Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
chiad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:03 pm

morrisond wrote:
T4thH wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
This flynas order was previously announced as a MOU during the Paris Air Show.

Good to see, that the MOU are firmed.

Interesting to see, Airbus has till now only collected firm orders and one MOU (for the 8x A220-300).

Regular MOU and LOI are seen and only few firm orders on Airshows, so the Airbus sales teams have done an excellent and fast job in the weeks before this Airshow.



Other than Counting twice on double announcements. So the Flynas and EK orders were LOI's or MOU's before but counted in the Air show sales totals - now they are firmed and get counted again?

Neither the Flynas or EK order should be counted as a sale at this show as they were already counted before - in fact they should be recording a reduction of 20 frames for EK in Air show math at this show.


None of these has been announced as firm before and neither has been added to the orderbook.
Check out the Airbus ordershett for June
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... -2019.xlsx
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19126
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:03 pm

morrisond wrote:
However the common refrain from most after an airshow is that MOU's and LOI's will be firmed so they should be counted. This one airshow is highly unusual that most of the Airbus orders are firm but a lot were previously announced as MOI's or LOI's.

The standard of what counts seems to depend purely on the results of that airshow and who is counting.


The only ‘counting’ that matters is what the OEMs actually add to their order book. The rest is just fluff. Other than the OEMs, it doesn’t matter who counts what.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:08 pm

Announcing deals twice has pretty much become the standard in this business. But at the end of the day if you really only care about actual firm orders you should only look at the monthly order and delivery updates. Those are the actual firm orders regardless of many times they have been announced by A or B, the lessor, the airline, or via some article on the internet.
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:15 pm

Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:20 pm

morrisond wrote:
T4thH wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I totally understand that. However the common refrain from most after an airshow is that MOU's and LOI's will be firmed so they should be counted. This one airshow is highly unusual that most of the Airbus orders are firm but a lot were previously announced as MOI's or LOI's.

The standard of what counts seems to depend purely on the results of that airshow and who is counting.


Sorry, of course not. In best case 50% of the LOI and MOU, announced on an Airshow will be firmed. Please note, at end of an Airshow, everyone starts to count, to see the success of an Airshow. But of course, if you want to see the "real" success of an Airshow, you would have to wait for one or more decades and than you will be able to verify, how many jets have been delivered to the customers, of them, which have been announced as LOI or MOU or firm.

But who cares the success-rate of an Airshow ten years ago?

So, the LOI, MOU and Firm are counted and than everyone is aware, how successful it seems to have been (on last day of the show).
 
User avatar
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:26 pm

3 additional MRTT for Abu Dhabi:

"Abu Dhabi has also announced its intention to order three more Airbus Defence & Space A330 multi-role tanker transports (MRTT)."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rs-462398/
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:26 pm

MrBren wrote:
Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


OK, I thought, it was already firmed prior the Airshow this month? Now I am a little bit surprised. OK, seems to have been part of the meetings in Dubai hotels in the weeks prior the airshow, when the real work of the sales-teams starts.

Edit: now I remember, it was leaked early. So now it is official firmed/confirmed.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:59 pm

Additional information regarding the A220 order by Air Senegal.

It was a swap of the former announced purchase rights for two A330 Neo.
The A330 Neo puchase rights have been converted to an LOI?/ or MOU? (as official announced) for the 8x A220-300.
Air Senegal reduces the A330neo, and opts for eight Airbus A220-300 (DAS 19) Air Senegal has signed a letter of intent for the acquisition of eight Airbus A220-300s, thus converting its rights of purchase on two A330neo. Apparatus estimated at 732 milli ...

https://twitter.com/News_aero/status/1196780027599183872
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10639
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:05 pm

To be honest both Airbus and Boeing have moved to announcing orders that at the air show they heavily imply are firm only for us to discover they weren’t quite firm when the order total for the month comes out and the supposedly “firm” order is missing.

Who cares what exactly they are announcing. You are only splitting hairs if you are trying to make it A v B.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1773
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:08 pm

I guess PR/Marketing exaggeration is a new concept to some.

Anyway, another good day for Airbus, didn't expect much coming out of this show.
@DadCelo
 
chiad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:27 pm

T4thH wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


OK, I thought, it was already firmed prior the Airshow this month? Now I am a little bit surprised. OK, seems to have been part of the meetings in Dubai hotels in the weeks prior the airshow, when the real work of the sales-teams starts.

Edit: now I remember, it was leaked early. So now it is official firmed/confirmed.


