DBCooper
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:16 am

DIA could expand train capacity tomorrow if Pre-Check was consistently available on the bridge to Concourse A...and if that checkpoint had expanded hours.

-DBC
 
mkorpal333
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:30 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:10 pm

I wonder if the plans for the south of Pena runway have been altered after the rail line to downtown was built. The taxiway the plans show would cut through an area that already has elevated rail.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:38 pm

mkorpal333 wrote:
I wonder if the plans for the south of Pena runway have been altered after the rail line to downtown was built. The taxiway the plans show would cut through an area that already has elevated rail.


The area where the taxiway would go is at grade. They would have to build a bridge over 78th as well as Pena, so going over the rail line wouldnt be a big deal. The 7/25 runway already has a bit of elevation compared to 78th and the rail line.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
DBCooper
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:35 am

2 simple things would create more train capacity from the Main Hall/Terminal to Concourses A/B/C:
1. Open up the A Bridge Pre-Check more often. It is often closed which forces all Pre-Check passengers on to the train after Main Hall Pre-Check screening
2. Expand the opening hours of the A Bridge Security Checkpoint. Despite the fact there are "red-eye" departures from Concourse A, it is often shut down in the evening

-DBC
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3552
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:59 am

DBCooper wrote:
2 simple things would create more train capacity from the Main Hall/Terminal to Concourses A/B/C:
1. Open up the A Bridge Pre-Check more often. It is often closed which forces all Pre-Check passengers on to the train after Main Hall Pre-Check screening
2. Expand the opening hours of the A Bridge Security Checkpoint. Despite the fact there are "red-eye" departures from Concourse A, it is often shut down in the evening

-DBC

1. Marginal precheck volume is not going to fix the issue, any benefit will be overwhelmed with growth in a year. And the times the train has issues the lanes are already open anyway.
2. The train doesn't have issues at those times so there is zero benefit.

The times where they train is most congested is simultaneous to when everything is open.
 
DEN1895
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:05 am

DBCooper wrote:
2 simple things would create more train capacity from the Main Hall/Terminal to Concourses A/B/C:
1. Open up the A Bridge Pre-Check more often. It is often closed which forces all Pre-Check passengers on to the train after Main Hall Pre-Check screening
2. Expand the opening hours of the A Bridge Security Checkpoint. Despite the fact there are "red-eye" departures from Concourse A, it is often shut down in the evening

-DBC


Luckily both of those issues will go away after the remodel is complete as both new security checkpoints can feed into the A Bridge, unfortunately that is still a few years away, and TSA staffing just can't support keeping that many lanes open all day. For arriving passengers, the airport recently started staffing people on A concourse near the escalators to the bridge to encourage people to take the bridge to the main terminal. Long term there has been discussion of flipping the escalators up to the bridge to make them more obvious to arriving passengers.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:11 am

DEN is too far west. 2/3 of the US population lives east of the Mississippi, and that will always favor ATL and ORD imo.

Having said that, the seemingly endless possibilites there given the size and scope of the airport project are awe inspiring.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:09 am

Is not the long term train solution to create another entrance at the other end of the terminal. Similar to how ATL now has the international entrance. DEN could do the same but not make it domestic/international but say United/Southwest. Train situation solved.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
lessredtape
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:51 am

the bigger an airport becomes, the less user friendly it becomes. Great for the airport operator.

Why would anyone want to fly to Denver, if skiing when EGE is much more consumer friendly ?
Last edited by lessredtape on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:04 am

lessredtape wrote:
the bigger an airport becomes, the less user friendly it becomes. Great for the airport operator.

Why would anyone want to fly to Denver, when EGE is much more consumer friendly ?


Because EGE is 2.5 hours from Denver on it’s best day and isolated completely from Denver on its worst? EGE is not close to anything except the ski areas so if you are going skiing then yeah go to EGE.

Also you can’t connect to anywhere out of EGE so there is that too.
 
lessredtape
Posts: 60
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:22 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
the bigger an airport becomes, the less user friendly it becomes. Great for the airport operator.

Why would anyone want to fly to Denver, when EGE is much more consumer friendly ?


Because EGE is 2.5 hours from Denver on it’s best day and isolated completely from Denver on its worst? EGE is not close to anything except the ski areas so if you are going skiing then yeah go to EGE.

Also you can’t connect to anywhere out of EGE so there is that too.
ok edited earlier post.

DEN just seems so badly designed with rental cars miles away. Surely the train could have been extended to cars ?

You can often get AA/QF frequent flyer seats LAX/JFK via EGE at busy times of year, when no nonstop ff seats available.

For most of northern winter, you can fly LAX/EGE with 60 to 90 mins at EGE before flying EGE/JFK. Not same aircraft though. A319 LAX/EGE & B757 EGE/JFK.
 
DEN1895
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:30 am

lessredtape wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
the bigger an airport becomes, the less user friendly it becomes. Great for the airport operator.

Why would anyone want to fly to Denver, when EGE is much more consumer friendly ?


