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RAGAZZO777
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LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:27 am

LATAM Airlines has decided to increase its offer on the Lima-Miami-Lima route. Effective June 1, 2020, LP will introduce a third daily flight on board the Boeing 767-300ER.

LA2466 LIM0015 – 0705MIA 763 D
LA2460 LIM0830 – 1520MIA 763 D
LA2462 LIM1215 – 1905MIA 763 D

LA2461 MIA0205 – 0644LIM 763 D
LA2463 MIA1542 – 2021LIM 763 D
LA2467 MIA1735 – 2215LIM 763 D


Meanwhile, American Airlines is also adding a third daily flight on the route effective March 29.

Source
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Varsity1
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:36 am

LATAM doesn't have anywhere near the feed AA does.
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RAGAZZO777
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:09 am

Varsity1 wrote:
LATAM doesn't have anywhere near the feed AA does.


That may be true, especially on the US side. The fact is that LATAM will be the carrier offering the largest capacity on the LIM-MIA-LIM route.
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MIflyer12
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:58 am

So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.
 
Antarius
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.


Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with.

So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:45 pm

Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.


Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with.

So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


AA doesn’t make money flying passengers. It profits are entirely attributed to selling miles to banks. It’s airline operations are a consistent money loser.
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DL747400
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:19 pm

Based on comment made by Bastian and Hauenstein, it sounds like they expect the initial DELTA / LATAM codeshare will be in place early in 2020.

Once the initial codeshare is in place, it will be interesting to see what feed is added by DELTA to help support LATAMs existing U.S. services.

Even more interesting will be seeing what new or increased services are added by either/both carriers to/from LATAM hubs and how the feed evolves on both ends as the codesharing expands to include more markets.
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DL747400
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:47 pm

Antarius wrote:
Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with. So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


Except that now LATAM is aligned with the most profitable airline in the world; one that is widely respected throughout the Finance world. I fully expect that DELTA will help LATAM get their house in order over time by sharing insight on how they could better capitalize on the opportunities which exist within the South American market while restructuring their network to focus on feed to/from AF/KL, VS, AM and even KE and WS.
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Cointrin330
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:58 pm

Maybe the folks at AA were happy to let the partnership dissolve. 3 x daily, on a 767-300ER is just way too much capacity. LATAM will have no feed at MIA and on the LIM end, limited feed and certainly not enough to fill 3 wide body jets a day. Clearly these two airlines don't like each other. Enter DELTA, to help turn LATAM around. In the end, I would guess LIM will be served 2 x daily on AA and 1 daily on LATAM with additional frequency on peak days.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Maybe the folks at AA were happy to let the partnership dissolve. 3 x daily, on a 767-300ER is just way too much capacity. LATAM will have no feed at MIA and on the LIM end, limited feed and certainly not enough to fill 3 wide body jets a day. Clearly these two airlines don't like each other. Enter DELTA, to help turn LATAM around. In the end, I would guess LIM will be served 2 x daily on AA and 1 daily on LATAM with additional frequency on peak days.


The local market is in excess of 600k. This is not too much capacity.

These comments are ridiculous. Miami-Lima is an absolutely massive local market and a huge trunk route.
Last edited by MAH4546 on Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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NZ321
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:02 pm

2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.
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NZ321
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:03 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Maybe the folks at AA were happy to let the partnership dissolve. 3 x daily, on a 767-300ER is just way too much capacity. LATAM will have no feed at MIA and on the LIM end, limited feed and certainly not enough to fill 3 wide body jets a day. Clearly these two airlines don't like each other. Enter DELTA, to help turn LATAM around. In the end, I would guess LIM will be served 2 x daily on AA and 1 daily on LATAM with additional frequency on peak days.


The local market is in excess of 600k. This is not too much capacity.

These comments are ridiculous. Miami-Lima is a huge trunk route.


Yes agree. My previous comments are not about capacity. And Lima is a rising star in terms of connectivity and point-to-point in SA.
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MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:05 pm

NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


It allows a full day of work in Miami, and you can get into Lima in the AM for a full day after a nights rest on the plane. Schedule looks good to me. These oddball departure times are popular to/from Latin America. There are even redeyes between Miami and Bogota.
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NZ321
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:06 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with. So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


Except that now LATAM is aligned with the most profitable airline in the world; one that is widely respected throughout the Finance world. I fully expect that DELTA will help LATAM get their house in order over time by sharing insight on how they could better capitalize on the opportunities which exist within the South American market while restructuring their network to focus on feed to/from AF/KL, VS, AM and even KE and WS.


i did not know DL was the most profitable in the world. Do you have evidence? Anyhow, yes, it would be nice if Latam can get their act together but what makes you think DL will share their secrets? You seem to have a game plan, already :)
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usflyer msp
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:36 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with. So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


Except that now LATAM is aligned with the most profitable airline in the world; one that is widely respected throughout the Finance world. I fully expect that DELTA will help LATAM get their house in order over time by sharing insight on how they could better capitalize on the opportunities which exist within the South American market while restructuring their network to focus on feed to/from AF/KL, VS, AM and even KE and WS.


