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flymco753
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Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:10 pm

I've spent a lot of time in Ann Arbor during my time in college and noticed they have a nice little airport that I've flown into a few times on lessons.

The airport isn't equipped to handle large jets, however I think that as the city and county continue to grow, it would be an interesting idea for the city to expand their airport and offer token air services.

The city is only 25 miles away from a major hub airport :duck: , which poses as a challenge in gaining any flights on a legacy carrier. Perhaps it's a market that smaller airlines like Midwest Express or Contour could look into and provide services to cities with business ties.

About 15,000 people moved into the city from out of state, 20,000 from in state, and 7,000 from abroad is provided by US Census data. The city currently has 400,000 residents and experts claim the county will reach 500,000 residents by 2025 due to developments in technology, health, and opportunities at the University of Michigan.

We're not talking about sending 10 daily A380's to Orlando, we're talking about a couple of flights using a small terminal serving important business destinations and perhaps a few off daily flights to leisure destinations. I'd like to imagine it as what St. Pete is to Tampa or what Sanford is to Orlando.
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klm617
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Believe it or not Ann Arbor had airline service at one point. The flight was routed DTW-Ann Arbor-BEH-ORD
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Far too close to DTW.
 
drdisque
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:31 pm

klm617 wrote:
Believe it or not Ann Arbor had airline service at one point. The flight was routed DTW-Ann Arbor-BEH-ORD


At one point there was also a small commuter flight that operated DTW-ARB-JXN-AZO and reverse
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati. There are quite a few developments going on right now and it would be interesting to see if they could eventually support their own market a few times per week on a 50 seat CRJ or E145.

Here is an interesting 5 year growth projection article as reported by MLive. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... jecti.html
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
LHUSA
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:42 pm

I see could Allegiant being interested should ARB develop the facilities/infrastructure.
 
KOMAtose
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:47 pm

I'm surprised they don't already.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:51 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati. There are quite a few developments going on right now and it would be interesting to see if they could eventually support their own market a few times per week on a 50 seat CRJ or E145.

Here is an interesting 5 year growth projection article as reported by MLive. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... jecti.html


I get it but there is no infrastructure in place, there doesn’t seem to be much demand for there to be any and with DTW right down 94 would it really be worth the cost?

Also if that MITrain actually even goes through (Can’t remember if DTW could be a stop or if Dearborn would be as close as you’d get) I think it would make even less sense cost wise.
 
sargester
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:52 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati. There are quite a few developments going on right now and it would be interesting to see if they could eventually support their own market a few times per week on a 50 seat CRJ or E145.

Here is an interesting 5 year growth projection article as reported by MLive. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... jecti.html


25 miles to DTW it would be impossible to make money on that flight without charging $500 for that segment alone on a reservation, the CASM is too high on a jet to fly a 25 mile flight, although, ann arbor could be a good place for Allegiant to kick off a flight to Sanford or Punta Gorda
 
NickLAX
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:54 pm

I'm in Ann Arbor for work once a month - it takes me 30-40 min to drive from DTW to and back. WHY - WHY - WHY would you need air service there? At night I can do it in 25 min from the Hertz lot. Flint and Lansing are good other options, don't know why you would need another offering so west to DTW where traffic isn't as bad.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:55 pm

If you look on Google Maps you'll see plenty of room to the south of the airport which can be used for development. I could see a 4 to 6 gate facility being built to handle anything from a CRJ/E145 to an A320/737. AvFuel/AvFlight is also headquartered at ARB, so they would have a company willing to handle ground and ticketing contracts. It appears they have everything in line to have a nice little operation by someone like Allegiant or Moxy.

Moxy is an interesting one. Ann Arbor would most likely have noise procedures to follow, so if Moxy used A220's, they'd be in a great position to build an operation there.

Ann Arbor would have a decent catchment too because of easy access on I-94 and US-23. They could hypothetically draw a significant crowd from as far west as Kalamazoo, north to Lansing, east through the suburbs of Detroit and south basically to Ohio.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:15 pm

Zero business case.
No infrastructure.
Underutilized assets at YIP
DTW is less than 30 minute drive from core of town.

Ann Arbor besides being its own city with the University and business community also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit.
Its not an island by itself, as evident by all the traffic headed into Ann Arbor during morning rush hour.

