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smartplane
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:07 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Has F-HPJB been un-retired? It operated AF 90/99 CDG-MIA-CDG today. All white, no titles.

I saw it pull up to the E gates at MIA yesterday. So strange that AF still has this aircraft in service given that it is now all white.

Some would say it's strange AF. :biggrin:

The strangest part - it's clean.

AF have probably done a HiFly plane and power by the hour deal.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:14 pm

smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
I saw it pull up to the E gates at MIA yesterday. So strange that AF still has this aircraft in service given that it is now all white.

Some would say it's strange AF. :biggrin:

The strangest part - it's clean.

AF have probably done a HiFly plane and power by the hour deal.


Wasn’t it mentioned earlier in the thread (I don’t know if it was confirmed or just speculated) that AF actually intends to retire the plane after December 31 for accounting purposes or something like that?

So the plane was repainted in preparation for retirement (why they repainted it early, I don’t know...maybe paint booth availability?) but not quite yet retired.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
Clackers
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:29 pm

I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.
 
upintheair2019
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:53 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Some would say it's strange AF. :biggrin:

The strangest part - it's clean.

AF have probably done a HiFly plane and power by the hour deal.


Wasn’t it mentioned earlier in the thread (I don’t know if it was confirmed or just speculated) that AF actually intends to retire the plane after December 31 for accounting purposes or something like that?

So the plane was repainted in preparation for retirement (why they repainted it early, I don’t know...maybe paint booth availability?) but not quite yet retired.


AF confirmed they will retire it on January 1st. Until then, it will operate revenue flights all white. F-HPJD will also go in 2020.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:03 pm

Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

Because it’s hard to find 500 people that want to fly the same place at the same time every day all year both ways.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:08 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seat1F wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Has F-HPJB been un-retired? It operated AF 90/99 CDG-MIA-CDG today. All white, no titles.

I saw it pull up to the E gates at MIA yesterday. So strange that AF still has this aircraft in service given that it is now all white.

Some would say it's strange AF. :biggrin:


Somewhere upthread there was an AF quote that it would be flown until the end of the year, it actually said it would be flown 1 day in late Dec.

I would surmise the plane is all white and all things are done to turn it back to the lessor, so why not fly it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:11 pm

Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

If a money maker, airlines would have ordered more. I had a lower cost per passenger than the 777-300ER but a higher cost per passenger than A35K or expected 779. Larger aircraft must discount to fill the additional seats; otherwise fire the yield management team for not extracting more revenue from earlier sold seats (I assume the same quantity of seats held for last minute full fare).

It isn't AF. The A380s just didn't have enough OiPs. Where are modern wingtip treatement? Where were the engine PiPs (botched RR that didn't meet fuel burn promise doesn't count).

Efficiency is relative. 777-300ER had three engine PiPs since A388 launch, A380 effectively zero.

You are aware the limited engine production runs increases engine maintenance costs, right?

I'm a fan of the A388, but there will be more profit per flight per 779 flight than per A388 flight.

You are also aware that no A388 has gone through heavy maintenance, right? The cost of that specialty maintenance is proving far too expensive. I hope many go through the HMV, but first Airbus must invest in the engineering to cut the costs. Ironically, the A388 was designed for the lowest cost, per seat, for wiring overhauls. However the early Catia errors made it the most expensive. Since wiring needs have changed, the cost for modern to seat wiring is prohibitive.

AF bought more A388s than they could make a good profit.

CDG has room for more runways, better to meet the premium passenger needs.

Lightsaber
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Seat1F
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:19 pm

Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

I disagree. There seems to be only one airline in the world that loves the A380: Emirates. It's been a problematic aircraft for most other carriers. I see most airlines that operate the A380 doing exactly what AF is doing: Retiring the type quite early in life.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

If a money maker, airlines would have ordered more. I had a lower cost per passenger than the 777-300ER but a higher cost per passenger than A35K or expected 779. Larger aircraft must discount to fill the additional seats; otherwise fire the yield management team for not extracting more revenue from earlier sold seats (I assume the same quantity of seats held for last minute full fare).

