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aemoreira1981
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Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:43 am

On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)
 
AB330
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:11 am

Aside from Jetblue and Indigo. Azul and Lufthansa have also decided to activate all emergency exits (Pair of overwing exits and Doors 3), while LCC like Cebu Pacific, Easyjet, Pegasus, Wizz Air and soon Air Asia are required to have all emergency exits activated due to there dense seating configuration.
 
77H
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:11 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)


To answer your question, the answer is yes. They can be activated if plugged or deactivated and plugged if sold to a new owner. If not, than there would be no reason to offer the overwing exits or 3L/R door for airlines who intend to just plug it. Because they can be activated and deactivated, not offering the option would lower re-sale value and limit the ability for the airline to reconfigure to a higher seat count.

For example, the original 739 did not have a door 3. That was added exclusively on the 739ER. However, airlines like AS and UA who had both chose to simply plug it. If there was no option to reconfigure, B would have simply sold frames absent door 3 to AS&UA who didn’t intend on using it. It is my understanding that the fuselage requires a bit of strengthening around the site of the door/plug which would add unnecessary weight, albeit minor and likely an extra maintenance item.

On that note, are there added complexities for the OEMs to manufacture frames with different exit configurations?
Airbus has indicated that eventually, they will discontinue offering the original 321 exit configuration in favor of the Flex config that features 2 overwing exits in lieu of door 2.

Quite a few airlines received NEOs with the original 4 door config, AS and HA come to mind.
If in several years either airline chooses to do a top up order, it is likely their only option would be the Flex fuselage, creating 2 distinct subfleets with different internal configurations.
While likely not an issue for larger carriers, could this create an issue for smaller carriers with smaller fleets like AS and HA? Could this dissuade them from topping up? If they demanded the original configuration could Airbus produce it?
Why would Airbus completely drop the option for the original exit configuration? Even if relatively few airlines order it, surely Airbus isn’t going to burn the “blueprints”.
While obviously not the same, most car manufacturers offer several “trim” options for the same model. Some of these trim options include modifications to the chassis, and are not simply cosmetic or confined to the interior. Seems like it’s never a bad idea to provide options, even if one is not overly popular.

77H
 
77H
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:26 am

Sorry, another observation and a few more questions.

It seems like the ability to activate or deactivate doors driving different seat count possibilities is becoming more common place and are options the OEMs are offering out of the box.

Why didn’t we see this type of offering on previous models? The 757 immediately comes to mind.
The 757-200 was offered in 2 configurations as near as I can tell. The most common was 3 full exit doors and 2 overwing exits, the other had 3 full doors, 2 overwing exits and a smaller exit door aft of the wings.
I’ve never heard of an airline plugging 1 of the overwing exits or deactivating door 2L/R. Similarly, I’ve never heard of door 2 deactivation on a 321CEO similar to what is being offered on the 321NEO.

Whats unique about the 321NEO that allows for so many exit configurations? The 757 is of similar length and the 321CEO is virtually identical. Have regulations changed or is there another factor that would drive seat count certs to low on the 757 and 321CEO if exits were deactivated? If so, what are they?

Is it possible for airlines to operate with an odd number of exits? For example, deactivating 2R but keeping 2L active on a 321 or 757.

77H
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:48 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)


NZ decided to plug 2L/R which allowed them to seat 220 in there A321NEO’s. Effectively removing an set of over wing exits, and leaving the aft wing doors allow an decent seating increase.
 
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itripreport
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:49 am

Both Turkish airlines and La Compagnie (not sure if other airlines) have opted on deactivating and blocking 3R/L, which basically means they're operating their A321s with 4 exit doors and 4 overwing exit doors.
 
United857
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:52 am

77H wrote:
Sorry, another observation and a few more questions.

It seems like the ability to activate or deactivate doors driving different seat count possibilities is becoming more common place and are options the OEMs are offering out of the box.

Why didn’t we see this type of offering on previous models? The 757 immediately comes to mind.
The 757-200 was offered in 2 configurations as near as I can tell. The most common was 3 full exit doors and 2 overwing exits, the other had 3 full doors, 2 overwing exits and a smaller exit door aft of the wings.
I’ve never heard of an airline plugging 1 of the overwing exits or deactivating door 2L/R. Similarly, I’ve never heard of door 2 deactivation on a 321CEO similar to what is being offered on the 321NEO.

