passyflyer
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A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:11 am

Aviationweek says Airbus is in talks with GE about the A350neo:

http://m.aviationweek.com/commercial-av ... al-a350neo

Your thoughts?
 
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Faro
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:44 am

The article says "a significantly advanced GEnx-1 variant incorporating an air bleed system and material and design enhancements". Can this provide a significant improvement on the Trent XWB?

Unless they incorporate substantially ALL of the technologies incorporated in the GE9X --and that includes that 27:1 compression ratio HPC-- I don't see the point...IIRC, RR is also working on PiP's for the XWB.

What is interesting is that GE see a potential market for such a re-engining; unless there is a clear +5% to 10% specific fuel consumption improvement, I doubt it...

Faro
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eamondzhang
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:50 am

I honestly think it's more on GE realising they can't only provide engines to Boeing (sorry, not intending to start a A vs. B war). XWB so far performs well on A350 and if the UltraFan (or whatever the name is for RR's new engine) works as promised there's no need to introduce GE on A350.

As a business I can totally understand what GE's trying to do - too much risk putting all eggs in one basket.

Michael
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am

The original A350 (aka warmed-over A330) was intended to have GE exclusivity - at least at first.

Now in 2019, it is often overlooked that RR has a larger share of the widebody market than GE does. I have no information about spare or replacement engines but in 2018 RR hung 434 widebody engines on new deliveries but GE managed "only" 338.

This year (YTD) it's 364 for RR and 296 for GE.

And RR look highly likely to outsell GE on widebodies in 2019.

Once the last couple of A330s (for Aer Lingus) are delivered, GE won't be on a single Airbus widebody. RR, by contrast have a worthwhile share of the 787 programme. The T1000 has its issues but it hasn't stopped RR shipping 86 of them so far in 2019.

So, yes, I can see why GE would want to get on the A350.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:30 pm

To be honest it potentially also benefits Airbus. Airframe and Engine manufacturers are really pushing the envelope. The Trent fanblade issues have hurt RR but not stopped them racking up orders. But if the Ultrafan ran into problems Airbus having a back-up plan for the A350 might not be a bad idea. With PW pretty much out of the widebody business we need RR and GE just as much as we need Airbus and Boeing.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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flee
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:37 pm

RR exited IAE to focus on large turbofans while PW took control of IAE to more effectively compete with GE.

Although the CFM LEAP is a huge success, it is still a JV. Post EA GP72xx and GE90, they will need more sales. I agree that GE is exploring some business opportunities with Airbus as Boeing does not seem to be able to launch a new model anytime soon.
 
Someone83
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:58 pm

Could we see a potenial dual supplier situation in a possible A350neo?
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:11 pm

I agree that the A350 and A330NEO programs could benefit from a second engine option.
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that GE (American) engines are a wrong option.
Reason one: US is a unreliable trade partner. Because of US trade sanctions Airbus can't deliver:
6x A320CEO, 7x A321CEO, 32x A320NEO, 8x A330-200, 28x A330-900 & 16x A350-1000 to Iran Air.
And they can't offer planes to other Iranian airlines because there is >10% USA supplied content in the planes.
So I think airbus should try to eliminate as much US content from it's product, so they aren't effected by the trade sanctions of the USA.
Offering an GE engine option will increase US content, in my oppinion counter productive.
Reason 2: is GE allowed to offer the GEnX to airbus, because it's developed with funding from the US government and Boeing.
Boeing made funded the development in exchange for the engine not being offered to Airbus.
Reason 3: One of the reasons the A380 program had to close was that Engine Aliance (GE + P&W) didn't offer GP7000 engines for the latest order from Emirates.
I think Airbus should try to get P&W (canada) back into the widebody engines, they have experiance with GTF's (the PW1000).
If an new engine option should be offered for the A350 or A330 it should be a GTF, the RR Ultrafan or a P&W product. Afaik, GTF isn't developed by GE.
But above all, all engine EOM's are delivering engines with unsufficient reliability, this must be corrected before new product should be offered.
That's my opinion, agreed to disagree.
I think a RR GTF for the A320 and A220 is a much more likely and interesting program for Airbus.
 
jghealey
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:17 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I agree that the A350 and A330NEO programs could benefit from a second engine option.
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that GE (American) engines are a wrong option.
Reason one: US is a unreliable trade partner. Because of US trade sanctions Airbus can't deliver:
6x A320CEO, 7x A321CEO, 32x A320NEO, 8x A330-200, 28x A330-900 & 16x A350-1000 to Iran Air.
And they can't offer planes to other Iranian airlines because there is >10% USA supplied content in the planes.
So I think airbus should try to eliminate as much US content from it's product, so they aren't effected by the trade sanctions of the USA.
Offering an GE engine option will increase US content, in my oppinion counter productive.

