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mjoelnir
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A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:21 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... si-462255/

The Airbus A320 family, available since 1988, has overtaken the 737 family, available since 1965, in total orders.
Total orders for the A320 family stand now at 15,193 frames against 15,136 frames for the 737.

In total deliveries the A320 family, with 9,068 deliveries, still trails the 737, with 10,563 deliveries, by 1495 frames.
 
US319
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:23 pm

Awesome news!
 
SteelChair
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:26 pm

To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:59 pm

Does this include A318, A319, and A321? Because the A321 is more equivalent to a 757.
 
mwhcvt
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:02 pm

SteelChair wrote:
To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.


The A320 has changed a lot over the years, but Airbus philosophy is evolution of the family over redesigned generations of Boeing
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
US319
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:04 pm

SteelChair wrote:
To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.


Boeing 737: 4 iterations since 1965
Airbus 320: 2 iterations since 1988

IMO this is not little...
 
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afterburner
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:32 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does this include A318, A319, and A321? Because the A321 is more equivalent to a 757.

A318, A319, and A321 are all shrink and stretch versions of A320. 757 is not a stretch version of 737.
 
Caluma350
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:34 pm

This was always going to happen - the A320 being over 20 years younger with a far more modern design with features such as fly by wire have ensured the A320 is still relevant in 2019.

The 737 is an old design which has had to have an overhaul every time an update has been applied.

As an airline it is far more attractive to have a fleet of A320 as the aircraft overall has been far more efficient in terms of reliability.

Its really what made airbus what it is today - and to think industry experts only expected airbus to sell a max of 700 when it launched!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:37 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does this include A318, A319, and A321? Because the A321 is more equivalent to a 757.


of course it includes every model. You have to wait a few years for the A320 family passing the combined sales of the 737 and 757.
But you should also not forget, that the 737 started out in 1965, the 757 in 1982 and the A320 in 1988.

Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.
 
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scbriml
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:05 pm

It’s an achievement worthy of note and something that many here thought unimaginable a few years ago.

But what I feel is truly remarkable about both the A320 and 737 is the scale of their industrialisation. These things are being pumped out at a combined rate of 100+ per month which is unprecedented for a non-wartime plane. In a small number of years, both will exceed total DC-3 sales and production. That’s simply astonishing and a testament to both.
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gatibosgru
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:13 pm

If you told me this would happen 10 years ago I'd have told you to put the vodka down. Congrats Airbus and the A320 family!
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twaconnie
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:14 pm

Boeing is slowly falling behind they need something new and better.
 
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AlaskaA321NEO
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:23 pm

Congrats Airbus! Although I must say I am not surprised with all the innovations Airbus has implemented in the A320 family. Not to bash Boeing but I think airbus thinks about the long term a little more, building a plane where they have options to change the engines for example without too much headache.

Anthony.
 
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Incredible! So the A320 family is now the most successful passenger jetliner of all time. Amazing achievement Airbus, well done!
 
Chrisba320
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:53 pm

This is a major milestone for the brilliant A320 family, well done Airbus! The baby bus keeps going from strength to strength. It was a gamble for Airbus when it was launched, but my god, did that gamble pay off handsomely.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:02 pm

It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.
 
Amiga500
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:05 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


Had the 737 jurassic and the vintage A320-100 been introduced at the same time it'd have been a massacre.


Boeing is suffering from a severe case of McDonnell Douglas syndrome. Iterate to death.
 
steman
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
It’s an achievement worthy of note and something that many here thought unimaginable a few years ago.

But what I feel is truly remarkable about both the A320 and 737 is the scale of their industrialisation. These things are being pumped out at a combined rate of 100+ per month which is unprecedented for a non-wartime plane. In a small number of years, both will exceed total DC-3 sales and production. That’s simply astonishing and a testament to both.


You are absolutely right. Only ten or fifteen years ago such production rates were unthinkable.
I must say I really appreciate your contributions to this forum. All your posts are written in a respectful but factual way and absolutely free from silly fanboism. Please never leave us. A.net needs you :-)
 
Kiwirob
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:17 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does this include A318, A319, and A321? Because the A321 is more equivalent to a 757.


of course it includes every model. You have to wait a few years for the A320 family passing the combined sales of the 737 and 757.
But you should also not forget, that the 737 started out in 1965, the 757 in 1982 and the A320 in 1988.

Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.


Boeing built 1050 757's it won't be long before Airbus has sold more than the total number of 737/757's.
 
snowkarl
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:22 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


Major cope.

Unless I have it completely backwards - Boeing is still producing planes no? So more airlines means more customers for Boeing as well, I'd think... They simply didn't halt all production when Airbus launched the a320, which makes your entire argument not just meaningless but a point against Boeing. Even with a decades long head start and a huge dominance of the industry did they fall behind and lose the battle.

There's a very very simple reason Airbus A320 is most succesful than all Boeing planes right now - it's superior.

Boeing is complacent, greedy and the real question is how many more failed programs can they actually survive?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:30 pm

US319 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.


Boeing 737: 4 iterations since 1965
Airbus 320: 2 iterations since 1988

IMO this is not little...


But you also have to consider that the first iteration (-200) is still in production after 31 years.

A 30 year old CEO is practically identical to an end of line build in the factory right now, and has 95% commonality with a NEO.

This is why so many carriers are ESG-ing their older fleet members.
Last edited by 1989worstyear on Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
seb76
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:30 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


If you want to make a real apple to apple comparison, then you must remember that the A320 also had to compete with the still rather recent 757 when it was introduced (and could not compete when range was an important criteria). Airbus also had to convince many existing Boeing customers with a sizeable 737 fleet (you need a significantly stronger product than your competitor to overcome the cost of change !). The MD-80 was still around as well at that time and then came the ... Boeing 717 :rotfl:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:35 pm

seb76 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


If you want to make a real apple to apple comparison, then you must remember that the A320 also had to compete with the still rather recent 757 when it was introduced (and could not compete when range was an important criteria). Airbus also had to convince many existing Boeing customers with a sizeable 737 fleet (you need a significantly stronger product than your competitor to overcome the cost of change !). The MD-80 was still around as well at that time and then came the ... Boeing 717 :rotfl:


The MD-80 family was on its death bed before the A320 came along. TWA ordered a few in the 90's and that was about it. AA and DL made their massive order in the mid 1980's and most deliveries were wrapped uo by 1993.
 
MoreMiles
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Great achievement for Airbus. Once MAX Grounding is lifted, the 1495 delivery difference will likely increase significantly as the grounded aircraft get delivered.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.

Then compare sales of 737s & 757s since 1984 (when the A320 was officially launched) with the sales of the A320 Family (Wikipedia numbers, through end of October 2019):
- 737: 1,988 Classic (some even ordered before 1984) + 7,092 NGs (including 157 P-8 Poseidon) + 4,930 MAXs = 14,010
- 757: 916;
- A320Family (ceo and neo): 8,135 ceo + 7,022 neo = 15,157.
Total Boeing 737 + 757 sold after 1984 = 14,926
Total Airbus A320Family sold = 15,157.

The 737 had the sales number advantage over the A320 for a long time as it was introduced 2 decades prior; but since, again all things behind "equal" (i.e., looking at sales on the same period), the A320Family largely oversold the 737s & 757s.
 
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.


No, at the time, the 737-800 was considered a direct 727-200 replacement.
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YYZYYT
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:17 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


Um.. I usually don't wade into A v B slinging, but this is silly.

All of the things you mention slowed sales in the initial decades, so yes, you're right that the 737 would have had a bigger head start if not for the above.

But, ok, let's play the game and compare sales of 320 to 737 from 1988 to the present. And... that's better for Boeing how?
 
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Polot
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:19 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


Had the 737 jurassic and the vintage A320-100 been introduced at the same time it'd have been a massacre.


Boeing is suffering from a severe case of McDonnell Douglas syndrome. Iterate to death.

Sure, but it is not like the A320-100 would have been technically possible at the time of the 737 Jurassic.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Congrats Airbus!
I still want an A318 for Christmas! It's so cute :dopey: :bouncy: :cloudnine:
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IADCA
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


This is a fundamentally illogical post in that almost all it even attempts to excuse is why the 737 didn't pile up an even bigger lead prior to when the A320 was introduced.

