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thewizbizman
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DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:35 am

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-air ... ts-to-end/

Personally not a fan of ATL let alone the whole DL network losing another destination.

Don't believe I saw this posted here yet, so discuss. If I missed the thread, mods can do me in.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:43 am

This route never made sense from ATL, as the major O&D is to Florida and New York. From Florida to Haiti, you have American and Air France (Caribbean network), JetBlue, and Spirit. JetBlue is clearly the king of the Caribbean among US carriers, flying to FLL, MCO, and JFK year-round (and BOS seasonally) from PAP with a mix of 320 and 321 equipment...while DL was only flying the 73G.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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enilria
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:47 am

 
asuflyer
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:56 am

Haiti is having huge political problems and violent protests again. However few people in North America are aware as it rarely makes the headlines. Most Haitian expats I know are staying put in the US and have no plans to visit at the moment.
 
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thewizbizman
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:58 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This route never made sense from ATL, as the major O&D is to Florida and New York. From Florida to Haiti, you have American and Air France (Caribbean network), JetBlue, and Spirit. JetBlue is clearly the king of the Caribbean among US carriers, flying to FLL, MCO, and JFK year-round (and BOS seasonally) from PAP with a mix of 320 and 321 equipment...while DL was only flying the 73G.


They used to have direct from either JFK or LGA to PAP, but cut that in 2014 I believe.
"Aviation is the youngest big industry, but it is the fastest growing baby ever. A few years ago, it was called impossible to fly…The day of the airplane is surely here."

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codc10
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:06 am

Even AA is a shell of its former self at PAP, which used to be a major, high-value station. Bad times in Haiti.
 
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chepos
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:25 am

thewizbizman wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This route never made sense from ATL, as the major O&D is to Florida and New York. From Florida to Haiti, you have American and Air France (Caribbean network), JetBlue, and Spirit. JetBlue is clearly the king of the Caribbean among US carriers, flying to FLL, MCO, and JFK year-round (and BOS seasonally) from PAP with a mix of 320 and 321 equipment...while DL was only flying the 73G.


They used to have direct from either JFK or LGA to PAP, but cut that in 2014 I believe.


LGA never had PAP flights.

ATL-PAP never made any sense, the Haitian diaspora is heavily concentrated in NYC and South Florida (with a smaller amount in the Boston area).




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usdcaguy
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:57 pm

The presence of B6 in addition to AA probably did this, as well as the economic situation. PAP would need more tourist interest to support the ATL flight, and it’s not there.
 
tphuang
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:15 pm

But my question as in OAG thread still applies here. Given that GUA/SAP/MGA are also predominantly VFR/missionary type of destination (The one time I flew ATL-MGA, I don't recall seeing anyone that looked like a business traveler), how are they working out but PAP is not? I'm sure DL had been pulling a bunch of LGA/JFK-ATL-PAP traffic that will now go to B6 or AA via MIA. These type of routes while not being highly margined, helps build ATL into the hub that it is?

Are GUA/SAP/MGA different because Central Americans expats are more spread out across the country rather than just concentrated around NYC and south Florida? In all these cases, AA seems to have the better hub in MIA/DFW to serve the market and NK is there to provided low cost competition.
 
panamair
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:40 pm

thewizbizman wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This route never made sense from ATL, as the major O&D is to Florida and New York. From Florida to Haiti, you have American and Air France (Caribbean network), JetBlue, and Spirit. JetBlue is clearly the king of the Caribbean among US carriers, flying to FLL, MCO, and JFK year-round (and BOS seasonally) from PAP with a mix of 320 and 321 equipment...while DL was only flying the 73G.


They used to have direct from either JFK or LGA to PAP, but cut that in 2014 I believe.


