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marcelh
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 5:38 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
The NYC area has been saturated with extra seats to Paris.

Air France
Delta
United
La Compagnie
Norwegian

Air France was probably still taking a hit even with the short hop across the Atlantic.


Its actually more than that.
Air France
Delta
United
American
La compagnie
Norwegian
Corsair
French Bee
Level
(XL airways but they went out of business)

The amount of LCCs in the market is just insane yet AF was still sending 2x daily A380. No wonder it would only cost 260€ for a return ticket, gotta fill the plane somehow. I bet they are still bleeding money on the route.

It’s part of the AF-KL/DL joint venture, so it can make sense to flood a route with seats to undermine a competitor. Lot of people are obsessed with a single route without knowing the bigger picture.
 
APYu
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 8:54 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If someone (like BA) can pretty much fill a dozen 380s year around at decent yields they will go until worn out.


BA won’t be able to fill their dozen 380s year round for 3/4 years (according to BAs own predictions on traffic levels). They are staying, as JNB / SIN / LAX are seen to need them, but they won’t need 12 going forward.
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Vladex wrote:
VV wrote:

Those ten A380 do not need cleaning because they go directly to storage.


I am sure they will rather store it than clean it

You guys may have missed the joke there.
I think the poster was referring to the dirty exteriors of most of the AF planes.


This stereotype hasn't been true for a decade or so. The Air France Grime is no more common than it's counterparts on LH, KL, BA and IB. Time for a new meme.

Opus99 wrote:
How you just compared the 380 to the 777X blows my mind. Which is all the problems it entails? Are you the flight engineer?


Very limited customer base: :checkmark:

No larger or smaller sibling to gain fleet synergies off (believe all you like but the 777-8 is dead): :checkmark:

Difficult (ie expensive) to finance: :checkmark:

Very heavy on a per-passenger basis compared to competitors: :checkmark:

Over-optimised for ULH flights: :checkmark:

JFKalumni wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I've moved on to freight now, not passenger traffic.


Guys don’t understand that even with an A380 at a reduced price your still dealing with high operating cost and higher IRROPS costs as well. I can burn $60 million on station GSE equipment.

Elephant beta force air plus deicers $2 million
Douglas TBL-600/800 supertugs $1.5 to $2million

Plus everything else on my list times that by multiple stations that need this support equipment.

$60 million for the plane
$100 million plus to get everything up and running


All of which is sunk costs, unless new operator is planning on flying A380 to airports which haven't previously had A380s operate there.

A.net like to make a big song and dance about A380 related infrastructure costs but the reality is that for most airports this is money which was spend long ago - usually more than a decade ago and hence irrelevant at this point. Heck even NCE has had an A380 gate for three years.

I think the only real laggard was HNL and NH was operating their A380s there just fine.

In past A380 threads, certain members kept trying to suggest that you could only operate an A380 with a new, specially built gate. Most people can see that's hot air.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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adambrau
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 11:45 am

JFKalumni wrote:
adambrau wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I think the second set was AF10/AF11


No until the winter schedule AF10/11 were A380's daily.

Now that the aviation world is turned on it's head, I think it's OK to stay that that JFK T1 was not the ideal terminal for the A380. Just two JetWays and crowded terminal, instead of 3 at CDG, along with LH400/401 and KE's A380's, we struggled to keep boarding to the same order standards as the the 772/77W's and occasionally the 789 for AF8/9.

Going to miss her spacious and quiet cabin.


JFK T1 has several A380 gates. You just have to be careful and tow the whale into the gate. Gate 5 was dangerous because the nose of the aircraft was as only a few feet away from the terminal building.

Also you were forced to push the plane all the way onto the taxiway because the ramp alleyways were too small to spin it 180 degrees.

As far as the concourse is concerned, the building is old but it did the job.


Sorry I meant JFK T1 only has two jet bridges max for an A380, whereas other airports usually have 3. It makes the boarding process messy. We have Gates 5 and 8 which can handle A380's, and maybe Gate 7? I think that is it. Maybe on the ramp it is easier to load bags and cargo, but the T1 for A380 departures was not pleasant for the pax experience....
JFK Friendly
 
Opus99
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 12:44 pm

zkojq wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Vladex wrote:

I am sure they will rather store it than clean it

You guys may have missed the joke there.
I think the poster was referring to the dirty exteriors of most of the AF planes.


This stereotype hasn't been true for a decade or so. The Air France Grime is no more common than it's counterparts on LH, KL, BA and IB. Time for a new meme.

Opus99 wrote:
How you just compared the 380 to the 777X blows my mind. Which is all the problems it entails? Are you the flight engineer?


Very limited customer base: :checkmark:

No larger or smaller sibling to gain fleet synergies off (believe all you like but the 777-8 is dead): :checkmark:

Difficult (ie expensive) to finance: :checkmark:

Very heavy on a per-passenger basis compared to competitors: :checkmark:

Over-optimised for ULH flights: :checkmark:

JFKalumni wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I've moved on to freight now, not passenger traffic.