Not having US parts is totally irrelevant as regardless of the engines/engine maker they choose they're always going to have US parts. Even Russian aircraft are using US parts - surely it would be very hard for Airbus to move completely away from them. The cost savings for sticking with US parts (vs switching to others, but I don't know where they'd get these others from...) would certainly total more than the profits from the Iran Air order anyway - and after all this is only one order. The US naturally is also a very large market for Airbus.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I agree that the A350 and A330NEO programs could benefit from a second engine option.
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that GE (American) engines are a wrong option.
Reason one: US is a unreliable trade partner. Because of US trade sanctions Airbus can't deliver:
6x A320CEO, 7x A321CEO, 32x A320NEO, 8x A330-200, 28x A330-900 & 16x A350-1000 to Iran Air.
And they can't offer planes to other Iranian airlines because there is >10% USA supplied content in the planes.
So I think airbus should try to eliminate as much US content from it's product, so they aren't effected by the trade sanctions of the USA.
Offering an GE engine option will increase US content, in my oppinion counter productive.
Reason 2: is GE allowed to offer the GEnX to airbus, because it's developed with funding from the US government and Boeing.
Boeing made funded the development in exchange for the engine not being offered to Airbus.
Reason 3: One of the reasons the A380 program had to close was that Engine Aliance (GE + P&W) didn't offer GP7000 engines for the latest order from Emirates.
I think Airbus should try to get P&W (canada) back into the widebody engines, they have experiance with GTF's (the PW1000).
If an new engine option should be offered for the A350 or A330 it should be a GTF, the RR Ultrafan or a P&W product. Afaik, GTF isn't developed by GE.
But above all, all engine EOM's are delivering engines with unsufficient reliability, this must be corrected before new product should be offered.
That's my opinion, agreed to disagree.
I think a RR GTF for the A320 and A220 is a much more likely and interesting program for Airbus.


You are aware P&W is an American company, and the PW1000 is an American product, correct?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:48 pm

Polot wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I agree that the A350 and A330NEO programs could benefit from a second engine option.
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that GE (American) engines are a wrong option.
Reason one: US is a unreliable trade partner. Because of US trade sanctions Airbus can't deliver:
6x A320CEO, 7x A321CEO, 32x A320NEO, 8x A330-200, 28x A330-900 & 16x A350-1000 to Iran Air.
And they can't offer planes to other Iranian airlines because there is >10% USA supplied content in the planes.
So I think airbus should try to eliminate as much US content from it's product, so they aren't effected by the trade sanctions of the USA.
Offering an GE engine option will increase US content, in my oppinion counter productive.
Reason 2: is GE allowed to offer the GEnX to airbus, because it's developed with funding from the US government and Boeing.
Boeing made funded the development in exchange for the engine not being offered to Airbus.
Reason 3: One of the reasons the A380 program had to close was that Engine Aliance (GE + P&W) didn't offer GP7000 engines for the latest order from Emirates.
I think Airbus should try to get P&W (canada) back into the widebody engines, they have experiance with GTF's (the PW1000).
If an new engine option should be offered for the A350 or A330 it should be a GTF, the RR Ultrafan or a P&W product. Afaik, GTF isn't developed by GE.
But above all, all engine EOM's are delivering engines with unsufficient reliability, this must be corrected before new product should be offered.
That's my opinion, agreed to disagree.
I think a RR GTF for the A320 and A220 is a much more likely and interesting program for Airbus.


You are aware P&W is an American company, and the PW1000 is an American product, correct?

Can the UK really be considered a stable trading partner with the EU right now?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:58 pm

jghealey wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I agree that the A350 and A330NEO programs could benefit from a second engine option.
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that GE (American) engines are a wrong option.
Reason one: US is a unreliable trade partner. Because of US trade sanctions Airbus can't deliver:
6x A320CEO, 7x A321CEO, 32x A320NEO, 8x A330-200, 28x A330-900 & 16x A350-1000 to Iran Air.
And they can't offer planes to other Iranian airlines because there is >10% USA supplied content in the planes.
So I think airbus should try to eliminate as much US content from it's product, so they aren't effected by the trade sanctions of the USA.
Offering an GE engine option will increase US content, in my oppinion counter productive.

Not having US parts is totally irrelevant as regardless of the engines/engine maker they choose they're always going to have US parts. Even Russian aircraft are using US parts - surely it would be very hard for Airbus to move completely away from them. The cost savings for sticking with US parts (vs switching to others, but I don't know where they'd get these others from...) would certainly total more than the profits from the Iran Air order anyway - and after all this is only one order. The US naturally is also a very large market for Airbus.