Because EGE is 2.5 hours from Denver on it’s best day and isolated completely from Denver on its worst? EGE is not close to anything except the ski areas so if you are going skiing then yeah go to EGE.

Also you can’t connect to anywhere out of EGE so there is that too.
ok edited earlier post.

DEN just seems so badly designed with rental cars miles away. Surely the train could have been extended to cars ?

You can often get AA/QF frequent flyer seats LAX/JFK via EGE at busy times of year, when no nonstop ff seats available.

For most of northern winter, you can fly LAX/EGE with 60 to 90 mins at EGE before flying EGE/JFK. Not same aircraft though. A319 LAX/EGE & B757 EGE/JFK.


It is true that the bigger an airport gets the less consumer friendly it becomes, but there is no good way to solve that issue. At least at DEN everything is connected on the air side compared to SFO, JFK, or LAX.

In regards to the rental car facilities, there have been plans to build a second train to cover the landside facilities or a CONRAC but the airport is hesitant to spend that much money as rental cars are becoming less popular with Uber and Lyft becoming more popular. With the first phase of the Pena rebuild the buses will have some dedicated lanes which should help some.
 
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intotheair
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:26 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
Is not the long term train solution to create another entrance at the other end of the terminal. Similar to how ATL now has the international entrance. DEN could do the same but not make it domestic/international but say United/Southwest. Train situation solved.


No. Take a look at the diagrams I posted that are from the master plan. The airport was always designed with the intent of concourse expansion to the north, terminal expansion to the south. They've deviated from that somewhat by considering the east/west concourses in place of, or in addition to, Concourses D and E, but otherwise the design is still the same. Both potential expansion plans still call for a terminal expansion to the south of the existing terminal (likely over the current RTD rail platforms.)

Keep in mind that DEN is so much bigger and more spread out than ATL is. The distance between Concourses T and F at ATL is about the same distance as the south end of the DEN terminal and Concourse C. Building D and E at DEN and a terminal to the north would mean that DEN would have two terminals almost five miles apart! Not to mention that there's absolutely nothing north of the airport. All the other infrastructure (car rental, hotels, train) at DEN is to the south on the Pena Blvd corridor.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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77H
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:55 am

DEN1895 wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Because EGE is 2.5 hours from Denver on it’s best day and isolated completely from Denver on its worst? EGE is not close to anything except the ski areas so if you are going skiing then yeah go to EGE.

Also you can’t connect to anywhere out of EGE so there is that too.
ok edited earlier post.

DEN just seems so badly designed with rental cars miles away. Surely the train could have been extended to cars ?

You can often get AA/QF frequent flyer seats LAX/JFK via EGE at busy times of year, when no nonstop ff seats available.

For most of northern winter, you can fly LAX/EGE with 60 to 90 mins at EGE before flying EGE/JFK. Not same aircraft though. A319 LAX/EGE & B757 EGE/JFK.


It is true that the bigger an airport gets the less consumer friendly it becomes, but there is no good way to solve that issue. At least at DEN everything is connected on the air side compared to SFO, JFK, or LAX.

In regards to the rental car facilities, there have been plans to build a second train to cover the landside facilities or a CONRAC but the airport is hesitant to spend that much money as rental cars are becoming less popular with Uber and Lyft becoming more popular. With the first phase of the Pena rebuild the buses will have some dedicated lanes which should help some.


Using Uber/Lyft from DEN into the city can easily exceed the cost of a rental car for a day. Unless you only plan to use ridesharing to/from DEN only and not once in town the price likely favors renting.

It’s interesting that CONRACs have only started gaining traction in the last decade or so. They seem like no-brainers although some are so far from terminal complexes that they aren’t much of an added convenience.

77H
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:29 pm

DEN is always going to have a lot of demand for rental cars in the near/medium term because of how vast a region in the Front Range the airport serves and the nature of skier and tourist traffic headed into the mountains that need a rental car to access ski areas, trailheads, the national parks/forests, and drive between mountain towns/resorts. Rideshare isn't viable for these types of passengers.

Actually, I find the rental car situation at DEN to be fairly decent for a large airport. The major companies have timely and frequent shuttles. The facilities are not out of the way, since you have to effectively drive right by them going to/from the terminal. Easy access off Pena Blvd. A CONRAC for DEN would likely have to be so massive and run so many shuttles, it may not be any more convenient than the current set-up with dedicated facilities for each rental company.
If anything, they could use another gas station near the rental car returns as the only station out there at Pena & Gun Club is mass chaos.
CONRACS like BWI and PHX are a pain and are inconveniently located.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:41 pm

DEN can keep growing until they have to change the ATCT call sign to Goodland Tower.
 
Jonboi252009
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:52 am

BNAMealer wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
I suspect that concourse D will eventually be built, if domestic and international air traffic continue to grow as it has in the DEN area. United is planning to grow by 10% (50+ new daily flights) for S20, as one poster has already said. Many of these are RJs to places like Riverton and Sheridan, Wyoming. UAs been aggressively bidding for EAS markets out of DEN and surprisingly being awarded some at higher costs than the incumbent operators. But hey, it is jet service and not props so they are getting the routes.

