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VV
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 8:22 am

So Air France retires its A380 fleet now.

Do you have any guess which other airlines will follow this move in the next 12 months?
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 9:10 am

VV wrote:
So Air France retires its A380 fleet now.

Do you have any guess which other airlines will follow this move in the next 12 months?



My guess: Everyone but EK and SQ?
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
GoSteelers
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am

While I’ll admit watching it depart into the sunset each early evening was a beautiful sight which I will miss, I will not miss working it from an air traffic point of view. Slow and a pain in the ass to work around.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 10:20 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
VV wrote:
So Air France retires its A380 fleet now.

Do you have any guess which other airlines will follow this move in the next 12 months?



My guess: Everyone but EK and SQ?


In polite company one must add NH, QF and BA to EK and SQ. NH because they just got them (hands tied on the Skymark frames) but they could actually get 500+ on the plane. The others because the A380 does work on certain routes that they all have. Do I see a buyer for any A380's to be more than a parts donor? I cannot think of anyone that would lease or buy frames even at the $ 70M price point. EY's 35X's look quite good compared.
 
leghorn
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 10:59 am

Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.
Many of the reasons listed earlier in the thread as to why they are unattractive for passenger usage then become moot.
You don't care about skybridges or non-freight airprts or the correct 1st/business class configuration and then it become just a matter of whether the airframe is cheap enough and is it full.

https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... 20-CMV.png
777 isn't cheap because it is in demand for freight. It seems the A380 has become cheaper than it.

Lufthansa Teknik did some investigations:
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/a ... ification/
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 1:22 pm

leghorn wrote:
Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.
Many of the reasons listed earlier in the thread as to why they are unattractive for passenger usage then become moot.
You don't care about skybridges or non-freight airprts or the correct 1st/business class configuration and then it become just a matter of whether the airframe is cheap enough and is it full.

https://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploa ... 20-CMV.png
777 isn't cheap because it is in demand for freight. It seems the A380 has become cheaper than it.

Lufthansa Teknik did some investigations:
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/a ... ification/


That’s still capital expenditure to keep this plane in the air as a freighter.

Third party maintenance contract $$$$
Removal of floor panels $$$$
ULD motors $$$$
Elevator $$$$
New cargo door $$$$
Extended reach can loader $$$$
Redesign of wiring and plumbing $$$$
A380 towbars $$$$
Two 180 KVA ground power units $$$$
High torque supertugs $$$$
Engineering survey for wing tip clearance and stop mark $$$$
Cargo envelope concrete reinforcements $$$$
Taxiway reinforcements $$$$
Runway reinforcements $$$$
A380 pushback tractor $$$$
Extended reach elephant beta deicing trucks $$$$
More deicing fluid $$$$
Private deicing vendor contract $$$$

Most of these items need to be in place before you accept delivery of the aircraft, not to mention weight and balance to make sure a fully loaded A380F can handle 10,000 - 15,000ft runway at takeoff.
 
leghorn
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:00 pm

They're not as insurmountable for the big freight airports.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:06 pm

leghorn wrote:
They're not as insurmountable for the big freight airports.

Maybe, but just how many A380s might be converted? This line of thinking is whale-pie-in-the-sky
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:06 pm

leghorn wrote:
They're not as insurmountable for the big freight airports.


True, but even freight heavy airports such as JFK has A380 restriction zones. Taxiways and bridges not suited for the weight. That’s extra money being spent for a converted freighter. Today’s purpose built freighters only need a engineering survey for the lead in line stop mark and wingtip clearance.
 
leghorn
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 pm

60million was mentioned as resale price of a A380 now. That leeham screenshot mentions a resale price of 120m for a mid-life 777.
My arithmetic tells me there are 60 million reasons to try to make it work where ever it can work.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:49 pm

leghorn wrote:
60million was mentioned as resale price of a A380 now. That leeham screenshot mentions a resale price of 120m for a mid-life 777.
My arithmetic tells me there are 60 million reasons to try to make it work where ever it can work.

You do realize the purchase price, if amortized over 10 years or 12 years with interest, is only 12% to 15% of the opperating cost?