I forgot to mention the import terrif on Airbus products made outside of the USA because of the Airbus USA fair trade case, while we are waiting for the results of the Boeing Europe case.
In my oppinion the USA might have their American first, America producing for America => America isolated. It will be beter for all the rest of the world.
I'll stop this discussion/anti-USA sentiment here, let's go back to topic.

Why is GE making a 180deg turn on it's widebody engine program. First they refused to supply their new products to Airbus. AFAIK, GE preferred being the sole supplier for Boeing products.
Is GE so affraid of Boeing going into chapter 11/ restructuring before bankruptcy?
Indeed the situation of Boeing is really really bad:
- 747 and 767 at end of program surviving on freighters and the US tanker program.
- the 787 getting insufficient orders to sustain the (very high) delivery rate of 14/month, thus having to ramp back down.
- The 737MAX in combination with the 737 pinklefork problem (I expect that it will also effect the 737MAX, aka significantly higher CASM).
But I expect Boeing will recover from this self induced mess. (I'm certainly hoping they will, because that's best for aviation)

In basic theory a second engine option is good for an aircraft program, because airline can select an aircraft and later select the engines. This gives more negotiating room for the airline.
I think that has been one of the reason's the 787 is so successful. And this is also true for A320NEO.
GE was the main engine supplier for regional aircraft with it's GE CF-34, that engine is the only current option for US scope clause aircraft. (E175).
The core of the PW1000 has reliability issues both in the PW1100G as well as on the PW1500. Because the PW1500 and PW1900 are so similar I expect it will also be effected. All new regional aircraft (being developed) have chosen for the P&W GTF. But AFAIK the GTF with current tech. is to heavy for scope clause. Only the MRJ/ Spacejet might be scopeclause complient when development is finally finnished.
Thus GE might lose it's market donating GE CF-34, I they don't take action. I think this should be the focus for GE.
Develop a version of the GE Passport that could be used to re-engine the E175 making it 10-15% more efficient while staying scope compliant.
 
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Polot
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:05 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Why is GE making a 180deg turn on it's widebody engine program. First they refused to supply their new products to Airbus. AFAIK, GE preferred being the sole supplier for Boeing products.

Where are you getting that idea from? As someone previously mentioned GE was going to be the sole supplier for the original A350. The reason they are not on the new A350 is because they didn’t want to develop a new engine in direct competition with the GE90/GE9X (which is a logical business decision), and Airbus would only allow them if they had an engine for the entire product range (GE just wanted to power the -800/900). GE bided for the A330neo, Airbus is the one who selected RR (both RR and GE would only do the program is they got exclusivity).
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:09 pm

Polot wrote:
You are aware P&W is an American company, and the PW1000 is an American product, correct?

I am aware P&W is an American company, though you have the Canadian subsidiary.
Airbus is listed on the AEX (Netherlands stock exchange) and has it's headquarters in the Netherlands, but they have hardly any production in the Netherlands. Are they a Dutch company?
I agree the PW1000 is an P&W (America) product, but the PW1100G is developed jointly with several European companies, and several factories are located in Europe. That's why it is a small percentage more efficient than the other members of the PW1000 family.
RR has it's headquarters in the UK, and the majority of it's widebody engine factories are in the UK. But the regional jet engines are developed and build in Germany, and also the Ultrafan gearbox is an German product.

Back to GE, thay also share work packeges with Safran (France) and Avio Aero (Italy) so how American are they. The story isn't black and white.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:16 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Can the UK really be considered a stable trading partner with the EU right now?

In my opinion NO, also the UK is an unreliable trade partner.
We have to get past Brexit ASAP, it's hindering trade and R&D a lot.
I'm actually done with the UK, the point of now return has been passed for over a year now, get done with it.
Rejoining the EU can only happen as full compliant partner, Euro, open borders everything. You have wasted the special position you had.
I'm expecting Airbus will move work out of the UK into Europe or China, Canada/USA. But that's my informed expectation.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:21 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Polot wrote:
You are aware P&W is an American company, and the PW1000 is an American product, correct?

I am aware P&W is an American company, though you have the Canadian subsidiary.
Airbus is listed on the AEX (Netherlands stock exchange) and has it's headquarters in the Netherlands, but they have hardly any production in the Netherlands. Are they a Dutch company?


PWC is a division of PW (an American company), themselves a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp (UTC), also an American company. PWC is not some independent and autonomous company able to make deals with Airbus- PW/UTC are ultimately the ones in charge and decides who develops what and who gets the R&D money. PWC’s focus is on small/regional engines. It is unlikely they will be tasked with developing a wide body GTF.