Hmmm ...
I wonder if this is a new order, or is it this one from November 8th?
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/reuters ... urces.html
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:29 pm

You see the similar complaints every other airshow, especially when it's not the favorite OEM that makes most "double announcements".

But I got to admit that in recent years the counting at airshows has become worse. This even to the point where orders are announced as firm at the show that are actually firmed up at a much later date. But as we are only bystanders we just have to accept that it happens like this, they are not going to change this for us.
 
LJ
Posts: 5337
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
I totally understand that. However the common refrain from most after an airshow is that MOU's and LOI's will be firmed so they should be counted. This one airshow is highly unusual that most of the Airbus orders are firm but a lot were previously announced as MOI's or LOI's.


Yet we now see that changes are being made after the MoU and LoI (50 A350s instead of the MoU of 350s + 330s)..

morrisond wrote:
The standard of what counts seems to depend purely on the results of that airshow and who is counting.


Hence why I think the flightglobal tracker is so good. You can decide for yourself what to think. However, these airshows are for PR purposes. Why spoil a good party by pointing to something everybody knows, but willingly ignores? As long as they clearly mention the status of the "orders", I'm fine with it.

Lewton wrote:
Easyjet is bracing itself for a market slowdown.
Furthermore, they can acquire cheap aircraft by buying failing carriers in the next years


Then again, new NEOs would mean it can meet its CO2 neutral goal much easier..... buying "old" aircraft is against that philosophy.
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:39 pm

chiad wrote:
T4thH wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


OK, I thought, it was already firmed prior the Airshow this month? Now I am a little bit surprised. OK, seems to have been part of the meetings in Dubai hotels in the weeks prior the airshow, when the real work of the sales-teams starts.

Edit: now I remember, it was leaked early. So now it is official firmed/confirmed.


Hmmm ...
I wonder if this is a new order, or is it this one from November 8th?
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/reuters ... urces.html


The unidentified order in October was for 13 A321 and 12 A330 which was linked in the press to GECAS. It could be that with the confirmation that it's GECAS who placed this order they firmed 7 more A321.

This is a situation where we just have to wait for the monthly order update to see what happened.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10639
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:44 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
chiad wrote:
T4thH wrote:

OK, I thought, it was already firmed prior the Airshow this month? Now I am a little bit surprised. OK, seems to have been part of the meetings in Dubai hotels in the weeks prior the airshow, when the real work of the sales-teams starts.

Edit: now I remember, it was leaked early. So now it is official firmed/confirmed.


Hmmm ...
I wonder if this is a new order, or is it this one from November 8th?
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/reuters ... urces.html


The unidentified order in October was for 13 A321 and 12 A330 which was linked in the press to GECAS. It could be that with the confirmation that it's GECAS who placed this order they firmed 7 more A321.

This is a situation where we just have to wait for the monthly order update to see what happened.


It’s the same order. If you read Airbus’s PR they mention it is 13 new XLRs and 7 converted from an existing GECAS Neo order.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4258
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:54 pm

Please keep the thread on topic. This thread isn't meant for a debate on MOU versus firm order. If you'd like to have that discussion, it can be had in a separate thread.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
User avatar
cv990Coronado
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:38 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:59 pm

T4thH wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


OK, I thought, it was already firmed prior the Airshow this month? Now I am a little bit surprised. OK, seems to have been part of the meetings in Dubai hotels in the weeks prior the airshow, when the real work of the sales-teams starts.

Edit: now I remember, it was leaked early. So now it is official firmed/confirmed.


Interestingly but, not surprisingly the A330's in GEGAS livery don't show the Rolls Royce logo on the engines :stirthepot: Great sale and congrats to Airbus and GEGAS.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
chiad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:00 pm

Polot wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
chiad wrote:

Hmmm ...
I wonder if this is a new order, or is it this one from November 8th?
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/reuters ... urces.html


The unidentified order in October was for 13 A321 and 12 A330 which was linked in the press to GECAS. It could be that with the confirmation that it's GECAS who placed this order they firmed 7 more A321.

This is a situation where we just have to wait for the monthly order update to see what happened.


It’s the same order. If you read Airbus’s PR they mention it is 13 new XLRs and 7 converted from an existing GECAS Neo order.


Thanks.
So that makes it ... 7 new orders for the XLR then?
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:01 pm

Polot wrote:
It’s the same order. If you read Airbus’s PR they mention it is 13 new XLRs and 7 converted from an existing GECAS Neo order.