Estimates are a cabin refresh and overhaul costs are very high. The estimated hourly cost of an A380 is $26,000 tp $29,000:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgol ... 354088336a

The A380 makes great money if fairly high load factors in a high yield environment.

A cheap A380 (assume free) still costs $22,000 to $25,000 per hour. That was ok, but no better, against a 77W or A330. Now you want to fly that in a low demand world against the A321LR (soon xLR), A330NEO, 787, A359, and soon 779?

Where is the predictive maintenance (that will save more money than new engines).
Modern engines?
Modern wing tip treatments
Modern underside laminar flow? (A330NEO, A350, and in particular 779).

We've talked about the high cost of a full cabin refresh in other threads. The seats in the A380 are dated.

The market moved on. AF, LH, SQ, and QF all have done the numbers.

Perhaps we'll see the start of an A380 resale market (other than the sweet pay only as you fly HiFly deal, which doesn't seem to work for either party).

Lightsaber
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Opus99
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:53 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Thanks for the perspective. It'd be a very different world if we had a A305 and A320neo in 2000-ish rather than A380. I think we'd have seen an A350 aimed right at 777 much earlier, instead of going through that A350 MkI/II/III stuff, the A358 that didn't sell, the first A3510 that didn't sell with the original configuration and isn't selling much better with the beefed up wings and TXWB95, etc. We might have a line up of A320neo, A305mom, A330neoXLR, and a bigger A350 right now and not have lost all that time and money on A380.


The A380 was a masterstroke as it prevented the A320neo to be launched too early. The present NEO forced Boeings hand to launch the 737MAX and this would not have happened if the A320neo debuted over a decade ago. Anynormal company that did not have fat government defense contracts pumping in money would have already gone out of business. And the present A350 XWB forced Boeing to make the A380 AGAIN. The 777X is a VLA with all the problems it entails and dubious future as a product.

How you just compared the 380 to the 777X blows my mind. Which is all the problems it entails? Are you the flight engineer?
 
leghorn
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 2:56 pm

I've moved on to freight now, not passenger traffic.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 3:08 pm

leghorn wrote:
I've moved on to freight now, not passenger traffic.


Guys don’t understand that even with an A380 at a reduced price your still dealing with high operating cost and higher IRROPS costs as well. I can burn $60 million on station GSE equipment.

Elephant beta force air plus deicers $2 million
Douglas TBL-600/800 supertugs $1.5 to $2million

Plus everything else on my list times that by multiple stations that need this support equipment.

$60 million for the plane
$100 million plus to get everything up and running
 
9Patch
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 5:38 pm

leghorn wrote:
Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.


Putting in an internal lift is more cost effective than adding a new cargo door?
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 6:04 pm

9Patch wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.


Putting in an internal lift is more cost effective than adding a new cargo door?


Problem is an internal lift now becomes an essential component of the aircraft / more internal moving parts. It’s probably easier to add the second level door and invest in a extended reach can loader.
 
9Patch
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 6:33 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
9Patch wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.


Putting in an internal lift is more cost effective than adding a new cargo door?


Problem is an internal lift now becomes an essential component of the aircraft / more internal moving parts. It’s probably easier to add the second level door and invest in a extended reach can loader.

Not to mention that it adds weight and takes up valuable cargo space.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 6:57 pm

Well, this is a great opportunity for Leghorn Freightlines to acquire a dozen and spend the $ 1.5B to certify the conversion.

This real question is whether this thread will come back from this excursion.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 7:13 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Well, this is a great opportunity for Leghorn Freightlines to acquire a dozen and spend the $ 1.5B to certify the conversion.

This real question is whether this thread will come back from this excursion.

Hope springs eternal, where the A380 is concerned.

Remember when China was going to save the A380, all we had to do was wait and they'd pick more up.

When that didn't work, Macron went to China and gave the government a fine horse.

They still didn't bite.

I guess the thread should end, it's not like AF is going to un-retire the A380.
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leghorn
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 7:29 pm

Beautiful Bird.

Finding a second life for these planes will be the difference between Air France loosing just a lot of money and a humongous amount of money.
 