Guys don’t understand that even with an A380 at a reduced price your still dealing with high operating cost and higher IRROPS costs as well. I can burn $60 million on station GSE equipment.

Elephant beta force air plus deicers $2 million
Douglas TBL-600/800 supertugs $1.5 to $2million

Plus everything else on my list times that by multiple stations that need this support equipment.

$60 million for the plane
$100 million plus to get everything up and running


All of which is sunk costs, unless new operator is planning on flying A380 to airports which haven't previously had A380s operate there.

A.net like to make a big song and dance about A380 related infrastructure costs but the reality is that for most airports this is money which was spend long ago - usually more than a decade ago and hence irrelevant at this point. Heck even NCE has had an A380 gate for three years.

I think the only real laggard was HNL and NH was operating their A380s there just fine.

In past A380 threads, certain members kept trying to suggest that you could only operate an A380 with a new, specially built gate. Most people can see that's hot air.

A whole load of rubbish here but I’ll just reply to mine
Most of which is incorrect
1. Difficult to finance? That’s why BA told Airbus the 380 was way to expensive. Couldn’t order more than 12 and then went on to secure up to 42 aircrafts. Or the fact that everyone has ordered more 777Xs than they have the 380. Last I checked I think QR ordered 6 times more than they did the 380, I think ANA about 6 times more as well LH orderd about 6 more drames than the 380 with options for 14 more, so clearly that’s rubbish

Heavy per passenger? What does that even mean? Do you mean fuel burn because you know that it will probably burn less fuel per passenger compared to competition. I admit not a trip bais because it’s obviously heavier. No one expect is to burn less fuel on a trip basis compared to the A35K including Boeing and the customers that bought it.

The -9 does not need a smaller sibling to create synergies, the 77W And 787 is extremely popular it will be a lot easier to comportante the 777x into your fleet both operationally and practically. The 380 we had rebuild airports around it? Come on like what is this argument you’re making it’s so weak.

Okay the -8 is over optimised for ULH not the -9 so if you don’t need it then don’t get it

Look the 380 came and failed. It was an amazing piece of engineering And delivered innovations for aircraft interiors and kudos to the Airbus team but economically and operationally it failed and in this industry that is what is paramount.

Now the A350 is a fantastic aircraft and that’s where Airbus should’ve put their money a long time ago and that’s just facts. If you argued with me about the 350 I would have a tough time because it is great. But please don’t bring the 380 here to start comparing with an aircraft that’s 150 seats smaller than it. It’s a desperate attempt to pull one down simply because the 380 is going down and you want Boeing’s largest aircraft to go down with it when it hasn’t even entered service compared to an aircraft of over 10 years
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20008
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 12:45 pm

zkojq wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Vladex wrote:

I am sure they will rather store it than clean it

You guys may have missed the joke there.
I think the poster was referring to the dirty exteriors of most of the AF planes.


This stereotype hasn't been true for a decade or so. The Air France Grime is no more common than it's counterparts on LH, KL, BA and IB. Time for a new meme.

Opus99 wrote:
How you just compared the 380 to the 777X blows my mind. Which is all the problems it entails? Are you the flight engineer?


Very limited customer base: :checkmark:

No larger or smaller sibling to gain fleet synergies off (believe all you like but the 777-8 is dead): :checkmark:

Difficult (ie expensive) to finance: :checkmark:

Very heavy on a per-passenger basis compared to competitors: :checkmark:

Over-optimised for ULH flights: :checkmark:

JFKalumni wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I've moved on to freight now, not passenger traffic.


Guys don’t understand that even with an A380 at a reduced price your still dealing with high operating cost and higher IRROPS costs as well. I can burn $60 million on station GSE equipment.

Elephant beta force air plus deicers $2 million
Douglas TBL-600/800 supertugs $1.5 to $2million

Plus everything else on my list times that by multiple stations that need this support equipment.

$60 million for the plane
$100 million plus to get everything up and running


All of which is sunk costs, unless new operator is planning on flying A380 to airports which haven't previously had A380s operate there.

A.net like to make a big song and dance about A380 related infrastructure costs but the reality is that for most airports this is money which was spend long ago - usually more than a decade ago and hence irrelevant at this point. Heck even NCE has had an A380 gate for three years.

I think the only real laggard was HNL and NH was operating their A380s there just fine.

In past A380 threads, certain members kept trying to suggest that you could only operate an A380 with a new, specially built gate. Most people can see that's hot air.

Many if the costs were also to expand capacity. LAX was looking for any excuse to put in taxiways between runways and rebuild the runways (they were coming due).

ATL needed to add more room at the turnouts, but they did extra to allow other aircraft to have much faster taxi speeds (improve throughput).

Some airports had no cost (were A380 ready as is) other than painting their double bridge gates.