It isn't AF. The A380s just didn't have enough OiPs. Where are modern wingtip treatement? Where were the engine PiPs (botched RR that didn't meet fuel burn promise doesn't count).

Efficiency is relative. 777-300ER had three engine PiPs since A388 launch, A380 effectively zero.

You are aware the limited engine production runs increases engine maintenance costs, right?

I'm a fan of the A388, but there will be more profit per flight per 779 flight than per A388 flight.

You are also aware that no A388 has gone through heavy maintenance, right? The cost of that specialty maintenance is proving far too expensive. I hope many go through the HMV, but first Airbus must invest in the engineering to cut the costs. Ironically, the A388 was designed for the lowest cost, per seat, for wiring overhauls. However the early Catia errors made it the most expensive. Since wiring needs have changed, the cost for modern to seat wiring is prohibitive.

AF bought more A388s than they could make a good profit.

CDG has room for more runways, better to meet the premium passenger needs.

Lightsaber


No it doesn't have higher cost per pax than a A350 or B779, this is the Boeing fan mantra.

The cost of heavy maintenance for the A380 is relatively lower than any other aircraft, even for the terrible teens with the non-standard wiring. The non-standard wiring only factors in when you have EWIS issues, in which case troubleshooting and repairs could take a lot longer.
The reason for the lower cost is that you still only have as many systems to maintain, structural repairs are not major yet as they are relatively young, and structural repairs are easier on a larger aircraft like the A380.

Yours are opinions which don't reflect the reality.

As said numerous times, AF can't make money with a predominantly big twin widebody fleet, the A380 is hardly responsible for that.
In fact, once the A380 will be gone, you will see AF get deeper into losses as they get overwhelmed by climbing CAPEX.
The wise decision would have been to renew the leases on a killer deal or purchase the aircraft from the lessors.
Brand new uber-expensive A350's are not going to save AF, they're going to make Airbus and the lessors richer, while AF will sink into losses, to the point that it will be compared to AZ.

If you look at operating results at AF, they are very seasonal.
Sure, they lose money during the winter but more than make it up during the summer.
By putting high capex smaller aircraft what happens? You still have the same losses during the winter, but make less money during the summer... Hardly a wise decision.

In addition, whenever I travel through CDG, I see a bunch of A380's parked at gates.
In the meanwhile, their B77W's are flying packed to the gills to Tokyo 3-4 times a day and leaving a lot of demand on the ground for competitors like the ME3, LH , NH, JL to swoop up. If you utilise the A380 like that, obviously it's going to make less money than their B77W's.
AF haven't yet figured out that people seek the A380 and that they can commandeer markets just by putting it on key routes, even if not with the best hard product.
You are a Japanese travel office and you need to book corporate travel. The options are economy to Paris on a noisy B77W costing the company a lot of money, or AF for less on a more comfortable A380 though via NRT. It becomes a fair battle. What AF offers now is not even competitive.

11 years since EIS of the type, AF is the first airline to reduce the numbers of A380's.
Other airlines have been complaining and saying that they would reduce their fleets, but none of them have actually reduced their A380 fleets yet.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:11 pm

I would like to add, we never talk about the hundreds of 1997-2003 B777's that are stored prematurely.
They are big twins and have plenty of life left in them, so what's the problem?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

If a money maker, airlines would have ordered more. I had a lower cost per passenger than the 777-300ER but a higher cost per passenger than A35K or expected 779. Larger aircraft must discount to fill the additional seats; otherwise fire the yield management team for not extracting more revenue from earlier sold seats (I assume the same quantity of seats held for last minute full fare).

It isn't AF. The A380s just didn't have enough OiPs. Where are modern wingtip treatement? Where were the engine PiPs (botched RR that didn't meet fuel burn promise doesn't count).