If your concerns about GE are because America is an unreliable trading company and they use US government funds to help development, well I got some bad news for you: those points apply equally to PW[C]

I agree the PW1000 is an P&W (America) product, but the PW1100G is developed jointly with several European companies, and several factories are located in Europe. That's why it is a small percentage more efficient than the other members of the PW1000 family.


There is no “PW1000” engine- that is the name of the family. Yes the PW1100G had partners, but the IP is still principally owned by an American company and all your hysteria about GE on Airbus applies equally to PW and the Purepower family.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:27 pm

Polot wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Why is GE making a 180deg turn on it's widebody engine program. First they refused to supply their new products to Airbus. AFAIK, GE preferred being the sole supplier for Boeing products.

Where are you getting that idea from? As someone previously mentioned GE was going to be the sole supplier for the original A350. The reason they are not on the new A350 is because they didn’t want to develop a new engine in direct competition with the GE90/GE9X (which is a logical business decision), and Airbus would only allow them if they had an engine for the entire product range (GE just wanted to power the -800/900). GE bided for the A330neo, Airbus is the one who selected RR (both RR and GE would only do the program is they got exclusivity).


Afaik RR's exclusivity is only on the A350-1000 because they had to significantly improve it's thrust level.
Couldn't GE have developed a GE90 successor for both the A350 and 777 they serve the same market.
They didn't because that would piss off Boeing, and they were pissed of by being left out of developing the A350 when the A340-500/-600 were developed. But my recolection of the A350XWB development could be wrong. I still think that the original A350 proposal replacing the A340-200/-300 instead of the A340-500/-600 would have been better on the long run.
Possibly this makes it understandable why Airbus prefered RR as A350XWB engine supplier instead of GE.
I think Airbus preference for RR on the A330NEO (A340-200&-300 successor mainly) had to do with the A380.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:42 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Polot wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Why is GE making a 180deg turn on it's widebody engine program. First they refused to supply their new products to Airbus. AFAIK, GE preferred being the sole supplier for Boeing products.

Where are you getting that idea from? As someone previously mentioned GE was going to be the sole supplier for the original A350. The reason they are not on the new A350 is because they didn’t want to develop a new engine in direct competition with the GE90/GE9X (which is a logical business decision), and Airbus would only allow them if they had an engine for the entire product range (GE just wanted to power the -800/900). GE bided for the A330neo, Airbus is the one who selected RR (both RR and GE would only do the program is they got exclusivity).


Afaik RR's exclusivity is only on the A350-1000 because they had to significantly improve it's thrust level.
Couldn't GE have developed a GE90 successor for both the A350 and 777 they serve the same market.
They didn't because that would piss off Boeing, and they were pissed of by being left out of developing the A350 when the A340-500/-600 were developed. But my recolection of the A350XWB development could be wrong. I still think that the original A350 proposal replacing the A340-200/-300 instead of the A340-500/-600 would have been better on the long run.
Possibly this makes it understandable why Airbus prefered RR as A350XWB engine supplier instead of GE.
I think Airbus preference for RR on the A330NEO (A340-200&-300 successor mainly) had to do with the A380.


Developing engines cost a lot of money. GE had no desire spending billions on a brand new engine for the 777/A350 after they just spent billions on the GEnx that they needed to recuperate while the GE90 (which this new engine would kill) was earning GE tons of money from 77W sales

Engine OEMs do not exist to serve Airbus/Boeing’s every whim. There needs to be a proper business case for the engine OEM. The way the A340NG/77W shaked out was the primary reason that Airbus basically shifted to RR only and Boeing principally GE.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:22 pm

Polot wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Polot wrote:
Where are you getting that idea from? As someone previously mentioned GE was going to be the sole supplier for the original A350. The reason they are not on the new A350 is because they didn’t want to develop a new engine in direct competition with the GE90/GE9X (which is a logical business decision), and Airbus would only allow them if they had an engine for the entire product range (GE just wanted to power the -800/900). GE bided for the A330neo, Airbus is the one who selected RR (both RR and GE would only do the program is they got exclusivity).


Afaik RR's exclusivity is only on the A350-1000 because they had to significantly improve it's thrust level.
Couldn't GE have developed a GE90 successor for both the A350 and 777 they serve the same market.
They didn't because that would piss off Boeing, and they were pissed of by being left out of developing the A350 when the A340-500/-600 were developed. But my recolection of the A350XWB development could be wrong. I still think that the original A350 proposal replacing the A340-200/-300 instead of the A340-500/-600 would have been better on the long run.
Possibly this makes it understandable why Airbus prefered RR as A350XWB engine supplier instead of GE.
I think Airbus preference for RR on the A330NEO (A340-200&-300 successor mainly) had to do with the A380.


