every one of the A380 operators. Yes, most of them will phase out the aircraft at 12 years as it des not work for them. Some may hang on for a little while longer, but definitely the A380 fleet is going to shrink at a very rapid rate. And what we're seeing is that most of the airlines that we're dealing with are not interested in replacing them with the largest twin-engine widebodies. The actual trend is the other way. They're more interested in increasing frequencies, in existing city pairs. While the 787-9, the 787-10, the A350-900, the 1000 are the four models with great economics that appear to be the most interesting for these airlines.

I loved the A380 idea. The problem is it is too small for a double deck. To much space and weight is lost to stairs, elevators (catering and people) and accommodating two decks. Ironically, it needed to be larger. e g., 11-across lower deck and longer. Tough in an 80m box without folding wingtips.

Udvar-Hazy has the pulse. He has always been pragmatic. If only 4 are in demand, that is that. I'm guessing no added ALC orders for the other widebodies. This makes me sad. But the invisible hand has moved.

This implies in just 6 or so years the economics of scale on the A380 falls apart from a support perspective.

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strfyr51
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:23 am

The A380 was solely developed for Vanity, When they pitched the airplane to United they did so because at one point United had 56 747-422's in the field and they thought United could field 16 A380's to replace the 747's. trouble was? Other than SFO there wasn't a Hangar on the system large enough for he A380, Nor were there Jacks nor support equipment large enough to handle the A380... since Airbus didn't ask what anybody Needed before announcing nd building the A380? They pissed away good sales of the A350 or even the A330 because by then United had 56 B777's as welll as the B747's. What would we have needed the A380 for?
American, Delta, Northwest and USAir weren't going to buy it American and Delta didn't even fly any 747's until the NW merger. American nor USAir were going to fly the 747 much Less the A380. . So that airplane was bridge too far. And at that time? There WAS no Emirates.to speak of.. They came along pretty suddenly to prominence amd sought to throw their weight around.. Like the time they went into Atlanta and Delta wouldn't move their airplane to make room for their A380. That was when the ME3 went to war with the US3.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:25 am

An investment in infrastructure (appreciating asset) over aircraft (depreciating asset) is always better. Clark apparently couldn't make that happen in Dubai so everyone else were the idiots. Sure.
 
Lpbri
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:56 am

Another A380 issue is cargo. Or lack of it. It can't carry any. After you fill it up with bags for 500+ people, there isn't much left for cargo. Too short and stubby.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:59 am

The A380 would be a good idea for airlines operating slot restricted routes and in these cases, such a plane can be an enormous cost saver as Emirates, Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, and British Airways have proven
 
speedbird52
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:03 am

IMO The A380 is way ahead of its time. But airports can only get so big, and we can only build so many new airports. Just because you will be able to fly from Portland to Manchester doesn't mean that demand for flights from Chicago to London will suddenly stop increasing. We absolutely will need VLAs in the long term. I'm betting on seeing a new VLA built in the next 20 years.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:19 am

The problem with the A380 is that they overbuilt the wings for the stretch. Had they gone all-in on the 80x80 box with 11-across and 700 pax, they would have had killer CASM for not too much trip cost penalty and it might have made sense to build and buy it.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:28 am

Why are there more and more people expressing their view about the A380 today?
They should have said all this fifteen years ago.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:29 am

I'm not a big fan of Tim Clark, but he is right on this one. Airbus and the EU3 chickened out on a great aircraft that had yet to do what it is designed to do: carrying lots of people.

Air France has one of the world's largest fleet of B777's, yet where are the profits?
AF should have had a fleet of 30 A380's by now and mega profits, but they have neither. Why? They have allowed too many airlines to come in and share their croissant, that they now havr to settle for a smaller portion of the market.

I wouldnt pay too much attention to SUH.
The leasing business is the single major cause for the dire straits that the industry is in currently despite the low oil prices.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:31 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Tim Clark, but he is right on this one. Airbus and the EU3 chickened out on a great aircraft that had yet to do what it is designed to do: carrying lots of people.

Air France has one of the world's largest fleet of B777's, yet where are the profits?
AF should have had a fleet of 30 A380's by now and mega profits, but they have neither. Why? They have allowed too many airlines to come in and share their croissant, that they now havr to settle for a smaller portion of the market.

I wouldnt pay too much attention to SUH.
The leasing business is the single major cause for the dire straits that the industry is in currently despite the low oil prices.