Efficiency is relative. 777-300ER had three engine PiPs since A388 launch, A380 effectively zero.

You are aware the limited engine production runs increases engine maintenance costs, right?

I'm a fan of the A388, but there will be more profit per flight per 779 flight than per A388 flight.

You are also aware that no A388 has gone through heavy maintenance, right? The cost of that specialty maintenance is proving far too expensive. I hope many go through the HMV, but first Airbus must invest in the engineering to cut the costs. Ironically, the A388 was designed for the lowest cost, per seat, for wiring overhauls. However the early Catia errors made it the most expensive. Since wiring needs have changed, the cost for modern to seat wiring is prohibitive.

AF bought more A388s than they could make a good profit.

CDG has room for more runways, better to meet the premium passenger needs.

Lightsaber


Airbus launch specification garnered a total of 159 orders by 2005 and 189 by EIS in 2007. Now it has 251 so only 62 ordered in the following 12 years where actual performance was known. This is the best confirmation of what you noted above, the airlines chose since 2007 other aircraft, most likely for the relative profitability of the others. To be fair the B748i only had 10 orders after EIS, so just as dismal.

What changed

The 777-300ER EIS was in 2004, since then there have been over 1,000 orders for the 777 (no 777X included) where there was real in service performance data. So those that decide which planes to buy with actual skin in the game chose the B777 over the A380 and the B748i as well as the A340.

Also, between the launch of the A380 and EIS, the B787 and A350 appeared on the scene, those took a big bite out of the B777 but nailed the coffin shut on the A380 also.

I see the market forecasters didn't understand the drivers of the 744 was for its range more than capacity, once good planes such as the 77W were in service the airlines went for the slightly smaller choice.

________

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N14AZ
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:54 pm

Aero.de reports that MSN 040 will be most probably scrapped as well, subject to approval of the investors.
Source: https://www.aero.de/news-33855/Zukunft- ... egelt.html
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:35 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Aero.de reports that MSN 040 will be most probably scrapped as well, subject to approval of the investors.

A shame...strip it if they must but preserve the structure. That there is one unique shell with all the square footage for the avgeeks' ultimate dining and gaming experience or spacious living quarters. :bigthumbsup: Only problem is transporting it to its final location. :scratchchin:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dtremit
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Re: AF retired its first A380

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:10 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Delta's yield management is pretty spot on - they dropped NW's 747's as it made sense, haven't ordered the A380 and indicated it does not work for them. Remember, their main hub is ATL, a city of <1M, it does a lot thru LA, but their other hubs are not in huge metro areas - SEA 2.5M, Salt Lake <1M, MSP 3.2M, DTW <1M.


I'm not sure where you're getting those population numbers, but they don't line up. If you're looking at the city population, that's irrelevant (and by that metric Seattle is 750k, and MSP well under 1M for both cities).

CSA populations for those hubs: ATL 6.7M, DTW 5.4M, SEA 4.9M, MSP 4.0M, SLC 2.6M.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:07 pm

Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker.


The airlines would argue otherwise.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:14 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Aero.de reports that MSN 040 will be most probably scrapped as well, subject to approval of the investors.
Source: https://www.aero.de/news-33855/Zukunft- ... egelt.html


Am I interpreting the source right, that they tried to find new owners for MSN 040 but failed, or were they referring to the ill-fated SQ examples? If it's the former, was MSN 040 also built differently like the SQ examples that are being scrapped, or was it built more to standard?
 
A388
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:17 pm

Not really related to the topic but does anyone know which runways Air France uses their A380's on mostly in CDG (take-offs and landings)?

A388
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:46 pm

A388 wrote:
Not really related to the topic but does anyone know which runways Air France uses their A380's on mostly in CDG (take-offs and landings)?

A388


Same as every other aircraft operating out of there... Take off from the inners, land on the outers (most of the time).
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:00 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Clackers wrote:
I don't understand why airlines retire the A380? It is the King of the Skies. A true money maker. If an A380 flies the route, you book the A380, not inferior smaller planes like B777 or A350. AF are really missing a trick here.