Developing engines cost a lot of money. GE.

Exactly and therefore it is quite stupid to use the developed expensive technology only for one model. It is also not smart not to scale production by several model to achieve economy of scales effects.
The A350 and the 787 are the best selling WB. To ignore that models as engine supplier would be really a strange decision. So what would they think they should serve?
Last edited by sciing on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:23 pm

Polot wrote:
CFRPwingALbody wrote:
Why is GE making a 180deg turn on it's widebody engine program. First they refused to supply their new products to Airbus. AFAIK, GE preferred being the sole supplier for Boeing products.

Where are you getting that idea from? As someone previously mentioned GE was going to be the sole supplier for the original A350. The reason they are not on the new A350 is because they didn’t want to develop a new engine in direct competition with the GE90/GE9X (which is a logical business decision), and Airbus would only allow them if they had an engine for the entire product range (GE just wanted to power the -800/900). GE bided for the A330neo, Airbus is the one who selected RR (both RR and GE would only do the program is they got exclusivity).


It is questionable, that it was a logical or sound business decision by GE, to remove itself from the A350. The 777-300ER was fading and the 777-9 would have a more limited appeal. With the A350 it was either in or out for GE. GE choose out of the second biggest wide body line, while having only part of the biggest wide body line.
The second line programs, the 777-9 and the A330neo are exclusively GE and RR respectively.
As long as RR keeps being on some 787, GE has managed itself into playing long time second fiddle to RR in wide body engines.

The 767's future seems to be PW as the biggest part will be tankers in the future.

So GE tries to get a new engine on the 767 and wants to be considered when the A350 gets neoed. What a surprise. :sarcastic:
 
queb
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:38 pm

For me, a GE9X derivative engine would be a far better option for an A350neo than a GEnx-1 based engine. There's is huge thrust difference between the GEnx-1 and the Trent XWB-97.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:46 pm

mjoelnir wrote:

As long as RR keeps being on some 787...

For what it's worth, 371 of the first 1,000 787s will have RR and 629 GE. A 37% share is surely disappointing to RR but it still translates into around 800 engines (including spares) and there's a lot of life left in both the T1000 and 787.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:12 pm

Polot wrote:
You are aware P&W is an American company, and the PW1000 is an American product, correct?

FAL is Montreal Mirabel so "Canadian made with US content" applies.
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
So GE tries to get a new engine on the 767 and wants to be considered when the A350 gets neoed. What a surprise. :sarcastic:

I'm somewhat surprised because GE is a mess financially, I would not have thought they would not be that interested in getting on to 767 or A350 at this point in time.

Of course RR is also a mess financially so GE's interest in the A350 bread winner can't be welcomed back in Derby.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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BoeingVista
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:34 pm

Let me quickly paraphrase where this thread is going:

Yes! Airbus needs GE and dual sourcing on A350neo because of A, B, C

No! Boeing doesn't need RR and dual sourcing on the 777x because of A, B, C

A, B & C will be the same.
BV
 
smartplane
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
So GE tries to get a new engine on the 767 and wants to be considered when the A350 gets neoed. What a surprise. :sarcastic:

I'm somewhat surprised because GE is a mess financially, I would not have thought they would not be that interested in getting on to 767 or A350 at this point in time.

Of course RR is also a mess financially so GE's interest in the A350 bread winner can't be welcomed back in Derby.

Airbus and RR have been edging closer, with Airbus objectives to influence product fixes, new developments and air frame sales, and RR's need for a partner with deep pockets.

Airbus don't want a 787 engine repetition. Or PW1000 / GTF issues with future new engines. Despite Airbus and EK spin, the trigger for the cancelled A380 orders was EA and RR both refusing to submit meaningful quotes, a red flag to both Boeing and Airbus.

GE need a partner with deep pockets too, and until MAX, they thought they had one with Boeing, with a marriage of some type seemingly inevitable. The subsequent global focus on grandfathering, plus issues specific to Boeing, has slowed 777X sales (GE engine issues have conveniently taken the spotlight off Boeing), and slowdown in actual and prospective WB sales, means GE is exposed.

But would legislators and the military be keen to see two weakened entities combined?

GE interest in hanging engines on Airbus air frames, is as much about 'disturbing' the Airbus / RR courtship, as selling engines. Evidence of recent Airbus / GE sales discussions, enables GE to argue Airbus acquiring RR would decrease perceived and actual competition.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:27 pm

smartplane wrote:
GE interest in hanging engines on Airbus air frames, is as much about 'disturbing' the Airbus / RR courtship, as selling engines.