LATAMs management is not stupid or incompetent, I don't why the DL fans think DL management has some sort of superpower that is going magically fix their JV partners problems. LA's problem is not the inability to take advantage of opportunities in SA; their problems stem from an overexposure to unstable South American economies. The DL JV will help them diversify their point-of-sale a bit but beyond that I don't see it being a huge game changer for them (beside gutting their feed in MIA)....
 
OB1504
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:03 pm

AA needs to deploy a 787, A330, or 777 on the route. Their 757s and 767s are decrepit compared to LATAM’s aircraft.

NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


That flight has been operating as a redeye with a departure time after midnight for over a decade. If the yields were bad they would have retimed it by now.

NZ321 wrote:
[Anyhow, yes, it would be nice if Latam can get their act together but what makes you think DL will share their secrets?


Because DL wants to get their money’s worth for their investment and that means they need LA to make money.
 
airlinedork
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:09 pm

NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


b/c clearly DL does awful with its own 02:05 departure to ATL that has operated for maybe 15-20 years? Right.
Last edited by airlinedork on Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airlinedork
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:11 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
LATAM doesn't have anywhere near the feed AA does.


They have plenty of feed in LIM, and will continue to have plenty of feed in MIA after they exit OW.
Last edited by airlinedork on Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:11 pm

NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


LA's main international bank at LIM is between 1130pm and 130am so a 205am to MIA fits right in.
 
golfingboy
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:17 pm

While MIA-LIM is a huge market in its own right I do expect that once the LATAM and DL partnership goes into effect some of LATAM's capacity will shift from MIA to ATL. MIA will be primarily O/D market (which is massive) for LATAM going forward as opposed to a mix of O/D and connecting traffic.

In two years' time I do fully expect LATAM's overall capacity at MIA to shrink modestly (probably no more than 7-14x weekly in total) as they balance between serving the MIA O/D market and making ATL their primary connecting point for other US/Canadian-markets.
 
rbavfan
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:18 pm

NZ321 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with. So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


Except that now LATAM is aligned with the most profitable airline in the world; one that is widely respected throughout the Finance world. I fully expect that DELTA will help LATAM get their house in order over time by sharing insight on how they could better capitalize on the opportunities which exist within the South American market while restructuring their network to focus on feed to/from AF/KL, VS, AM and even KE and WS.


i did not know DL was the most profitable in the world. Do you have evidence? Anyhow, yes, it would be nice if Latam can get their act together but what makes you think DL will share their secrets? You seem to have a game plan, already :)


From the stack market reports last few years it's a good bet.
 
Packson
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:27 pm

golfingboy wrote:
While MIA-LIM is a huge market in its own right I do expect that once the LATAM and DL partnership goes into effect some of LATAM's capacity will shift from MIA to ATL. MIA will be primarily O/D market (which is massive) for LATAM going forward as opposed to a mix of O/D and connecting traffic.

In two years' time I do fully expect LATAM's overall capacity at MIA to shrink modestly (probably no more than 7-14x weekly in total) as they balance between serving the MIA O/D market and making ATL their primary connecting point for other US/Canadian-markets.



Wow, check back in two years, I think your goong to be surprised.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:46 pm

The golden goose is in the oven. This is why the DL move smells like a desperation move by LA. They're betting on JV gains as a whole making up for a significant loss in profitability in its core U.S. network. Good luck with that strategy.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:51 pm

golfingboy wrote:
While MIA-LIM is a huge market in its own right I do expect that once the LATAM and DL partnership goes into effect some of LATAM's capacity will shift from MIA to ATL. MIA will be primarily O/D market (which is massive) for LATAM going forward as opposed to a mix of O/D and connecting traffic.

In two years' time I do fully expect LATAM's overall capacity at MIA to shrink modestly (probably no more than 7-14x weekly in total) as they balance between serving the MIA O/D market and making ATL their primary connecting point for other US/Canadian-markets.