It does almost nothing to blunt the actual apples to apples, which is the sales of the then-current iterations of 737 and A320 since the latter's introduction. It's not like the A320 was competing in the mid and late-80s for new orders against the Jurassic; the Classics had already been launched at that point, and the MD was still out there as well. Indeed, until the A321 launched in 1988, there was only 1 A320 family member against a then-current offering of 3 different 737 Classics - plus the 757, yes, but in that generation there was still a huge gap between the 737 and A320 families and the 757 that only closed with thr NGs and the vast improvements to the A321.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


The 737 has been for sale for EXACTLY the same period as the A320 and a bit more, so unless the troubles that the 737 had prior to the A320 arriving caused it to have negative orders (which it didn't) then the A320 has outsold the 737 whilst being around for less time.

after a projected breakeven of 400 frames and a projected sales volume of 700 what a machine it has come to be!

Fun thread. Lol.

Fred
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PW100
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.
2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


2) If I'm not mistaken, the 737 family was avialble since day one of A320 lauch and life. How can that not be an apple to apple comparison . . . ?

3) The 320 competes fairyy squarly with the 737. Any 737 competition is therefore also A320 competition.

4) Perhaps you want to read up on the union backlash the inital A320 faced . . .
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ericm2031
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.

1) There are far more airlines and thus more demand since the introduction of the A320. The 737 came out during a time of stiff government regulation on where airlines could fly. They also set prices at a level where very few could afford to fly. As a result, airlines had much smaller fleets back then and didn't order large numbers of aircraft. And they also preferred running larger aircraft on multi-stop itineraries. Back then, outside of N America and Europe the demand for airplanes was weak. The world is much more connected now with hundreds of additional airlines and fares cheap enough for the average person to fly regularly.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.

3) The 737 also faced internal competition with the 727 and 757. At the time the 737 was introduced the 727 was more versatile since it performed well on both shorter and longer flights. And just after the 727 ended production, the 757 was introduced. It was also a versatile aircraft that excelled on pretty much any domestic route. The 737 Classic was now in the picture and while an improvement over the 737-100/200, it still lacked true transcontinental range. I think Piedmont/US Air had a few specially modified 733's that could do CLT/PIT-California. So the 757 kind of stole the show and sales from the 737. The A320 was the only narrowbody Airbus had to offer before the acquisition of the C Series.

4) The 737 faced backlash from pilot unions when it was introduced. They were absolutely livid that a two man crew airliner had been introduced and were prepared to go on strike. Some airlines like United were forced to install a third pilot position in their 737's even though it was completely unnecessary. I'm sure this made some airlines apprehensive and figured there was no cost savings if they had to fly it with three pilots. They may as well buy the larger 727 to spread out the cost. When the A320 was introduced the controversy of two man flight decks had long been settled.

Had both the 737 and A320 been introduced at the same time with everything else being equal then we would have a more accurate picture.


You’re trying to defend Boeing but your reasons are making a case against it
 
SteelChair
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:03 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
US319 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.


Boeing 737: 4 iterations since 1965
Airbus 320: 2 iterations since 1988

IMO this is not little...


But you also have to consider that the first iteration (-200) is still in production after 31 years.

A 30 year old CEO is practically identical to an end of line build in the factory right now, and has 95% commonality with a NEO.

This is why so many carriers are ESG-ing their older fleet members.


Thank you, well stated, thats the essence of what I was saying.

Look, Boeing has tried 3 times to compete with an essentially unchanged A320: the 300/400/500, the NG, and the MAX. 2 of the 3 have been failures (if the 300/400/500 wasn't a failure, then why the NG?), while Airbus just keeps pumping out A320 and 321 aircraft. And Boeing STILL doesn't really have an answer for the 321neo. It was outselling the MAX before the accidents.
 
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:08 pm

SteelChair wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
US319 wrote:

Boeing 737: 4 iterations since 1965
Airbus 320: 2 iterations since 1988

IMO this is not little...


But you also have to consider that the first iteration (-200) is still in production after 31 years.

A 30 year old CEO is practically identical to an end of line build in the factory right now, and has 95% commonality with a NEO.

This is why so many carriers are ESG-ing their older fleet members.


Thank you, well stated, thats the essence of what I was saying.

Look, Boeing has tried 3 times to compete with an essentially unchanged A320: the 300/400/500, the NG, and the MAX. 2 of the 3 have been failures (if the 300/400/500 wasn't a failure, then why the NG?), while Airbus just keeps pumping out A320 and 321 aircraft. And Boeing STILL doesn't really have an answer for the 321neo. It was outselling the MAX before the accidents.