The lack of volume killed the A380 and that is because its economics weren't great enough vs. PiP'd 777.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1862
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 12:56 pm

ScottB wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The A380 was a symbol of what a united Europe could achieve -- the world's largest passenger airliner, a new Queen of the Skies. .


Waste of time and money. Money would have been better spent on developing a workable Concorde v2
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
NassAir
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 1:49 pm

From TERUEL Ground, here is the approach & landing of some Air France A380 at Tarmac Aerosave Facilities

impressive to see the approach when no ATC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qs_dTFfLpY
NSH
 
Vladex
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 2:26 pm

So much non sense about A380 as usual. How is A380 somehow hard to fill but 2 of A350 and 4 of A321 are easy to fill? If demand is low so is the fuel price. How can demand for oil be low and price of it high to be expensive to operate?

Refurbishments are normal price like any other model maybe more timely, ask Qantas who is now finishing the refurbishment of their A380's.
All airlines should just fly A350 and 787 and then they won`t lose money or will they? Look at Norwegian, Qatar, Etihad, Cathay, Kuwait, Air india and all the others who are the biggest losers. Of those, Only QR and EY have about 10 of A380's each and if you think A380 is the their major or only problem you have a derangement syndrome.

All airlines should invest in frequency to have 900 jets like Delta and AA? But then when downturn comes you can't park park them, they have so many models, so many differing interests and so many hubs to upkeep, make it impossible to renew and standardize and market.

A380 is like any other jet in most ways , it was a foundational success for Emirates and Singapore who had the biggest number. It made them into a brand and without A380 they will lose the brand, prestige and money in the end. It was neutral and troublesome for others maybe because not enough numbers, commitment and ideas. It just wasn't developed nearly enough like A320 and A330 were and development is the key As Boeing has found out the hard way, you don't want to be stuck with a dead end model , no matter how successful it was before and if you do , then you become dead.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4319
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 2:29 pm

Opus99 wrote:
A whole load of rubbish here but I’ll just reply to mine
Most of which is incorrect


1. Difficult to finance? That’s why BA told Airbus the 380 was way to expensive.


You'll note I didn't argue that the A380 wasn't expensive/difficult to finance. The implication that the 777X had many of the bad similarities of the A380 was quite clear, including difficulties to finance.

How many orders does the 777X have from lessors? Zero, meanwhile the 787 and A350 have substantial order portfolios from lessors. Who is going to do a SLB deal with an airline for a 777X for any kind of reasonable rate when the customer base is so limit - you'll have exactly the same issue as with the A380 whereby lessors are stuck with an aircraft they can't move at the end of the lease. What if a customer terminates a lease prematurely (ie like what AF is doing to their A380 fleet) where will the customer base be? Lessors would much rather finance an aircraft for which there is a wide operator base and thus a liquid secondary market. A liquid market means low risk. Being the biggest on the market, both the A380 and 777X will naturally have less operators and thus be difficult to finance.

Opus99 wrote:
Couldn’t order more than 12 and then went on to secure up to 42 aircrafts. Or the fact that everyone has ordered more 777Xs than they have the 380.


Opus99 wrote:
Last I checked I think QR ordered 6 times more than they did the 380, I think ANA about 6 times more as well LH orderd about 6 more drames than the 380 with options for 14 more, so clearly that’s rubbish


I never argued that and it's a terrible point you're trying to make. Do you mean to say that larger aircraft have less orders than smaller aircraft? Mind blowing!

Opus99 wrote:
Heavy per passenger? What does that even mean? Do you mean fuel burn because you know that it will probably burn less fuel per passenger compared to competition. I admit not a trip bais because it’s obviously heavier. No one expect is to burn less fuel on a trip basis compared to the A35K including Boeing and the customers that bought it.


The 777-9 was designed to be able to fly from DXB on a ridiculously hot day all the way to West Coast US with a full payload - a mission far beyond nearly all long haul flying. It is optimized for ULH operations. It is carrying more structure (weight) than it needs in the form of that enormous wing. For non ULH missions a 787-10 or A350-1000 is much better optimized.

Similar with the A380 which is carrying around far more wing structure than it actually needs for the -800. Hence it is heavier, draggier and burns more fuel.

Opus99 wrote:
The -9 does not need a smaller sibling to create synergies,


What are you even trying to say here? The A350 and 787 actually do have families which airlines order multiple variants of creating operational efficiencies. The A380 didn't and thus was an oddball - not good for the beancounters.

Opus99 wrote:
787 is extremely popular it will be a lot easier to comportante the 777x into your fleet both operationally and practically.


:roll: That's like trying to argue that the A350 and A380 have synergies. But by all means, have at it if you want to.

Opus99 wrote:
The 380 we had rebuild airports around it? Come on like what is this argument you’re making it’s so weak.


Maybe try cutting the snark and reading what I actually wrote?