ScottB
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 7:57 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
If we were talking about an airline based in a desert city, you could peg it on the aircraft.
But this is Paris. A massive city and practically the only city with global air service in France.
If you can't fill 20 A380's with those parameters but an airline in a desert in the middle of nowhere can fill hundreds of them, you have a problem at the management level. And when you have a problem at the management level, fleet decisions are meaningless in a general analysis of an aircraft's utility.


Actually, the A380 was a poor fit for AF precisely because they hub at Paris -- but not for lack of traffic or global connections. Rather it is because Paris has plenty of runway capacity between CDG and ORY, not to mention room to build additional terminal space at CDG if needed (and more runways are also possible for CDG if the political will exists). Unlike its European legacy hub peers, apart from AMS, CDG really isn't capacity-constrained -- if AF needs more seats or more spokes, they can just add flights. (AMS's capacity constraints are political, not physical.) The split between CDG and ORY also makes CDG a somewhat less-than-ideal hub as connections between airports are undesirable and AF's large presence at ORY competes internally with the CDG hub.

Also, A380 is generally a poor choice across the North Atlantic due to the seasonality of traffic. Even if they were to swap it to beach routes in the winter, a configuration suitable for North American routes in the summer is unsuitable for beach routes in winter.

lightsaber wrote:
So the engines would burn 6% or so more than today. There was still demand for a NEO then, in particular, the A321.

Who wouldn't have wanted today's backlog in 2005?


The backlog would have been more or less the same in 2005 with or without a neo. Boeing would have been forced to respond with something if there were a significant market share shift and the then-current A320 was selling well (outside of disruptions caused by macroeconomic conditions). Airlines were going to buy narrowbody aircraft because they needed the capacity. And it's poor planning to assume your competitor will fail as badly on execution as Boeing did with MCAS on the MAX.

As Polot accurately pointed out, Bombardier forced the issue with the C-Series. And I don't think they could assume that no one else would step in to rescue the the C-Series even as cost overruns threatened Bombardier's existence. It is obvious that the A319neo deal with Republic/Frontier was all about kneecapping the order they had made for the C-Series.

Revelation wrote:
This one is on JL and Airbus. Of course the "engine guys" are gonna want to sell you what they've already developed i.e. a derivative engine. Of course engine tech moves forward in generations, and A380's intro was right in between generations. It's up to you to figure out what is possible and what your business case can support. If the business case closes with mid-generation engines and then it's a flop, the issue is that your business case sucked, not that the "engine guys" let you down. The real issue was political clout within Airbus. Chances are he knew if A380 needed to wait 3-4 years for new engines the other proposals would have one and his faction would lose, and now the "engine guys" are his scapegoat.


Of course it's entirely on JL and Airbus. Are we really supposed to believe that the planning, design, and marketing teams at Airbus are so unaware of the product roadmaps at GE/RR/PW that they had no idea that a generational step change in engine efficiency was planned to arrive within under five years of the mooted A380 EIS? Beach please. Does anyone really think the engine makers don't do their own market research before committing to multi-billion-dollar engine programs? Why do you think RR trotted out a warmed-over Trent while GE and PW would only commit to sharing a low-risk program. And yet a few years later there was a vigorous competition for the two spots on the 787 with bleeding-edge tech being a prerequisite. Clearly the engine makers felt that a market for 4,000 engines over 20 years (Airbus's planned production was 4 frames/month, times 240 months, times 4 engines per frame) was far too optimistic. In 2005, Boeing predicted a 20-year market for 3,000 small widebodies -- if we assume two-thirds share for the 787 that's the same number of engines sold (4,000) as one would expect for Airbus's mooted A380 production rate.

The engine makers don't like one manufacturer or the other. They like MONEY. PW would happily put the PW1000 on a 737MAX if the opportunity were there. RR would have happily supplied a Trent XWB derivative for an A380neo if Airbus had provided an adequate financial backstop. They weren't going to put hundreds of millions or a couple of billion dollars down to chase an extra 50 engines a year.

brindabella wrote:
But rather there is a massive emotional involvement in the A380.