Whats unique about the 321NEO that allows for so many exit configurations? The 757 is of similar length and the 321CEO is virtually identical. Have regulations changed or is there another factor that would drive seat count certs to low on the 757 and 321CEO if exits were deactivated? If so, what are they?

Is it possible for airlines to operate with an odd number of exits? For example, deactivating 2R but keeping 2L active on a 321 or 757.

77H

The A321neo ACF does not really "deactivate" doors 2L/R. Rather the doors have been completely removed structurally and simply do not exist. The fuselage no longer even has the door frames for 2L/R. In place of doors 2L/R, 2 overwing exits are available and doors 3L/R were moved aft a couple of frames. Depending on the seating configuration, airlines have the option to plug 3L/R with a similar plug to the 739ER or plug 1 pair of overwing exits.
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77H
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:59 am

United857 wrote:
77H wrote:
Sorry, another observation and a few more questions.

It seems like the ability to activate or deactivate doors driving different seat count possibilities is becoming more common place and are options the OEMs are offering out of the box.

Why didn’t we see this type of offering on previous models? The 757 immediately comes to mind.
The 757-200 was offered in 2 configurations as near as I can tell. The most common was 3 full exit doors and 2 overwing exits, the other had 3 full doors, 2 overwing exits and a smaller exit door aft of the wings.
I’ve never heard of an airline plugging 1 of the overwing exits or deactivating door 2L/R. Similarly, I’ve never heard of door 2 deactivation on a 321CEO similar to what is being offered on the 321NEO.

Whats unique about the 321NEO that allows for so many exit configurations? The 757 is of similar length and the 321CEO is virtually identical. Have regulations changed or is there another factor that would drive seat count certs to low on the 757 and 321CEO if exits were deactivated? If so, what are they?

Is it possible for airlines to operate with an odd number of exits? For example, deactivating 2R but keeping 2L active on a 321 or 757.

77H

The A321neo ACF does not really "deactivate" doors 2L/R. Rather the doors have been completely removed structurally and simply do not exist. The fuselage no longer even has the door frames for 2L/R. In place of doors 2L/R, 2 overwing exits are available and doors 3L/R were moved aft a couple of frames. Depending on the seating configuration, airlines have the option to plug 3L/R with a similar plug to the 739ER or plug 1 pair of overwing exits.


I understand they’ve been structurally removed. The question is why completely abandon the original configuration and move forward offering only the ACF version? Especially considering that numerous airlines have taken delivery of 321NEOs with the original configuration.

By doing this, airlines seeking a top up order in the future will have 2 subfleets of the same model.
Airbus has also essentially relegated the subfleet of original config NEOs to the prospect of lower resale values as they will be odd balls in the overall fleet.

To the layman, wouldn’t it be possible for Airbus to keep the original config and simply plug 2L/R for carriers that don’t want it?
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:49 am

itripreport wrote:
Both Turkish airlines and La Compagnie (not sure if other airlines) have opted on deactivating and blocking 3R/L, which basically means they're operating their A321s with 4 exit doors and 4 overwing exit doors.


Air Astana and Aer Lingus A321LR have 3R/L deactivate meanwhile Asiana, PAL and StarLux have also chosen to the same for there standard A321neo AFIK.
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:10 am

Here is the full list of possible exit door configurations, maximum seating capability and required number of cabin crew. The first sceenshot is the A321neo and the second is the A320neo. Screenshots from EASA certification documentation.

Image

Image
 
rbavfan
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:44 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)


JetBlue A321neo does require it activated as they have 200 seats and the US FAA door distance requirements.
The A320neo in the US is limited to 189 seats, not the 195 on the EU spec for the A320neo. US government has not approved over that limit due to 2 doors & 2 OWE limited to 189 seats.
The 737-200 max, 737-900ER, 737-9 max all require the added door or the will have max seating of 189.
The 737-Max 10 will not allow de-activation the door due to exit limit requirements in the US, do not know yet for EU.
Last edited by rbavfan on Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:56 am

reidar76 wrote:
Here is the full list of possible exit door configurations, maximum seating capability and required number of cabin crew. The first sceenshot is the A321neo and the second is the A320neo. Screenshots from EASA certification documentation.

Image

Image


Where is the US FAA approval for 200 seats without the 3rd door as it violate the FAA 60' between doors/owe requirements in the US. You cannot quote EASA Regs for US operations. They do not line up.