Opus99 wrote:
Okay the -8 is over optimised for ULH not the -9 so if you don’t need it then don’t get it


Well that's exactly the issue, isn't it. Emirates have realised that they don't need it for a lot of missions and hence the conversion to the far more optimised for mid haul flying 787-9. Cathay Pacific seems to be thinking the same and wanting to convert their order to 787-10s. Lufthansa seemed to be getting cold feet right from the start and now rumours suggest that they would like to convert some portion of their order to freighters.

Opus99 wrote:
It’s a desperate attempt to pull one down simply because the 380 is going down and you want Boeing’s largest aircraft to go down with it when it hasn’t even entered service compared to an aircraft of over 10 years

My wants are irrelevant. The market is speaking and it doesn't look like it's going to be an easy ride for the 777x.
First to fly the 787-9
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 4:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Where is the predictive maintenance (that will save more money than new engines).

Lightsaber


That's a very bold statement. Would love to see the analysis on that one given the predictive maintenance is still fairly new. Also, how can you make such a statement not knowing what percentage fuel burn increase would be achieved nor what fuel prices will be in the future (long term the trend would presumably be higher prices)? Given the massive fuel burn on this huge airplane, a small percentage increase could pay for a re-engine program a la DC-8-71/73, KC135R, and C-5M (admittedly those had double digit percentage increases). None of which is to say that I think, or ever thought, that the A380 was a good idea. I'm just taking exception to that statement.
 
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Web500sjc
Posts: 859
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 4:31 pm

Vladex wrote:
So much non sense about A380 as usual. How is A380 somehow hard to fill but 2 of A350 and 4 of A321 are easy to fill? If demand is low so is the fuel price. How can demand for oil be low and price of it high to be expensive to operate?

Refurbishments are normal price like any other model maybe more timely, ask Qantas who is now finishing the refurbishment of their A380's.
All airlines should just fly A350 and 787 and then they won`t lose money or will they? Look at Norwegian, Qatar, Etihad, Cathay, Kuwait, Air india and all the others who are the biggest losers. Of those, Only QR and EY have about 10 of A380's each and if you think A380 is the their major or only problem you have a derangement syndrome.

All airlines should invest in frequency to have 900 jets like Delta and AA? But then when downturn comes you can't park park them, they have so many models, so many differing interests and so many hubs to upkeep, make it impossible to renew and standardize and market.


Generally the opportunity to fly 2x77W on different routes, or cancel 1 of the daily frequencies, or offer different departure times makes it easier to fill a 77W. Sure you have to find a similar amount of people to fill the plane, but you have more opportunities to offer and more options to tailor the service to the market size.

A380 is like any other jet in most ways , it was a foundational success for Emirates and Singapore who had the biggest number. It made them into a brand and without A380 they will lose the brand, prestige and money in the end. It was neutral and troublesome for others maybe because not enough numbers, commitment and ideas. It just wasn't developed nearly enough like A320 and A330 were and development is the key As Boeing has found out the hard way, you don't want to be stuck with a dead end model , no matter how successful it was before and if you do , then you become dead.


I would only call it a foundation for EK only. The A380 has a higher percentage of the fleet at EK than any other airline, and EK has far far more A380s than anyone else. SQ has the second most, but the A380 is more of a niche rather than a backbone at SQ. Similar to most other A380 operators - the 380 only fills in on high capacity routes With a large premium demand.


One of the best use cases is LAX-SYD- very limited acceptable departure times (all 5 flights depart within 1 hour of each other in both directions), long distance, high “luxury” demand . Compared to JFK-LHR, large departure window, shorter distance, minimal “luxury” demand- the A380 only adds luxury and bargain basement seats to a frequency driven market.


It’s a shame that the A380 is not successful, it is a very nice aircraft, but smaller planes are much more nimble and can command a higher fare premium for the extra frequency and niche market.
Boiler Up!
 
ethernal
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 4:42 pm

Vladex wrote:
So much non sense about A380 as usual. How is A380 somehow hard to fill but 2 of A350 and 4 of A321 are easy to fill? If demand is low so is the fuel price. How can demand for oil be low and price of it high to be expensive to operate?


You're right, the fact that the A380s are being retired en masse is just nonsense. Those airline fleet planners just don't know the facts.

It's not about filling a plane. It's about filling a plane at good yields. And for that, frequency matters. In addition, matching capacity to demand matters. If I have all A380s, then I either fly either 0 A380s, 1 A380, or 2 A380s. Those are massive differences. An A350 gives much more granularity as your unit of scale relative to an A380 at comparable CASMs for many flight profiles.

The larger the plane, the harder this is. Sometimes a larger plane makes sense if it has dramatically lower CASM. But unfortunately the A380 does not have dramatically lower CASM, especially as configured by most airlines. It is, at best, comparable or slightly better than a typically configured 77W. I know people will say that is unfair because 77W are generally configured more densely - which is 100% true - but the denser the A380 is configured, the more challenges you have with the statements I made above.