I believe pax walk tunnels between concourses were part of the original design, much like Hartsfield, but were eliminated when construction costs began to skyrocket. If concourse D is finalized, it really should have a pax tunnel from C. The trains now can be very crowded at peak arrival and departure times. I have been left waiting at the door several times because the train car was packed tight.

I have heard projections that DEN will likely reach 75 million passengers by 2023 if the pattern of growth continues as it has.

Frontier 14


Unless a severe recession happens, I agree. I could easily see DEN overtaking DFW as the fourth busiest in the US with the next 2-3 years.



For the foreseeable future that’s doubtful. DFW is expected to serve 73 million passengers this year. Around 2024-2025 they are expected to hit 85 million and around 2030 they are expecting to be right around 100 million passengers.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:36 pm

I wonder if a possible solution to the train issue could be to put above ground trains between the concourses that would be high enough for any aircraft to pass under, say 100ft high? That could be a cheaper alternative than building new underground tunnels, have the beams go through the existing concourses somehow and use arches for support since it wouldn't be possible to build legs through the middle of the ramp area.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:03 pm

Jonboi252009 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
I suspect that concourse D will eventually be built, if domestic and international air traffic continue to grow as it has in the DEN area. United is planning to grow by 10% (50+ new daily flights) for S20, as one poster has already said. Many of these are RJs to places like Riverton and Sheridan, Wyoming. UAs been aggressively bidding for EAS markets out of DEN and surprisingly being awarded some at higher costs than the incumbent operators. But hey, it is jet service and not props so they are getting the routes.

I believe pax walk tunnels between concourses were part of the original design, much like Hartsfield, but were eliminated when construction costs began to skyrocket. If concourse D is finalized, it really should have a pax tunnel from C. The trains now can be very crowded at peak arrival and departure times. I have been left waiting at the door several times because the train car was packed tight.

I have heard projections that DEN will likely reach 75 million passengers by 2023 if the pattern of growth continues as it has.

Frontier 14


Unless a severe recession happens, I agree. I could easily see DEN overtaking DFW as the fourth busiest in the US with the next 2-3 years.



For the foreseeable future that’s doubtful. DFW is expected to serve 73 million passengers this year. Around 2024-2025 they are expected to hit 85 million and around 2030 they are expecting to be right around 100 million passengers.


The difference is DEN has two major carriers hubbed at it whereas DFW only has one. WN adding 100 flights on 737’s and UA growing to 600+ flights is going to have a bigger impact than AA adding more RJ flights at DFW. Also, until Terminal F is built at DFW, AA can pretty much only upgauge.
 
bob75013
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Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:57 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Jonboi252009 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

Unless a severe recession happens, I agree. I could easily see DEN overtaking DFW as the fourth busiest in the US with the next 2-3 years.



For the foreseeable future that’s doubtful. DFW is expected to serve 73 million passengers this year. Around 2024-2025 they are expected to hit 85 million and around 2030 they are expecting to be right around 100 million passengers.


The difference is DEN has two major carriers hubbed at it whereas DFW only has one. WN adding 100 flights on 737’s and UA growing to 600+ flights is going to have a bigger impact than AA adding more RJ flights at DFW. Also, until Terminal F is built at DFW, AA can pretty much only upgauge.


DFW terminl F is supposed to be done by 2025, so 85 million pax by then is certainly possible.
 
blockski
Posts: 598
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:34 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I wonder if a possible solution to the train issue could be to put above ground trains between the concourses that would be high enough for any aircraft to pass under, say 100ft high? That could be a cheaper alternative than building new underground tunnels, have the beams go through the existing concourses somehow and use arches for support since it wouldn't be possible to build legs through the middle of the ramp area.


Presuming you can build the structure, you'd need some very long spans to avoid impacting taxiways. As noted, DEN's layout includes some big pushback areas and taxiways between the concourses. Either you drop support pillars in there, or you have very long spans requiring lots of structure. PHX has their train over an existing taxiway, but the span is only about 350 feet (and they have other cross-field taxiways that aren't potentially obstructed). The new SEA arrival facility bridge's clear span over the (single) taxiway is more like 500 feet.

The distance from A to B at DEN is closer to 1,500 feet.

Then there's passengers - you need to have the proper vertical circulation to get them from an elevated station to the concourse, and you'd need to retrofit that into the existing structure. That's a big cost increase.
 
ricq
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:25 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:35 pm

Well, the Golden Gate is a span of 4200 feet (1300m). Just build a suspension bridge. Haha.
 
87GROUNDED
Posts: 74
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:50 pm

As a frequent/weekly flyer out of DIA I have my own opinions of the airport and I use all three concourses depending on my destination and time of departure and arrival.

1. The trains: They suck. Peak hours are awful. All it takes is one unfamiliar person to try and squeeze in just as the doors are closing and the entire train has to reset and wait for 20 seconds before it can depart. Adding another car to each train would help, as will increasing the frequency of trains.