Look at Boeings old specs a little closer. The 4 door 757-200 does not have the over wing exits. Only the 3 door 757-200 model had the over wing exits. The 757-300 all have 4 doors/side & 2 over wing exits as standard.
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:06 am

Some airlines even deactivate one of the overwing exits on a regular A320. A few years ago I've been on a Saudia A320. I was pretty sure it was one, but inside the cabin I could only spot one overwings exit. Only after I've exited the plane I've noticed, that one of them was plugged:



This gets a bit of topic here, but I always thought it to be really interesting, how the B767-300 has three different door layouts, including one with two normals doors and two small overwings exits per side, so basically the same layout, as a much smaller high density A319:

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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 am

The reason Airbus deleted 2L/R was to allow airlines more flexibility for 2-class layouts with lie-flat seating. The A321 was initially designed for recliners or extra legroom seats towards the front of the cabin, not the much larger housings of something like the Thomson Vantage which need particular spacing to work properly.
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:44 am

BrianDromey wrote:
The reason Airbus deleted 2L/R was to allow airlines more flexibility for 2-class layouts with lie-flat seating. The A321 was initially designed for recliners or extra legroom seats towards the front of the cabin, not the much larger housings of something like the Thomson Vantage which need particular spacing to work properly.


Exactly :checkmark:
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:13 pm

77H wrote:
To the layman, wouldn’t it be possible for Airbus to keep the original config and simply plug 2L/R for carriers that don’t want it?


You couldn’t plug doors in the original configuration because there are no overwing exits In the original configuration and it would be too far to go to 3L/3R.
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:28 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Where is the US FAA approval for 200 seats without the 3rd door as it violate the FAA 60' between doors/owe requirements in the US. You cannot quote EASA Regs for US operations. They do not line up.

Look at Boeings old specs a little closer. The 4 door 757-200 does not have the over wing exits. Only the 3 door 757-200 model had the over wing exits. The 757-300 all have 4 doors/side & 2 over wing exits as standard.


I only have the EASA certification documentation available. EASA is the primary authority for certifying airbus aircraft. Of course the FAA can place additional restrictions when the aircraft is in US operations. I don't have FAA certification documents for the A320/A321 available. Can you find the documents and take a screenshot of the maximum seating capability with the different door configurations? Thank you. :-)

I can't see that deactivating the doors between the over-wing exits and the aft doors should pose a problem for the 60 feet limit. The A321 cabin isn't that long. It is 56 feet between the doors with mid-cabin doors plugged.

The A321 certification can't be compared directly to the 737/757. The A321 has wider front and aft doors, with wider slides (as and option that increases the exit limit). The A321 also have slides for the over-wing exits. The 737-8 is limited to 189 seats in Europe as well, while the A320 is certified for 195 seats. I don't know of any airline that has 195 seats on the A320. Cebu Pacific has 194 seats in their brand new A320.

Here are the door positions on the A321 ACF (screenshot from the Airbus A321 airport planning document):

Image
 
rbavfan
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:10 pm

reidar76 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Where is the US FAA approval for 200 seats without the 3rd door as it violate the FAA 60' between doors/owe requirements in the US. You cannot quote EASA Regs for US operations. They do not line up.

Look at Boeings old specs a little closer. The 4 door 757-200 does not have the over wing exits. Only the 3 door 757-200 model had the over wing exits. The 757-300 all have 4 doors/side & 2 over wing exits as standard.


I only have the EASA certification documentation available. EASA is the primary authority for certifying airbus aircraft. Of course the FAA can place additional restrictions when the aircraft is in US operations. I don't have FAA certification documents for the A320/A321 available. Can you find the documents and take a screenshot of the maximum seating capability with the different door configurations? Thank you. :-)

I can't see that deactivating the doors between the over-wing exits and the aft doors should pose a problem for the 60 feet limit. The A321 cabin isn't that long. It is 56 feet between the doors with mid-cabin doors plugged.

The A321 certification can't be compared directly to the 737/757. The A321 has wider front and aft doors, with wider slides (as and option that increases the exit limit). The A321 also have slides for the over-wing exits. The 737-8 is limited to 189 seats in Europe as well, while the A320 is certified for 195 seats. I don't know of any airline that has 195 seats on the A320. Cebu Pacific has 194 seats in their brand new A320.