As a general statement, A380s are used on connecting trunk routes, not nonstop routes. This makes frequency matter even more. Of course there is banking to help ease connections, but banking is imperfect. If I can fly 4-5 flights a day as opposed to 1-2 flights a day to/from a destination, the likelihood of having a desirable connection increases dramatically. And guess what people like? They prefer shorter trips. I know some people here like to stretch out their legs and hang around and watch planes at airports, but that is the exception - not the rule. If I can have a 2 hour connection over an 8 hour connection, I'll take that every time. This - in addition to departure flexibility - is why frequency drives higher yields.
 
Opus99
Posts: 978
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 5:26 pm

zkojq wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
A whole load of rubbish here but I’ll just reply to mine
Most of which is incorrect


1. Difficult to finance? That’s why BA told Airbus the 380 was way to expensive.


You'll note I didn't argue that the A380 wasn't expensive/difficult to finance. The implication that the 777X had many of the bad similarities of the A380 was quite clear, including difficulties to finance.

How many orders does the 777X have from lessors? Zero, meanwhile the 787 and A350 have substantial order portfolios from lessors. Who is going to do a SLB deal with an airline for a 777X for any kind of reasonable rate when the customer base is so limit - you'll have exactly the same issue as with the A380 whereby lessors are stuck with an aircraft they can't move at the end of the lease. What if a customer terminates a lease prematurely (ie like what AF is doing to their A380 fleet) where will the customer base be? Lessors would much rather finance an aircraft for which there is a wide operator base and thus a liquid secondary market. A liquid market means low risk. Being the biggest on the market, both the A380 and 777X will naturally have less operators and thus be difficult to finance.

Opus99 wrote:
Couldn’t order more than 12 and then went on to secure up to 42 aircrafts. Or the fact that everyone has ordered more 777Xs than they have the 380.


Opus99 wrote:
Last I checked I think QR ordered 6 times more than they did the 380, I think ANA about 6 times more as well LH orderd about 6 more drames than the 380 with options for 14 more, so clearly that’s rubbish


I never argued that and it's a terrible point you're trying to make. Do you mean to say that larger aircraft have less orders than smaller aircraft? Mind blowing!

Opus99 wrote:
Heavy per passenger? What does that even mean? Do you mean fuel burn because you know that it will probably burn less fuel per passenger compared to competition. I admit not a trip bais because it’s obviously heavier. No one expect is to burn less fuel on a trip basis compared to the A35K including Boeing and the customers that bought it.


The 777-9 was designed to be able to fly from DXB on a ridiculously hot day all the way to West Coast US with a full payload - a mission far beyond nearly all long haul flying. It is optimized for ULH operations. It is carrying more structure (weight) than it needs in the form of that enormous wing. For non ULH missions a 787-10 or A350-1000 is much better optimized.

Similar with the A380 which is carrying around far more wing structure than it actually needs for the -800. Hence it is heavier, draggier and burns more fuel.

Opus99 wrote:
The -9 does not need a smaller sibling to create synergies,


What are you even trying to say here? The A350 and 787 actually do have families which airlines order multiple variants of creating operational efficiencies. The A380 didn't and thus was an oddball - not good for the beancounters.

Opus99 wrote:
787 is extremely popular it will be a lot easier to comportante the 777x into your fleet both operationally and practically.


:roll: That's like trying to argue that the A350 and A380 have synergies. But by all means, have at it if you want to.

Opus99 wrote:
The 380 we had rebuild airports around it? Come on like what is this argument you’re making it’s so weak.


Maybe try cutting the snark and reading what I actually wrote?

Opus99 wrote:
Okay the -8 is over optimised for ULH not the -9 so if you don’t need it then don’t get it


Well that's exactly the issue, isn't it. Emirates have realised that they don't need it for a lot of missions and hence the conversion to the far more optimised for mid haul flying 787-9. Cathay Pacific seems to be thinking the same and wanting to convert their order to 787-10s. Lufthansa seemed to be getting cold feet right from the start and now rumours suggest that they would like to convert some portion of their order to freighters.

Opus99 wrote:
It’s a desperate attempt to pull one down simply because the 380 is going down and you want Boeing’s largest aircraft to go down with it when it hasn’t even entered service compared to an aircraft of over 10 years

My wants are irrelevant. The market is speaking and it doesn't look like it's going to be an easy ride for the 777x.

Well at least you didn’t deny the want.

Now which l’essor ordered the 777-300er before it came into service? Which lessors won’t invest till they’re sure of the performance so till 2021/22 you can park that argument

How can you say the 777-9 was optimised to fly between Dubai and the west coast at full load. Have you even seen the range? LOL I think that’s what the -8 was for. It was exactly for ULH. The 777-9 is all about payload and it’s obvious because the -8 was made for ULH.