That’s a ridiculous statement. They aren’t going to overfly where most the capacity is going. LATAM is the largest foreign airline at MIA and will only grow its operations at the airport, not shrink.
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jfk777
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:20 pm

OB1504 wrote:
AA needs to deploy a 787, A330, or 777 on the route. Their 757s and 767s are decrepit compared to LATAM’s aircraft.

NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


That flight has been operating as a redeye with a departure time after midnight for over a decade. If the yields were bad they would have retimed it by now.

NZ321 wrote:
[Anyhow, yes, it would be nice if Latam can get their act together but what makes you think DL will share their secrets?


Because DL wants to get their money’s worth for their investment and that means they need LA to make money.


AA has far better uses for their 777 & 787 fleets than a 5 hour flight which will not fill a 777 J class with Paying Passengers. Lima - Miami is an important route in their Latin system which was well served by the A300 AA used to have. AA needs a 250-300 passenger people mover for shorter dense flights like LIM to MIA.

AS far as LATAM, three 767 with 3 AA flights is a lot of capacity, they will either prove the victors or cut back the number of flights. The 757 & 767 to Latin America will likely be replaced by the A321LR, unfortunately for Latin America its AA's plane graveyard.
 
DominoxX
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:24 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.


Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with.

So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


AA doesn’t make money flying passengers. It profits are entirely attributed to selling miles to banks. It’s airline operations are a consistent money loser.


Is there any way I look more into this? I'm a BBA student so I'd love to delve into this
Thank u, next.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:28 pm

LATAM and Delta are looking to provide actual competition on this route, AA survives because of connectivity and no other options. AA operated poorly configured aircraft/service on this route while LATAM provides a decent product.
 
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chepos
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LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:12 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
LATAM and Delta are looking to provide actual competition on this route, AA survives because of connectivity and no other options. AA operated poorly configured aircraft/service on this route while LATAM provides a decent product.


LATAM/AA have been competing on the route for years. They may have been OW partners, but they were still competitors. Had they been granted JV approval they would have operated as one. Until then they were competitors.

Question, have you ever flown LATAM? I have flown them a few times and they are a mixed bag.


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golfingboy
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:19 am

MAH4546 wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
While MIA-LIM is a huge market in its own right I do expect that once the LATAM and DL partnership goes into effect some of LATAM's capacity will shift from MIA to ATL. MIA will be primarily O/D market (which is massive) for LATAM going forward as opposed to a mix of O/D and connecting traffic.

In two years' time I do fully expect LATAM's overall capacity at MIA to shrink modestly (probably no more than 7-14x weekly in total) as they balance between serving the MIA O/D market and making ATL their primary connecting point for other US/Canadian-markets.


That’s a ridiculous statement. They aren’t going to overfly where most the capacity is going. LATAM is the largest foreign airline at MIA and will only grow its operations at the airport, not shrink.


We will see what happens in the next 12-18 months. Certainly 100% of the capacity isn't going to MIA. Do you want to continue offering X amount of the capacity to a given market when 10-15% of that capacity are trying to go to places like ORD/DFW/IAH/DCA or re-allocate resources to push that 10-15% to an airport that will provide seamless 1 stop connections? The partnership change (I think DL is better for LATAM IMHO) won't have a massive impact on how LATAM serves the US market on a macro level but the dynamics will be different. I'd be surprised if LATAM does not change a single thing in their US route network.

There is a reason AF/KL/KE/VS all fly a ton of capacity to ATL alongside DL even overflying some of their largest US markets (i.e. NYC/WAS/BOS). I fail to see how LATAM will be any different in this regard.

Besides LATAM Chile, all of the other subsidiaries will not see any growth in their wide body fleet in the short term. Either make small adjustments or push all non-NYC/Northeast/MIA customers to DL. I don't think some LATAM HVCs who do not fly to those three markets will be happy being forced to double connect or fly DL on the longhaul sector.

The next 12-18 months will be interesting in this arena.
Last edited by golfingboy on Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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N62NA
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:21 am

MAH4546 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


It allows a full day of work in Miami, and you can get into Lima in the AM for a full day after a nights rest on the plane. Schedule looks good to me. These oddball departure times are popular to/from Latin America. There are even redeyes between Miami and Bogota.