Here are the door positions on the A321 ACF (screenshot from the Airbus A321 airport planning document):

Image


Very visible larger doors. However the FAA regs consider that door type and the 737 door type the same for egress. So it is considered the same by them as only 1 person departs at a time while 787/A350 can do 2 people at a time down the slides. The OWEED's to rear or fwd door are under 60 ft. but based FAA still specs 189 and would probably take a decade to update.

Also EASA docs are so much easier to read and find the data. FAA docs seem to be designed to make it hard to check things.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:35 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Also EASA docs are so much easier to read and find the data. FAA docs seem to be designed to make it hard to check things.


I have been trying to find documents for the FAA certification of the A320/A321, and can't find anything readable. :-)

In this article from Flightglobal it seems to indicate the FAA has accepted the increase to a maximum of 244 passengers onboard the A321, with all exit doors active. If I read this correctly it means they must have accepted the over-performing exits. Airbus also has applied to the FAA for a partial plug of the mid-cabin door, making it a type III door (as an over-wing exit) instead of a type C door. The maximum number of passenger would then be 235. EASA as not expected that door configuration.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448491/
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:39 pm

77H wrote:
Sorry, another observation and a few more questions.

It seems like the ability to activate or deactivate doors driving different seat count possibilities is becoming more common place and are options the OEMs are offering out of the box.

Why didn’t we see this type of offering on previous models? The 757 immediately comes to mind.
The 757-200 was offered in 2 configurations as near as I can tell. The most common was 3 full exit doors and 2 overwing exits, the other had 3 full doors, 2 overwing exits and a smaller exit door aft of the wings.
I’ve never heard of an airline plugging 1 of the overwing exits or deactivating door 2L/R. Similarly, I’ve never heard of door 2 deactivation on a 321CEO similar to what is being offered on the 321NEO.

Whats unique about the 321NEO that allows for so many exit configurations? The 757 is of similar length and the 321CEO is virtually identical. Have regulations changed or is there another factor that would drive seat count certs to low on the 757 and 321CEO if exits were deactivated? If so, what are they?

Is it possible for airlines to operate with an odd number of exits? For example, deactivating 2R but keeping 2L active on a 321 or 757.

77H



Your second 757 door config is slightly off. There is no overwing exit on the one where there is the small door just aft of the wings. The 753 does have two pairs of overwing exits in addition to the 3 pairs of main doors and smaller door aft of the wing, but that is because of it's increased seating capacity and length.
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:07 pm

77H wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)

To answer your question, the answer is yes. They can be activated if plugged or deactivated and plugged if sold to a new owner. If not, than there would be no reason to offer the overwing exits or 3L/R door for airlines who intend to just plug it. Because they can be activated and deactivated, not offering the option would lower re-sale value and limit the ability for the airline to reconfigure to a higher seat count.

For example, the original 739 did not have a door 3. That was added exclusively on the 739ER. However, airlines like AS and UA who had both chose to simply plug it. If there was no option to reconfigure, B would have simply sold frames absent door 3 to AS&UA who didn’t intend on using it. It is my understanding that the fuselage requires a bit of strengthening around the site of the door/plug which would add unnecessary weight, albeit minor and likely an extra maintenance item.

On that note, are there added complexities for the OEMs to manufacture frames with different exit configurations?
Airbus has indicated that eventually, they will discontinue offering the original 321 exit configuration in favor of the Flex config that features 2 overwing exits in lieu of door 2.

Quite a few airlines received NEOs with the original 4 door config, AS and HA come to mind.
If in several years either airline chooses to do a top up order, it is likely their only option would be the Flex fuselage, creating 2 distinct subfleets with different internal configurations.
While likely not an issue for larger carriers, could this create an issue for smaller carriers with smaller fleets like AS and HA? Could this dissuade them from topping up? If they demanded the original configuration could Airbus produce it?
Why would Airbus completely drop the option for the original exit configuration? Even if relatively few airlines order it, surely Airbus isn’t going to burn the “blueprints”.
While obviously not the same, most car manufacturers offer several “trim” options for the same model. Some of these trim options include modifications to the chassis, and are not simply cosmetic or confined to the interior. Seems like it’s never a bad idea to provide options, even if one is not overly popular.