Your argument about synergies AGAIN is choosing ignore the facts. So do the A330 and A350 not have synergies? Why did you choose to leave that argument out. But let’s even assume they don’t. It’s as much easier aircraft to incorporate int your fleet and you know that. Everything has to work around the 380 from your gates to your taxi ways to the number of crew you need to man the thing. Like come on and let’s not forget the low operating cost of the GE-90 engines that will translate onto the GE9X why are so hot on comparing them

With regard to Emirates from the moment they ordered 150 Everybody knew it was too much same with the A380, they ordered just way too many. Lufthansa have said that the possibility to change is there but they won’t make a decision on that anytime soon, well I assume the later it gets the harder for them to pull out of their first few deliveries. There’s no doubt that the market is not favouring the 777X but for you to flat out assume it will face the same fate as the 380 is really off given the 380 came and was unable to prove itself. If the 777X comes and it proves itself to be a fantastic aircraft just like the A350-1000 then I see no reason why it should end up like the 380. Do I think it will sell like the 77W of course not but will it do better than the 380? 1000% like I said Boeing built the 777-9 as a successor to the 777-300er not as a second coming of the A380. The A380 competitor was the 747-8i and it did even worse as a passenger aircraft at least
 
smartplane
Posts: 1508
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Re: Air France to retire A380 fleet effective immediately

Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 pm

Opus99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
A whole load of rubbish here but I’ll just reply to mine
Most of which is incorrect


1. Difficult to finance? That’s why BA told Airbus the 380 was way to expensive.


You'll note I didn't argue that the A380 wasn't expensive/difficult to finance. The implication that the 777X had many of the bad similarities of the A380 was quite clear, including difficulties to finance.

How many orders does the 777X have from lessors? Zero, meanwhile the 787 and A350 have substantial order portfolios from lessors. Who is going to do a SLB deal with an airline for a 777X for any kind of reasonable rate when the customer base is so limit - you'll have exactly the same issue as with the A380 whereby lessors are stuck with an aircraft they can't move at the end of the lease. What if a customer terminates a lease prematurely (ie like what AF is doing to their A380 fleet) where will the customer base be? Lessors would much rather finance an aircraft for which there is a wide operator base and thus a liquid secondary market. A liquid market means low risk. Being the biggest on the market, both the A380 and 777X will naturally have less operators and thus be difficult to finance.

Opus99 wrote:
Couldn’t order more than 12 and then went on to secure up to 42 aircrafts. Or the fact that everyone has ordered more 777Xs than they have the 380.


Opus99 wrote:
Last I checked I think QR ordered 6 times more than they did the 380, I think ANA about 6 times more as well LH orderd about 6 more drames than the 380 with options for 14 more, so clearly that’s rubbish


I never argued that and it's a terrible point you're trying to make. Do you mean to say that larger aircraft have less orders than smaller aircraft? Mind blowing!

Opus99 wrote:
Heavy per passenger? What does that even mean? Do you mean fuel burn because you know that it will probably burn less fuel per passenger compared to competition. I admit not a trip bais because it’s obviously heavier. No one expect is to burn less fuel on a trip basis compared to the A35K including Boeing and the customers that bought it.


The 777-9 was designed to be able to fly from DXB on a ridiculously hot day all the way to West Coast US with a full payload - a mission far beyond nearly all long haul flying. It is optimized for ULH operations. It is carrying more structure (weight) than it needs in the form of that enormous wing. For non ULH missions a 787-10 or A350-1000 is much better optimized.

Similar with the A380 which is carrying around far more wing structure than it actually needs for the -800. Hence it is heavier, draggier and burns more fuel.

Opus99 wrote:
The -9 does not need a smaller sibling to create synergies,


What are you even trying to say here? The A350 and 787 actually do have families which airlines order multiple variants of creating operational efficiencies. The A380 didn't and thus was an oddball - not good for the beancounters.

Opus99 wrote:
787 is extremely popular it will be a lot easier to comportante the 777x into your fleet both operationally and practically.


:roll: That's like trying to argue that the A350 and A380 have synergies. But by all means, have at it if you want to.

Opus99 wrote:
The 380 we had rebuild airports around it? Come on like what is this argument you’re making it’s so weak.


Maybe try cutting the snark and reading what I actually wrote?

Opus99 wrote:
Okay the -8 is over optimised for ULH not the -9 so if you don’t need it then don’t get it


Well that's exactly the issue, isn't it. Emirates have realised that they don't need it for a lot of missions and hence the conversion to the far more optimised for mid haul flying 787-9. Cathay Pacific seems to be thinking the same and wanting to convert their order to 787-10s. Lufthansa seemed to be getting cold feet right from the start and now rumours suggest that they would like to convert some portion of their order to freighters.

Opus99 wrote:
It’s a desperate attempt to pull one down simply because the 380 is going down and you want Boeing’s largest aircraft to go down with it when it hasn’t even entered service compared to an aircraft of over 10 years

My wants are irrelevant. The market is speaking and it doesn't look like it's going to be an easy ride for the 777x.

Well at least you didn’t deny the want.