Exactly. I've said this many times before: The Airbus market forecast at the launch of the A380 was designed to make the business case for the launch regardless of whether the market truly existed. Boeing predicted a market that was a quarter the size and they had been trying to internally make the business case for a stretched 747 for years. The A380 was a symbol of what a united Europe could achieve -- the world's largest passenger airliner, a new Queen of the Skies. The backdrop was Europe going from success to success -- the lowering of internal border controls, a unified currency, unprecedented freedom of movement for Europeans, expansion of the EU to the former Eastern Bloc, young people who thought of themselves as European before French, German, Spanish, British, etc. Success was assured.

VV wrote:
Those ten A380 do not need cleaning because they go directly to storage.


Well, one of them might get a quick spray or two if there are any water cannon salutes for the last to depart Roissy.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 9:15 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
VV wrote:
So Air France retires its A380 fleet now.

Do you have any guess which other airlines will follow this move in the next 12 months?



My guess: Everyone but EK and SQ?


In polite company one must add NH, QF and BA to EK and SQ. NH because they just got them (hands tied on the Skymark frames) but they could actually get 500+ on the plane. The others because the A380 does work on certain routes that they all have. Do I see a buyer for any A380's to be more than a parts donor? I cannot think of anyone that would lease or buy frames even at the $ 70M price point. EY's 35X's look quite good compared.


Ah yeah of course, good additions. QF doesn't have any other 'big' plane on their hands anymore after retiring their last 744's. (They should have gotten the 748's of course :stirthepot: :duck:)

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if BA also flies their A380's to the desert. They have 'only' 12 aircraft and they have 12 A350-1000's coming in. Not a one-on-one replacement but seat wise it isn't a gigantic downgrade, but much more fuel efficient than an A380 of course. I know they have old 744's flying around, but as far as i know it's for them cheaper to operate since they are company owned and all payed off? Fuel is really cheap at the moment so.... (but I'm not an BA-expert so please don't shoot me down over this. )
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 10:31 pm

If someone (like BA) can pretty much fill a dozen 380s year around at decent yields they will go until worn out.
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Devilfish
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Mon May 25, 2020 10:39 pm

leghorn wrote:
Beautiful Bird.

Wither goest my fine feathered friend...doth it fly the coop? COVID-19 certainly taketh away sense of humor and raised hackles. :razz:

leghorn wrote:
Finding a second life for these planes will be the difference between Air France loosing just a lot of money and a humongous amount of money.

Wither they go, thou canst follow...but thou shalt follow them afterwards. The birds in the heaven knoweth the time and place when they fly away, but does thou know wither thou art speeding?
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ikramerica
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 3:26 am

JFKalumni wrote:
9Patch wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Some genius will find out how to lay down a lattice of light carbon fibre or aluminium support rods and beams for the floor and the planes will become attractive for Freight.
I'd guess they'll put in some sort of internal lift from floor to floor so that fewer expensive cargo doors are needed.


Putting in an internal lift is more cost effective than adding a new cargo door?


Problem is an internal lift now becomes an essential component of the aircraft / more internal moving parts. It’s probably easier to add the second level door and invest in a extended reach can loader.

Just spit balling but the lift can be pallet sized and can be inserted and removed. Rather than carry the dead weight around. Each cargo hub would have 2 or more.

But it’s all moot since it’s not happening.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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par13del
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 4:02 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If someone (like BA) can pretty much fill a dozen 380s year around at decent yields they will go until worn out.

Well BA were still operating their Concorde a/c profitably when the OEM decided to end support, so with Airbus ending production, how long do you think they will continue to support the a/c, that is another aspect to be looked at, everyone just assumes Airbus wants to see the A380 slowly fade into the sunset.
 
Sokes
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 7:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
You do realize the purchase price, if amortized over 10 years or 12 years with interest, is only 12% to 15% of the opperating cost?

At least I for myself didn't realize it. Interesting what low interest rates can lead to.