You think selling 1,988 frames is a failure?
 
MoreMiles
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:19 pm

Chrisba320 wrote:
This is a major milestone for the brilliant A320 family, well done Airbus! The baby bus keeps going from strength to strength. It was a gamble for Airbus when it was launched, but my god, did that gamble pay off handsomely.

I would think now the A220-100 is the baby bust ;-)

But it is a huge milestone for Airbus!!
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:35 pm

goodness folks. can't we just recognize the achievement without making it an A vs B thing?
Today is a moment to simply celebrate that Airbus got the A320 family right! It's a fine aircraft with production benefiting 3 continents / 4 countries. The order milestone is a testament to doing allot of things well.
learning never stops.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:37 pm

The best part about the A320 is that Airbus aren't (yet) beholden to the whims of one customer unlike the 737 and Southwest/RyanAir.
Vahroone
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:57 pm

SteelChair wrote:
To me, what has always heen amazing is how little changed the A320 is compared to what, 4 major iterations of the 737.


How wrong you are.

The A320 family is a product of excellence through evolution. Just look at the A321....when it bowed in 1994, it was basically a large regional jet. Now it is flying intercontinental/transoceanic routes that nobody could have ever foreseen in 1994.

Boeing designs a product and it remains static until the next generation. Airbus on the other hand, takes the position of continuous innovation by making incremental upgrades to keep the product fresh and relevant.
My other car is an A320-200
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's not exactly an apples to apples to comparison.
.

2) The A320 never faced the amount of competition that the 737 did. The 737 had to contend with the DC-9, BAC-111, F28, and MD-80 before the A320 came along.


This isn’t accurate at all.

The 737 was a response to the DC-9 and BAC-111....both Douglas and BAC were far ahead of Boeing and already into final certification or initial customer deliveries before the 737 was even launched.

The Fokker F28 was never serious competition for the 737 as the Fokker is and has always been, a regi9nal jet.

The MD-80 is just a warmed over DC-9 and was the only real competition for the 737 as they were both the same from a technological perspective. Neither was particularly advanced, and they both used the same basic design philosophies.

Once the A320 hit the market, everything else was relegated to the status of “also ran”. The A320 is just about the perfect single aisle aircraft and the A321 is the ultimate evolution of the family. The A320 family is wider, quieter, preferred by passengers and crews and has set the bar pretty damn high for what a single aisle aircraft should be. I’d also go as far as saying that the A320 and it’s variants are superior in build quality when compared to the 737....I know many guys in Air Canada’s technical support division are rather disgusted with the new 737s and their dismal build quality and systems architecture compared to the A320s. Even with some airframes approaching 30 years old, these older A320s are still superior to the newer 737s.
My other car is an A320-200
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.


No, at the time, the 737-800 was considered a direct 727-200 replacement.


That did not stop Boeing to declare the 737-8007900 as the 757 replacement, when production of the 757 was stopped.
And I thought the 757 was the 727 replacement.
 
don0245
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:26 pm

Well done Airbus, always liked the 320. Much more comfortable than a 737.
 
westgate
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:32 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
I’d also go as far as saying that the A320 and it’s variants are superior in build quality when compared to the 737....I know many guys in Air Canada’s technical support division are rather disgusted with the new 737s and their dismal build quality and systems architecture compared to the A320s. Even with some airframes approaching 30 years old, these older A320s are still superior to the newer 737s.


Slightly off topic, but what exactly was the reason why Air Canada switched to 737's from 320's? Did they get a great deal from Boeing or did they believe the aircraft to be that much more efficient? This always struck me as odd as usually airlines switch in the other direction from 737's to 320's. If what you say is true about the complaints from technical support, then I guess their decision has already come back to bite them in the backside ;-)
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:49 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.


No, at the time, the 737-800 was considered a direct 727-200 replacement.


That did not stop Boeing to declare the 737-8007900 as the 757 replacement


The -900, and later, the -900ER, was marketed as a 757 replacement, but the -800 never was.
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:08 pm

Congratulations to Airbus!
A350/CSeries = bae
 
ericm2031
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:19 pm

westgate wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:
I’d also go as far as saying that the A320 and it’s variants are superior in build quality when compared to the 737....I know many guys in Air Canada’s technical support division are rather disgusted with the new 737s and their dismal build quality and systems architecture compared to the A320s. Even with some airframes approaching 30 years old, these older A320s are still superior to the newer 737s.