Now which l’essor ordered the 777-300er before it came into service? Which lessors won’t invest till they’re sure of the performance so till 2021/22 you can park that argument

How can you say the 777-9 was optimised to fly between Dubai and the west coast at full load. Have you even seen the range? LOL I think that’s what the -8 was for. It was exactly for ULH. The 777-9 is all about payload and it’s obvious because the -8 was made for ULH.

Your argument about synergies AGAIN is choosing ignore the facts. So do the A330 and A350 not have synergies? Why did you choose to leave that argument out. But let’s even assume they don’t. It’s as much easier aircraft to incorporate int your fleet and you know that. Everything has to work around the 380 from your gates to your taxi ways to the number of crew you need to man the thing. Like come on and let’s not forget the low operating cost of the GE-90 engines that will translate onto the GE9X why are so hot on comparing them

With regard to Emirates from the moment they ordered 150 Everybody knew it was too much same with the A380, they ordered just way too many. Lufthansa have said that the possibility to change is there but they won’t make a decision on that anytime soon, well I assume the later it gets the harder for them to pull out of their first few deliveries. There’s no doubt that the market is not favouring the 777X but for you to flat out assume it will face the same fate as the 380 is really off given the 380 came and was unable to prove itself. If the 777X comes and it proves itself to be a fantastic aircraft just like the A350-1000 then I see no reason why it should end up like the 380. Do I think it will sell like the 77W of course not but will it do better than the 380? 1000% like I said Boeing built the 777-9 as a successor to the 777-300er not as a second coming of the A380. The A380 competitor was the 747-8i and it did even worse as a passenger aircraft at least

Pre-COVID:
How many 2021 delivery X's had been financed? How many financiers and lessors have shouted their involvement from the roof tops? How many first tranche deliveries are unconditional / have been financed? How active is BCC directly financing customers and / or underwriting other financiers?

Post-COVID:
The same questions as above - is the horizon better, the same or worse?

If unconditional orders for smaller, nimble, agile 787, A350 and A320 deliveries are being deferred, milestone payments deferred and extended (some zero interest), and contracts being re-priced (discounted), where does this leave the X?

The glimmer of upside for the X (and even A380), is CORSIA will eventually financially impact frequency and reward the reverse, though as airlines are asking for rollout to be suspended or discounted, who knows when, or even if ever.
 
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adv40624
Posts: 17
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Au revoir: Air France operates its final A380 flight Friday

Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:56 pm

Air France is sending its Airbus A380s off to retirement with little public fanfare. The airline is welcoming staff who used to work the aircraft along for one special final flight, one to which passengers aren’t invited. On Friday, Air France’s final planned A380 flight will take to the skies with just its A380 staff on board. Operating as Air France flight AF380, the aircraft will fly from the airline’s home base at Paris Charles de Gaulle (CDG) and back

https://thepointsguy.com/news/air-franc ... 2020-06-25
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 393
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:10 am

Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:06 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?

As we say in the US there are two chances, slim and none.

AF's decision to retire the aircraft was based on economics: they could not get enough passengers to pay enough money to pay for its costs like fuel, maintenance and new interiors. These decisions were made pre-CV19. Now it's far worse. Any operator with money can get right to the head of the queue at Airbus or Boeing, and has their pick of used airplanes coming off lease or able to be repossessed due to non-payment. The world has far more airplanes than it needs right now, it's a total buyer's market. The problem is that there are no operators with money, and most experts say it'll be 2-3 years before any start being able to make new orders, and that's before we consider the slower than expected world wide recovery and chances of a second wave.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Strato2
Posts: 551
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:26 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?


Of course there is. These are quite new aircraft with plenty of life left in them. The real trouble is with OEM's placing new planes like A35K and 777X when there are used examples for a fraction of the cost.
 
redcap1962
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:26 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:28 pm

The farewell flight should be made by F-HPJH and is about to start at 15:30 loc.
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/foll ... ll-flight/
This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

Eddie Izzard
 
Opus99
Posts: 978
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:37 pm

Strato2 wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?


Of course there is. These are quite new aircraft with plenty of life left in them. The real trouble is with OEM's placing new planes like A35K and 777X when there are used examples for a fraction of the cost.

Please show us this second hand market LOL. This aircraft was one of the best piece of engineering mastery in aviation. But it’s economic prospects are quite poor. I really can’t imagine these aircrafts seeing a second life. Probably used for spare parts at best
 
redcap1962
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:26 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm

redcap1962 wrote:
The farewell flight should be made by F-HPJH and is about to start at 15:30 loc.
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/foll ... ll-flight/


Taxiing now!
This is your pilot speaking. Welcome to flight one from here to there. We'll be flying at a height of ten feet, going up to twelve and a half feet if we see anything big. My copilot today is a flask of coffee.

Eddie Izzard
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:49 pm

Nice goodbye tribute video from AF: https://twitter.com/airfrance/status/12 ... 8517936130
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 384
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 pm

Trying to make a list of destinations that got regularly schedules AF A380 flights. Did I miss any?