I conclude:
-expensive ground equipment that's probably just in the way when no A380 is around. In other words beside Emirates and probably Singapore Airlines no economy of scale with ground equipment. @JFKalumni: nice list
-low interest rates reduces capital cost strongly.
-engine tech was unfortunate chosen.
-more maintenance because of four engines
-wrong length or alternatively wrong wing
-too low production for economy of scale

I still believe the A380 can be put to good use where no cargo is desired. That means transpacific.
I assume Air France is selling the A380 ground equipment for a song? Buy two, get the ground equipment for free?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
ltbewr
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 8:03 am

In the end, it all comes down to money. For AF, the Pandemic accelerated plans to phase the A380 out in a few years anyway as just never financially viable for them.
 
marcelh
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 10:12 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:


My guess: Everyone but EK and SQ?


In polite company one must add NH, QF and BA to EK and SQ. NH because they just got them (hands tied on the Skymark frames) but they could actually get 500+ on the plane. The others because the A380 does work on certain routes that they all have. Do I see a buyer for any A380's to be more than a parts donor? I cannot think of anyone that would lease or buy frames even at the $ 70M price point. EY's 35X's look quite good compared.


Ah yeah of course, good additions. QF doesn't have any other 'big' plane on their hands anymore after retiring their last 744's. (They should have gotten the 748's of course :stirthepot: :duck:)

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if BA also flies their A380's to the desert. They have 'only' 12 aircraft and they have 12 A350-1000's coming in. Not a one-on-one replacement but seat wise it isn't a gigantic downgrade, but much more fuel efficient than an A380 of course. I know they have old 744's flying around, but as far as i know it's for them cheaper to operate since they are company owned and all payed off? Fuel is really cheap at the moment so.... (but I'm not an BA-expert so please don't shoot me down over this. )

The A35K doesn’t have F, the A388 does. And I wouldn’t say that a 125 seats decrease “isn’t gigantic”.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 1:10 pm

Air France has been struggling with profitability for many years now. I think retiring the A380s early might be a wise decision. Though it's unfortunate for the A380 program.
Air France had some A380's effected by the wing root cracking problem. I expect all aircraft effected by this problem and certainly combined with the wiring, to be parted out.
The A380 was screwed by 1) the older gen engines, resulting in higher fuel burn for the required ~8000nm range. And besides this, 2) sizing the wings for a stretch/ the A380F MTOW 650mT. To keep weight low, many weight reduction tricks were applied to the wings. In the end the A380 wing are sized for a 100mT heavier aircraft, but (for the first build standard) their structure isn't strong enough to last long.
But all errors made on the A380 project, have created the Airbus we know today.
Hopefully Air France retires also their A340-200/-300s and orders A330NEO aircraft in a couple of years. That will work for both AF and Airbus.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 2:18 pm

par13del wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
If someone (like BA) can pretty much fill a dozen 380s year around at decent yields they will go until worn out.

Well BA were still operating their Concorde a/c profitably when the OEM decided to end support, so with Airbus ending production, how long do you think they will continue to support the a/c, that is another aspect to be looked at, everyone just assumes Airbus wants to see the A380 slowly fade into the sunset.


I think the assumption is made as Airbus has cashflow positive operations that are bottle necked. They stand to gain a lot more by increasing neo production than faffing around with an aftermarket on a handful of a380 frames.
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Sokes
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 3:05 pm

Quite interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatla ... tic_routes
JFK to CDG 1,159,089 seats/ year. That's average 1588 seats/ direction and day.
Montreal to CDG 1,110,231 seats/ year. That's average 1521 seats/ direction and day.
LA to CDG 558,868 seats/ year. That's average 766 seats/ direction and day.

Including competition only JFK and Montreal justifies a daily A380. But then the flights are short enough to make cargo interesting.
China on the other side is too long for non stop cargo. Also on more than 12 hours flights capital costs matter more, as the plane may have to be parked nine hours/ day or so.
Does anybody send A380 and A330-200 (or B787) on alternate days on city pairs to get capacity right?
Where did AF send it's A380?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 3:23 pm

Sokes wrote:
Quite interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatla ... tic_routes
JFK to CDG 1,159,089 seats/ year. That's average 1588 seats/ direction and day.
Montreal to CDG 1,110,231 seats/ year. That's average 1521 seats/ direction and day.
LA to CDG 558,868 seats/ year. That's average 766 seats/ direction and day.

