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JohanTally
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:13 pm

Strato2 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

Where did you read that Emirates 787's will be 8-abreast?


Where did you read that seat width is the only metric for passenger experience?


Not the only one but the prime one. The only thing the 787 has over the A330neo is the lower cabin altitude.


I would say anyone who has been involved in a toxic fume event from a bleed air system would appreciate the system used by the 787 and the added humidity. Also anyone who has ever looked out an airplane window would probably prefer the 787 as compared to the A330 peephole that isn't even at eye level, the only knock could be electronic dimmer which I personally vastly prefer. Both great aircraft but the 787 is more revolutionary for passenger/crew health.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:37 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Far from closing the door on the -1000, the events of this week have thrown it wide open.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/

“The question of the 777Xs will be determined by when they can deliver them to us. We have to keep our business going at a pace and if people fall by the wayside then we’ll have to plug the gaps. Does that mean the A350-1000 has to be looked at? Maybe it does.”

So Emirates could fully return to the Airbus programme it very publically abandoned five years ago: “Now we’ve taken the decision to go for the A350-900, the A350-1000 automatically falls into the frame,” says Clark.

It's not the only open door:

Clark confirms that the A330neo remains a potential future candidate for Emirates: "We're taking the A350 but that doesn't mean we're knocking out the A330neo. So perhaps in 2023/24 it may enter the mix again, by which time Rolls will have matured the engine and hopefully it will be concern-free."

He adds: "That 20 [orders] are still out there. That could be [Boeing] 787s, could be A330neos, could be A350-1000s."

He's referring to the 20 orders not taken up from the 40 A350 + 30 A330neo =70 order becoming 50 A350s.

His comments suggest the 787 order is just a conversion of the 40 78X MOU to 30 789.

Of course we see the 777X reduction but he seems to not bring that up.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -d-462380/
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ikolkyo
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:39 pm

It’d be foolish to add another fleet type of just 20 aircraft.
 
mig17
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).

My guess is 126 777-9.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
VV
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:59 pm

seahawk wrote:
I would not consider any order from EK secure until STC is replaced.

But the trend shown by EK is worrisome for both manufacturers.

- a move to smaller planes but not in bigger numbers
...


Where has the airport congestion mantra gone?
 
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:00 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Here's another link announcing today's EK 789 order:

https://simpleflying.com/emirates-orders-boeing-787/

This order makes sense as a ULH and market development replacement for the 77L fleet, plus the 789's are better-sized for their regional hub feed routes.

Some interesting related comments from https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/

“When we signed for the 150 777Xs in November 2013, the idea was that the -300ERs would gradually disappear. At that point the A380 wasn’t under the sword of Damocles,” said Emirates Airline president Tim Clark earlier this week at the Dubai air show.

However, it then became apparent to the Emirates network and fleet-planning teams that the A380/777 fleet strategy could compromise the airline’s ability to maximise its global growth ambitions, says Clark.

“We thought there were some routes on the table which with those two big aircraft were looking unattractive commercially, but with a smaller widebody twin – ie A350 or 787, or both – would allow us to expand our business again. We see multiple new points coming into the network post 2023/24 where we will resurge our growth to take these on board.”

It seems EK was/is not aiming at a "regional widebody" as many sources suggested, rather a "small widebody" as you suggest is in the "market development" category.

Of course 50 A350 + 30 789 is a lot of "market development"! :biggrin:

VV wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I would not consider any order from EK secure until STC is replaced.

But the trend shown by EK is worrisome for both manufacturers.

- a move to smaller planes but not in bigger numbers
...

Where has the airport congestion mantra gone?

Airport congestion is solving itself by hub bypass, just as many of us have suggested for quite a while.

DXB is using smaller planes not in bigger numbers, other locations are using small wide bodies in bigger numbers for longer trips than they used to do.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
VV
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I would not consider any order from EK secure until STC is replaced.

But the trend shown by EK is worrisome for both manufacturers.

- a move to smaller planes but not in bigger numbers
...

Where has the airport congestion mantra gone?