2. The A Security: TSA needs to staff it 0400-0100. Especially for the red-eye flights. Open two TSA Pre-Check lines from 0600 to 2300. Ask the airlines that utilize A Concourse to steer their passengers to the A security checkpoint.

3. Lack of another E-W runway. This should occur in the next 5-7 years. Put it south of Pena Blvd and build extending taxiways over Pena and the train line.

4. The Concourses: They are dark, outdated, and need serious upgrades. Enlarge the restrooms, offer better dining and shopping options, add skylights or new windows to give it a more open and welcoming environment.

5. The Great Hall: What a disappointing fiasco. That's all I will say about that.

6: Fire Kim Day. She's done an awful job these past 5 years. She has her own little kingdom set up with yes men and women in key roles. The City Council is afraid of her and doesn't have the stomach to deal with her and her messes. She needs to be shown the door- quickly.

7. Pena Blvd: What a mess. It needs to be expanded to 3 lanes from I-70 through E-470 and then 4-5 lanes from E-470 to the terminal.

8. Fire Kim Day. Did I mention that already?

OH. AND FIX THE DAMN ESCALATORS AND MOVING WALKWAYS!!! They're always broken and down for maintenance.
On your deathbed you'll receive total consiousness- so I've got that going for me.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1582
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:36 am

87GROUNDED wrote:
As a frequent/weekly flyer out of DIA I have my own opinions of the airport and I use all three concourses depending on my destination and time of departure and arrival.

1. The trains: They suck. Peak hours are awful. All it takes is one unfamiliar person to try and squeeze in just as the doors are closing and the entire train has to reset and wait for 20 seconds before it can depart. Adding another car to each train would help, as will increasing the frequency of trains.

2. The A Security: TSA needs to staff it 0400-0100. Especially for the red-eye flights. Open two TSA Pre-Check lines from 0600 to 2300. Ask the airlines that utilize A Concourse to steer their passengers to the A security checkpoint.

3. Lack of another E-W runway. This should occur in the next 5-7 years. Put it south of Pena Blvd and build extending taxiways over Pena and the train line.

4. The Concourses: They are dark, outdated, and need serious upgrades. Enlarge the restrooms, offer better dining and shopping options, add skylights or new windows to give it a more open and welcoming environment.

5. The Great Hall: What a disappointing fiasco. That's all I will say about that.

6: Fire Kim Day. She's done an awful job these past 5 years. She has her own little kingdom set up with yes men and women in key roles. The City Council is afraid of her and doesn't have the stomach to deal with her and her messes. She needs to be shown the door- quickly.

7. Pena Blvd: What a mess. It needs to be expanded to 3 lanes from I-70 through E-470 and then 4-5 lanes from E-470 to the terminal.

8. Fire Kim Day. Did I mention that already?

OH. AND FIX THE DAMN ESCALATORS AND MOVING WALKWAYS!!! They're always broken and down for maintenance.



Great write up. I cannot echo enough how poor the security situation is. The Food options and decor of the concourses might be the worst of any airport I can think of.
 
GmoneyCO
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:53 am

87GROUNDED wrote:
As a frequent/weekly flyer out of DIA I have my own opinions of the airport and I use all three concourses depending on my destination and time of departure and arrival.

1. The trains: They suck. Peak hours are awful. All it takes is one unfamiliar person to try and squeeze in just as the doors are closing and the entire train has to reset and wait for 20 seconds before it can depart. Adding another car to each train would help, as will increasing the frequency of trains.

2. The A Security: TSA needs to staff it 0400-0100. Especially for the red-eye flights. Open two TSA Pre-Check lines from 0600 to 2300. Ask the airlines that utilize A Concourse to steer their passengers to the A security checkpoint.

3. Lack of another E-W runway. This should occur in the next 5-7 years. Put it south of Pena Blvd and build extending taxiways over Pena and the train line.

4. The Concourses: They are dark, outdated, and need serious upgrades. Enlarge the restrooms, offer better dining and shopping options, add skylights or new windows to give it a more open and welcoming environment.

5. The Great Hall: What a disappointing fiasco. That's all I will say about that.

6: Fire Kim Day. She's done an awful job these past 5 years. She has her own little kingdom set up with yes men and women in key roles. The City Council is afraid of her and doesn't have the stomach to deal with her and her messes. She needs to be shown the door- quickly.

7. Pena Blvd: What a mess. It needs to be expanded to 3 lanes from I-70 through E-470 and then 4-5 lanes from E-470 to the terminal.

8. Fire Kim Day. Did I mention that already?

OH. AND FIX THE DAMN ESCALATORS AND MOVING WALKWAYS!!! They're always broken and down for maintenance.


As a Denver based frequently flyer I agree with everything here, however I would add a #9

9. Correct the Uber drop off and pick up situation. The previous setup (pick up and drop off on level 6) is far better than this level 5 non-sense with drivers waiting 20+ minutes to make to the pick up or drop off point during peak hours
 
DEN1895
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:06 am

GmoneyCO wrote:
87GROUNDED wrote:
As a frequent/weekly flyer out of DIA I have my own opinions of the airport and I use all three concourses depending on my destination and time of departure and arrival.