Yes, I saw this also as GE injecting some fear, uncertainty and doubt into RR's head at a time of many tribulations for RR.

In addition to building antitrust kinds of fears, it also makes RR be less aggressive in sales campaigns if they feel the A350 de-facto monopoly is under threat.

Yet as above it's not clear GEnX is a big enough engine to suit the product line nor that GE would back up its words with actions due to its own fiscal maladies.

A GE9X derivative sized to power 787-10, A359 and A3510 would really shake up the market place, but would be a huge gamble for GE as well.
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TranscendZac
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:15 pm

Not to stray too far off topic, but could the MAX issues have been fortuitous for Airbus's wide body market as it seems the lack of MAX deliveries has potentially set Boeing back from being in a financial position to offer something new anytime soon? I know there is a lot of talk about MoM/NMA but with Airbus clearly at a competitive advantage in the NB market and a quite competitive WB offering with the 339/A350, it seems Airbus is more in a position to keep the A350 at the leading edge in engine tech and able to make any moves they need to in the NB market, which should be for quite some time judging by the success of the A320NEO.

A GE offering on the A350 is interesting. How does GE offer a beefed up GEnX to provide the thrust requirements of the A350? Are we talking substantial redesign or fan/nacelle size increases? I don't know anything technically speaking about upscaling jet engines.
Zac
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:38 pm

The strange part of the article is when engines are named. A GEnx, even beefed up and with some GE9X technologies, would hardly be something one could call a neo, rather a second engine. AFAIK RR has the exclusive contract and again AFAIK, did not only hit specs, but exceeded specs with the TrenXWB.

We can expect a serious offering from RR for a neo version. I imagine GE has to show something more advanced too,
 
speedbird52
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:42 pm

I have a hard time calling a GEnx powered A350 a NEO. Both the XWB and GEnx use the same technology. Isn't this just an alternative engine option? I would like to see this go through though. Competition is always good for the industry.
 
JohanTally
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:51 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
I have a hard time calling a GEnx powered A350 a NEO. Both the XWB and GEnx use the same technology. Isn't this just an alternative engine option? I would like to see this go through though. Competition is always good for the industry.


Rolls Royce Trent engine design is over 30 years old but drastically improved just like the GEnx would be
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:02 pm

TranscendZac wrote:
Not to stray too far off topic, but could the MAX issues have been fortuitous for Airbus's wide body market as it seems the lack of MAX deliveries has potentially set Boeing back from being in a financial position to offer something new anytime soon? I know there is a lot of talk about MoM/NMA but with Airbus clearly at a competitive advantage in the NB market and a quite competitive WB offering with the 339/A350, it seems Airbus is more in a position to keep the A350 at the leading edge in engine tech and able to make any moves they need to in the NB market, which should be for quite some time judging by the success of the A320NEO.

In my oppinion; No, the MAX issue isn't the reason Boeing can not close the MoM/NMA businesscase. The real reason is that Airbus can always beat them to market with a product from their past. And Airbus would have to spend a lot less into the development.

quote="TranscendZac"]A GE offering on the A350 is interesting. How does GE offer a beefed up GEnX to provide the thrust requirements of the A350? Are we talking substantial redesign or fan/nacelle size increases? I don't know anything technically speaking about upscaling jet engines.[/quote]
How different are the GEnX and GE9X? Isn't the GE9X an improved and beefed-up version of the GEnX.
GE refused to offer to develop the GE9X or beefed-up GEnX for the Airbus A350-1000 and only offered the GEnX-1 for the A350-800 & -900.
Obviously Airbus chose for RR that develop the increased thrust version of the Trent-XWB for Airbus.
I also find the situation with the RR trent engines odd, why are there problems on the Boeing 787, (the Trent-1000 & Trent-1000TEN)
while the Airbus A350 (-XWB) and A330NEO (Trent-7000) appear to not suffer from problems.
In my oppinion GE has to set up a European engine production line if they want to supply engines for Airbus widebodies.
I agree that this appears to be a marketing tactic to influence the relation between RR and Airbus.
 
speedbird52
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:22 pm

JohanTally wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I have a hard time calling a GEnx powered A350 a NEO. Both the XWB and GEnx use the same technology. Isn't this just an alternative engine option? I would like to see this go through though. Competition is always good for the industry.


Rolls Royce Trent engine design is over 30 years old but drastically improved just like the GEnx would be

Yeah but the GEnX isn't a drastic improvement over the Trent XWB
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:26 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I have a hard time calling a GEnx powered A350 a NEO. Both the XWB and GEnx use the same technology. Isn't this just an alternative engine option? I would like to see this go through though. Competition is always good for the industry.