I suppose a robot could do a full day's work, fly overnight on a 5 hour flight, land in the morning and then put in another "full day's work" the next day.
 
jfk777
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:43 am

Whatever changes Delta and Latam make it's not in Miami or JFK but how to handle the connecting traffic. Will LATAM fly to Atlanta or any Delta hub? Maybe a great use of some of the ex-TAM 777 could be from GRU to ATL.

OF all the things written about this Joint Venture, most agree JFK & MIA will not change much. IT's the changes outside the traditional North American Latin gateways where this becomes an interesting topic. With Delta making such a bold move and investment, lets see some bold innovative flights by LATAM, Delta has already done all the bold Atlanta to Latin America things. It would be sad if LATAM never sees Georgia.
 
Antarius
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:16 am

MAH4546 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.


Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with.

So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


AA doesn’t make money flying passengers. It profits are entirely attributed to selling miles to banks. It’s airline operations are a consistent money loser.


This is true and why I mentioned AA being "Mickey mouse"; they are far from the standard of excellence in operations and making money.

Despite that, they do better than LATAM, which is why there is warranted skepticism about this decision to LIM.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Seat1F
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:35 am

N62NA wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
2.05 AM is quite out there for a departure. Good luck with the yields.


It allows a full day of work in Miami, and you can get into Lima in the AM for a full day after a nights rest on the plane. Schedule looks good to me. These oddball departure times are popular to/from Latin America. There are even redeyes between Miami and Bogota.



I suppose a robot could do a full day's work, fly overnight on a 5 hour flight, land in the morning and then put in another "full day's work" the next day.


So true. No-one is going to do what MAH4546 suggested. The longer flights to EZE/GRU/GIG/SCL/MVD which leave before midnight...yes. The 5 hr 30 min flight between MIA-LIM leaving at 2:00am. No. As someone who has flown between MIA-LIM probably 50-100 times on EA/AA/PL/LA, I can tell you the flight totally sucks. The red-eye is especially bad as it's really too short to sleep and either departs or leaves at very poor hours. Of course, it is what it is and we do what we have to do...but to pretend that a full day's work is done the day before and then also after arrival is pure folly.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:06 am

chepos wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
LATAM and Delta are looking to provide actual competition on this route, AA survives because of connectivity and no other options. AA operated poorly configured aircraft/service on this route while LATAM provides a decent product.


LATAM/AA have been competing on the route for years. They may have been OW partners, but they were still competitors. Had they been granted JV approval they would have operated as one. Until then they were competitors.

Question, have you ever flown LATAM? I have flown them a few times and they are a mixed bag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Flew them once and while not "world class", it was definitely better than most AA flights I have taken.
 
Antarius
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
chepos wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
LATAM and Delta are looking to provide actual competition on this route, AA survives because of connectivity and no other options. AA operated poorly configured aircraft/service on this route while LATAM provides a decent product.


LATAM/AA have been competing on the route for years. They may have been OW partners, but they were still competitors. Had they been granted JV approval they would have operated as one. Until then they were competitors.

Question, have you ever flown LATAM? I have flown them a few times and they are a mixed bag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Flew them once and while not "world class", it was definitely better than most AA flights I have taken.


Im not sure about the back, but I cannot see how one can objectively argue that for premium classes. Shorthaul is all Y. Long haul, they have a vastly inferior product on all but 3 or so aircraft.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
jasoncrh
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:23 am

LATAM has operated a flight from MIA to LIM at that time - between 1 and 2:30AM departure (varies by season) for years. That's not the new flight. The discussions here about that flight not working are based on the incorrect assumption that this is the new flight. it's not. If it weren't working for LATAM, they'd probably move it to another time.

I've taken that flight before. Not fun but it was convenient.

Seat1F wrote:
N62NA wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

It allows a full day of work in Miami, and you can get into Lima in the AM for a full day after a nights rest on the plane. Schedule looks good to me. These oddball departure times are popular to/from Latin America. There are even redeyes between Miami and Bogota.



I suppose a robot could do a full day's work, fly overnight on a 5 hour flight, land in the morning and then put in another "full day's work" the next day.


So true. No-one is going to do what MAH4546 suggested. The longer flights to EZE/GRU/GIG/SCL/MVD which leave before midnight...yes. The 5 hr 30 min flight between MIA-LIM leaving at 2:00am. No. As someone who has flown between MIA-LIM probably 50-100 times on EA/AA/PL/LA, I can tell you the flight totally sucks. The red-eye is especially bad as it's really too short to sleep and either departs or leaves at very poor hours. Of course, it is what it is and we do what we have to do...but to pretend that a full day's work is done the day before and then also after arrival is pure folly.
 