1. The trains: They suck. Peak hours are awful. All it takes is one unfamiliar person to try and squeeze in just as the doors are closing and the entire train has to reset and wait for 20 seconds before it can depart. Adding another car to each train would help, as will increasing the frequency of trains.

2. The A Security: TSA needs to staff it 0400-0100. Especially for the red-eye flights. Open two TSA Pre-Check lines from 0600 to 2300. Ask the airlines that utilize A Concourse to steer their passengers to the A security checkpoint.

3. Lack of another E-W runway. This should occur in the next 5-7 years. Put it south of Pena Blvd and build extending taxiways over Pena and the train line.

4. The Concourses: They are dark, outdated, and need serious upgrades. Enlarge the restrooms, offer better dining and shopping options, add skylights or new windows to give it a more open and welcoming environment.

5. The Great Hall: What a disappointing fiasco. That's all I will say about that.

6: Fire Kim Day. She's done an awful job these past 5 years. She has her own little kingdom set up with yes men and women in key roles. The City Council is afraid of her and doesn't have the stomach to deal with her and her messes. She needs to be shown the door- quickly.

7. Pena Blvd: What a mess. It needs to be expanded to 3 lanes from I-70 through E-470 and then 4-5 lanes from E-470 to the terminal.

8. Fire Kim Day. Did I mention that already?

OH. AND FIX THE DAMN ESCALATORS AND MOVING WALKWAYS!!! They're always broken and down for maintenance.


As a Denver based frequently flyer I agree with everything here, however I would add a #9

9. Correct the Uber drop off and pick up situation. The previous setup (pick up and drop off on level 6) is far better than this level 5 non-sense with drivers waiting 20+ minutes to make to the pick up or drop off point during peak hours


1. The airport is receiving more train cars next year to increase the frequency of the trains, this should help with the capacity.

2. Good luck with getting TSA to increase staffing, they struggle to maintain the staffing they have now with unemployment so low. During busy periods such as the holidays and the summer they are already bringing in screeners from other airports such as COS to supplement staffing.

3. Currently a work in progress in the planning phases for the 7th runway, unsure of which one will be next at this time, should be built in the next 5-7 years.

4.Part of the funding approved with the Great Hall and concourse expansions was money to remodel all concourse restrooms, currently in the design phase with construction starting soon. The concessions are about 2 years into a 5 year plan to update the concourses, currently about 15 new concessions are under review or construction currently, in order to minimize the amount of places closed, this has to be a long project.

5. Great Hall is a mess, but hopefully will get moving again soon. While the construction will be 4 years, we should hopefully be complete with the first phase sometime this summer, after this phase the next two phases should have less of an impact as it won't be construction on the center of the terminal.

6. The Great Hall has been a mess, but it was going to be a mess either way, if the company wasn't fired people would be mad the cost increased 40%. The two biggest faults that I see in the last 5 years are the construction of the hotel as it limits future growth of the terminal and that the concourse expansions did not happen sooner. But also in the past 5 years the airport has gone from 52 to 64 million passengers a year, growing international traffic 50%, the airport is the fastest growing Hub for both UA and WN. the airport has kept CPE low compared to other airports and frequently ranks high among survey from passengers. The airport is not perfect by any means but it is unique in regards to the fact that the entire airport was built at once meaning everything needs to be replaced around the same time, this process has started but it is very expensive and time consuming to complete as the airport keeps growing at a record pace.

7. Pena has become a mess to due to the development of the areas off Pena before E-470 there are plans to widen everything to 3 lanes but there is no funding secured yet, it will be challenging as the airport will need to work with other cities and the Federal Highway Administration to complete the project.

8.5 Similar to the restrooms the conveyances received funding to be rebuilt or replaced, the first phase has begun with elevators being replaced on A concourse, but similar to the concessions it was estimated to be a 5 year project.

9. While never officially announced, ride share was moved to level 5 due to the Great Hall construction, In Sep/Oct they were planning on closing large portions of level 6 for cranes and would have resulted in less space for traffic. The airlines also hated the ride share being on level 6 and pressured the airport to move them elsewhere. They didn't just move them for the fun of it, a new lot is being built closer to the terminal however as they currently have to wait in the Mt Elbert lot which is a 15-20 min drive from the terminal.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:39 am

The focus from the beginning should have been on expanding/renovating the concourses and improving passenger flow both through the airport and in/out of it. The Great Hall project was/is unnecessary, no one spends much time in there anyway.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3983
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:45 am

BNAMealer wrote:
The focus from the beginning should have been on expanding/renovating the concourses and improving passenger flow both through the airport and in/out of it. The Great Hall project was/is unnecessary, no one spends much time in there anyway.


Absolutely. DIA management seems very out of touch on what needs to be done.