The thing is A380s would have let even more airlines in. By going frequency over capacity, Air France gets to hog more slots.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:36 am

In addition, Tim Clark has to justify his decision to order so many A380.

"We did the right thing and others are the dumb ones who do not know how to use the aircraft."

Yeah, why not.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:36 am

I thought the A380 would have been a game changer at places like JFK, LHR, HKG, NRT/HND, PEK, PVG, maybe even LAX and SFO. Daxing really killed the idea of having a lot of A380s in Asia.
Is CDG slot constrained because it doesn't have enough capacity or because of outside interests?
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WPvsMW
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:54 am

STC is merely defending his "legacy". Bombast and braggadocio.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:00 am

mercure1 wrote:
Air France CEO not shy about complaining about the A380.

Sure, and most we've heard before, except:

And we have all kinds of problems with it – related to the structure, the engines. And not only now when the aircraft get older – it has always been difficult with the A380.

I wonder what made her say this specific thing.

One thing about the VLA is that if it breaks you inconvenience a larger number of people, so perhaps it is that? It's something even A380 fanboy STC has complained about.

Of course AF had the engine lose its fan and get stranded in Canada for a while, but that was a one off thing. Are there any other unusual engine problems with A380?

Structures -- is this about the cracked wing rib feet, or something else?
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:20 am

LAXintl wrote:
Yet someone like Steven Udvar-Hazy who sees the broader industry only this week said the A380 does not work.

From ALC earnings call Q&A:

Michael Linenberg: With the A380 now sort of emerging or it's becoming clear that this is a 10- or 12 -year-old airplane or an airplane with a 10- or 12-year life, we're going to see a lot of those planes get parked over the next few years. It feels like there could be a step-up for widebody demand. Do you see a step-up in demand for other programs as a lot of seats are going to be leaving the market over the next few, really over the next five. Thoughts on that?

Steven F. Udvar-Házy: Yes. We're working with virtually every one of the A380 operators. Yes, most of them will phase out the aircraft at 12 years as it des not work for them. Some may hang on for a little while longer, but definitely the A380 fleet is going to shrink at a very rapid rate. And what we're seeing is that most of the airlines that we're dealing with are not interested in replacing them with the largest twin-engine widebodies. The actual trend is the other way. They're more interested in increasing frequencies, in existing city pairs. While the 787-9, the 787-10, the A350-900, the 1000 are the four models with great economics that appear to be the most interesting for these airlines.


This comment doesn't seem to sit well for the 777X …

Rgds
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:21 am

There are enough airports to handle it. Watch AF boarding 500+ 2x per night from April to October at JFK - it's a mess. Not a great Pax experience. That is after long checkin lines and getting all these people thru security at T1. Add in the cost to refurb the the planes and no wonder AF is getting rid of it. A great plane to fly on as a pax. But a goner. I'd say AF was clever to order 10 than EK's 100+ sorry STC...
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:26 am

We'll see what he has to say once all of his 777X, A350, and (I bet) 787 are in service. I suspect that once he's gotten a taste of flying the same premium pax load for 2/3 the cost in a 777-9, he's going to change his views a bit.

EK has more routes than any other airline in the world that can pay for the additional cost (either trip or per ASM) of an A380, but even EK doesn't need as many as it has.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:29 am

Are we going to restart the A380 debate yet again?

The situation today is absolutely clear. There is nothing more to say.

I was right since day one, but that is not at all important.

The important thing now is to move on.

The reality is that A380 production will stop by the end of 2021.

If Tim Clark wanted to save the aircraft because it works well for him he can just order 100 extra units today.. It would give the time and the mean to Airbus to sell more A380 to other airlines. Just do it!
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:37 am

Is this his way to say he screwed up?
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:15 am

VV wrote:
Are we going to restart the A380 debate yet again?

The situation today is absolutely clear. There is nothing more to say.

I was right since day one, but that is not at all important.

The important thing now is to move on.

The reality is that A380 production will stop by the end of 2021.

If Tim Clark wanted to save the aircraft because it works well for him he can just order 100 extra units today.. It would give the time and the mean to Airbus to sell more A380 to other airlines. Just do it!


Can we just close this thread with this perfect answer? PLEASE?
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:26 am

ethernal wrote:
So... higher CASM at a larger gauge is now "innovating"? :)

Where are you getting "higher CASM" from?




strfyr51 wrote:
American and Delta didn't even fly any 747's until the NW merger.