Including competition only JFK and Montreal justifies a daily A380. But then the flights are short enough to make cargo interesting.
China on the other side is too long for non stop cargo. Also on more than 12 hours flights capital costs matter more, as the plane may have to be parked nine hours/ day or so.
Does anybody send A380 and A330-200 (or B787) on alternate days on city pairs to get capacity right?
Where did AF send it's A380?


The NYC area has been saturated with extra seats to Paris.

Air France
Delta
United
La Compagnie
Norwegian

Air France was probably still taking a hit even with the short hop across the Atlantic.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 4:33 pm

Sokes wrote:
Where did AF send it's A380?

JFK
MIA
LAX
MEX
PVG
JNB
IAD??
I may be missing a couple more.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6908
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 4:54 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Just spit balling but the lift can be pallet sized and can be inserted and removed. Rather than carry the dead weight around. Each cargo hub would have 2 or more.

But it’s all moot since it’s not happening.


That seems problematic if the main deck floor must support the weight of the removable lift as well as any cargo placed on the lift. I assume there needs to be some additional tolerance for the force opposing gravity as the cargo is lifted upwards.

Sokes wrote:
I still believe the A380 can be put to good use where no cargo is desired. That means transpacific.


I'd imagine that transpacific markets see quite high demand for cargo capacity, actually.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 249
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 4:59 pm

marcelh wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:

Ah yeah of course, good additions. QF doesn't have any other 'big' plane on their hands anymore after retiring their last 744's. (They should have gotten the 748's of course :stirthepot: :duck:)

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if BA also flies their A380's to the desert. They have 'only' 12 aircraft and they have 12 A350-1000's coming in. Not a one-on-one replacement but seat wise it isn't a gigantic downgrade, but much more fuel efficient than an A380 of course. I know they have old 744's flying around, but as far as i know it's for them cheaper to operate since they are company owned and all payed off? Fuel is really cheap at the moment so.... (but I'm not an BA-expert so please don't shoot me down over this. )

The A35K doesn’t have F, the A388 does. And I wouldn’t say that a 125 seats decrease “isn’t gigantic”.


Well with current load factors of 25% a 125 seat-decrease is welcome :lol:. There are more airlines that have replaced their larger aircraft with smaller ones, VS replaced its 747's with A350-1000's. Seats decreasing from 455 to 335.
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carljanderson
Posts: 161
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Tue May 26, 2020 6:17 pm

When will AF change the schedules for future bookings? I am curious if the 77W or 359 will replace the LAX A380 flight. Guessing 77W..
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 340
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Wed May 27, 2020 10:42 pm

Their A380s are still in storage right? What will be the fate of these airframes? Going to stay where they are and used as parts sources, or will they all be broken up in Ireland or elsewhere? Given the almost-nonexistent second-hand market, which was made even more-nonexistent by the pandemic, it seems highly unlikely that they will all fly for another airline again.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 12:14 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Their A380s are still in storage right? What will be the fate of these airframes? Going to stay where they are and used as parts sources, or will they all be broken up in Ireland or elsewhere? Given the almost-nonexistent second-hand market, which was made even more-nonexistent by the pandemic, it seems highly unlikely that they will all fly for another airline again.

One of the ex-AF A380s has been flown to Cork, Ireland for scrapping. Others may or may not follow.
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DTWLAX
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 12:32 am

Revelation wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Their A380s are still in storage right? What will be the fate of these airframes? Going to stay where they are and used as parts sources, or will they all be broken up in Ireland or elsewhere? Given the almost-nonexistent second-hand market, which was made even more-nonexistent by the pandemic, it seems highly unlikely that they will all fly for another airline again.

One of the ex-AF A380s has been flown to Cork, Ireland for scrapping. Others may or may not follow.

I believe that is F-HPJB that was retired in November 2019 but made a couple of commercial flights late December/early January before being flown to Cork.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 1:00 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Revelation wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Their A380s are still in storage right? What will be the fate of these airframes? Going to stay where they are and used as parts sources, or will they all be broken up in Ireland or elsewhere? Given the almost-nonexistent second-hand market, which was made even more-nonexistent by the pandemic, it seems highly unlikely that they will all fly for another airline again.

One of the ex-AF A380s has been flown to Cork, Ireland for scrapping. Others may or may not follow.