That should be clear then.

About this order, I was hoping to see a RR press release for the engines GECAS will order for these A330s. But they haven't released one for now, not surprised about that at all.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:15 pm

chiad wrote:
Polot wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

The unidentified order in October was for 13 A321 and 12 A330 which was linked in the press to GECAS. It could be that with the confirmation that it's GECAS who placed this order they firmed 7 more A321.

This is a situation where we just have to wait for the monthly order update to see what happened.


It’s the same order. If you read Airbus’s PR they mention it is 13 new XLRs and 7 converted from an existing GECAS Neo order.


Thanks.
So that makes it ... 7 new orders for the XLR then?

No, a swap of 7 already ordered/prior firmed A320 Neo to 7 A321 Xlr..So just an upgrade of 7 A320 neo to A321 Xlr.

As this "order" by GECAS was already stated as "undisclosed" in the Oct-2019 order book, it is on someway no new order. It is just the official announcement of the prior "undisclosed",.

As during Paris Airshow, these order announcements are again to start to end in a pile of mess, at least no one knows any more who has ordered, what has been ordered and what is already old and only new announced/ stated prior as undisclosed and now clarified.
Last edited by T4thH on Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Lewton
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:15 pm

LJ wrote:
Lewton wrote:
Easyjet is bracing itself for a market slowdown.
Furthermore, they can acquire cheap aircraft by buying failing carriers in the next years


Then again, new NEOs would mean it can meet its CO2 neutral goal much easier..... buying "old" aircraft is against that philosophy.


Sure, but then they are not committing to buy aircraft that they are not sure they can fil with passengers.
Right now it makes sense for them to be prudent.
From Hamburg with love.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:50 pm

MrBren wrote:
Airbus press release for GECAS 12 A330NEOs and 20 A321XLRs firm order: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


I suppose General Electric must be fairly confident in the long term future of the A330neo for them to swallow this rather bitter lemon.

I wonder do they also know something that some of our resident sages don't. :idea:
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:51 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
About this order, I was hoping to see a RR press release for the engines GECAS will order for these A330s. But they haven't released one for now, not surprised about that at all.


RR will happily take GE's Benjamins without rubbing their nose in it.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1304
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Having RR engines in their portfolio allows them to have real-life data of market value and such, allowing them to better price their own pool of engines.
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10639
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:59 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Having RR engines in their portfolio allows them to have real-life data of market value and such, allowing them to better price their own pool of engines.
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer.

They don’t need to own the aircraft to have real life data. Airlines, suppliers, etc talk. Large leasing companies always have their ears on the ground.

I suspect GECAS already has a customer who wanted the plane.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:00 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
About this order, I was hoping to see a RR press release for the engines GECAS will order for these A330s. But they haven't released one for now, not surprised about that at all.


RR will happily take GE's Benjamins without rubbing their nose in it.


Please note, one subsidiary of GECAS is also leasing only the jet engines to all possible customers and since years they are already leasing engines of all producers (and not only GE). I was really surprised, when I have first read it.

Since few years GECAS has started to buy and lease jets with engines of other companies than GE, when no GE engine for this jet can be ordered. This is the case for the A350 and A330 Neo. This was different in former years, there they would have performed only lease back orders (without GE engines).
 
Breathe
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:52 pm

As a side note, GE is in the process of selling off large parts of its business. GE Capital (which GECAS is part of) has been greatly reduced in size over the last few years.

Rumours have been swirling in the press for a few months that GE is considering selling off the business.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1510
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:22 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s the same order. If you read Airbus’s PR they mention it is 13 new XLRs and 7 converted from an existing GECAS Neo order.

That should be clear then.

About this order, I was hoping to see a RR press release for the engines GECAS will order for these A330s. But they haven't released one for now, not surprised about that at all.

A good test of 'firmness' is whether an engine order for the air frame is announced.

EK A350 order is firmer than the GECAS order for the A330NEO which will be conditional on engine negotiations.

Majority of NB orders historically were turnkey, with air frame and engine order placed via the air frame OEM, so more difficult to assess. That's changed markedly in the last few years, as more airlines want to influence life time costs via firm 'cradle to grave' maintenance contracts direct with the engine OEM, or their preferred agents.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:25 am

First time schedules for press conferences on Wednesday are announced.
Airbus has til now one press conference at 11:00 am local time (most likely announcement of an order).
https://www.dubaiairshow.aero/press-conference-schedule
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:24 am

T4thH wrote:
First time schedules for press conferences on Wednesday are announced.
Airbus has til now one press conference at 11:00 am local time (most likely announcement of an order).
https://www.dubaiairshow.aero/press-conference-schedule


Oooh interesting.... what rumours are left to possibly announce???