Hmm... :scratchchin:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:02 am

Again a point I've iterated several times across airliners.net was that the aircraft only becomes economical when it's bought in scale:

If you’ve got a sub fleet of 10 it’s a bloody nightmare and the costs go through the roof, she is absolutely right. But if you got a hundred of them it’s a bit different. Your unit costs in operating with that number are a lot lower than having just ten


Buying 10 of any aircraft is no doubt not going to give you the same discount as signing up for 20 or 30. TC is mostly trying to hammer down the point that the CASM of the aircraft that EK has achieved, is measurably less than its European competitors that also fly 380s that have complained about it not being economical. The expensive (45M euro?) refits that AF and others have talked about recently are a result of those airlines not investing in their product at the time. EK will never update it's 380s and yet their 11 year old aircraft still have a very competitive product in today's market; that's a nice saving per aircraft that won't raise the aircraft's CASM in EK's fleet.
 
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:18 am

I only see CEOs backing up their business decissions, which is what they are supposed to do. With the A380 being a flagship airplane these discussion have a bit of an extra dimension, you won't see it the same level when it's about the 767 or A340 fleets.

With Udvar-Hazy remarks you have to keep in mind which aircraft he ordered the most. With his statements he will try to steer the industry towards the aircraft that will bring the most profit to his business.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:26 am

Momo1435 wrote:
I only see CEOs backing up their business decissions, which is what they are supposed to do. With the A380 being a flagship airplane these discussion have a bit of an extra dimension, you won't see it the same level when it's about the 767 or A340 fleets.

With Udvar-Hazy remarks you have to keep in mind which aircraft he ordered the most. With his statements he will try to steer the industry towards the aircraft that will bring the most profit to his business.

You're right, it's all just a conspiracy to be mean to the A380, by essentially every airline/lessor on the planet, save one...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:34 am

VV wrote:
Are we going to restart the A380 debate yet again?

The situation today is absolutely clear. There is nothing more to say.

I was right since day one, but that is not at all important.

The important thing now is to move on.

The reality is that A380 production will stop by the end of 2021.

If Tim Clark wanted to save the aircraft because it works well for him he can just order 100 extra units today.. It would give the time and the mean to Airbus to sell more A380 to other airlines. Just do it!


You were out on a windy corner back around first flight, they just wouldn't listen. It is still nice to get out the popcorn for A380 threads, but they are fading along with the plane.

Yes, an order for 100 with new engines, but the Trent 700 engines are 10% higher thrust than the GEnX or Trent 7000. That could have been enough, but unlikely.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ethernal wrote:
So... higher CASM at a larger gauge is now "innovating"? :)

Where are you getting "higher CASM" from?


out of a dark place.
It is quite obvious that a 10AB Y/great J-Class A380 has at least the same CASM as a 10 AB Y, 7 AB J 77W since EK would not have flown a much bigger, more expensive plane in those quantities ....

Problem is CASM wasn´t good enough to justify having it unless you have a global maga-hub to consistently fill it. Emirates was the only Airline where that was really the case, and that closes the case on the A380. That newer Aircraft can offer the same CASM while being much smaller (787 has ~46% the cabin floor size and half the trip cost according to Qantas) brought out the Nine Inch Nails.

Big loss for the traveling public.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:04 am

VV wrote:
Why are there more and more people expressing their view about the A380 today?
They should have said all this fifteen years ago.


For goodness' sake, you all dumped on it back then, continued to dump on it for twenty years, and I'm still seeing the exact same arguments from the exact same people in this very thread.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:06 am

I think BA not buying more was a bad sign for the programme. They have one of the most premium heavy hubs on the planet, yet the cost of new frames or refurbishment of old ones couldn’t be stacked.
 
Arion640
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:09 am

adambrau wrote:
There are enough airports to handle it. Watch AF boarding 500+ 2x per night from April to October at JFK - it's a mess. Not a great Pax experience. That is after long checkin lines and getting all these people thru security at T1. Add in the cost to refurb the the planes and no wonder AF is getting rid of it. A great plane to fly on as a pax. But a goner. I'd say AF was clever to order 10 than EK's 100+ sorry STC...


Your first point is mainly a JFK problem...boarding BA A380’s at Heathrow is just like boarding any other wide body except you have to walk upstairs sometimes.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:09 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
VV wrote:
Are we going to restart the A380 debate yet again?