I believe that is F-HPJB that was retired in November 2019 but made a couple of commercial flights late December/early January before being flown to Cork.


It was indeed F-HPJB, it flew some commercial flights in an all white scheme but was flew it’s last flight right before the new year.
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FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 1:03 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Where did AF send it's A380?

JFK
MIA
LAX
MEX
PVG
JNB
IAD??
I may be missing a couple more.


ABJ
SFO

And more recently...
DXB (during runway works?)
ATL
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 1:07 am

JFKalumni wrote:
The NYC area has been saturated with extra seats to Paris.

Air France
Delta
United
La Compagnie
Norwegian

Air France was probably still taking a hit even with the short hop across the Atlantic.


Its actually more than that.
Air France
Delta
United
American
La compagnie
Norwegian
Corsair
French Bee
Level
(XL airways but they went out of business)

The amount of LCCs in the market is just insane yet AF was still sending 2x daily A380. No wonder it would only cost 260€ for a return ticket, gotta fill the plane somehow. I bet they are still bleeding money on the route.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1072
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 1:19 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:

The amount of LCCs in the market is just insane yet AF was still sending 2x daily A380.

2x daily A380?
I thought only AF6/AF7 was operated by the A380. Everything else a mix of A330, B772, B77W
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 11:25 am

I think the second set was AF10/AF11
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 11:38 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I think the second set was AF10/AF11


No until the winter schedule AF10/11 were A380's daily.

Now that the aviation world is turned on it's head, I think it's OK to stay that that JFK T1 was not the ideal terminal for the A380. Just two JetWays and crowded terminal, instead of 3 at CDG, along with LH400/401 and KE's A380's, we struggled to keep boarding to the same order standards as the the 772/77W's and occasionally the 789 for AF8/9.

Going to miss her spacious and quiet cabin.
JFK Friendly
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 11:51 pm

adambrau wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I think the second set was AF10/AF11


No until the winter schedule AF10/11 were A380's daily.

Now that the aviation world is turned on it's head, I think it's OK to stay that that JFK T1 was not the ideal terminal for the A380. Just two JetWays and crowded terminal, instead of 3 at CDG, along with LH400/401 and KE's A380's, we struggled to keep boarding to the same order standards as the the 772/77W's and occasionally the 789 for AF8/9.

Going to miss her spacious and quiet cabin.


JFK T1 has several A380 gates. You just have to be careful and tow the whale into the gate. Gate 5 was dangerous because the nose of the aircraft was as only a few feet away from the terminal building.

Also you were forced to push the plane all the way onto the taxiway because the ramp alleyways were too small to spin it 180 degrees.

As far as the concourse is concerned, the building is old but it did the job.
 
adambrau
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
adambrau wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I think the second set was AF10/AF11


No until the winter schedule AF10/11 were A380's daily.

Now that the aviation world is turned on it's head, I think it's OK to stay that that JFK T1 was not the ideal terminal for the A380. Just two JetWays and crowded terminal, instead of 3 at CDG, along with LH400/401 and KE's A380's, we struggled to keep boarding to the same order standards as the the 772/77W's and occasionally the 789 for AF8/9.

Going to miss her spacious and quiet cabin.


JFK T1 has several A380 gates. You just have to be careful and tow the whale into the gate. Gate 5 was dangerous because the nose of the aircraft was as only a few feet away from the terminal building.

Also you were forced to push the plane all the way onto the taxiway because the ramp alleyways were too small to spin it 180 degrees.

As far as the concourse is concerned, the building is old but it did the job.


At AF our aim is going above 'the job' ;)
JFK Friendly
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1428
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 1:04 am

As far as the support required for the A380, AF purpose built an entire hangar, with spots for an additional A380 hangar on either side that were never built. I saw the blueprints once, but you can see it on a satellite map application.....i just can't figure out how to add a picture.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 2:58 am

CDG Terminal 2E Hall M is surely going to look different going forward. Especially in the morning at the eastern side of Hall M (even numbered gates) when it was normal to see 4-5 A380s parked next to each other getting ready to fly to LAX, JFK, MEX, MIA, etc.
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