Slightly off topic, but what exactly was the reason why Air Canada switched to 737's from 320's? Did they get a great deal from Boeing or did they believe the aircraft to be that much more efficient? This always struck me as odd as usually airlines switch in the other direction from 737's to 320's. If what you say is true about the complaints from technical support, then I guess their decision has already come back to bite them in the backside ;-)


Probably came down to price/offer Boeing made (I believe they are taking the E190s). Performance probably isn't a huge difference, and if it is, the manufacturers can make up for it in other ways
 
SteelChair
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:40 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

But you also have to consider that the first iteration (-200) is still in production after 31 years.

A 30 year old CEO is practically identical to an end of line build in the factory right now, and has 95% commonality with a NEO.

This is why so many carriers are ESG-ing their older fleet members.


Thank you, well stated, thats the essence of what I was saying.

Look, Boeing has tried 3 times to compete with an essentially unchanged A320: the 300/400/500, the NG, and the MAX. 2 of the 3 have been failures (if the 300/400/500 wasn't a failure, then why the NG?), while Airbus just keeps pumping out A320 and 321 aircraft. And Boeing STILL doesn't really have an answer for the 321neo. It was outselling the MAX before the accidents.


You think selling 1,988 frames is a failure?


Within the context, yes. If the 300/400/500 were done "right," there would be no NG.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:54 pm

SteelChair wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
US319 wrote:

Boeing 737: 4 iterations since 1965
Airbus 320: 2 iterations since 1988

IMO this is not little...


But you also have to consider that the first iteration (-200) is still in production after 31 years.

A 30 year old CEO is practically identical to an end of line build in the factory right now, and has 95% commonality with a NEO.

This is why so many carriers are ESG-ing their older fleet members.


Thank you, well stated, thats the essence of what I was saying.

Look, Boeing has tried 3 times to compete with an essentially unchanged A320: the 300/400/500, the NG, and the MAX. 2 of the 3 have been failures (if the 300/400/500 wasn't a failure, then why the NG?), while Airbus just keeps pumping out A320 and 321 aircraft. And Boeing STILL doesn't really have an answer for the 321neo. It was outselling the MAX before the accidents.


Really the only other commercial jet variant that has lasted this long is the 763 (1986-present), so I think B deserves some credit there at least.

Also, you have to consider the timeframe the A320 was introduced. It entered service during the last year of the Cold War, which had been driving rapid developments in aerospace during the preceding 4 decades.

Also, cultural changes were happening with rap music and Gen X culture taking over, both of which became distractions to the STEM fields.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
VSMUT
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:27 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
westgate wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:
I’d also go as far as saying that the A320 and it’s variants are superior in build quality when compared to the 737....I know many guys in Air Canada’s technical support division are rather disgusted with the new 737s and their dismal build quality and systems architecture compared to the A320s. Even with some airframes approaching 30 years old, these older A320s are still superior to the newer 737s.


Slightly off topic, but what exactly was the reason why Air Canada switched to 737's from 320's? Did they get a great deal from Boeing or did they believe the aircraft to be that much more efficient? This always struck me as odd as usually airlines switch in the other direction from 737's to 320's. If what you say is true about the complaints from technical support, then I guess their decision has already come back to bite them in the backside ;-)


Probably came down to price/offer Boeing made (I believe they are taking the E190s). Performance probably isn't a huge difference, and if it is, the manufacturers can make up for it in other ways


It was widely reported at the time that Boeing made a massive discount that included the 787 delay compensations, while GE threw in a similar deal for the engines as part of the E-190 debacle. Plus Boeing taking the 20 E-190s in return. I think something like a 70% discount was floating around these forums at the time.
 
steman
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Re: A320 family overtakes 737 family in total orders

Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:07 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boeing declared at its time, that the 737-800/900 was the successor to the 757.


No, at the time, the 737-800 was considered a direct 727-200 replacement.


I would say the 737-800 was a direct replacement for 737-400. 727 had been out of production for over ten years, 14 if I´m not wrong when the first 737-800 was delivered.
737NG was a replacement for the 737 Classic: -300 replaced by -700, -400 replaced by -800 and -500 replaced by -600.

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