77H

The 757 configuration with the mid-aft door didn’t actually have any overwing exits. You may have got that confused with one of the configurations in the 767-300’s plethora of configurations where it would have two sets of doors in front of the wing a row of overwing exits and back doors. Odd configuration, but I think DL has some.

The 757’s mid-aft door seems to be the same as what can be installed on the 737-900ER except it seems to always need to be used.

As for odd number exits I don’t think they’ve bothered to certify for that as it would just be a nightmare to configure seats for, but it isn’t something that hasn’t been done before looking at the MD-80 for example (if they don’t bother to use the tail exit).
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:08 pm

conaly wrote:
Some airlines even deactivate one of the overwing exits on a regular A320. A few years ago I've been on a Saudia A320. I was pretty sure it was one, but inside the cabin I could only spot one overwings exit. Only after I've exited the plane I've noticed, that one of them was plugged:



This gets a bit of topic here, but I always thought it to be really interesting, how the B767-300 has three different door layouts, including one with two normals doors and two small overwings exits per side, so basically the same layout, as a much smaller high density A319:




I've only seen the UA and DL door configuration. I didn't know there was a 3rd one....is this an expensive option with offering that many different configurations for the same plane?
 
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:14 pm

77H wrote:
United857 wrote:
77H wrote:
Sorry, another observation and a few more questions.

It seems like the ability to activate or deactivate doors driving different seat count possibilities is becoming more common place and are options the OEMs are offering out of the box.

Why didn’t we see this type of offering on previous models? The 757 immediately comes to mind.
The 757-200 was offered in 2 configurations as near as I can tell. The most common was 3 full exit doors and 2 overwing exits, the other had 3 full doors, 2 overwing exits and a smaller exit door aft of the wings.
I’ve never heard of an airline plugging 1 of the overwing exits or deactivating door 2L/R. Similarly, I’ve never heard of door 2 deactivation on a 321CEO similar to what is being offered on the 321NEO.

Whats unique about the 321NEO that allows for so many exit configurations? The 757 is of similar length and the 321CEO is virtually identical. Have regulations changed or is there another factor that would drive seat count certs to low on the 757 and 321CEO if exits were deactivated? If so, what are they?

Is it possible for airlines to operate with an odd number of exits? For example, deactivating 2R but keeping 2L active on a 321 or 757.

77H

The A321neo ACF does not really "deactivate" doors 2L/R. Rather the doors have been completely removed structurally and simply do not exist. The fuselage no longer even has the door frames for 2L/R. In place of doors 2L/R, 2 overwing exits are available and doors 3L/R were moved aft a couple of frames. Depending on the seating configuration, airlines have the option to plug 3L/R with a similar plug to the 739ER or plug 1 pair of overwing exits.


I understand they’ve been structurally removed. The question is why completely abandon the original configuration and move forward offering only the ACF version? Especially considering that numerous airlines have taken delivery of 321NEOs with the original configuration.

By doing this, airlines seeking a top up order in the future will have 2 subfleets of the same model.
Airbus has also essentially relegated the subfleet of original config NEOs to the prospect of lower resale values as they will be odd balls in the overall fleet.

To the layman, wouldn’t it be possible for Airbus to keep the original config and simply plug 2L/R for carriers that don’t want it?
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H


D2 was to close to the engine & would get hit by cheap labor jetway operators. Most US airlines never used D2 due to that.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:15 pm

reidar76 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Also EASA docs are so much easier to read and find the data. FAA docs seem to be designed to make it hard to check things.


I have been trying to find documents for the FAA certification of the A320/A321, and can't find anything readable. :-)

In this article from Flightglobal it seems to indicate the FAA has accepted the increase to a maximum of 244 passengers onboard the A321, with all exit doors active. If I read this correctly it means they must have accepted the over-performing exits. Airbus also has applied to the FAA for a partial plug of the mid-cabin door, making it a type III door (as an over-wing exit) instead of a type C door. The maximum number of passenger would then be 235. EASA as not expected that door configuration.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448491/


Yes but they have not accepted the A320 with 2 doors/2 owe per side and 195 seats.
 
