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AC853
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Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:31 pm

This may have been discussed before but I am curious to know why some airlines, notably British Airways, Singapore Airlines and Ethiopian fly both the B787 and A350. With the different variants available they now seem to be similar in size and range. It would seem more economical to fly one type.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:47 pm

Because they are different aircraft, both in size and capability. To generalize, the A350 is a step bigger and carries more payload over a greater distance than the 787.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:57 pm

The A359 capacity lies between the 789 and 781 and has a trip fuel burn between the two generally speaking. The A359 has a higher payload range capability than both but also appears to have a higher purchase price so if you don’t need the performance it probably isn’t required.

The A351 is a different animal altogether, more akin to the 77w+ in payload range performance.

The 787 vs A350 range topic in the tech ops forum is well worth’s read. Needs some filtering when reading but very informative.

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IADCA
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:58 pm

AC853 wrote:
This may have been discussed before but I am curious to know why some airlines, notably British Airways, Singapore Airlines and Ethiopian fly both the B787 and A350. With the different variants available they now seem to be similar in size and range. It would seem more economical to fly one type.


One simple answer is that the versions those carriers operate aren't, at least the way they optimize them. You can more or less ignore the 787-8, as it's significantly smaller than the 350. But there's still overlap here, and it's a little complicated. All of those carriers configure the planes to have pretty significant capacity/config gaps. For example, BA uses the larger variant of the 350, which gives it ~70 more seats than even the 787-10 in their configs (and their 350 config is pretty dense). It's just a bigger airplane - there's no 787 that large.

ET likewise has a gap of ~30 seats between its larger 787 variant and the 359. To get the same capacity in a 787, they'd have to use the 787-10, which likely would have some performance issues out of Addis at the longer ranges they need. Again, the 350 is just a bigger platform with much larger wings, which matters there.

SQ is a different bird - three 359 fleets, one for ULR (where the 350 does have an advantage over the equivalent size of 787) and two different configs for shorter ranges, and dense 787-10s for regional. Again, There are 30+ seat gaps between all the configs.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:59 pm

1) Acquisition cost plays a role. If you can get 30 of each for less than 60 of one type, it may be worth it
2) Maintenance experience. Some airlines have large maintenance shops, used by other airlines as well, and you might as well operate the jet too for not much extra cost.
3) Politics. Buying from multiple suppliers in different countries makes you more independent from any single party. Also means that issues with one product won't hit your company too hard.
 
dupdup
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:47 pm

While I get the overall picture (the A350 is a bigger platform than the B787, hence carries more pax and/or has more range), I don't get why airlines like Japan Airlines end up using the A359 on their domestic market. They operate dozens of 787-8 and 787-9 already, wouldn't the 787-10 be a better option than the A350 then?
 
NZ516
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:32 pm

CZ is another airline they will soon have 20 A350s and 25 787 (8 and 9) as well they operate the 777 and the A330. They might order from both Airbus and Boring because one manufacturer cannot supply new aircraft quick enough for them.
 
Carpethead
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:09 pm

dupdup wrote:
I don't get why airlines like Japan Airlines end up using the A359 on their domestic market.

Eventually, they are going to operate both the A359 & A35J in the international configuration, so why not have a small A359 to work out the kinks initially.
It may not make sense to you, but certainly JAL does not make decisions on a whim. Perhaps the 787-10 is a little too big and 787-9 little to small so the A359 fits the bill.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:40 pm

NZ516 wrote:
CZ is another airline they will soon have 20 A350s and 25 787 (8 and 9) as well they operate the 777 and the A330.

And of course EK is slated to join the A350 + 787 list, presuming EK doesn't change its mind between now and 2023.
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:43 pm

dupdup wrote:
While I get the overall picture (the A350 is a bigger platform than the B787, hence carries more pax and/or has more range), I don't get why airlines like Japan Airlines end up using the A359 on their domestic market. They operate dozens of 787-8 and 787-9 already, wouldn't the 787-10 be a better option than the A350 then?


It's all about the early 787 problems that made JAL went to Airbus. Between the initial delay to later, a widespread grounding, mean JL wants to "diversify" their fleet just so if one plane has a problem, it won't be a total disaster in terms of operation.

Keep in mind they also ordered 13 A35J also (I believe they'll eventually replaced the 13x 77W in JL's fleet). The A359 are replacing their ancient B772 (non-ER) domestic fleet anyway. They did also get 4 extra B788 for domestic use, though, so there's that.

P.S. VN is another airline that operates both B789, B78X, and A359. TG is another. Both I would say are due to politics, though. TG in particular only operates 6x B788 and 2x B789 along with 12x A359.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:11 am

The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.
 
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:35 am

In relation to the 777:
The 787 is more range heavy than payload heavy.
The A350 is Airbus' true 777 replacement.