Airport congestion is solving itself by hub bypass, just as many of us have suggested for quite a while.

DXB is using smaller planes not in bigger numbers, other locations are using small wide bodies in bigger numbers for longer trips than they used to do.



Uh? Doesn't Emirates need to go through Dubai? So now Dubai doesn't have capacity issue anymore?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:30 pm

VV wrote:
So now Dubai doesn't have capacity issue anymore?

DXB is saturated, but the Sheikhs don't have the funds to address that any time soon.

They chose to invest in DWC which was an all or nothing investment that is now in the nothing column.

EK will be using similar number of aircraft but overall lower pax per aircraft from 2023 onward.

This will help the terminal capacity issue but not the gate/runway issue at DXB.

Their own calculations and STC's quotes tell us that EK's path to growth lies through smaller aircraft where they can match supply and demand better than dropping an A380 or 777W everywhere they want to fly.

I predict a lot of their services to less major cities will lose A380/77W and receive A350/789 instead, and overall less service to many places with new destinations now able to support service due to the smaller and more efficient aircraft being available to EK.

And over the longer term these could become A321/follow-on or NMA destinations.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Scotron12
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
So now Dubai doesn't have capacity issue anymore?

DXB is saturated, but the Sheikhs don't have the funds to address that any time soon.

They chose to invest in DWC which was an all or nothing investment that is now in the nothing column.

EK will be using similar number of aircraft but overall lower pax per aircraft from 2023 onward.

This will help the terminal capacity issue but not the gate/runway issue at DXB.

Their own calculations and STC's quotes tell us that EK's path to growth lies through smaller aircraft where they can match supply and demand better than dropping an A380 or 777W everywhere they want to fly.

I predict a lot of their services to less major cities will lose A380/77W and receive A350/789 instead, and overall less service to many places with new destinations now able to support service due to the smaller and more efficient aircraft being available to EK.

And over the longer term these could become A321/follow-on or NMA destinations.


If that is their plan, then the 777X could get squeezed further if they add the A339 or A350-1000 around 2023.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:20 pm

Stitch wrote:
Except the A350-900 and 787-9 are hardly "inefficient" on those missions compared to the 787-10 and A330-900. Arguably they are just as efficient as the 787-10 and A330-900 based on real-world data posted by 787 and A350 pilots and fleet planning people. And EK can save a significant amount of money by choosing not to add the A330-900 ..


I've never claimed either was inefficient; they're state of the art as it is right now.

However, I tend to be a tad sceptical of "real-world data posted by .. pilots and fleet planning people", as there's no method available for you, me, or the overwhelming majority of people here, to verify what "they" post on these pages. And it flies in the face of logic, that a -10 or -1000 won't be more efficient (or, ultimately, lucrative) provided you can fill them up and operate them within their limits. Besides the added seats, both also offer huge increases in cargo carrying capacity, particularly for EK between Asia/India/Europe, where the 6-8 hours of flight time allow for a full house upstairs, and a ridiculous (40 tons?) amount of boxes downstairs.

I seem to recall that was one of, if not the, main reasons KLM went for the -10 to replace their 744Ms, and for hauling not-too-big boxes and SLF across the Atlantic at the same time, it beats ten tons of snot out of anything else on the market.

As for ordering the A339 I'm in full agreement; it that would seem daft once they've settled for the 787-9.
Last edited by B777LRF on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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seabosdca
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:22 pm

The story here (beyond the reduced number and value of total orders) is delivery dates.

Last year we were told that EK took the A330neo based on availability, because they wanted aircraft as soon as possible.

This year, those near-term A330neos disappear, to be partially replaced by 787-9s for delivery three and a half years from now and partially replaced by A350s on the back end of the current A350 order.

EK is slowing things down a bit. STC's yelling about "when we can get" 777X is very much a red herring.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:32 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).


Depends whose figures you use. Boeing still combines orders for the 777-8 and 777-9 under a single total for 777X. EK previously split their order 115/35 so the new total should be 91 if all those cancelled are -9s.

Geoff
Last edited by Geoff1947 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:40 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The story here (beyond the reduced number and value of total orders) is delivery dates...EK is slowing things down a bit. STC's yelling about "when we can get" 777X is very much a red herring.


Doubly so now that he is demanding the airframe undergo a minimum 16-month certification and testing program before he takes first delivery.

I would not be surprised if that 16 months is driven more by EK's ability to put said first frame into revenue service moreso than a deep-seated fear that anything less would not provide sufficient visibility into the safety and performance of said frame.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:56 pm

Geoff1947 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).


Depends whose figures you use. Boeing still combines orders for the 777-8 and 777-9 under a single total for 777X. EK previously split their order 115/35 so the new total should be 91 if all those cancelled are -9s.

Geoff


EK wouldn't cancel 778, they will let Boeing do.
All posts are just opinions.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 pm

Stitch wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The story here (beyond the reduced number and value of total orders) is delivery dates...EK is slowing things down a bit. STC's yelling about "when we can get" 777X is very much a red herring.


Doubly so now that he is demanding the airframe undergo a minimum 16-month certification and testing program before he takes first delivery.

I would not be surprised if that 16 months is driven more by EK's ability to put said first frame into revenue service moreso than a deep-seated fear that anything less would not provide sufficient visibility into the safety and performance of said frame.


Would you trust Boeing for a time limited quick flight testing and certification campaign, with corresponding less flight time for single frames in the current FAA Boeing certification mess? Is now the time to go for reduced flight testing compared to older campaigns?

I think what Tim Clark talks regarding the flight test campaign is reasonable, fits with former requirements. What Boeing seems to plan, an abbreviated campaign, seems to me unreasonable and I do not believe they get away with it, even having the FAA by the balls.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:28 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Would you trust Boeing for a time limited quick flight testing and certification campaign, with corresponding less flight time for single frames in the current FAA Boeing certification mess?


No, but then that was not I was advocating. It should take as long as it needs to - in the case of the original 777-200, that was 11 months and for the 777-300ER, it was about 12 months. If Boeing legitimately needs 16 months - or more - to certify it, then they should take the 16 months. But I don't believe they should be forced to an artificially extended period - whatever that value might be - if they don't need it.
 
airbazar
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:36 pm

Stitch wrote:
Except the A350-900 and 787-9 are hardly "inefficient" on those missions compared to the 787-10 and A330-900. Arguably they are just as efficient as the 787-10 and A330-900 based on real-world data posted by 787 and A350 pilots and fleet planning people. And EK can save a significant amount of money by choosing not to add the A330-900 (if they have indeed done so) in terms of spares and training (yes, the difference training is easy enough, but you still need to own or book time on an A330 simulator).

True but it's worth remembering that EK had a fleet of A330's right up until ~3 years ago and still has a large fleet of A380's, all of which share some commonality with both the A330NEO and the A350. in other words, adding an A330NEO isn't any more challenging or costly as adding the 787 or the A350.
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passeng ... ommonality
Last edited by airbazar on Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:38 pm

Are these agreements OEM's signed this year any better than last year agreements or EK still has the freedom to change/cancel/swap orders come DAS 2020. It appears EK moving around the same 1% deposit.
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Are these agreements OEM's signed this year any better than last year agreements or EK still has the freedom to change/cancel/swap orders come DAS 2020. It appears EK moving around the same 1% deposit.


Emirates is probably in a strong negotiating position based on the size of the orders (especially as it relates to the 777X) so both OEMs are likely willing to offer flexibility in the contracts.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:42 pm

Stitch wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The story here (beyond the reduced number and value of total orders) is delivery dates...EK is slowing things down a bit. STC's yelling about "when we can get" 777X is very much a red herring.


Doubly so now that he is demanding the airframe undergo a minimum 16-month certification and testing program before he takes first delivery.

I would not be surprised if that 16 months is driven more by EK's ability to put said first frame into revenue service moreso than a deep-seated fear that anything less would not provide sufficient visibility into the safety and performance of said frame.


Agree completely - this is far more EK rationalizing capacity/growth than first meets the eye.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:07 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:

Where did you read that seat width is the only metric for passenger experience?


Not the only one but the prime one. The only thing the 787 has over the A330neo is the lower cabin altitude.


I would say anyone who has been involved in a toxic fume event from a bleed air system would appreciate the system used by the 787 and the added humidity. Also anyone who has ever looked out an airplane window would probably prefer the 787 as compared to the A330 peephole that isn't even at eye level, the only knock could be electronic dimmer which I personally vastly prefer. Both great aircraft but the 787 is more revolutionary for passenger/crew health.


What type of compressors are running on the 787? Are they oil free? AFAIK oil free compressors are not very efficient. Usually you compress air and have to filter it for human consumption. Let the 787 get older and more numerous and we could see problems.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:36 pm

Stitch wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Are these agreements OEM's signed this year any better than last year agreements or EK still has the freedom to change/cancel/swap orders come DAS 2020. It appears EK moving around the same 1% deposit.


Emirates is probably in a strong negotiating position based on the size of the orders (especially as it relates to the 777X) so both OEMs are likely willing to offer flexibility in the contracts.


That was my worry. Boeing shouldn't have gone DAS '18, shouldn't have celebrated 787 written verbal deal as a win. That was just to reel in and cancel 777X orders, which started happening now in small segments.
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unrave
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:58 am

EK's order backflips over the last two years
Image

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
Ishrion
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:27 am

So orders are finished? Nothing on the rumored SpiceJet 737 MAX?
 
sabby
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:57 am

unrave wrote:
EK's order backflips over the last two years
Image

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/


To be honest, most of those were LOIs, so not really orders. Of course the PR/Marketing folks at the OEMs would beat their drums.
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:00 am

Ishrion wrote:
So orders are finished? Nothing on the rumored SpiceJet 737 MAX?


yeah, apparently last day is just that, an airshow! Just checked and no Press Conferences booked! so barring a surprise i think that's a wrap!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:35 am

B777LRF wrote:
As for ordering the A339 I'm in full agreement; it that would seem daft once they've settled for the 787-9.


Is it? Virgin is doing that with a much smaller fleet. Emirates certainly has the size to sustain 2 types.
As others have noted, they went for the 787-9, not the shorter-legged 787-10. This could indicate that an A330-900 fleet would be a regional workhorse, while the 787-9 is aimed at longer routes. And isn't that the segment where it has been reported that the A330NEO beats the 787?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:35 am

Stitch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Would you trust Boeing for a time limited quick flight testing and certification campaign, with corresponding less flight time for single frames in the current FAA Boeing certification mess?


No, but then that was not I was advocating. It should take as long as it needs to - in the case of the original 777-200, that was 11 months and for the 777-300ER, it was about 12 months. If Boeing legitimately needs 16 months - or more - to certify it, then they should take the 16 months. But I don't believe they should be forced to an artificially extended period - whatever that value might be - if they don't need it.


You are talking ancient history. Look at the 787, December 2009 to October 2011 22 month, and the A350. June 2013 to January 2015 19 month. Or when we talk about a changed frame, the A330neo October 2017 to December 2018 14 month, and that frame was changes much less than the 777X.

Under 12 month Boeing is talking about an abbreviated test campaign in today's world and Tim Clark does not like Emirates to become an beta tester.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:48 am

As a closing comment, my sincere suggestion to Boeing, Just send 20 grid girls and 2 interns to DAS 2020. Don't send anyone who can sign deals.
All posts are just opinions.
 
morrisond
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:01 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
As a closing comment, my sincere suggestion to Boeing, Just send 20 grid girls and 2 interns to DAS 2020. Don't send anyone who can sign deals.


What - are you afraid that after 8-10 months of flight test the 777x proves better than expected and the NMA launches and Boeing signs deals for 100's of frames, EK cancelling A350 in the process?
 
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Polot
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:08 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
As a closing comment, my sincere suggestion to Boeing, Just send 20 grid girls and 2 interns to DAS 2020. Don't send anyone who can sign deals.

You seem to be under the impression that EK/Boeing/Airbus can and does only negotiate and/or sign deals during air shows.

Running away from EK (or any customer) and avoiding their calls and pretending they don’t exist is not actually a viable strategy for any aircraft OEM, signed contract in hand or not. They just have to deal with the craziness and decide themselves how flexible they want to be, knowing that inflexibility may lead to cancellations.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:31 pm

morrisond wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
As a closing comment, my sincere suggestion to Boeing, Just send 20 grid girls and 2 interns to DAS 2020. Don't send anyone who can sign deals.


What - are you afraid that after 8-10 months of flight test the 777x proves better than expected and the NMA launches and Boeing signs deals for 100's of frames, EK cancelling A350 in the process?


No, I am concerned that Boeing allegedly agreed to ~80(debatable) frames of a customized type from the customer who was solely involved in designing the type.

If I understand correctly Emirates took deliveries from 2013 orders. Nothing happened after that.

Airbus lost in 2017, it will be Airbus turn to lose in 2021. With EK losing is winning, yes Airbus won by canceling A380 and losing A330neo.
Boeing supposed to have won a $16B order in 2017, only to be swapped for $8.8 Billion order and cancellations.

I don't see either one winning any new business.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:52 pm

sabby wrote:
unrave wrote:
EK's order backflips over the last two years
Image

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ai-462434/


To be honest, most of those were LOIs, so not really orders. Of course the PR/Marketing folks at the OEMs would beat their drums.


Yes the only cancellations were 39 A380s and 30 777s. Nothing else listed as a cancellation ever made it to the orderbook.

Geoff
 
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Revelation
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:22 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Is it? Virgin is doing that with a much smaller fleet. Emirates certainly has the size to sustain 2 types.
As others have noted, they went for the 787-9, not the shorter-legged 787-10. This could indicate that an A330-900 fleet would be a regional workhorse, while the 787-9 is aimed at longer routes. And isn't that the segment where it has been reported that the A330NEO beats the 787?

It seems EK does not want a "regional workhorse", they want a frame that can fly almost any route in their network, even if it means "abusing" a long haul plane to do short hops.

It's a big of a surprise to me, but that is what STC said when asked about why A339 did not make the cut.

In hindsight, we see they were/are happy using 773/77W in "regional" roles, seems they want more of the same but in A350/789 sizes as well.

Of course the thing STC did not say is it also allows him to put off writing some big checks in 2020 to 2023.
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PW100
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:38 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).


Depends whose figures you use. Boeing still combines orders for the 777-8 and 777-9 under a single total for 777X. EK previously split their order 115/35 so the new total should be 91 if all those cancelled are -9s.

Geoff


EK wouldn't cancel 778, they will let Boeing do.


Certainly if they had agreed delivery dates in the contract . . .
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Finn350
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:22 pm

musman9853 wrote:
[code][/code]
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).


we don't know how many of the 777x cancellations are for the 778 and how many are for the 779. my bet is mostly 778s getting dropped though.


Isn't the 778 development on hold (effectively cancelled)?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:06 pm

Finn350 wrote:
Isn't the 778 development on hold (effectively cancelled)?


It is on hold, but that does not mean or imply it is cancelled. Boeing put development of the 777-200LR on hold early in that program due to lack of sales and concentrated on getting the 777-300ER certified and into production, but they resumed it a couple of years later and then announced the 777 Freighter variant.
 
EChid
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Is it? Virgin is doing that with a much smaller fleet. Emirates certainly has the size to sustain 2 types.
As others have noted, they went for the 787-9, not the shorter-legged 787-10. This could indicate that an A330-900 fleet would be a regional workhorse, while the 787-9 is aimed at longer routes. And isn't that the segment where it has been reported that the A330NEO beats the 787?

It seems EK does not want a "regional workhorse", they want a frame that can fly almost any route in their network, even if it means "abusing" a long haul plane to do short hops.