If a money maker, airlines would have ordered more. I had a lower cost per passenger than the 777-300ER but a higher cost per passenger than A35K or expected 779. Larger aircraft must discount to fill the additional seats; otherwise fire the yield management team for not extracting more revenue from earlier sold seats (I assume the same quantity of seats held for last minute full fare).

It isn't AF. The A380s just didn't have enough OiPs. Where are modern wingtip treatement? Where were the engine PiPs (botched RR that didn't meet fuel burn promise doesn't count).

Efficiency is relative. 777-300ER had three engine PiPs since A388 launch, A380 effectively zero.

You are aware the limited engine production runs increases engine maintenance costs, right?

I'm a fan of the A388, but there will be more profit per flight per 779 flight than per A388 flight.

You are also aware that no A388 has gone through heavy maintenance, right? The cost of that specialty maintenance is proving far too expensive. I hope many go through the HMV, but first Airbus must invest in the engineering to cut the costs. Ironically, the A388 was designed for the lowest cost, per seat, for wiring overhauls. However the early Catia errors made it the most expensive. Since wiring needs have changed, the cost for modern to seat wiring is prohibitive.

AF bought more A388s than they could make a good profit.

CDG has room for more runways, better to meet the premium passenger needs.

Lightsaber


No it doesn't have higher cost per pax than a A350 or B779, this is the Boeing fan mantra.

The cost of heavy maintenance for the A380 is relatively lower than any other aircraft, even for the terrible teens with the non-standard wiring. The non-standard wiring only factors in when you have EWIS issues, in which case troubleshooting and repairs could take a lot longer.
The reason for the lower cost is that you still only have as many systems to maintain, structural repairs are not major yet as they are relatively young, and structural repairs are easier on a larger aircraft like the A380.

Yours are opinions which don't reflect the reality.

As said numerous times, AF can't make money with a predominantly big twin widebody fleet, the A380 is hardly responsible for that.
In fact, once the A380 will be gone, you will see AF get deeper into losses as they get overwhelmed by climbing CAPEX.
The wise decision would have been to renew the leases on a killer deal or purchase the aircraft from the lessors.
Brand new uber-expensive A350's are not going to save AF, they're going to make Airbus and the lessors richer, while AF will sink into losses, to the point that it will be compared to AZ.

If you look at operating results at AF, they are very seasonal.
Sure, they lose money during the winter but more than make it up during the summer.
By putting high capex smaller aircraft what happens? You still have the same losses during the winter, but make less money during the summer... Hardly a wise decision.

In addition, whenever I travel through CDG, I see a bunch of A380's parked at gates.
In the meanwhile, their B77W's are flying packed to the gills to Tokyo 3-4 times a day and leaving a lot of demand on the ground for competitors like the ME3, LH , NH, JL to swoop up. If you utilise the A380 like that, obviously it's going to make less money than their B77W's.
AF haven't yet figured out that people seek the A380 and that they can commandeer markets just by putting it on key routes, even if not with the best hard product.
You are a Japanese travel office and you need to book corporate travel. The options are economy to Paris on a noisy B77W costing the company a lot of money, or AF for less on a more comfortable A380 though via NRT. It becomes a fair battle. What AF offers now is not even competitive.

11 years since EIS of the type, AF is the first airline to reduce the numbers of A380's.
Other airlines have been complaining and saying that they would reduce their fleets, but none of them have actually reduced their A380 fleets yet.


If all of that was true, there would be a thousand A380s flying. Interesting you called out the poster for Boeing fandom then proceed to post this. It’s a great plan. But the economics don’t exist or it would have replaced or covered for all those ‘dreadful’ 77Ws and the like leaving high paying demand behind.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:35 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
11 years since EIS of the type, AF is the first airline to reduce the numbers of A380's.
Other airlines have been complaining and saying that they would reduce their fleets, but none of them have actually reduced their A380 fleets yet.