Service would have to be cost-competitive with DTW, and for business travel schedule-competitive. Almost all certainly not possible.

Add in an airport with zero infrastructure for scheduled air service, its not a wise investment of funding that doesn't exist.
 
umichman
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:17 pm

Never going to happen. They've tried to expand the runway several times and it's been shotdown by NIMBY's.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... on_at.html

Departures to southwest go right over pricey $500K+ homes.
Last edited by umichman on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:18 pm

Oh, and the current runway is 3,505 x 75.
This is completely a moot point unless they essentially built a whole new airport.
Massive NIMBYism in A2 isn't going to allow that to happen.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:23 pm

It's often easier and quicker to get to Ann Arbor from DTW than it is from downtown Detroit.

Unlike Tampa or Orlando, Metro Detroit isn't exactly a place tourists are flocking to...even though Detroit does have some cool attractions.
Last edited by Dominion301 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:25 pm

umichman wrote:
Never going to happen. They've tried to expand the runway several times and it's been shotdown by NIMBY's.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... on_at.html

Departures to southwest go right over pricey $500K+ homes.
I wonder if a proposal to use much quieter A220s would bring in a totally new viewpoint of expanding this airport. The A320neo would be ideal too.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
drdisque
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:26 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Oh, and the current runway is 3,505 x 75.
This is completely a moot point unless they essentially built a whole new airport.
Massive NIMBYism in A2 isn't going to allow that to happen.


Yes, if I recall the past commuter route was operated by a Beech C99 or a Twin Otter (maybe both). Any service to the airport would have to be on something like a Cessna 208 or Tecnam P2012 or maybe some sort of business shuttle on a PC-12 (but where would it go?). Anything bigger is a pipe dream.
 
umichman
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:31 pm

flymco753 wrote:
umichman wrote:
Never going to happen. They've tried to expand the runway several times and it's been shotdown by NIMBY's.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... on_at.html

Departures to southwest go right over pricey $500K+ homes.
I wonder if a proposal to use much quieter A220s would bring in a totally new viewpoint of expanding this airport. The A320neo would be ideal too.


The proposed expansions were only to better accommodate B-II class aircraft (wingspan up to 78 feet). About the largest aircraft it could handle would be a 30 passenger EMB-120 turboprop.

http://aireform.com/faas-airport-reference-codes/
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:33 pm

I doubt even 19 seaters could do well, Lansing would have a business case for 3 to 4 routes on small RJ's- DTW, a Chicago airport, and possibly Cleveland.
 
umichman
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:39 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I doubt even 19 seaters could do well, Lansing would have a business case for 3 to 4 routes on small RJ's- DTW, a Chicago airport, and possibly Cleveland.


Er, LAN already has scheduled passenger service to ORD, DTW, MSP, and DCA.
 
klm617
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:47 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Zero business case.
No infrastructure.
Underutilized assets at YIP
DTW is less than 30 minute drive from core of town.

Ann Arbor besides being its own city with the University and business community also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit.
Its not an island by itself, as evident by all the traffic headed into Ann Arbor during morning rush hour.

Service would have to be cost-competitive with DTW, and for business travel schedule-competitive. Almost all certainly not possible.

Add in an airport with zero infrastructure for scheduled air service, its not a wise investment of funding that doesn't exist.



Why does it have to be of a business nature. Why not make the service appealing to the college student flying on a budget. G4 seems to fit that bill but as you say there is a very slim chance of it coming to fruition but stranger things have happened and we should never poopoo the ideas of others just because they are not in alignment with our reality.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Zero business case.
No infrastructure.
Underutilized assets at YIP
DTW is less than 30 minute drive from core of town.

Ann Arbor besides being its own city with the University and business community also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit.
Its not an island by itself, as evident by all the traffic headed into Ann Arbor during morning rush hour.

Service would have to be cost-competitive with DTW, and for business travel schedule-competitive. Almost all certainly not possible.

Add in an airport with zero infrastructure for scheduled air service, its not a wise investment of funding that doesn't exist.


Why does it have to be of a business nature. Why not make the service appealing to the college student flying on a budget. G4 seems to fit that bill but as you say there is a very slim chance of it coming to fruition but stranger things have happened and we should never poopoo the ideas of others just because they are not in alignment with our reality.
There's going to have to be some kind of infrastructure as the city continues to develop. Of course it's wishful thinking, but it is within the realm of possibilities for the long term.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
blockski
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:01 pm

flymco753 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Zero business case.
No infrastructure.
Underutilized assets at YIP
DTW is less than 30 minute drive from core of town.