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Polot
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:22 pm

77H wrote:
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H

Resale resale resale. When you start offering multiple door configurations resale value takes a hit if you don’t have the “popular” configuration. One configuration means they are all the same and it is easier to resell. The industry learned that lesson after Boeing went a little extreme on the 757/767 door configurations.

xxcr wrote:
conaly wrote:
Some airlines even deactivate one of the overwing exits on a regular A320. A few years ago I've been on a Saudia A320. I was pretty sure it was one, but inside the cabin I could only spot one overwings exit. Only after I've exited the plane I've noticed, that one of them was plugged:



This gets a bit of topic here, but I always thought it to be really interesting, how the B767-300 has three different door layouts, including one with two normals doors and two small overwings exits per side, so basically the same layout, as a much smaller high density A319:




I've only seen the UA and DL door configuration. I didn't know there was a 3rd one....is this an expensive option with offering that many different configurations for the same plane?

BA’s configuration was probably the least popular (mostly because the US carriers did not opt for it), but don’t have numbers to back it up
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:36 pm

Polot wrote:
77H wrote:
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H

Resale resale resale. When you start offering multiple door configurations resale value takes a hit if you don’t have the “popular” configuration. One configuration means they are all the same and it is easier to resell. The industry learned that lesson after Boeing went a little extreme on the 757/767 door configurations.

xxcr wrote:
conaly wrote:
Some airlines even deactivate one of the overwing exits on a regular A320. A few years ago I've been on a Saudia A320. I was pretty sure it was one, but inside the cabin I could only spot one overwings exit. Only after I've exited the plane I've noticed, that one of them was plugged:



This gets a bit of topic here, but I always thought it to be really interesting, how the B767-300 has three different door layouts, including one with two normals doors and two small overwings exits per side, so basically the same layout, as a much smaller high density A319:




I've only seen the UA and DL door configuration. I didn't know there was a 3rd one....is this an expensive option with offering that many different configurations for the same plane?

BA’s configuration was probably the least popular (mostly because the US carriers did not opt for it), but don’t have numbers to back it up

The USA launch customer, legacy Eastern, chose the same configuration as British Airways for their 757s.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:24 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Polot wrote:
77H wrote:
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H

Resale resale resale. When you start offering multiple door configurations resale value takes a hit if you don’t have the “popular” configuration. One configuration means they are all the same and it is easier to resell. The industry learned that lesson after Boeing went a little extreme on the 757/767 door configurations.

xxcr wrote:


I've only seen the UA and DL door configuration. I didn't know there was a 3rd one....is this an expensive option with offering that many different configurations for the same plane?

BA’s configuration was probably the least popular (mostly because the US carriers did not opt for it), but don’t have numbers to back it up

The USA launch customer, legacy Eastern, chose the same configuration as British Airways for their 757s.


AA, DL & UA operated them in all 3 configurations.
DL due to NW 757 door layout, AA due to TWA/HP/US mergers & UA due to CO merger.
Last edited by rbavfan on Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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77west
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:25 pm

zkncj wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)


NZ decided to plug 2L/R which allowed them to seat 220 in there A321NEO’s. Effectively removing an set of over wing exits, and leaving the aft wing doors allow an decent seating increase.


2L\R is not plugged; its not there at all. The fuselage is built without a cutout where the old A321 door 2 would normally be.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
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Polot
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:59 pm

rbavfan wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Resale resale resale. When you start offering multiple door configurations resale value takes a hit if you don’t have the “popular” configuration. One configuration means they are all the same and it is easier to resell. The industry learned that lesson after Boeing went a little extreme on the 757/767 door configurations.


BA’s configuration was probably the least popular (mostly because the US carriers did not opt for it), but don’t have numbers to back it up

The USA launch customer, legacy Eastern, chose the same configuration as British Airways for their 757s.


AA, DL & UA operated them in all 3 configurations.
DL due to NW 757 door layout, AA due to TWA/HP/US mergers & UA due to CO merger.


The photos are of 763s, not 757s.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:04 am

77west wrote:
zkncj wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
On all of these models, there is a second door or hatch aft of the wings but before the rear galley that can be deactivated. Deactivating that exit means a maximum exit door limit of 189 on Boeing models and 195 on the A321neo. My question is: if that exit is deactivated, and/or if one of the overwing exits is deactivated, and replaced with a plug, can it be reactivated upon sale or lease to a second customer, or is it permanently in that restriction? How does that affect remarketing? (On the A321neo Cabin Flex, I am only aware of two carriers with frames delivered who have chosen to activate all exits - JetBlue and IndiGo, although JetBlue's configuration wouldn't require it.)