I would say concourse connectivity (train), concourse refreshes, additional east/west runway, and a major expansion of Pena should be the priorities in that order. As someone who spends 1/3rd of my life at DIA, it feels as if they are intentionally trying to make the airport as inconvenient as possible for customers and employees alike.

Don't get me started on the crappy employee bus service. If they are de-icing it literally takes 25-30 minutes to get to B concourse. You have to arrive at work parking lot almost 45 minutes before work just to have a chance of being on time.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
alo2yyz
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:53 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:45 am

87GROUNDED wrote:
As a frequent/weekly flyer out of DIA I have my own opinions of the airport and I use all three concourses depending on my destination and time of departure and arrival.

1. The trains: They suck. Peak hours are awful. All it takes is one unfamiliar person to try and squeeze in just as the doors are closing and the entire train has to reset and wait for 20 seconds before it can depart. Adding another car to each train would help, as will increasing the frequency of trains.

2. The A Security: TSA needs to staff it 0400-0100. Especially for the red-eye flights. Open two TSA Pre-Check lines from 0600 to 2300. Ask the airlines that utilize A Concourse to steer their passengers to the A security checkpoint.

3. Lack of another E-W runway. This should occur in the next 5-7 years. Put it south of Pena Blvd and build extending taxiways over Pena and the train line.

4. The Concourses: They are dark, outdated, and need serious upgrades. Enlarge the restrooms, offer better dining and shopping options, add skylights or new windows to give it a more open and welcoming environment.

5. The Great Hall: What a disappointing fiasco. That's all I will say about that.

6: Fire Kim Day. She's done an awful job these past 5 years. She has her own little kingdom set up with yes men and women in key roles. The City Council is afraid of her and doesn't have the stomach to deal with her and her messes. She needs to be shown the door- quickly.

7. Pena Blvd: What a mess. It needs to be expanded to 3 lanes from I-70 through E-470 and then 4-5 lanes from E-470 to the terminal.

8. Fire Kim Day. Did I mention that already?

OH. AND FIX THE DAMN ESCALATORS AND MOVING WALKWAYS!!! They're always broken and down for maintenance.


#4 is spot-on. The food at DEN is atrocious and pickings are slim.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:55 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
The focus from the beginning should have been on expanding/renovating the concourses and improving passenger flow both through the airport and in/out of it. The Great Hall project was/is unnecessary, no one spends much time in there anyway.


Absolutely. DIA management seems very out of touch on what needs to be done.

I would say concourse connectivity (train), concourse refreshes, additional east/west runway, and a major expansion of Pena should be the priorities in that order. As someone who spends 1/3rd of my life at DIA, it feels as if they are intentionally trying to make the airport as inconvenient as possible for customers and employees alike.

Don't get me started on the crappy employee bus service. If they are de-icing it literally takes 25-30 minutes to get to B concourse. You have to arrive at work parking lot almost 45 minutes before work just to have a chance of being on time.


I can’t believe Ms. Day still has a job after these major fiascos. DEN is a critical air hub, it cannot afford to be handling things like this. It is pretty clear they don’t have their priorities straight. BNA fired their CEO a few years ago over lesser issues.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:35 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
The focus from the beginning should have been on expanding/renovating the concourses and improving passenger flow both through the airport and in/out of it. The Great Hall project was/is unnecessary, no one spends much time in there anyway.


Absolutely. DIA management seems very out of touch on what needs to be done.

I would say concourse connectivity (train), concourse refreshes, additional east/west runway, and a major expansion of Pena should be the priorities in that order. As someone who spends 1/3rd of my life at DIA, it feels as if they are intentionally trying to make the airport as inconvenient as possible for customers and employees alike.

Don't get me started on the crappy employee bus service. If they are de-icing it literally takes 25-30 minutes to get to B concourse. You have to arrive at work parking lot almost 45 minutes before work just to have a chance of being on time.


Every issue on the list is being worked on in one form or another, the airport already has 6+ billion dollars and debt and can't fix every single issue at the same time, the runaway is also dependent on the FAA as they help fund runway construction with grants. Pena has received push back from City Council as they have made it a city wide goal to not add additional lanes to roads without a way to increase transit usage. As someone who works with many of the department directors and senior managers at the airport they are very aware of the issues, but there is only so much funding to go around.

In regards to the bus during deice the only other option would be to drop off at the Main Terminal, there just isn't a great way to get the buses on the West side with the aircraft queues and the 80+ deice trucks crossing to and from the deice pads.
 
DenverBrian
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:32 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:55 am

Looking at the "alternative" plan for a Concourse D/E to the east and west of the main terminal...where does all the parking go?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4053
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:04 am

JBo wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
DEN also has the advantage of being very well geographically situated for domestic connections from East-West...


It's not superior to ORD in that regard. The area surrounding DEN (whether you want to go with 60/90/120 minute flight times) is less dense than ORD. The fairly even split of CHI traffic between UA/AA/WN does limit UA's hubbing opportunities, however, in spite of the much larger CSA.


DEN is far more centrally located than ORD for East-West connections.