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chepos
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:24 am

Antarius wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
chepos wrote:

LATAM/AA have been competing on the route for years. They may have been OW partners, but they were still competitors. Had they been granted JV approval they would have operated as one. Until then they were competitors.

Question, have you ever flown LATAM? I have flown them a few times and they are a mixed bag.


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Flew them once and while not "world class", it was definitely better than most AA flights I have taken.


Im not sure about the back, but I cannot see how one can objectively argue that for premium classes. Shorthaul is all Y. Long haul, they have a vastly inferior product on all but 3 or so aircraft.


My last flight with LATAM was LIM-UIO, crew was indifferent, no IFE to speak of, catering was a cold mini muffin and yeppers all Y. Not horrible, but not that different than what one gets on a domestic AA flight. Again, I have flown LATAM a few times, anything from crews to the on the ground experience is a mixed bag.


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santi319
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:29 am

If you also add B6 and NK from FLL, there seems to be a bit of excess capacity. Wonder which one will give up first. Historically NK doesn’t nurse routes and are not scared to chop whats not working. But they seem to do better in LIM as it is now a 320NEO from an A319, so something must be working for them.
 
tphuang
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:30 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
LATAM and Delta are looking to provide actual competition on this route, AA survives because of connectivity and no other options. AA operated poorly configured aircraft/service on this route while LATAM provides a decent product.

Typical DL arrogance.

There are already 3 other carrier in the south florida to Lima market.

AV with A330 from MIA. That should have better Y and J than LA 767.
B6 with A321NEO from FLL. That has no J, but much better Y.
NK with A320NEO from FLL. No J and worse Y, but much lower fares. And NK's costs are so much lower than a LA 767.

DL's involvement will not suddenly change things around for AV. DL better start adding feeds to MIA to help LA fill these extra capacity.
 
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N62NA
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:13 am

jasoncrh wrote:
LATAM has operated a flight from MIA to LIM at that time - between 1 and 2:30AM departure (varies by season) for years. That's not the new flight. The discussions here about that flight not working are based on the incorrect assumption that this is the new flight. it's not. If it weren't working for LATAM, they'd probably move it to another time.

I've taken that flight before. Not fun but it was convenient.

Seat1F wrote:
N62NA wrote:


I suppose a robot could do a full day's work, fly overnight on a 5 hour flight, land in the morning and then put in another "full day's work" the next day.


So true. No-one is going to do what MAH4546 suggested. The longer flights to EZE/GRU/GIG/SCL/MVD which leave before midnight...yes. The 5 hr 30 min flight between MIA-LIM leaving at 2:00am. No. As someone who has flown between MIA-LIM probably 50-100 times on EA/AA/PL/LA, I can tell you the flight totally sucks. The red-eye is especially bad as it's really too short to sleep and either departs or leaves at very poor hours. Of course, it is what it is and we do what we have to do...but to pretend that a full day's work is done the day before and then also after arrival is pure folly.



Seat1F and I are not arguing the overnight flight doesn't make money, nor are we arguing that it hasn't been running for years.

What we are taking issue is with the fantasy that a business person could work a full day, take that flight and arrive early in the morning (pre-dawn hours) to then conduct another full day of work. I would love to be negotiating a deal with such a person - would be very easy to take advantage of them!
 
usflyer msp
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:31 am

If you are making a domestic connection in Lima, the 205am flight is the only one with same day domestic connectivity.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:35 am

N62NA wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
LATAM has operated a flight from MIA to LIM at that time - between 1 and 2:30AM departure (varies by season) for years. That's not the new flight. The discussions here about that flight not working are based on the incorrect assumption that this is the new flight. it's not. If it weren't working for LATAM, they'd probably move it to another time.

I've taken that flight before. Not fun but it was convenient.

Seat1F wrote:

So true. No-one is going to do what MAH4546 suggested. The longer flights to EZE/GRU/GIG/SCL/MVD which leave before midnight...yes. The 5 hr 30 min flight between MIA-LIM leaving at 2:00am. No. As someone who has flown between MIA-LIM probably 50-100 times on EA/AA/PL/LA, I can tell you the flight totally sucks. The red-eye is especially bad as it's really too short to sleep and either departs or leaves at very poor hours. Of course, it is what it is and we do what we have to do...but to pretend that a full day's work is done the day before and then also after arrival is pure folly.



Seat1F and I are not arguing the overnight flight doesn't make money, nor are we arguing that it hasn't been running for years.