JFK-PAP has come and gone a few times; the last instance of it was a Saturday-only service this past winter (December 2018 - March2019).
 
jmdc861
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm

B6 has been in Haiti now for years so that was not a factor. Further DL by flying to ATL was avoiding the already well served NYC and South Florida cities. And yes, there are Haitians scattered throughout the United States. Even AA which has a long history dating back to 1972 when it assumed Trans Caribbean's JFK-PAP route has now scaled down big time. Just 1 daily flight from South Florida (MIA) where there was once five flights, 3 from MIA (one at least a 767-300) and 2 from Fort Lauderdale. Haiti is just so paralyzed as a nation right now, truly tragic
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:50 pm

tphuang wrote:
But my question as in OAG thread still applies here. Given that GUA/SAP/MGA are also predominantly VFR/missionary type of destination (The one time I flew ATL-MGA, I don't recall seeing anyone that looked like a business traveler), how are they working out but PAP is not? I'm sure DL had been pulling a bunch of LGA/JFK-ATL-PAP traffic that will now go to B6 or AA via MIA. These type of routes while not being highly margined, helps build ATL into the hub that it is?

Are GUA/SAP/MGA different because Central Americans expats are more spread out across the country rather than just concentrated around NYC and south Florida? In all these cases, AA seems to have the better hub in MIA/DFW to serve the market and NK is there to provided low cost competition.


I think its two things:

1) As you mention, Haiti demand is basically Florida, NYC, Boston, and Montreal. There is no real demand in the South (outside Florida) or West of the Mississippi. For Central America, Los Angeles and Houston is massive centers of O&D in addition to Florida, DC, and NYC. The Bay Area and DFW also have a lot of demand to SAL.
2) There is so much more demand overall to GUA and SAP have a lot more demand overall than PAP. MGA used to as well and it will return at some point. GUA is becoming a very big tourist center because of its proximity to Antigua too.
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jumbojet
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:07 pm

tphuang wrote:
But my question as in OAG thread still applies here. Given that GUA/SAP/MGA are also predominantly VFR/missionary type of destination (The one time I flew ATL-MGA, I don't recall seeing anyone that looked like a business traveler), how are they working out but PAP is not? I'm sure DL had been pulling a bunch of LGA/JFK-ATL-PAP traffic that will now go to B6 or AA via MIA. These type of routes while not being highly margined, helps build ATL into the hub that it is?

n.


1 flight does not tell a story,

B6 flights to PAP are empty. I am sure DL doesnt mind giving up a few passengers to B6. Besides, its the niche route for B6.
 
OB1504
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:32 pm

jmdc861 wrote:
B6 has been in Haiti now for years so that was not a factor. Further DL by flying to ATL was avoiding the already well served NYC and South Florida cities. And yes, there are Haitians scattered throughout the United States. Even AA which has a long history dating back to 1972 when it assumed Trans Caribbean's JFK-PAP route has now scaled down big time. Just 1 daily flight from South Florida (MIA) where there was once five flights, 3 from MIA (one at least a 767-300) and 2 from Fort Lauderdale. Haiti is just so paralyzed as a nation right now, truly tragic


I hadn’t even noticed that AA cut down MIA-PAP to just one daily 737. At least there’s still Air France on the route.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:45 pm

asuflyer wrote:
Haiti is having huge political problems and violent protests again. However few people in North America are aware as it rarely makes the headlines. Most Haitian expats I know are staying put in the US and have no plans to visit at the moment.


This. There will be further service cuts if things don't change. I have cousins who live there and they're not allowed to leave the orphanage they run. This has been going on for about 6 weeks and apparently it's getting very difficult to find food in many areas. He said they hear gunshots just about every night.

The US media is too busy with politics to report on things that matter.
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drdisque
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:46 pm

I feel like the DL route was added primarily for aid workers and missionaries not coming from large Haitian communities. With the increase in unrest in the country, chances are a lot of this traffic has dried up.

It doesn't appear that DL sells the AF flight from MIA as a codeshare. I wonder if after they pull their own service if they will apply for a codeshare on it.
 
kameleonten
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:09 pm

jumbojet wrote:

B6 flights to PAP are empty. I am sure DL doesnt mind giving up a few passengers to B6. Besides, its the niche route for B6.