North America
JFK, IAD, MIA, ATL, YUL, SFO, LAX, MEX

Africa
ABJ, JNB

Asia
DXB, PVG, HKG, NRT, SIN
 
Bricktop
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?

As we say in the US there are two chances, slim and none.


Muhammad Ali added

And slim just left town.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:27 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?

The second hand market is a grand total of one, to FlyDubai. This aircraft was leased on a power by the hour for remaining green time. The aircraft has barely seen enough demand to justify keeping it.

I'm not aware of any A388 going through the 12 year HMV. Did I miss one?

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2842
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:33 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Trying to make a list of destinations that got regularly schedules AF A380 flights. Did I miss any?

North America
JFK, IAD, MIA, ATL, YUL, SFO, LAX, MEX

Africa
ABJ, JNB

Asia
DXB, PVG, HKG, NRT, SIN


Right here: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... perations/

Paris CDG – Abidjan First flight listed on 28JAN14, followed by regular service from 26OCT14
Paris CDG – Atlanta First flight listed on 12DEC17, followed by regular service from 31MAR19
Paris CDG – Cancun One-off flight on 27NOV13
Paris CDG – Dubai Service operated during following period: 05DEC11 – 24MAR12, 31DEC18 – 27JAN19, 11MAR19 – 17MAR19
Paris CDG – Hong Kong 27MAY14 – 24MAR17
Paris CDG – Johannesburg First flight 17FEB10
Paris CDG – London Heathrow 12JUN10 – 30AUG20 (3 weekly, 4 weekly in July 2010)
Paris CDG – Los Angeles First flight 28MAY12
Paris CDG – Mexico City First flight 12JAN16
Paris CDG – Miami First flight 01DEC14, operating during winter season
Paris CDG – Montreal First flight on 07OCT10, followed by regular service from 22APR11 to 27OCT12
Paris CDG – New York JFK First flight 20NOV09 as AF380, followed by regular service from 23NOV09 as AF006/007
Paris CDG – Rio de Janeiro Galeao One-off flight on 22AUG16
Paris CDG – San Francisco First A380 service in summer 2011 season from 06JUN11 to 04SEP11, followed by regular summer seasonal service from 30MAR14 to 08SEP19. Last A380 San Francisco flight operated as one-off on 22NOV19
Paris CDG – Shanghai Pu Dong 02SEP13 – 22FEB20. AF previously planned to convert A380 Shanghai service to winter seasonal from NW20
Paris CDG – Singapore 01APR12 – 31AUG13
Paris CDG – Tokyo Narita 01SEP10 – 10MAY14
Paris CDG – Washington Dulles First flight 06JUN11, operating as year-round. Service converted to summer seasonal from December 2014
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:38 pm

lightsaber wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?

The second hand market is a grand total of one, to FlyDubai. This aircraft was leased on a power by the hour for remaining green time. The aircraft has barely seen enough demand to justify keeping it.

I'm not aware of any A388 going through the 12 year HMV. Did I miss one?

Lightsaber

FlyDubai, not HiFly?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:37 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
Do we know the eventual fate of their A380s apart from storage? Any chance that any of them will see a second life with another operation, or is it certain that all of them will be scrapped?

The second hand market is a grand total of one, to FlyDubai. This aircraft was leased on a power by the hour for remaining green time. The aircraft has barely seen enough demand to justify keeping it.

I'm not aware of any A388 going through the 12 year HMV. Did I miss one?

Lightsaber

FlyDubai, not HiFly?

HiFly is correct. I don't know what I was thinking when I typed.

But my main point is correct. Resale was only a green time airframe on a power by the hour basis favoring the buyer. At this time, I do not expect HiFly to lease another and I expect their A380 to be retired when a HMV is due.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
Utah744
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: AF retired its first A380

Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:04 am

speedbird52 wrote:
I really want to see a video of A380 scrapping. Imagine the process breaking up such a big aircraft will be!

Like eating an elephant. One bite at a time.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
smartplane
Posts: 1508
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
At this time, I do not expect HiFly to lease another and I expect their A380 to be retired when a HMV is due.

No chance HiFly will lease an AF A380 as these aircraft are not subject to an OEM buyback.
 
moa999
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
At this time, I do not expect HiFly to lease another and I expect their A380 to be retired when a HMV is due.


Possibly before that.
The cerification on the Koito Business seats runs out in August 2021 so a decent capex bill to replace those.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:06 am

Are there any updates yet on the fate of all the frames? Have decisions been made on what will happen to them yet?
 
TYCOON
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Re: Air France A380 retirement/parking thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:36 pm

I flew into CDG yesterday evening (my first post-lockdown flight) and I saw an AF A380 at the gate at Terminal 2E Satellite M. I guess just temporarily stored there. On a slightly separate note, it was a bit sad to see all these AF aircraft parked spread throughout the airport. All planes parked at Terminal 1 were AF widebodies and I saw a number of AF Airbus narrowbodies parked at 2G... Hopefully things will pick up sooner rather than later...
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