Ann Arbor besides being its own city with the University and business community also acts as a bedroom community for Metro Detroit.
Its not an island by itself, as evident by all the traffic headed into Ann Arbor during morning rush hour.

Service would have to be cost-competitive with DTW, and for business travel schedule-competitive. Almost all certainly not possible.

Add in an airport with zero infrastructure for scheduled air service, its not a wise investment of funding that doesn't exist.


Why does it have to be of a business nature. Why not make the service appealing to the college student flying on a budget. G4 seems to fit that bill but as you say there is a very slim chance of it coming to fruition but stranger things have happened and we should never poopoo the ideas of others just because they are not in alignment with our reality.
There's going to have to be some kind of infrastructure as the city continues to develop. Of course it's wishful thinking, but it is within the realm of possibilities for the long term.


If you were to prioritize Ann Arbor's infrastructure needs, this would be very, very low on the list.
 
KarlB737
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:15 pm

flymco753 wrote:
.....it would be an interesting idea for the city to expand their airport and offer token air services.


You need to look at the big picture which includes numerous limitations:

Courtesy: AirNav

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KARB
 
jplatts
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati. There are quite a few developments going on right now and it would be interesting to see if they could eventually support their own market a few times per week on a 50 seat CRJ or E145.

Here is an interesting 5 year growth projection article as reported by MLive. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... jecti.html


One big difference between ARB and DAY is that ARB and DTW are much closer to each other than DAY and CVG are. The driving distance between ARB and DTW is only 23 miles whereas the driving distance between DAY and CVG is 77 miles.

There are also many travelers in other major U.S. metro areas that do drive longer distances to commercial airports than the drive to DTW from Ann Arbor.

Examples of drives that are longer than the drive to DTW from Ann Arbor:
(a) the drive to MCI from Overland Park, Olathe, Lenexa, and other cities in Johnson County, KS
(b) the drive to BWI or IAD from Downtown Washington, DC
(c) the drive to MDW from northern Chicago suburbs
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:35 pm

While neither is all that likely, I'd say there is a better probability that they would plow-over ARB, move all the GA traffic over to YIP, and build houses on the site than entertain the idea of commercial air service.

Can you guys seriously claim with a straight face you see a way in which it makes and sense for commercial air service at ARB?
 
NiMar
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:41 pm

Far better utility to the whole state would be a passenger rail investment that links Grand Rapids to Detroit via Lansing, Ann Arbor, and DTW with the Wolverine line to Chicago using the new alignment from AA eastward. Fast frequent service and you'd up traffic at DTW as well.
 
KarlB737
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 pm

 
MIflyer12
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:46 pm

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati.


You ask a rhetorical question and then argue with the responses.

Ann Arbor to DTW is a lot closer than DAY-CVG or MLB-MCO. CVG isn't a hub with the frequency and non-stop destination count of DTW, either.
 
flybaby
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:50 pm

jplatts wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati. There are quite a few developments going on right now and it would be interesting to see if they could eventually support their own market a few times per week on a 50 seat CRJ or E145.

Here is an interesting 5 year growth projection article as reported by MLive. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/20 ... jecti.html


One big difference between ARB and DAY is that ARB and DTW are much closer to each other than DAY and CVG are. The driving distance between ARB and DTW is only 23 miles whereas the driving distance between DAY and CVG is 77 miles.

There are also many travelers in other major U.S. metro areas that do drive longer distances to commercial airports than the drive to DTW from Ann Arbor.

Examples of drives that are longer than the drive to DTW from Ann Arbor:
(a) the drive to MCI from Overland Park, Olathe, Lenexa, and other cities in Johnson County, KS
(b) the drive to BWI or IAD from Downtown Washington, DC
(c) the drive to MDW from northern Chicago suburbs


Same thing with Melbourne and Orlando. Putting “Orlando” in MLB’s name is just a marketing stunt. Ann Arbor is a lot closer to DTW than MLB is to Orlando.
 