I was in Port-au-Prince two days ago, flying out with JetBlue. It is a scary place for sure but the flight was jam-packed. You couldn´t drop a needle. Also, the airport left a lot to be desired. Each airline has a dedicated gate and two hours before departure they herded everyone into the minuscule closed-off gate area (with second security check), with poor air conditioning, not enough seating for everyone and no toilets. It was cramped. Once boarded, the lack of bathrooms in the termial created a line to the onboard toilets extending to one third of the ´plane, slowing down boarding and departure as passengers seated in that part of the aircraft could not get to their seats. There were three English speaking flight attendants who politely and unsuccessfully tried to get people in their seats so we could depart and one French/Creole speaking flight attendant who then not so politely but very successfully attempted the same thing. It was quite an experience. Rarely have I been so glad to get off a flight...
 
chrisp390
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:45 pm

How is AA fairing at CAP now? They have been flying there a few years now in addition to PAP.
 
Brickell305
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:05 am

OB1504 wrote:
jmdc861 wrote:
B6 has been in Haiti now for years so that was not a factor. Further DL by flying to ATL was avoiding the already well served NYC and South Florida cities. And yes, there are Haitians scattered throughout the United States. Even AA which has a long history dating back to 1972 when it assumed Trans Caribbean's JFK-PAP route has now scaled down big time. Just 1 daily flight from South Florida (MIA) where there was once five flights, 3 from MIA (one at least a 767-300) and 2 from Fort Lauderdale. Haiti is just so paralyzed as a nation right now, truly tragic


I hadn’t even noticed that AA cut down MIA-PAP to just one daily 737. At least there’s still Air France on the route.


AA is still 2x daily on MIA-PAP. There's a 6:41 am flight and a 10:35 am flight. AA 377 and AA 949.

On the topic of the thread, DL does codeshare on AF's MIA-PAP flight as well.
 
x1234
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:50 am

Why don't they downgrade the flight to a CR9!? I know they use it for the ATL-HAV flight which sometimes is empty.
 
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DL747400
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:04 am

chepos wrote:
ATL-PAP never made any sense, the Haitian diaspora is heavily concentrated in NYC and South Florida (with a smaller amount in the Boston area).


And we all know how much $$$ there is to be made off the diaspora. :roll:

Face it. Haiti, like most of the Caribbean is garbage from a revenue perspective.
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avi8
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:20 am

tphuang wrote:
But my question as in OAG thread still applies here. Given that GUA/SAP/MGA are also predominantly VFR/missionary type of destination (The one time I flew ATL-MGA, I don't recall seeing anyone that looked like a business traveler), how are they working out but PAP is not? I'm sure DL had been pulling a bunch of LGA/JFK-ATL-PAP traffic that will now go to B6 or AA via MIA. These type of routes while not being highly margined, helps build ATL into the hub that it is?

Are GUA/SAP/MGA different because Central Americans expats are more spread out across the country rather than just concentrated around NYC and south Florida? In all these cases, AA seems to have the better hub in MIA/DFW to serve the market and NK is there to provided low cost competition.



Central America is a bit more diverse than Haiti in terms of traffic. Out of the 3 cities you mentioned, GUA is more evenly distributed when it comes to VFR, tourist, and business traffic. Besides the flights to the US, GUA has 7 daily flights to MEX, 4 daily flights to PTY, 1 daily flight to BOG, 1 daily flight to MAD, as well as multiple daily flights to the rest of Central America. Even though North American flights are plenty and of high value to the Central American cities you mentioned, they are of even greater value for countries like Haiti.
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SurfandSnow
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Re: DL Pulling Out of Haiti

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:32 am

DL has never been shy to cut services to the more unique and/or volatile destinations that they have served over the years - various places in Africa, Eastern Europe and the Middle East spring to mind (AMM, CAI, DXB, IST, KBP, KWI, ROB, SVO etc.). DL even saw reason to drop HKG - IIRC, before the ongoing violent protests erupted there. As such, it's hardly surprising to see all DL services to PAP end. HAV will probably be next on the chopping block.
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