NZ decided to plug 2L/R which allowed them to seat 220 in there A321NEO’s. Effectively removing an set of over wing exits, and leaving the aft wing doors allow an decent seating increase.


2L\R is not plugged; its not there at all. The fuselage is built without a cutout where the old A321 door 2 would normally be.


Because that's where the fuel tank is for the A321LR. The provision for R3/L3 was also moved back by 4 frames. For an airline like B6, it also provides for a better bathroom location. On the A321ceo, there is one bathroom at the front of the plane and 3 at the back. On the A321neo, one of the bathrooms is relocated to just before door L3, with a mini-galley on the opposite side just before door R3, meaning you have a bathroom not all the way at the back to reduce crowds there.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:20 am

Polot wrote:
77H wrote:
But the overall question I have is why not just keep both exit configs as available options? Are their complexities to doing so?
The same goes for the 739/MAX9. Why not give airlines the option to order a frame with door 3 deleted, like the original 739.
It’s probable that airlines like UA will operate the 739ER until retirement, and unlikely that they will configure the aircraft with a seat count that necessitates door 3 activation. So why not offer the option to order the frame absent door 3 entirely.

77H

Resale resale resale. When you start offering multiple door configurations resale value takes a hit if you don’t have the “popular” configuration. One configuration means they are all the same and it is easier to resell. The industry learned that lesson after Boeing went a little extreme on the 757/767 door configurations.

xxcr wrote:
conaly wrote:
Some airlines even deactivate one of the overwing exits on a regular A320. A few years ago I've been on a Saudia A320. I was pretty sure it was one, but inside the cabin I could only spot one overwings exit. Only after I've exited the plane I've noticed, that one of them was plugged:



This gets a bit of topic here, but I always thought it to be really interesting, how the B767-300 has three different door layouts, including one with two normals doors and two small overwings exits per side, so basically the same layout, as a much smaller high density A319:




I've only seen the UA and DL door configuration. I didn't know there was a 3rd one....is this an expensive option with offering that many different configurations for the same plane?

BA’s configuration was probably the least popular (mostly because the US carriers did not opt for it), but don’t have numbers to back it up


And the expensive A380 lesson for Airbus which lead to a highly standardized A350
 
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77west
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:53 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
77west wrote:
zkncj wrote:

NZ decided to plug 2L/R which allowed them to seat 220 in there A321NEO’s. Effectively removing an set of over wing exits, and leaving the aft wing doors allow an decent seating increase.


2L\R is not plugged; its not there at all. The fuselage is built without a cutout where the old A321 door 2 would normally be.


Because that's where the fuel tank is for the A321LR. The provision for R3/L3 was also moved back by 4 frames. For an airline like B6, it also provides for a better bathroom location. On the A321ceo, there is one bathroom at the front of the plane and 3 at the back. On the A321neo, one of the bathrooms is relocated to just before door L3, with a mini-galley on the opposite side just before door R3, meaning you have a bathroom not all the way at the back to reduce crowds there.


Yes, but you dont have to have the mini galley, NZ has just the additional bathroom near 3R, and seats opposite near 3L. I agree it is a better layout.
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
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Polot
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Re: Exit doors on A321neo (Cabin Flex), B739(ER) and Boeing 737 MAX 9/10

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:14 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
77west wrote:
zkncj wrote:

NZ decided to plug 2L/R which allowed them to seat 220 in there A321NEO’s. Effectively removing an set of over wing exits, and leaving the aft wing doors allow an decent seating increase.


2L\R is not plugged; its not there at all. The fuselage is built without a cutout where the old A321 door 2 would normally be.


Because that's where the fuel tank is for the A321LR. The provision for R3/L3 was also moved back by 4 frames. For an airline like B6, it also provides for a better bathroom location. On the A321ceo, there is one bathroom at the front of the plane and 3 at the back. On the A321neo, one of the bathrooms is relocated to just before door L3, with a mini-galley on the opposite side just before door R3, meaning you have a bathroom not all the way at the back to reduce crowds there.


The doors have nothing to do with the fuel tanks. Door 2 was removed to save weight and allow for more flexible layouts.

Door 3 was moved back a few frames to adjust the door spacing so 240 seats can be squeezed in without blocking the exits.

Plenty of ceos have mid cabin lavs at L/R3- see DL. B6 just decided at the time they ordered The A321ceo that they did not want one and changed their mind with the neo.

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