Rolls Royce Trent engine design is over 30 years old but drastically improved just like the GEnx would be

Yeah but the GEnX isn't a drastic improvement over the Trent XWB


The Tren1000ten is comparable to the GEnX. The TrentXWB is more advanced.
 
travelhound
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:32 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
I have a hard time calling a GEnx powered A350 a NEO. Both the XWB and GEnx use the same technology. Isn't this just an alternative engine option? I would like to see this go through though. Competition is always good for the industry.


If I remember correctly GE / Boeing were planning on upgrading the 787 with new engine tech / PIP's somewhere around 2024. Airbus could piggy back off the back of these upgrades.

From the sales data to date, 777-300ER customers are not climbing over each other to order the 77X, This could be a low cost option to keep those customers loyal to GE if they decide to look at a different model aircraft going forward..
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:44 am

eamondzhang wrote:
I honestly think it's more on GE realising they can't only provide engines to Boeing

For clarity, not that they're actually in such a situation... and arguably, were ever on a path to be.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
astuteman
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:50 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The strange part of the article is when engines are named. A GEnx, even beefed up and with some GE9X technologies, would hardly be something one could call a neo, rather a second engine. AFAIK RR has the exclusive contract and again AFAIK, did not only hit specs, but exceeded specs with the TrenXWB.

We can expect a serious offering from RR for a neo version. I imagine GE has to show something more advanced too,


This feels strange for me too.
From my seat, a GENx1 based engine is an alternative engine for the A330NEO, not the A350XWB.

The biggest reason I can see for Airbus wanting to re-engine the A350XWB - a very modern aircraft, with the most advanced engines currently in service, is to provide higher thrust variants to allow a larger version of A350XWB, differentiating it further from the A330NEO, and covering off the 777X even further.

Rgds
 
JohanTally
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:18 am

mjoelnir wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:

Rolls Royce Trent engine design is over 30 years old but drastically improved just like the GEnx would be

Yeah but the GEnX isn't a drastic improvement over the Trent XWB


The Tren1000ten is comparable to the GEnX. The TrentXWB is more advanced.


Whatever is being offered would have to realize a significant fuel improvement over the current XWB. GEnx is an engine program that is constantly trying increase efficiency and reduce maintenance frequency just like RR with Trent and the upcoming Ultrafan. It could be Airbus trying to keep RR honest with their pricing on future propulsion scenarios
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:43 am

astuteman wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The strange part of the article is when engines are named. A GEnx, even beefed up and with some GE9X technologies, would hardly be something one could call a neo, rather a second engine. AFAIK RR has the exclusive contract and again AFAIK, did not only hit specs, but exceeded specs with the TrenXWB.

We can expect a serious offering from RR for a neo version. I imagine GE has to show something more advanced too,


This feels strange for me too.
From my seat, a GENx1 based engine is an alternative engine for the A330NEO, not the A350XWB.

The biggest reason I can see for Airbus wanting to re-engine the A350XWB - a very modern aircraft, with the most advanced engines currently in service, is to provide higher thrust variants to allow a larger version of A350XWB, differentiating it further from the A330NEO, and covering off the 777X even further.

Rgds

TFA said:

The discussions, some of which were held at Airbus in Toulouse, France in October, are focused on a significantly advanced GEnx-1 variant incorporating an air bleed system and material and design enhancements derived from the GE9X developed for Boeing’s delayed 777X. The engine would be aimed at a potential re-engined A350neo (new engine option) upgrade that Airbus is thought to be studying for introduction in the second half of the 2020s.

So to me the question is "what can GE add to GEnX from GE9X to make a viable A350neo candidate in the 2nd half of the 2020s?".

If the UltraFan is what we project it to be, and business relationships are what we know they are to be, it's pretty darn hard to picture GE making its way on to an A350neo.
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hooverman
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:10 am

KLM: :o
 
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Aesma
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:24 am

I'm all for a GE offer on the A350, however it wouldn't be an A350neo at this point, more of a A350aeo (another engine option :d).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
xwb565
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:08 pm

Airlines for the most part always want choices. As others have pointed out unless GE is able to work out a substantial fuel burn reduction on the Genx, this does not make sense for any a350 neo. My understanding is RR does not have a formal exclusivity agreement on the -900.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:23 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Airlines for the most part always want choices. As others have pointed out unless GE is able to work out a substantial fuel burn reduction on the Genx, this does not make sense for any a350 neo. My understanding is RR does not have a formal exclusivity agreement on the -900.


My understanding is that RR only have exclusivity on the -1000.
 
VV
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:59 pm

It sounds like Airbus is trying to get some data on GEnx, in order to understand what is in the pipeline for GEnx improvement for the 787.