I note EK has something the same time!
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27176
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:49 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
I note EK has something the same time!


Speculation is EK will announce the firming of their 787 MoU during that period.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:33 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crucially I also think that ends any possibility of seeing the 778X in EK livery now - they'll take a few as ULR options if they need the range to replace the 77Ls.

That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:29 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
First time schedules for press conferences on Wednesday are announced.
Airbus has til now one press conference at 11:00 am local time (most likely announcement of an order).
https://www.dubaiairshow.aero/press-conference-schedule


Oooh interesting.... what rumours are left to possibly announce???

I note EK has something the same time!


I was wondering if it might be air madagascar and googling found this. Alas I dont have CAPA so no idea what it means by "intends"

1 day ago · Air Austral confirmed (18-Nov-2019) Air Madagascar intends to acquire A220-300 aircraft. As previously reported by CAPA, Air Austral ordered
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13302
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:46 am

LAX772LR wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crucially I also think that ends any possibility of seeing the 778X in EK livery now - they'll take a few as ULR options if they need the range to replace the 77Ls.

That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.


Depends on how far they want to fly it with which configuration, the ULR has more fuel volume as well.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Depends on how far they want to fly it with which configuration, the ULR has more fuel volume as well.

Not really, in this case. DXB is remarkably central to major world markets.

Thus, even taking high temperatures into account, where are they going to fly from DXB, that a 280T A359 cannot operate specifically due to fuel volume....?

The only place that even remotely comes to mind would be eastbound MEX, but that's an issue of [email protected], which the -ULR (at same MTOW) doesn't solve in a practical manner.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13302
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Depends on how far they want to fly it with which configuration, the ULR has more fuel volume as well.

Not really, in this case. DXB is remarkably central to major world markets.

Thus, even taking high temperatures into account, where are they going to fly from DXB, that a 280T A359 cannot operate specifically due to fuel volume....?
.


Now that is a good question .... SCL/EZE/AKL/HNL perhaps might be just on the fringe where more fuel does help, but with less than 8k nm GC probably not.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:44 am

so nothing from Airbus, did that 11am PC even happen?
 
T4thH
Posts: 1055
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:07 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
so nothing from Airbus, did that 11am PC even happen?


Good question, I have not seen anything on Twitter. For short time there was a second Airbus PC in PC room 1 scheduled for 2 pm, but this has also disappeared. There was also a second Emirates PC in PC room 3 scheduled for 1 pm, it is also not any more on the list.

Today is regular the last day to do business, this evening is the party, the Thursday of the Airshow is than just an Airshow.
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crucially I also think that ends any possibility of seeing the 778X in EK livery now - they'll take a few as ULR options if they need the range to replace the 77Ls.

That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.


That's essentially what I was saying - the A359 is the ideal 77L/778X replacement and if they need even more range then they have the ULR option if they need it.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:45 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crucially I also think that ends any possibility of seeing the 778X in EK livery now - they'll take a few as ULR options if they need the range to replace the 77Ls.

That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.


That's essentially what I was saying - the A359 is the ideal 77L/778X replacement and if they need even more range then they have the ULR option if they need it.


And if they need more capacity between that and the 779, they can upsize to the A350-1000.
come visit the south pacific
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:52 am

Motorhussy wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.


That's essentially what I was saying - the A359 is the ideal 77L/778X replacement and if they need even more range then they have the ULR option if they need it.


And if they need more capacity between that and the 779, they can upsize to the A350-1000.


I think the big 789 order they just made makes this much more likely that some, perhaps many of the A359s will convert to A35Ks. I don't see them taking 778X now.

A388
779X
A35K
77W
A359
789

That's pretty impressive. Some extremely capable birds there. Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?

Next step from this is to get rid of the A388s and replace the 77Ws - come 2030 they'll be close to that. amazing when you think about it really. Also who knows what kind of PIPs we'll see from the 787, 77X and A350 platforms by 2030?

I also think adding 789s, 779X and possibly some A35Ks does make the fleet planning for an EY merger a little easier doesn't it? ;) Or does it?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:48 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:

That's essentially what I was saying - the A359 is the ideal 77L/778X replacement and if they need even more range then they have the ULR option if they need it.