What we are taking issue is with the fantasy that a business person could work a full day, take that flight and arrive early in the morning (pre-dawn hours) to then conduct another full day of work. I would love to be negotiating a deal with such a person - would be very easy to take advantage of them!


I take redeyes from LA to points east all the time and move forward to conduct a full day of business, redeyes as short as four hours to Toronto.

It’s not difficult. Not everybody is a diva.
a.
 
dmorbust
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:45 am

DL747400 wrote:
Based on comment made by Bastian and Hauenstein, it sounds like they expect the initial DELTA / LATAM codeshare will be in place early in 2020.

Once the initial codeshare is in place, it will be interesting to see what feed is added by DELTA to help support LATAMs existing U.S. services.

Even more interesting will be seeing what new or increased services are added by either/both carriers to/from LATAM hubs and how the feed evolves on both ends as the codesharing expands to include more markets.


They initially said when the deal was announced that codeshare would be in place before the end of the year. Why the delay to 2020?
 
onwFan
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:06 am

No way they are going to be able to sustain 3x daily B767s on this route. Their recent route adjustments seems to point that they want to focus their international operations on SCL, GRU and LIM. Maybe another route about to be cut? Otherwise, yet another flight that LATAM loads, flies for 3 months and pulls back... LA as always will offer the cheapest fares - looks like they are really desperate not to lose passengers. LA has certainly landed themselves in a pickle.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:12 am

Why the negativity? LIM-MIA is a huge market, not to mention Peru has no fllights to MIA from other domestic points. And have we mentioned LA's strong south cone operations which access a considerable all south america POS to provide connections; and the fact that AV is cutting capacity? (To the south cone and MIA is going from A330 to A320NEO on AV).

Geez.
 
OB1504
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:30 am

RCS763AV wrote:
And have we mentioned LA's strong south cone operations which access a considerable all south america POS to provide connections; and the fact that AV is cutting capacity? (To the south cone and MIA is going from A330 to A320NEO on AV).


When is that Avianca downgauge happening?
 
tphuang
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:41 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Why the negativity? LIM-MIA is a huge market, not to mention Peru has no fllights to MIA from other domestic points. And have we mentioned LA's strong south cone operations which access a considerable all south america POS to provide connections; and the fact that AV is cutting capacity? (To the south cone and MIA is going from A330 to A320NEO on AV).

Geez.

But aa is adding a flight already and b6 is upgauging to a321. There will no doubt already be more capacity before this move.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:44 pm

tphuang wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Why the negativity? LIM-MIA is a huge market, not to mention Peru has no fllights to MIA from other domestic points. And have we mentioned LA's strong south cone operations which access a considerable all south america POS to provide connections; and the fact that AV is cutting capacity? (To the south cone and MIA is going from A330 to A320NEO on AV).

Geez.

But aa is adding a flight already and b6 is upgauging to a321. There will no doubt already be more capacity before this move.


It’s nine daily flights in a market of 600,000+ local passengers. That is perfectly reasonable

And on top of that there are other Peruvian markets with decent local market to South Florida - mainly Iquitos and Cuzco - that don’t have service to the States and primarily feed through Lima. Although hearing one of those two will be seeing AA service in 2020.
Last edited by MAH4546 on Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spinotter
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:57 pm

Antarius wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
So, when AA adds capacity or a new route, it's bold and visionary, but when another carrier does it, that carrier is stupid? It's Bologna, indeed! Got it! Carriers don't add capacity thinking they'll operate at a variable loss. LATAM will have plenty of O&D and LIM-onward connections.


Despite AA being a Mickey mouse carrier in a lot of ways post merger, even they manage to make money. Something that LATAM struggles with.

So while the ebullience of DL taking a stake has buoyed optimism, LATAM is still a mess with a long ways to go.


Tell us why you think LATAM is losing money, and how they can resurrect themselves.
 
EddieDude
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Re: LATAM counterattacks AA: LIM-MIA goes 21x weekly

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:54 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Based on comment made by Bastian and Hauenstein, it sounds like they expect the initial DELTA / LATAM codeshare will be in place early in 2020.

Once the initial codeshare is in place, it will be interesting to see what feed is added by DELTA to help support LATAMs existing U.S. services.

Oh wow, that is interesting. I was expecting something around October (considering the note in the QF mileage partners section of their website, which indicates LATAM will leave oneworld on September 30 or something like that).

How about reciprocal mileage accrual?
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