DTWorld
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:00 pm

With Michigan flyer being an hourly service to/from DTW costing about $22 roundtrip, why bother? That's not even going into the aforementioned reasons described above.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Looks like I've derailed my original thought in this thread. My thought is, would Ann Arbor be able to support its own air service whether a new airport is built, ARB is used, or YIP takes a huge turn and is marketed as Ann Arbor Regional Airport. I'm not saying there needs to be any direct competition with the big airport down the road, but could it create an opportunity for airlines like Allegiant or Moxy or small business carriers to invest in off daily flights? These airlines might not necessarily want to invest in the big airport, so to have a smaller and more cost conscious opportunity in a growing area would be ideal for airlines of this caliber. I'm also not pointing towards a short term solution, I'm speaking in terms of a 25 year + solution.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
KarlB737
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 pm

flymco753 wrote:
My thought is, would Ann Arbor be able to support its own air service whether a new airport is built, ARB is used, or YIP takes a huge turn and is marketed as Ann Arbor Regional Airport.


I think we will turn the question around and ask you your own question. Would the fliers of Ann Arbor, Milan, Saline and the student and staff of U of M use ARB if it offered airline passenger service? Is the draw present. YIP isn't going to budge with passenger service that would further crowd the airspace that close to DTW. Your arguments slightly mirror the arguments for DET however ARB is present in a better area. That is why I state it only slightly mirrors the DET argument. Do you live in the Ann Arbor area and know whether the fliers would support such a concept.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:34 pm

Read the wikipedia page and tell me if there is any realistic scenario where the City of Ann Arbor would ever authorize any expansion of the airport?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor ... al_Airport

Not only will the City Council not authorize expansion, the surround Pittsfield Twp is completely against it, and they have been denying a 800 ft extension for decades.
 
blockski
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:06 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Looks like I've derailed my original thought in this thread. My thought is, would Ann Arbor be able to support its own air service whether a new airport is built, ARB is used, or YIP takes a huge turn and is marketed as Ann Arbor Regional Airport. I'm not saying there needs to be any direct competition with the big airport down the road, but could it create an opportunity for airlines like Allegiant or Moxy or small business carriers to invest in off daily flights? These airlines might not necessarily want to invest in the big airport, so to have a smaller and more cost conscious opportunity in a growing area would be ideal for airlines of this caliber. I'm also not pointing towards a short term solution, I'm speaking in terms of a 25 year + solution.


Why would any of the various governments make this investment, though? Certainly not worth it on a purely speculative basis. The City of Ann Arbor has no reason to try to expand ARB; and YIP is under the control of the same folks that run DTW - they have no reason to compete with themselves.

If those airlines want to serve this area, they can fly into DTW.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:24 pm

I don't see the case for this. I stayed in Ann Arbor on my one visit to Michigan and I don't think the drive to/from DTW took more than 40 minutes. Anyone looking to start an operation at ARB is staring down the barrel of an established hub that can get you pretty much anywhere in one stop without too much hassle on the ground commute.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:08 am

flymco753 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Far too close to DTW.
The same could be said about the location of Melbourne to Orlando or Dayton to Cincinnati.


CIN is a much smaller airport than DTW and is itself a spoke in most networks. DTW is a major hub airport with vast infrastructure and capacity. Ann Arbor is a 30 minute drive from DTW. I grew up in Detroit's northwest suburbs and it was a 45 minute drive to DTW for us. Moreover, DTW is not an enormous O&D market, while Orlando is.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Could Ann Arbor, MI eventually support air service?

Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:16 pm

DocLightning wrote:
CIN is a much smaller airport than DTW and is itself a spoke in most networks. DTW is a major hub airport with vast infrastructure and capacity. Ann Arbor is a 30 minute drive from DTW. I grew up in Detroit's northwest suburbs and it was a 45 minute drive to DTW for us. Moreover, DTW is not an enormous O&D market, while Orlando is.


Not to mention, Population around Dayton is something like 800k, double that of Ann Arbor area. And CVG is something like 65mi away from Dayton.

Ann Arbor to DTW is something like 27mi. Even Downtown Detroit (Using Renaissance Center as my reference) is 22mi away from DTW. Suburbs like Rochester Hill, Troy, or Sterling Heights are something like 40mi.

One of the more similar comparison I can think of is PAE vs. SEA - except Everett is ~40mi drive from SEA, and you actually have to drive across Seattle to get to SeaTac Airport. From A2 to DTW there are not that much traffic up until you get to the area near DTW.
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