And if they need more capacity between that and the 779, they can upsize to the A350-1000.


I think the big 789 order they just made makes this much more likely that some, perhaps many of the A359s will convert to A35Ks. I don't see them taking 778X now.

A388
779X
A35K
77W
A359
789

That's pretty impressive. Some extremely capable birds there. Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?

Next step from this is to get rid of the A388s and replace the 77Ws - come 2030 they'll be close to that. amazing when you think about it really. Also who knows what kind of PIPs we'll see from the 787, 77X and A350 platforms by 2030?

I also think adding 789s, 779X and possibly some A35Ks does make the fleet planning for an EY merger a little easier doesn't it? ;) Or does it?


They have stopped adding 777-300ER a while ago, but they are still adding A380 for a year. Those A380 will stay for 12 years, so the A380 will not disappear out of Emirates fleet before 2030+.

In regards to the list, there are no A350-1000 on order. And I do not believe in 787-10, as that frame would be about the same size as the A350-900 and when Emirates made the 787 MOU, there was some complaining about insufficient engine thrust for the 787-10.

So for me it looks like
A380
777-9
777-300ER
A350-900
787-9

Emirates was talking about replacing the 777-300ER 1 to 1 with 777-8/9. That could change now.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10639
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:53 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Crucially I also think that ends any possibility of seeing the 778X in EK livery now - they'll take a few as ULR options if they need the range to replace the 77Ls.

That doesn't make much sense.

Even if they gave up the 778 (which isn't a foregone conclusion at this point) there's essentially nil reason for them to take an A359ULR when all of their A359s will be 280T capable aircraft.


That's essentially what I was saying - the A359 is the ideal 77L/778X replacement and if they need even more range then they have the ULR option if they need it.

I doubt EK has much interest in the ULR. That plane is literally trading payload for more fuel. EK has yet to show any desire for an essentially all premium ULR layout, and would most likely “abuse” a regular A359 if they needed more range by blocking seats/cargo.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:24 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?
I have a feeling EK is just going to use the 787's for that. Send A350's and 777's in between flights if they need to also.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
DCA350
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:59 pm

No A350KULR unveiling that was rumored a few months back.. Guess QA pushing the decision back has delayed the launch.
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:11 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?
I have a feeling EK is just going to use the 787's for that. Send A350's and 777's in between flights if they need to also.


I think you're right - 789 easier to "abuse" short haul than a heavier A359 etc. If they were that bothered about the 789 efficiency on short haul routes they'd have ordered some 787-10s. Also think this spells the end realistically for the A339 in EK livery, cant see them taking any now.

I have to say though, a 789 will be a serious looker in that livery. Gorgeous.
Last edited by CHRISBA35X on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:12 pm

DCA350 wrote:
No A350KULR unveiling that was rumored a few months back.. Guess QA pushing the decision back has delayed the launch.


The 319t MTOW A350-1000 has plenty of range for nearly every route, but this sunrise project.
 
User avatar
AECM
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:21 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?
I have a feeling EK is just going to use the 787's for that. Send A350's and 777's in between flights if they need to also.


I think you're right - 789 easier to "abuse" short haul than a heavier A359 etc. If they were that bothered about the 789 efficiency on short haul routes they'd have ordered some 787-10s. Also think this spells the end realistically for the A339 in EK livery, cant see them taking any now.

I have to say though, a 789 will be a serious looker in that livery. Gorgeous.


I think that we can see both the B789 and A359 doing "Regional" flights with different cabin layouts.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:47 pm

CHRISBA35X wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
CHRISBA35X wrote:
Do you see a hole for a light weight regional five hour people mover though?
I have a feeling EK is just going to use the 787's for that. Send A350's and 777's in between flights if they need to also.


I think you're right - 789 easier to "abuse" short haul than a heavier A359 etc. If they were that bothered about the 789 efficiency on short haul routes they'd have ordered some 787-10s. Also think this spells the end realistically for the A339 in EK livery, cant see them taking any now.

I have to say though, a 789 will be a serious looker in that livery. Gorgeous.


There is even a special regional version of the A350-900 with a lower MTOW.
 
xwb565
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Airbus Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:10 pm

Tim Clark putting the fear into the OEMs specifically the one in Chicago...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/


“The question of the 777Xs will be determined by when they can deliver them to us. We have to keep our business going at a pace and if people fall by the wayside then we’ll have to plug the gaps. Does that mean the A350-1000 has to be looked at? Maybe it does.”

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos