BatonOps
Topic Author
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UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:04 pm

For the second time, UA is ending service to ELM.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/u ... ar-BBWL0xJ
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1382
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:11 pm

Ouch. Sounds like DL ran them out. Too bad.
 
toltommy
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:23 pm

Well I read the article, I'm guessing the 777 on the route was a bit much. I'm actually impressed with the 70%LF! Who knew there was so much demand?
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BatonOps
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:37 pm

toltommy wrote:
Well I read the article, I'm guessing the 777 on the route was a bit much. I'm actually impressed with the 70%LF! Who knew there was so much demand?


Ha Ha!!

I think it’s funny that UA tried ORD, EWR, and IAD and none of them worked
 
CALAV8R
Posts: 11
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:40 pm

toltommy wrote:
Well I read the article, I'm guessing the 777 on the route was a bit much. I'm actually impressed with the 70%LF! Who knew there was so much demand?


I actually laughed out loud to this response.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:50 pm

It’s probably not that it didn’t work, but they need the plane elsewhere. With the MAX out, there’s a lot of shuffling going on. They can probably use the plane elsewhere that makes more money in the mean time.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:21 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
It’s probably not that it didn’t work, but they need the plane elsewhere. With the MAX out, there’s a lot of shuffling going on.


1,329 mainline plus Express aircraft and you don't think they could find ONE for ELM? The weak are killed and eaten. Don't try to rationalize this as MAX driven.
 
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BA744PHX
Posts: 252
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It’s probably not that it didn’t work, but they need the plane elsewhere. With the MAX out, there’s a lot of shuffling going on.


1,329 mainline plus Express aircraft and you don't think they could find ONE for ELM? The weak are killed and eaten. Don't try to rationalize this as MAX driven.

So UA is considered weak for dropping an extremely unprofitable route with minimal demand? Even DL doesn't have year around service to their mega hub.
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Ishrion
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:33 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It’s probably not that it didn’t work, but they need the plane elsewhere. With the MAX out, there’s a lot of shuffling going on.


1,329 mainline plus Express aircraft and you don't think they could find ONE for ELM? The weak are killed and eaten. Don't try to rationalize this as MAX driven.

So UA is considered weak for dropping an extremely unprofitable route with minimal demand? Even DL doesn't have year around service to their mega hub.


I guess AA has the weakest network for not serving ELM.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It’s probably not that it didn’t work, but they need the plane elsewhere. With the MAX out, there’s a lot of shuffling going on.


1,329 mainline plus Express aircraft and you don't think they could find ONE for ELM? The weak are killed and eaten. Don't try to rationalize this as MAX driven.

What I am saying is - if there wasn't a shortage of airplanes, this may have stuck around even if it was only marginally profitable. When you're short airplanes - you have to make sacrifices.
 
GettingHigh38k
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:25 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:32 pm

Elmira loses service twice as did RDG with US and UA. Both cities in the same vicinity of other bigger airports. Just sucks.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:33 pm

Silliness ON:

Hello, ELM...this is your patron saint speaking.

My name is Meadows Field Airport, serving Bakersfield, CA (BFL).

I have lost more airlines and service over the decades since deregulation that probably any other city, certainly of my size.

My proximity to LAX and my lack of any kind of job force that requires the premium demand needed to maintain service of nearly ANY level has ensured that growth of any kind is slow and painful, and also that the city could wake up tomorrow to find every route canceled and every airline gone.

Let's take a look at my record:

Prior to deregulation, BFL had United to LAX and milk-run service to SFO via a central valley stop, as well as Hughes Air West to Las Vegas and SFO via SBA.

Then that morning came that we woke up and found our airport deserted. In the middle of the night, every single shred of evidence there was ever passenger service from this airport had been removed. Had the front door remained open, a tumbleweed would have blown in.

In 1982, Continental arrive for the first time. SAN-LAX-IAH lasted several months, then POOF! Gone without any warning after a couple of months.

In August, 1984, American brought in their sleek MD-80's to BFL with two daily flights to DFW via SBA. Strong, steady, and reliable service competed with United's schizophrenic scheduling of various tandems of SFO and DEN service via Fresno and Santa Barbara, seemingly changing with every updated flight schedule.

In 1987, Continental returned for a second time, after acquiring Frontier. UA was too deep in enjoying its lack of meds in its treatment of BFL's flight schedules to notice CO's arrival; however, load factors didn't materialize very well. Continental let the city know that we need to, "fly us - or we're out of here!!" by putting it on billboards. For the whole world to see. "Nice little airport y'all got here...it'd be a shame if anything were to happen to it..."

And they left after less than a year.

A cute little start up named Air LA set up shop at BFL in the mid-80's, even for a couple of months having a "hub" operation. But then we blinked, and the airline was gone: lock, stock, and barrel. All references to it are usually met with looks of "what are you smoking?" Maybe I am just hallucinating, but that's awfully specific.

America West must have used its original BFL service in the late 1980's as a tax write-off for business loss, as instead of connecting BFL to PHX - its major daily hub - it had only four daily flights to LAS, which had only one hub bank, the red-eye. There has NEVER been any kind of profitable demand from BFL solely to LAS. So why not PHX? Gone in less than 18 months.

United gave up any attempts at mainline by 1990. Various insectoid-like commuter planes plied BFL-SFO and BFL-LAX, but other than an emergency landing in 1992, Express was all there would ever be from UA henceforward.

AA maintained Eagle service to LAX along with a now once-daily non-stop MD80 to DFW. But in 1998, that disappeared, as did Eagle to LAX. BFL's strongest supporter for many years had vanished. And just to rub salt in the wound, absolutely no one rushed into fill the void. EMB's to LAX and EM2's to SFO was it.

America West Express returned in the early 2000's to PHX, which makes it the longest uninterrupted service from BFL to a non-California airport. Ironically, American returned to BFL by way of its purchase!

Continental returned for a third and final time with BFL-IAH service that lasted for a bit more than a year. At one point, this was the longest ERJ route in the world. "Issues with pilots" and "issues with planes" grounded the route.

United, after acquisition of Continental, flew this route, but then, well, as one would expect by now...bye, bye, Houston!

ExpressJet made one a.net user deliriously happy when it connected SAN to BFL, thus allowing said user to bypass the traffic of Los Angeles in comfort. BFL can rationalize that the airline went out of business, hence the loss of service; however, many ExpressJet routes were filled by Horizon, such as SAN-FAT (which continues to grow), but no one has thus far stepped in at BFL.

And the current torture: BFL has been "in talks" with Alaska/Horizon for PDX and/or SEA service. Every major and minor airport surrounding BFL, including FAT, SBA, and even SBP currently has.seen their market develop, but BFL can only "see but never touch".

The lesson in this long and tangled tale: If you want the premium service, you must ensure your community is attracting the businesses that drive the demand. Without them, you are someone airlines only used to know.

Thus ended the words of the Patron Saint. Silliness OFF.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7393
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:58 pm

DL flies up to 5x weekday to DTW on CR9s from ELM. They have increased their flights and capacity into ELM over the past several years.

This route was upgraded several years ago from CR2s to CR7s, and now CR9s and due to the demand for business travel and connections onto J cabin international traffic they wanted to put 2-class RJs into ELM.

Its noteworthy that DL flies up to 5x CR9 to ELM which is under the capacity purchase agreement with OO. Versus ITH with is 3x CRJ and BGM also 3x CRJ all under the at-risk agreement with OO.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:24 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Silliness ON:

Hello, ELM...this is your patron saint speaking.

My name is Meadows Field Airport, serving Bakersfield, CA (BFL).

I have lost more airlines and service over the decades since deregulation that probably any other city, certainly of my size.

My proximity to LAX and my lack of any kind of job force that requires the premium demand needed to maintain service of nearly ANY level has ensured that growth of any kind is slow and painful, and also that the city could wake up tomorrow to find every route canceled and every airline gone.

Let's take a look at my record:

Prior to deregulation, BFL had United to LAX and milk-run service to SFO via a central valley stop, as well as Hughes Air West to Las Vegas and SFO via SBA.

Then that morning came that we woke up and found our airport deserted. In the middle of the night, every single shred of evidence there was ever passenger service from this airport had been removed. Had the front door remained open, a tumbleweed would have blown in.

In 1982, Continental arrive for the first time. SAN-LAX-IAH lasted several months, then POOF! Gone without any warning after a couple of months.

In August, 1984, American brought in their sleek MD-80's to BFL with two daily flights to DFW via SBA. Strong, steady, and reliable service competed with United's schizophrenic scheduling of various tandems of SFO and DEN service via Fresno and Santa Barbara, seemingly changing with every updated flight schedule.

In 1987, Continental returned for a second time, after acquiring Frontier. UA was too deep in enjoying its lack of meds in its treatment of BFL's flight schedules to notice CO's arrival; however, load factors didn't materialize very well. Continental let the city know that we need to, "fly us - or we're out of here!!" by putting it on billboards. For the whole world to see. "Nice little airport y'all got here...it'd be a shame if anything were to happen to it..."

And they left after less than a year.

A cute little start up named Air LA set up shop at BFL in the mid-80's, even for a couple of months having a "hub" operation. But then we blinked, and the airline was gone: lock, stock, and barrel. All references to it are usually met with looks of "what are you smoking?" Maybe I am just hallucinating, but that's awfully specific.

America West must have used its original BFL service in the late 1980's as a tax write-off for business loss, as instead of connecting BFL to PHX - its major daily hub - it had only four daily flights to LAS, which had only one hub bank, the red-eye. There has NEVER been any kind of profitable demand from BFL solely to LAS. So why not PHX? Gone in less than 18 months.

United gave up any attempts at mainline by 1990. Various insectoid-like commuter planes plied BFL-SFO and BFL-LAX, but other than an emergency landing in 1992, Express was all there would ever be from UA henceforward.

AA maintained Eagle service to LAX along with a now once-daily non-stop MD80 to DFW. But in 1998, that disappeared, as did Eagle to LAX. BFL's strongest supporter for many years had vanished. And just to rub salt in the wound, absolutely no one rushed into fill the void. EMB's to LAX and EM2's to SFO was it.

America West Express returned in the early 2000's to PHX, which makes it the longest uninterrupted service from BFL to a non-California airport. Ironically, American returned to BFL by way of its purchase!

Continental returned for a third and final time with BFL-IAH service that lasted for a bit more than a year. At one point, this was the longest ERJ route in the world. "Issues with pilots" and "issues with planes" grounded the route.

United, after acquisition of Continental, flew this route, but then, well, as one would expect by now...bye, bye, Houston!

ExpressJet made one a.net user deliriously happy when it connected SAN to BFL, thus allowing said user to bypass the traffic of Los Angeles in comfort. BFL can rationalize that the airline went out of business, hence the loss of service; however, many ExpressJet routes were filled by Horizon, such as SAN-FAT (which continues to grow), but no one has thus far stepped in at BFL.

And the current torture: BFL has been "in talks" with Alaska/Horizon for PDX and/or SEA service. Every major and minor airport surrounding BFL, including FAT, SBA, and even SBP currently has.seen their market develop, but BFL can only "see but never touch".

The lesson in this long and tangled tale: If you want the premium service, you must ensure your community is attracting the businesses that drive the demand. Without them, you are someone airlines only used to know.

Thus ended the words of the Patron Saint. Silliness OFF.


Off topic for this thread, but I would say the demand is there for SEA-BFL-SAN and back. BFL is likely the next market AS would serve in California (although what else is there?) but who knows when that’ll happen...
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1496
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:14 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL flies up to 5x weekday to DTW on CR9s from ELM. They have increased their flights and capacity into ELM over the past several years.

This route was upgraded several years ago from CR2s to CR7s, and now CR9s and due to the demand for business travel and connections onto J cabin international traffic they wanted to put 2-class RJs into ELM.

Its noteworthy that DL flies up to 5x CR9 to ELM which is under the capacity purchase agreement with OO. Versus ITH with is 3x CRJ and BGM also 3x CRJ all under the at-risk agreement with OO.

Thanks to a wonderful contract with Corning. I'm going to guess that UA couldn't compete with DL on the terms of the contract and Corning pulled whatever they had with UA and they said the heck with it and decided to leave.
 
BatonOps
Topic Author
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:00 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:36 pm

flyinryan99 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL flies up to 5x weekday to DTW on CR9s from ELM. They have increased their flights and capacity into ELM over the past several years.

This route was upgraded several years ago from CR2s to CR7s, and now CR9s and due to the demand for business travel and connections onto J cabin international traffic they wanted to put 2-class RJs into ELM.

Its noteworthy that DL flies up to 5x CR9 to ELM which is under the capacity purchase agreement with OO. Versus ITH with is 3x CRJ and BGM also 3x CRJ all under the at-risk agreement with OO.

Thanks to a wonderful contract with Corning. I'm going to guess that UA couldn't compete with DL on the terms of the contract and Corning pulled whatever they had with UA and they said the heck with it and decided to leave.


Makes you wonder what ELM would look like without that Corning contract? I bet they wouldn’t be getting CRJ-900’s to DTW.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:37 pm

flyfresno wrote:
Off topic for this thread, but I would say the demand is there for SEA-BFL-SAN and back. BFL is likely the next market AS would serve in California (although what else is there?) but who knows when that’ll happen...


Bakersfield is the largest city/metro area in California without Alaska Airlines, if one considers Stockton part of the Sacramento region (and broadly speaking, it is).

Smaller airports without AS include SMX (a whopping 34 miles from SBP), OXR (64 miles to LAX and 35 miles to SBA), VIS (43 miles to FAT), and Merced & Modesto (smack dab between FAT and SMF and the bay area). Because of proximity to already established markets, it is highly unlikely these places will ever see AS or Horizon service; however, nothing is out of the realm of possibility.

Yes, I did go off on an enormous tangent; however, the lessons for ELM to learn about this are relevant to the topic: no air service is EVER guaranteed. Without the premium demand (and therefore the profit margins necessary to continue service), you're going to be dumped over and over and over again.

Any airport that loses the same airline service twice has BFL as its patron saint. Sad but true.
 
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LotsaRunway
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:16 pm

BatonOps wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL flies up to 5x weekday to DTW on CR9s from ELM. They have increased their flights and capacity into ELM over the past several years.

This route was upgraded several years ago from CR2s to CR7s, and now CR9s and due to the demand for business travel and connections onto J cabin international traffic they wanted to put 2-class RJs into ELM.

Its noteworthy that DL flies up to 5x CR9 to ELM which is under the capacity purchase agreement with OO. Versus ITH with is 3x CRJ and BGM also 3x CRJ all under the at-risk agreement with OO.

Thanks to a wonderful contract with Corning. I'm going to guess that UA couldn't compete with DL on the terms of the contract and Corning pulled whatever they had with UA and they said the heck with it and decided to leave.


Makes you wonder what ELM would look like without that Corning contract? I bet they wouldn’t be getting CRJ-900’s to DTW.

A quick check of up close seat maps shows that the front cabin sells very well. Filling the back end looks hit or miss.
I suspect ELM-DTW would be 3xCRJ at best if Corning didn't fill the front seats so consistently.
 
BatonOps
Topic Author
Posts: 724
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Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:44 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
BatonOps wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
Thanks to a wonderful contract with Corning. I'm going to guess that UA couldn't compete with DL on the terms of the contract and Corning pulled whatever they had with UA and they said the heck with it and decided to leave.


Makes you wonder what ELM would look like without that Corning contract? I bet they wouldn’t be getting CRJ-900’s to DTW.

A quick check of up close seat maps shows that the front cabin sells very well. Filling the back end looks hit or miss.
I suspect ELM-DTW would be 3xCRJ at best if Corning didn't fill the front seats so consistently.


ELM would be just like ITH and BGM if it weren't for Corning.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:16 pm

BatonOps wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
BatonOps wrote:

Makes you wonder what ELM would look like without that Corning contract? I bet they wouldn’t be getting CRJ-900’s to DTW.

A quick check of up close seat maps shows that the front cabin sells very well. Filling the back end looks hit or miss.
I suspect ELM-DTW would be 3xCRJ at best if Corning didn't fill the front seats so consistently.


ELM would be just like ITH and BGM if it weren't for Corning.

You'd think ITH would be an upgrade with service to four major hubs...
 
BatonOps
Topic Author
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:00 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:46 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
BatonOps wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
A quick check of up close seat maps shows that the front cabin sells very well. Filling the back end looks hit or miss.
I suspect ELM-DTW would be 3xCRJ at best if Corning didn't fill the front seats so consistently.


ELM would be just like ITH and BGM if it weren't for Corning.

You'd think ITH would be an upgrade with service to four major hubs...


I'm hoping that once the terminal renovations are done at ITH that we will see some service expansion.
 
Halophila
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:44 am

Re: UA dumps ELM...again!!

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:19 am

We certainly hope ITH sees an expansion of service with the new terminal renovations. It's a highly seasonal market (2 colleges (+TC3) and some local industry but small compared to Elmira). I wouldn't be surprised that if they upgraded service to DTW with CR7s/CR9s, the front would fill (and not through upgrades). Service to ATL or ORD would also provide good connections. ITH's top non-hub destinations are, I believe, in California thanks to Cornell and IC. With the introduction of ride sharing in upstate NY, it now makes connections between ELM, ITH (and SYR as well) much more possible for students. BGM and ROC are quite a bit further from ITH and less viable options. International service to ITH (they recently upgraded their handling facility) is highly unlikely, even with the large Canadian student population at both colleges (it's a 4 hour drive to Toronto).
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