Denver can either generate it's own feed for UA or has SFO-LAX-PDX- SEA and HNL to provide feed and through passengers as less expensive fares will be available via connecting fares Through DEN.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:42 am

A good addition to the train would be to do a gondola like Whistler's Peak 2 Peak. It is 4,200 person capacity with a lot of space between cars. This one has a huge span over the valley, a normal gondola spacing and 16 pax vs 10 so a 10K capacity. At DEN, the towers only need to clear the taxiway, not the full width between concourses. It would look good with the main terminal tent roof, advertise skiing and the outdoors, and be the greatest thing for spotters. Imagine watching the airport from 12 stories up. At the 4,200 pax, that is 21 NB's per hour at 10 . 64M pax / year is 175K/day or 11K per hour. A 10K/hr gondola and the existing train would add a lot of capacity at probably the lowest cost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKBzXZ6D-nk
 
tphuang
Posts: 3504
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:43 am

Interesting news of WN looking to get 16 more gates at DEN. Let's say they even get 14, which will take them to 37 gates, that would allow them to grow to a peak of 350 flights a day based on their aggressive gate usage level. That would easily be the largest in their system. Is DEN large enough of market to support this much growth from UA, WN and F9? Will F9 lose out if the other 2 get that large?
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:02 pm

tphuang wrote:
Interesting news of WN looking to get 16 more gates at DEN. Let's say they even get 14, which will take them to 37 gates, that would allow them to grow to a peak of 350 flights a day based on their aggressive gate usage level. That would easily be the largest in their system. Is DEN large enough of market to support this much growth from UA, WN and F9? Will F9 lose out if the other 2 get that large?


I think F9 will be the odd man out here. They simply don’t have the frequency and gates to compete.

Given DEN’s unique position as both a fast growing market as well as its geographic position, yes, I’ll say both UA and WN will thrive.
 
Worldair1
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:57 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:29 pm

In terms of sheer land mass, is there any other hub airports in the US besides DEN & IAD that have massive amounts of acres to grow?
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:42 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
A good addition to the train would be to do a gondola like Whistler's Peak 2 Peak. It is 4,200 person capacity with a lot of space between cars. This one has a huge span over the valley, a normal gondola spacing and 16 pax vs 10 so a 10K capacity. At DEN, the towers only need to clear the taxiway, not the full width between concourses. It would look good with the main terminal tent roof, advertise skiing and the outdoors, and be the greatest thing for spotters. Imagine watching the airport from 12 stories up. At the 4,200 pax, that is 21 NB's per hour at 10 . 64M pax / year is 175K/day or 11K per hour. A 10K/hr gondola and the existing train would add a lot of capacity at probably the lowest cost.
p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKBzXZ6D-nk


I do appreciate the out of the box thinking here, but would FAA (or other similar) allow overhead operations and structure of a gondola, even if just taxiway? I know nothing of this, other than assuming there's an institutional reluctance to put aerial obstruction anywhere nearby, especially things in motion?

But the idea of promoting local skiing is pretty awesome!
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:37 pm

Looks like WN plans to add at least 1,013 jobs with a median salary of $128,115 over the next 8 years to qualify for these incentives. Beat out HOU and BNA.

And this article says the expansion gates will be assigned in the next 6 months.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/22/s ... l-airport/
Last edited by ericm2031 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2485
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:37 pm

How hard would it be to connect the terminals via underground walkway (think ATL)? Seems that half the traffic with the trains could be alleviated if they just had a long underground tunnel to give folks the option to walk between terminals instead of being forced to train it with 300 of their best friends.
 
codc10
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:57 pm

An underground walkway sounds good in theory, but the trains don't break nearly enough to outweigh the cost of boring a new tunnel, and I don't think people really comprehend just how far apart the concourses are at DEN. The additional cars, shorter headways and better access to platforms, after construction is finished, will go a long way to alleviating train crowding.

Using ATL as an example isn't really fair to DEN, in this respect. For instance, the walk between the security checkpoint and the C concourse would be around 4900' (.93 of a mile, roughly 1.5km), not counting vertical movement up and down escalators/elevators. That's roughly the distance between T and E at ATL, and nobody I know does that entire walk, unless they have a lot of time to kill. Even the terminal to B would be about 3200 feet, more than T to C at ATL. The only realistic secure-side transfers would be between B and A for United, and this distance is about the equivalent of walking from T to B at ATL. None of this, of course, takes into account the walks along the concourses, as the shortest DEN concourse (A) is about the same as the longest ATL concourse, around 2300'.

Not to mention the fact that DEN sits at higher elevation, which makes long-distance walks difficult for a considerable population of travelers. IMO, a walkway isn't a reasonable solution in terms of cost vs. benefit.
 
User avatar
Schweigend
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:45 am

I was living in Denver from the early '80s through the mid-'90s -- during the conception and execution of DIA. I won't delve into the political fights, airline battles, and cost overruns that ensued.

However, I always thought that there should have been multiple train platforms in the underground station at the main terminal -- with a different track leading to each Concourse.

I mean DIA should have been built with room for a large station underneath Jeppesen, having separate platforms leading to each of the three (potentially four) concourses.