Actually LH cancelled some A380 orders so I'd say they reduced their intended A380 fleet.

airzona11 wrote:
If all of that was true, there would be a thousand A380s flying. Interesting you called out the poster for Boeing fandom then proceed to post this. It’s a great plan. But the economics don’t exist or it would have replaced or covered for all those ‘dreadful’ 77Ws and the like leaving high paying demand behind.

Indeed. Instead we see AF's A380 cabins were in 'dreadful' condition, they did the sums and realized they could not ever earn back what they would be putting into the A380s so decided to put the money in to 10 new build A350-900s instead "to replace the A380 fleet" ( ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/a ... 42.article ). This is after AF also cancelled some A380 orders.

Note that AF didn't even get the largest A350, they went with -900 instead of -1000. I think this says a lot about the VLA market.

Interesting behavior from two airlines that are flag carriers of two countries that used their taxpayer dollars to launch Airbus.
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ScottB
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:49 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I would like to add, we never talk about the hundreds of 1997-2003 B777's that are stored prematurely.
They are big twins and have plenty of life left in them, so what's the problem?


The main problem is that there are more efficient replacements with similar or better capabilities: the 787-9 and A350-900. For many missions, the A330-300 and A330-900 are also more efficient choices than the 777-200/200ER.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:00 pm

Unfortunately, most people on here don't have access to an airline's confidential monthly route operation report which paints a totally different picture to comparing aircraft technical data. For example, the number of hotel rooms required for an A380 crew can give the local station finance officer a near heart attack. Throw in A380 fuel requirements and weight based landing charges and yeah- a real money earner lol
 
argentinevol98
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Re: AF retired its first A380

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:25 pm

Is there a half a chance a widebody charter operator may have some interest? Particularly a current 744 operator looking to replace aging frames? Used 777s coming on to the market probably make more sense in terms of economics, but maybe at the right price it may be possible? Now from what I know that hasn't really worked out for Hi-Fly and many of the 744 charter operators also fly 744/748 freighters which helps the pax 744 economics in terms of common fleet type. But maybe, just maybe? I personally doubt it, but it would be cool to see.
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mxaxai
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:53 pm

Revelation wrote:
Interesting behavior from two airlines that are flag carriers of two countries that used their taxpayer dollars to launch Airbus.

The same airlines that have played a key role in defining the capabilities of every Airbus model.

Lufthansa in 1994: "We're kinda sceptical of the concept but open for discussions."
Lufthansa in 2001 - post 9/11 - : "Ordering the A380 is a key investment into our future; it will strengthen LH against international competitors."
Lufthansa in 2005: "We expect to top up our order in the future. The A380 provides economic benefits even if it isn't full, because its trip costs are the same as the 747."
Lufthansa in 2006: "We remain convinced of the A380's future despite the delayed delivery"
Lufthansa in 2010: "We thank Airbus for the decades of mutual support and cooperation. We are happy to introduce the A380 as an incredibly modern and efficient airliner into our fleet."
Lufthansa in 2011: "A top-up order for 2 more A380 will allow earlier delivery slots."
-- then something changed: Lufthansa orders 25 A350 in September 2013
Lufthansa in 2013: "Actually, our original order for 15 A380 was 10 firm + 5 options - our board of directors only let us convert three of those options."
-- and another 20 A350 in 2019
Lufthansa in 2019: "Profitable operation of the A380 is only possible on the largest trunk routes. We will return 6 A380 to Airbus for an undisclosed price by 2023."