Contrary to popular belief, the 2 can coexist while having their similarities. If we include the 330neo, thats more of a way to undercut the 787 as a more affordable option especially for airlines with large 330ceo fleets and is fulfilling that role pretty well (while not being a 100% 787 capable, but a respectable 80% 787 capable) IMO.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:55 am

Why aren't more airlines using the same pilot pool for the 777/787 and A330/A350? You only see a few airlines actually realizing the true cost savings.
 
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why aren't more airlines using the same pilot pool for the 777/787 and A330/A350? You only see a few airlines actually realizing the true cost savings.

(1) because while they may share common type, there's still differences alongside the similarities, that prevents them from being completely interchangeable. There's still differences/handling training required for a switch.

(2) labor negotiations may be such that different schedules and different pay scales apply to the variants, and to the different operational portfolios that the airline may choose to use them on
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leftcoast8
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:44 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.


I like the "capacity of X but range of Y" comparison. I wonder how the 787-8 and 787-9, or how the A330/A340/A330neo, compare to the 777 family (both OG and -300ER-and-later). And how did the OG 777s compare to the older trijets or the 767 family? What is the 787-10 designed to replace? And what is the competitor to the 777-8X and 777-9X?
 
seat1a
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:52 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.


Good info, thanks. Not to get off track, but what routes are ideal for the A350-1000 for BA and Virgin Atlantic?
 
Qazar
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:27 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.


So wouldn’t that mean that, had Airbus continued with the A350-800 development, they would have capitalized on a full A350 family allowing airlines to operate just the one type?

And within the same scope, why did the B788/9 sell so well whereas their equivalent sized A358 got scrapped?
 
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:46 am

Qazar wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.


So wouldn’t that mean that, had Airbus continued with the A350-800 development, they would have capitalized on a full A350 family allowing airlines to operate just the one type?

And within the same scope, why did the B788/9 sell so well whereas their equivalent sized A358 got scrapped?


A358 was too heavy for its task, so the operating cost would have been way too high to justify the development. The A358 would only be attractive for airlines who ordered the A359 as their main long haul plane and needed a bit of extra range for long thin routes. But the A359 has got a very good range, so why order the A358, when you can have the A359 with its extra revenue potential for little extra cost and little - if any - performance penalty. The same reason why the B787-8 isn't ordered in great numbers anymore.
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:10 am

seat1a wrote:
Good info, thanks. Not to get off track, but what routes are ideal for the A350-1000 for BA and Virgin Atlantic?


With a little patience you will be able to see where they are deployed. Anywhere they operated a 746, 777, A340 is fair game.

Qazar wrote:
And within the same scope, why did the B788/9 sell so well whereas their equivalent sized A358 got scrapped?


There is more demand for smaller aircraft, just like there is more city pairs with shorter distances. The 788 isn’t really selling anymore, it’s dominated by the 789/10.

Dutchy wrote:
A358 was too heavy for its task, so the operating cost would have been way too high to justify the development.


I don’t think the 358 is too heavy, I think it is too expensive for the capacity it brings to the market. For that capacity more airlines are looking at short to medium range where the 787 and A330neo sit.
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:23 am

Qazar wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The A350-900 is the size of a 787-10 but with the range of a 787-9 (well a little bit more).

The A350-1000 is bigger and longer-ranged than any 787.

They're not direct competitors. They're very different jets.


So wouldn’t that mean that, had Airbus continued with the A350-800 development, they would have capitalized on a full A350 family allowing airlines to operate just the one type?

And within the same scope, why did the B788/9 sell so well whereas their equivalent sized A358 got scrapped?


The A358 was originally intended to be an optimised shrink of the baseline A359. As such it was attracting reasonable orders. However, once Airbus decided that they would simplify things by making the -800 just a -900 with a shorter fuselage, customers started losing interest to the point that it became clear the -800 would be a waste of time and money.

It cost Airbus a few A350 sales as not everyone switched to the -900. Some switched to the A330neo and of course, Hawaiian Airlines switched to the 787.

Given combined A330neo and A350 sales, I’m sure Airbus is pretty comfortable where they've ended up.
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Dutchy
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:36 am

zeke wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A358 was too heavy for its task, so the operating cost would have been way too high to justify the development.


I don’t think the 358 is too heavy, I think it is too expensive for the capacity it brings to the market. For that capacity more airlines are looking at short to medium range where the 787 and A330neo sit.


Is the A350 that much more expensive than a 787-8/9? Price actually paid are much harder to come by and I think Airbus and Boeing still calculate their base-price quite differently, so it is very hard to actually compare the two, price-wise, unless you are an airline getting offers for them them.
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zeke
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Re: Why do some airlines fly both Boeing 787 and Airbus A350?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:00 am

Dutchy wrote:

Is the A350 that much more expensive than a 787-8/9?.


The 2018 list price on the 358 and the 789 were the same at 281 million, the 358 with less passenger and cargo capacity. The 358 could carry payload further however that is a niche, which the A359ULR has picked up.
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