It's a big of a surprise to me, but that is what STC said when asked about why A339 did not make the cut.

In hindsight, we see they were/are happy using 773/77W in "regional" roles, seems they want more of the same but in A350/789 sizes as well.

Of course the thing STC did not say is it also allows him to put off writing some big checks in 2020 to 2023.

I think the concept of a 'regional workhouse' only really exists in Asia, and a tiny bit in the US. If you look at the usage of aircraft everywhere in the world, very few airlines actually have a special fleet with more limited range to fill out short-range needs. EK flies A380s everywhere, including to India, the Middle East, and relatively short hops to Europe. Air Canada uses 787s on tonnes of 4-8 hour routes which are vastly 'underutilizing' their range, and LH/IB/AF/BA/KL/UA/AA/DL do the same with their Dreamliners, A350s, and A380s.
 
musman9853
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:05 am

Finn350 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
[code][/code]
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is the latest EK 779 order count? Is it 91 (115-24) (Wiki shows 104, that puts at 80).


we don't know how many of the 777x cancellations are for the 778 and how many are for the 779. my bet is mostly 778s getting dropped though.


Isn't the 778 development on hold (effectively cancelled)?

On hold yes, cancellation is still up in the air.
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Lingon
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:58 am

No one suggests the 789 was chosen over 339 to avoid the RR engine?
 
VV
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:06 am

Lingon wrote:
No one suggests the 789 was chosen over 339 to avoid the RR engine?


Is there any indication on which engine will power the 787-9?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:24 am

VV wrote:
Lingon wrote:
No one suggests the 789 was chosen over 339 to avoid the RR engine?


Is there any indication on which engine will power the 787-9?

As these are conversion from the 777X it's most likely GE.

I think it did indeed have an influence on selecting the 787, considering all the remarks coming from EK about reliability. They might not be too certain that the A330neo engines won't have similar issues as the Trent 1000.

With the option to convert a part the 777X order a GE powered 787 was a reliable option. And with so many 777X on order, which would be delivered over a long period of time they know that if they still want more 777s they can always order more on a later date. With the large order shuffle they could have a more diverse fleet without inceasing the total of outstanding orders. If they would have picked the A330neo there would be many more orders on order as it would cost more to cancel a part the 777 order without a conversion to another model.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:47 am

Revelation wrote:
It seems EK does not want a "regional workhorse", they want a frame that can fly almost any route in their network, even if it means "abusing" a long haul plane to do short hops.

It's a big of a surprise to me, but that is what STC said when asked about why A339 did not make the cut.


Either he's distracting us with a big shiny object or he himself is distracted by a big shiny object. Given his behavior over the years I tend to think it's the latter. He has always disliked the aircraft in the fleet that can't be plugged in anywhere, even when they are efficient workhorses (332, 773A). IMO he could have saved a whole lot of money over the years by flying 333s instead of 77Ws on sub-8-hour missions, and could still do the same in the future by ordering 787-10s and A350-1000s in place of a big part of his A350-900 and 777X orders.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:34 pm

Lingon wrote:
No one suggests the 789 was chosen over 339 to avoid the RR engine?


At the time, EK was on record as noting that their 787s would be powered by RR just as their A350s and A330neos would be. Also, EK's frames would almost certainly be powered by Trent 1000 TEN engines, which had alloy updates to prevent the IPT sulfidation corrosion issues experienced by the Package B and C engines. That being said, the TEN is now experiencing it's own issues, though in the HPT,

Also, Rolls is on record as stating the Trent 7000 on the A330neo does not suffer from the sulfidation corrosion issues so....
 
VV
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Re: Dubai Air Show 2019: Boeing Orders, announcements and discussion thread

Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:52 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
VV wrote:
Lingon wrote:
No one suggests the 789 was chosen over 339 to avoid the RR engine?


Is there any indication on which engine will power the 787-9?

As these are conversion from the 777X it's most likely GE.
.....


Interesting comment.

It means that the couple Boeing/GE would have just succeeded forcing Emirates to take Boeing/GE aircraft below and above A350-900.

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