From an airline's perspective, both decisions in 2001 and 2019 were correct:
  • Airbus offered a safe launch customer deal with high sale-back value - a deal LH and SQ recently returned to
  • The huge increase in development and production cost wasn't factored into the launch customer price - I suspect that some suppliers tried to recoup some of that cost through spare parts sales, hence the high scrap value of the A380 now
  • It was supposed to be a 1-for-1 replacement of the 747-400 - which it didn't quite achieve.
  • It is a great tool for hub operations - but it ended up benefitting the wrong hub
  • The Trent 1000 / 7000 / XWB (and the GEnx) were a significant upgrade while the Trent 900 was basically a Trent 800 derivative - hence LH choosing to get the A350 later on
  • Airbus promised a custom cabin layout for the launch customers - great initially but too expensive for later cabin refits
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
11 years since EIS of the type, AF is the first airline to reduce the numbers of A380's.
Other airlines have been complaining and saying that they would reduce their fleets, but none of them have actually reduced their A380 fleets yet.

Actually LH cancelled some A380 orders so I'd say they reduced their intended A380 fleet.

Initially, LH had 17 A380s on order.

They cancelled three airframes and are now operating 14 A380s.

And on top of it, LH will return 6 A380s to Airbus, thereby reducing the number of airframes to 8. This will happen in or until 2023.

So yes, they have decided to reduce the fleet significantly. That’s a fact.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:31 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Aero.de reports that MSN 040 will be most probably scrapped as well, subject to approval of the investors.
Source: https://www.aero.de/news-33855/Zukunft- ... egelt.html


Am I interpreting the source right, that they tried to find new owners for MSN 040 but failed, or were they referring to the ill-fated SQ examples?

They tried to find new owners for „all“ of their A380s already returned to them, i.e. MSN 003, 005 and 040.

filipinoavgeek wrote:
If it's the former, was MSN 040 also built differently like the SQ examples that are being scrapped, or was it built more to standard?

MSN 026 was the magic number, which was the first one that did not require manual re-wiring. There were also other upgrades or changes in the production after MSN 026 but I cannot remember what exactly. Nevertheless, MSN 040 was definitely „more to standard“ as you said.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:38 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting behavior from two airlines that are flag carriers of two countries that used their taxpayer dollars to launch Airbus.

The same airlines that have played a key role in defining the capabilities of every Airbus model.

Lufthansa in 1994: "We're kinda sceptical of the concept but open for discussions."
Lufthansa in 2001 - post 9/11 - : "Ordering the A380 is a key investment into our future; it will strengthen LH against international competitors."
Lufthansa in 2005: "We expect to top up our order in the future. The A380 provides economic benefits even if it isn't full, because its trip costs are the same as the 747."
Lufthansa in 2006: "We remain convinced of the A380's future despite the delayed delivery"
Lufthansa in 2010: "We thank Airbus for the decades of mutual support and cooperation. We are happy to introduce the A380 as an incredibly modern and efficient airliner into our fleet."
Lufthansa in 2011: "A top-up order for 2 more A380 will allow earlier delivery slots."
-- then something changed: Lufthansa orders 25 A350 in September 2013
Lufthansa in 2013: "Actually, our original order for 15 A380 was 10 firm + 5 options - our board of directors only let us convert three of those options."
-- and another 20 A350 in 2019
Lufthansa in 2019: "Profitable operation of the A380 is only possible on the largest trunk routes. We will return 6 A380 to Airbus for an undisclosed price by 2023."


From an airline's perspective, both decisions in 2001 and 2019 were correct:
  • Airbus offered a safe launch customer deal with high sale-back value - a deal LH and SQ recently returned to
  • The huge increase in development and production cost wasn't factored into the launch customer price - I suspect that some suppliers tried to recoup some of that cost through spare parts sales, hence the high scrap value of the A380 now
  • It was supposed to be a 1-for-1 replacement of the 747-400 - which it didn't quite achieve.
  • It is a great tool for hub operations - but it ended up benefitting the wrong hub
  • The Trent 1000 / 7000 / XWB (and the GEnx) were a significant upgrade while the Trent 900 was basically a Trent 800 derivative - hence LH choosing to get the A350 later on
  • Airbus promised a custom cabin layout for the launch customers - great initially but too expensive for later cabin refits

Interesting post.