So you have to go to B? -- Then go to the B platform, and you'll be on a train with pax bound only for there.

Wanna go to C? All you have to do is get on the C train.

The way it is now, everyone is on the same solitary packed rail line, stopping at each of the concourses, like a "local" line instead of an "express". Unpleasant.

Just as with the lack of a tunnel allowing for people to walk between the concourses if the need should arise, there seems at present to be no way to have multiple train tracks separately reaching each terminal.

I suppose they could accomplish this using the existing infrastructure by having many more railcars than now, with different ones earmarked for each unique terminal, but that would add to delays and crowding, I think.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:35 am

Well, I'm NOT a frequent flyer through DEN, but I was there just a couple of weeks ago. All of the aforementioned points are valid and must be hashed out by the powers that be. (And, if YOUR powers that be are like MY powers that be, then good luck!) The main thing that I saw that needs some civilizing is the TSA checkpoints. Down in that pit, the crowds lined up and making loop-de-loops through the rope lines reminded me of a refugee camp! I'd throw the TSA Pre-Check line in that mix, too. Once people pass through that experience, it's no wonder that people get on the trains in a foul mood. I don't know what the solution is, but there's got to be a better way!
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
blockski
Posts: 598
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Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:30 pm

Schweigend wrote:
I was living in Denver from the early '80s through the mid-'90s -- during the conception and execution of DIA. I won't delve into the political fights, airline battles, and cost overruns that ensued.

However, I always thought that there should have been multiple train platforms in the underground station at the main terminal -- with a different track leading to each Concourse.

I mean DIA should have been built with room for a large station underneath Jeppesen, having separate platforms leading to each of the three (potentially four) concourses.

So you have to go to B? -- Then go to the B platform, and you'll be on a train with pax bound only for there.

Wanna go to C? All you have to do is get on the C train.

The way it is now, everyone is on the same solitary packed rail line, stopping at each of the concourses, like a "local" line instead of an "express". Unpleasant.

Just as with the lack of a tunnel allowing for people to walk between the concourses if the need should arise, there seems at present to be no way to have multiple train tracks separately reaching each terminal.

I suppose they could accomplish this using the existing infrastructure by having many more railcars than now, with different ones earmarked for each unique terminal, but that would add to delays and crowding, I think.


There’s a reason they didn’t design the system like this; it’s very inefficient and totally forecloses on the possibility of travel between the concourses. You’d have to build more infrastructure (three separate track systems: T to A, T to B, and T to C), and if you wanted to go from A to B, you’d need to travel to the terminal and switch.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:26 pm

blockski wrote:
Schweigend wrote:
I was living in Denver from the early '80s through the mid-'90s -- during the conception and execution of DIA. I won't delve into the political fights, airline battles, and cost overruns that ensued.

However, I always thought that there should have been multiple train platforms in the underground station at the main terminal -- with a different track leading to each Concourse.

I mean DIA should have been built with room for a large station underneath Jeppesen, having separate platforms leading to each of the three (potentially four) concourses.

So you have to go to B? -- Then go to the B platform, and you'll be on a train with pax bound only for there.

Wanna go to C? All you have to do is get on the C train.

The way it is now, everyone is on the same solitary packed rail line, stopping at each of the concourses, like a "local" line instead of an "express". Unpleasant.

Just as with the lack of a tunnel allowing for people to walk between the concourses if the need should arise, there seems at present to be no way to have multiple train tracks separately reaching each terminal.

I suppose they could accomplish this using the existing infrastructure by having many more railcars than now, with different ones earmarked for each unique terminal, but that would add to delays and crowding, I think.


There’s a reason they didn’t design the system like this; it’s very inefficient and totally forecloses on the possibility of travel between the concourses. You’d have to build more infrastructure (three separate track systems: T to A, T to B, and T to C), and if you wanted to go from A to B, you’d need to travel to the terminal and switch.




Whichi is actually what the airport wants............go shopping in the main termianl during your layover. Which has to be the most stupidest idea someone could have come up with. Goes to show you how out of touch Day's team really is.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:29 pm

I never really cared about how lavish a concourse is. I'm not there to be entertained or pay airport markups to dine or shop. I'm there just long enough to get on my flight.
 
EIEIDW
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:15 pm

How there are now Denver - Dublin flights is beyond me. Real opportunity for delta to open up this route. What do you think?
 
DenverTed
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:23 pm

Are they going to build a train from one end of B to the other end? It's a long way.
 
mga707
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:28 pm

Worldair1 wrote:
In terms of sheer land mass, is there any other hub airports in the US besides DEN & IAD that have massive amounts of acres to grow?


DFW and IAH.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3552
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: DEN- How much can it grow?

Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:32 pm

EIEIDW wrote:
How there are now Denver - Dublin flights is beyond me. Real opportunity for delta to open up this route. What do you think?

Why would Delta be the one to fly it? That seems left field. They only fly JFK, BOS and ATL. Not even nearly all their own hubs much less some random P2P routes.

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