I must admit it is a very clever way to get some intelligence about the 787 and possible GEnx improvement.
 
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:06 pm

VV wrote:
It sounds like Airbus is trying to get some data on GEnx, in order to understand what is in the pipeline for GEnx improvement for the 787.

I must admit it is a very clever way to get some intelligence about the 787 and possible GEnx improvement.

The flip side of that is GE will learn what targets Airbus is trying to meet for A350neo and by inference what targets Airbus is expecting UltraFan to meet.
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:30 pm

Kindanew wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Airlines for the most part always want choices. As others have pointed out unless GE is able to work out a substantial fuel burn reduction on the Genx, this does not make sense for any a350 neo. My understanding is RR does not have a formal exclusivity agreement on the -900.

My understanding is that RR only have exclusivity on the -1000.

Yes, and we don't know how long that A350-1000 exclusivity lasts.

I doubt it's forever, I thought other contracts had 10 to 20 years but that's going from memory.

Where is Lightsaber when you need him? :biggrin:

Note that GE itself only had two year exclusivity on the original A350.

Maybe the talks are about A350neo just to trigger a release from RR's exclusivity?

And of course doing A359 only is a possible option since that's where most of the sales are.
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par13del
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:06 pm

GE was exclusive on the 777W, RR survived and is now exclusive on the A350.
GE is exclusive on the 777X, Airbus is upgrading and upsizing the A350, is GE attempting to get in on the 777X alternative?
RR is on the way to being exclusive on the A330 all versions.
RR has a good share on the 787, and despite their problems, the lack of a common pylon is now bearing fruit.

So in addition to all the other financial problems including the joint venture, does GE have the funds or investor confidence to actually do any new projects at this time? If Airbus is throwing a bone, maybe Boeing will do the same and launch the NMA which GE is at present the only vendor?
 
lowbank
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:22 pm

My memory of the events of the early years of the XWB was as follows.
The early ask from Airbus was an engine that could power all 3 variants only using electronics to vary power requirements.
P and W offered two variants in the beginning which was rejected by Airbus.
Both RR and GE offered what was required.
Then Airbus increased the ask for the largest variant from low 90k to the 97k required now.

GE then could only offer two different engines which my recollection was they didn’t want to do that.
RR could no longer offer the same engine either but agreed to design an engine that would fit inside the same nacelles of the lower powered version.
This made the design of the 97k a massive challenge, the fan blades needing to be larger, that meant the disc had to shrink and room for other components was also restrictive.

Airbus are looking at a NEO, why would you not ask all engine suppliers to offer new products.
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:29 pm

par13del wrote:
So in addition to all the other financial problems including the joint venture, does GE have the funds or investor confidence to actually do any new projects at this time?

It's a good question.

To me this all reeks of marketing guys paying calls on potential customers to see what possibilities might happen rather than following a solid lead.

Yet as the article says there are only so many opportunities out there, and getting a slice of an A359neo might be worth the effort for GE.

If Airbus is throwing a bone, maybe Boeing will do the same and launch the NMA which GE is at present the only vendor?

To be fair NMA is CFM not GE, so both GE and Safran have skin in the game.

Safran's involvement may lessen the impact of GE's current maladies and organizational politics may also be supportive of participating on NMA.

lowbank wrote:
RR could no longer offer the same engine either but agreed to design an engine that would fit inside the same nacelles of the lower powered version.
This made the design of the 97k a massive challenge, the fan blades needing to be larger, that meant the disc had to shrink and room for other components was also restrictive.

Very interesting!

I also thought N1 was quite a bit higher, thus needing improved bearings, more challenges with tip clearance, etc.

Airbus are looking at a NEO, why would you not ask all engine suppliers to offer new products

Agreed.
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VV
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Re: A350neo with GE engines?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
It sounds like Airbus is trying to get some data on GEnx, in order to understand what is in the pipeline for GEnx improvement for the 787.

I must admit it is a very clever way to get some intelligence about the 787 and possible GEnx improvement.

The flip side of that is GE will learn what targets Airbus is trying to meet for A350neo and by inference what targets Airbus is expecting UltraFan to meet.


I do not think it works that way.

But I think this is a very good opportunity for GE to propose something off just to create a smoke screen of their real intent.

Very frankly it is very difficult to dislodge the incumbent from it position. The A350 with Trent engine already has several hundred orders.

In addition, the Trent 1000 is on the A330neo, so I do not know how GEnx can go on the A350. At best it can power the A330neo-neo.
The story would have been different if they are talking about a derivative of the GE9X.

In my opinion, this story is too strange to be true.

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