Some reflections:

It's interesting LH said A380 trip costs were similar to 744 yet they not only still operate 744 but they also were the main mover and shaker behind getting the 748i launched and of course took A340-600 as well. One would think they would have really considered if they should not have approached this space with a bigger eye towards efficiency.

I agree, A380 was not blessed with great timing with respect to advances in engine technology. I keep thinking the same thing when people suggest Boeing should be doing a NSA with a target of EIS in 2027 or so.

If these favorable buy out contracts are a good thing, it makes me wonder if LH got similar treatment on its 748i contracts.

N14AZ wrote:
Actually LH cancelled some A380 orders so I'd say they reduced their intended A380 fleet.

Initially, LH had 17 A380s on order.

They cancelled three airframes and are now operating 14 A380s.

And on top of it, LH will return 6 A380s to Airbus, thereby reducing the number of airframes to 8. This will happen in or until 2023.

So yes, they have decided to reduce the fleet significantly. That’s a fact.[/quote]
Thanks for the helpful summary.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:30 pm

N14AZ wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Aero.de reports that MSN 040 will be most probably scrapped as well, subject to approval of the investors.
Source: https://www.aero.de/news-33855/Zukunft- ... egelt.html


Am I interpreting the source right, that they tried to find new owners for MSN 040 but failed, or were they referring to the ill-fated SQ examples?

They tried to find new owners for „all“ of their A380s already returned to them, i.e. MSN 003, 005 and 040.

filipinoavgeek wrote:
If it's the former, was MSN 040 also built differently like the SQ examples that are being scrapped, or was it built more to standard?

MSN 026 was the magic number, which was the first one that did not require manual re-wiring. There were also other upgrades or changes in the production after MSN 026 but I cannot remember what exactly. Nevertheless, MSN 040 was definitely „more to standard“ as you said.


If even the "standard" A380 and not just those older examples with different wiring couldn't find any takers, then I guess it means the scrapyard will be the fate of almost every if not every A380 to be retired over the next few years? Sounds like a scary prospect.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Same as every other aircraft operating out of there... Take off from the inners, land on the outers (most of the time).


But the outer runways are only about 2600-2700 meters long (09L/27R and 08R/26L). I don't think that is sufficient for an A380(?)

A388
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:47 pm

A388 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Same as every other aircraft operating out of there... Take off from the inners, land on the outers (most of the time).


But the outer runways are only about 2600-2700 meters long (09L/27R and 08R/26L). I don't think that is sufficient for an A380(?)

A388


It's plenty for landing
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:24 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Unfortunately, most people on here don't have access to an airline's confidential monthly route operation report which paints a totally different picture to comparing aircraft technical data. For example, the number of hotel rooms required for an A380 crew can give the local station finance officer a near heart attack. Throw in A380 fuel requirements and weight based landing charges and yeah- a real money earner lol


Aren;'t pilots and slots the most expensive non fuel costs? I am outsider so I am asking
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:35 pm

Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:15 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!


I don't know, but I do know the last set of A380 wings to ever be made will be leaving the factory Thursday and Friday ( ref: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... e-17662898 ).

I can't help but think having a breakers yard in a place called Knock is both ironic and tragic.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:53 pm

This must hurts Airbus the most to see the country’s national carrier parking the A-380.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:07 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!


Yes, I have seen what appears to be official info with registration F-HPJB and flight number AFR375S DRS-NOC. STA NOC 1330 (presumably UTC) on 7 Feb.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:17 am

iRISH251 wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!


Yes, I have seen what appears to be official info with registration F-HPJB and flight number AFR375S DRS-NOC. STA NOC 1330 (presumably UTC) on 7 Feb.


Do you have a link?
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:07 pm

iRISH251 wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!

Yes, I have seen what appears to be official info with registration F-HPJB and flight number AFR375S DRS-NOC. STA NOC 1330 (presumably UTC) on 7 Feb.