The situation today is absolutely clear. There is nothing more to say.

I was right since day one, but that is not at all important.

The important thing now is to move on.

The reality is that A380 production will stop by the end of 2021.

If Tim Clark wanted to save the aircraft because it works well for him he can just order 100 extra units today.. It would give the time and the mean to Airbus to sell more A380 to other airlines. Just do it!


You were out on a windy corner back around first flight, they just wouldn't listen. It is still nice to get out the popcorn for A380 threads, but they are fading along with the plane.

Yes, an order for 100 with new engines, but the Trent 700 engines are 10% higher thrust than the GEnX or Trent 7000. That could have been enough, but unlikely.


I know this is a discussion forum and there is no such thing as right or wrong, but those guys back then who said airlines would order the A380 in significant number should come out today and admit that they were wrong.

I know we have to move on, but hey they have been DAMN WRONG all these years.
 
Arion640
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:10 am

BrianDromey wrote:
I think BA not buying more was a bad sign for the programme. They have one of the most premium heavy hubs on the planet, yet the cost of new frames or refurbishment of old ones couldn’t be stacked.


That’s the point, they are premium heavy and need few Y seats. As long as they can get around 150 F/J/Y+ in a plane they rarely care how big the economy cabin is.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:12 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
VV wrote:
Why are there more and more people expressing their view about the A380 today?
They should have said all this fifteen years ago.


For goodness' sake, you all dumped on it back then, continued to dump on it for twenty years, and I'm still seeing the exact same arguments from the exact same people in this very thread.


So you still do not see the reality of today, do you?

You are still seeing the exact same arguments as they were years ago, but I hope you see today that the reality validates some of the arguments and invalidates others.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:41 am

No one has a crystal ball.
Airbus dared to try.
Went one way, industry moved another.
Airbus survives and builds amazing aircraft.

But the important thing is another willy-waving thread of people who have no actual skin in the game explaining why they were right.
Get some more photos or a flight in one, they’ll be gone soon enough, buried under a pile of nostalgic threads of people who miss the A380 and didn’t appreciate the here and now.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 456
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ethernal wrote:
So... higher CASM at a larger gauge is now "innovating"? :)

Where are you getting "higher CASM" from?




strfyr51 wrote:
American and Delta didn't even fly any 747's until the NW merger.

Hmm... :scratchchin:

Just like AF and LH learned their lesson on the increasing impracticability of the A380, AA and DL learned that with the B747 a long time ago. Prestige, vanity, whatever you want to call it, has hurt many companies over the years.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:00 am

Emphasis added.

skipness1E wrote:
...

But the important thing is another willy-waving thread of people who have no actual skin in the game explaining why they were right.
Get some more photos or a flight in one, they’ll be gone soon enough, buried under a pile of nostalgic threads of people who miss the A380 and didn’t appreciate the here and now.


I do not think some people are trying to "explain why they were right". They were right and others were wong and that's it that's all.

Now I have seen in this discussion forum how some people have been quite harsh to those who thought and still think the A380's market (or VLA in general) was and is small. What happens today is just the validation of that opinion.

It happens that way and bizarrely today everybody seems to agree that A380 is not doing so well.

As for crystal balls are concerned, some people may have had better gut feel than others.
 
timh4000
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:15 am

Personally I don't blame Airbus for building it. AT the time the 747 was a profitable plane, so why not build one even bigger. And it's sad that this plane won't have the many decades of memorable service even though passengers, pilots and FA's all like it. It is as advanced tech wise as anything flying. The A350 got its tech mostly from the 380. The A380 has a great safety record. At the time they started the assembly lines the industry was moving in a direction that would have accommodated it better.

STC has made it work and arrogantly trashes other airlines who didn't. His success with it is not because of his superiority, just that the conditions line up for him more so than the other airlines. He reminds me of professional poker players who are getting great cards and claiming their success is on how well they are playing.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates CEO slams other airlines and Airbus for mishandling and retiring A380

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:30 am

timh4000 wrote:
...
STC has made it work and arrogantly trashes other airlines who didn't. His success with it is not because of his superiority, just that the conditions line up for him more so than the other airlines. He reminds me of professional poker players who are getting great cards and claiming their success is on how well they are playing.


Has he?

If the aircraft works so great for his airline, he could have ordered another 100 units and the program would have been given better engines and so on. In addition that level of order would have given the time and the mean to Airbus to market it to other airlines if it is such a great airplane.

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