Wouldn't it be terribly ironic if the flight of the A380 heading to Knock to be scrapped passes over the last set of A380 wings leaving the factory in Wales?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:13 pm

If this is indeed going to be scrapped in Ireland; what was the point of going to Malta and being repainted?
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:23 pm

FB330 wrote:
If this is indeed going to be scrapped in Ireland; what was the point of going to Malta and being repainted?


For one, Air France probably doesn't want pictures of a partially dismantled A380 in its livery all over the internet or in the press -- it's not good for the brand. Also, the repaint was probably required in the contract as part of the lease return.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:27 pm

ScottB wrote:
FB330 wrote:
If this is indeed going to be scrapped in Ireland; what was the point of going to Malta and being repainted?


For one, Air France probably doesn't want pictures of a partially dismantled A380 in its livery all over the internet or in the press -- it's not good for the brand. Also, the repaint was probably required in the contract as part of the lease return.

I agree to both. The SIA A380s in Tarbes also got a clean coat of white paint before they were broken up.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:00 pm

iRISH251 wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Ok, can any expert sleuths out there confirm what is being reported on another forum, that this bird is to be flown to Knock for scrapping later this week? I read it this morning and dismissed it, but it appears to be gaining momentum now... another poster has also mentioned it on the Irish thread, but from same source. A tragedy if true!


Yes, I have seen what appears to be official info with registration F-HPJB and flight number AFR375S DRS-NOC. STA NOC 1330 (presumably UTC) on 7 Feb.


Most recent information is for the flight now to take place on the 10th. Still not really clear that this is definitely a final flight prior to scrapping.
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:03 am

Are there any new updates on F-HPJB's fate? It's already the 10th.
 
redcap1962
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:34 am

This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

Eddie Izzard
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:44 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I would like to add, we never talk about the hundreds of 1997-2003 B777's that are stored prematurely.
They are big twins and have plenty of life left in them, so what's the problem?


Where are these "hundreds" of 777-200ER's ? The airlines with large 777-200ER fleets still have most of them, BA, AF, KLM, AA, UA, DK, ANA and JAL. Varig went broke with several used 777-200's. Aeromexico's ended up in Vienna with Austrian Air. So where are these unwanted orphan undesirable planes ?
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:21 pm

redcap1962 wrote:

Knock a more likely destination to change ownership.

Could the airport be featuring in another movie, and the A380 has a part?
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:23 am

Are there any new updates on the fate of F-HPJB and what has happened to it since it went to Leipzig?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:02 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/AFR373S/23ed422b

F-HPJB off to be scrapped today.

Is that the second AF A380 off to be scrapped?
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:32 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.flightradar24.com/AFR373S/23ed422b

F-HPJB off to be scrapped today.

Is that the second AF A380 off to be scrapped?

I think this will be #3 with two ex-SQ A380s being scrapped at Tarbes:

Image

Ref: https://airwaysmag.com/industry/sad-sig ... crapyards/

I hope someone gets out to Knock and gets some video of that giant bird landing at a relatively small airport.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:58 pm

Removing the A380s from its fleet will cost AF a significant amount of money. When presenting the 2019-financial results, they stated that the overall cost will be about 370 million Euros, mainly for special depreciation.
Source: https://www.aero.de/news-34195/Teures-A ... rance.html

Wow, to depreciate 370 million EUR was cheaper for AF than to rehabilitate the cabins and to keep the A380s. :scratchchin:
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air France retires first A380; flown to Malta

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:37 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Wow, to depreciate 370 million EUR was cheaper for AF than to rehabilitate the cabins and to keep the A380s. :scratchchin:

We've seen suggestions that each A380 cabin refurbishment cost ~50 million €, for 9 aircraft that would cost them around 450 million €. In other words, AF wasn't expecting to make more than 80 million € in profits (if any) over the remaining lifetime of the fleet.
There may have been secondary considerations that are not reflected here, like reducing fleet and scheduling complexity by removing one model.

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