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ikolkyo
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Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:54 pm

I don’t know what it is with these fume events but they seem to be occurring more often as of late. This could have been pretty bad. I feel that in this sort of event the lead cabin attendant should be notified of this event occurring.

A British Airways Airbus A320-200, registration G-GATL performing flight BA-2676 from London Gatwick,EN (UK) to Paphos (Cyprus), was descending through 8000 feet to 6000 feet towards Paphos when the first officer noticed an unusual odour in the cockpit and queried the captain whether he would also smell onion bahjis, the captain indicated he did not. About 30 seconds later the first officer felt his arms and legs were tingling and he had the impression he was about to faint. He donned his oxygen masks and made sure oxygen was set to 100%. He then turned to the captain telling him, he didn't feel good, but there was no response, the first officer then indicated he was incapacitated, still no response from the captain. After a couple of seconds the captain finally reacted stating very slowly he didn't feel good, too, and donned his oxygen mask. Both pilots verified the captain's oxygen was set to 100%. During that time several calls by ATC to descend to 4000 feet went unnoticed. The pilots recovered a bit, however, could not establish two way communication between them with the oxygen masks on, they figured the captain could hear the first officer but the first officer could not hear the captain. The captain was pilot flying and began to point to the checklist to be executed (smoke, fire, fumes), then throughout the approach pointed to the relevant levers to be operated for flaps and gear extension while the first officer continued to communicate with ATC and read the checklists. The aircraft landed safely on Paphos' runway 29 about 13 minutes after the onset of trouble, the crew opened the cockpit windows immediately after roll out before taxiing to the stand.

Following shut down at the stand the captain went to the lavatory almost immediately, while the first officer checked with the cabin whether there was everything okay. The cabin had not noticed anything untoward, however, the flight attendant was shocked by the view of the first officer being completely pale. She stated there was a strong smell of fuel from the cockpit when the cockpit door opened. The tingling, confusion and difficulties to concentrate continued past the landing despite the oxygen mask. Both pilots went to a hospital where they were both diagnosed with very low blood oxygen saturation and feaver. The doctors recommended the flight crew to stay in hospital overnight for monitoring, however, the pilots preferred to go to the hotel and returned to London the next day as passengers, refusing to fly on the occurrence aircraft.

The occurrence aircraft remained on the ground for about 27 hours, then returned to London Gatwick as flight BA-2675 and continued service.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4cfb5c82&opt=0
 
RvA
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:27 pm

Yikes!
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:49 pm

Regular issues (including with smoke/fumes) with that aircraft:

Sept 6: Went tech overnight in Edinburgh
Oct 2: Technical diversion to Athens (smoke in cabin)
Oct 18: Technical diversion to Porto
Oct 19: Paphos crew incapacitated (fumes)

No fault found? There's definitely something
 
9w748capt
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:53 pm

Wow I wonder if something led to methemoglobinemia? Wouldn't have expected them to have low O2 sats unless there was something else going on.
 
kiowa
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:11 pm

Sounds very much like an American Airlines event about two weeks ago as well as a Spirit airlines airbus several years ago.
 
CWL757
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:52 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:
Regular issues (including with smoke/fumes) with that aircraft:

Sept 6: Went tech overnight in Edinburgh
Oct 2: Technical diversion to Athens (smoke in cabin)
Oct 18: Technical diversion to Porto
Oct 19: Paphos crew incapacitated (fumes)

No fault found? There's definitely something

Are those all with GATL!? Surely this warrants the aircraft being taken out of service for a major check of the Avionics? Clearly something not right with that a/c. This could have had the same result as the Helios crash, albeit with a different cause.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
Ryanair01
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:58 pm

CWL757 wrote:
Ryanair01 wrote:
Regular issues (including with smoke/fumes) with that aircraft:

Sept 6: Went tech overnight in Edinburgh
Oct 2: Technical diversion to Athens (smoke in cabin)
Oct 18: Technical diversion to Porto
Oct 19: Paphos crew incapacitated (fumes)

No fault found? There's definitely something

Are those all with GATL!? Surely this warrants the aircraft being taken out of service for a major check of the Avionics? Clearly something not right with that a/c. This could have had the same result as the Helios crash, albeit with a different cause.


Yes all GATL.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:13 pm

I wasn't aware that BA operated secondhand A320's. Seems like GATL had quite the life before joining the BA-fleet.
 
kalvado
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:35 pm

I wonder how this all is troubleshoot. Looks to me like criminal investigation methods - blood testing, cockpit interior wipes and testing - are needed to tell what is getting into the air...
 
ozark1
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:10 pm

Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:23 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence

Increasing your chance of cancer with every flight.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:32 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence

I don't know about that; I've been on many A320Family flights, and I've never experienced smoke/fume nor have I seen passengers ring the call light upon start-up.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:56 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


As I understand it, this is not uncommon with multiple aircraft models, as smoke and unburnt fuel vapor from the engine during startup can easily be recirculated forward to the cabin air intakes when the aircraft is sitting still, if aircraft is oriented with the tail upwind.

Fumes in the cabin while in flight points to something else.
 
ethernal
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:58 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


As I understand it, this is not uncommon with multiple aircraft models, as smoke and unburnt fuel vapor from the engine during startup can easily be recirculated forward to the cabin air intakes when the aircraft is sitting still, if aircraft is oriented with the tail upwind.

Fumes in the cabin while in flight points to something else.


Yeah, two entirely separate issues. I've noticed cabin fumes at the gate from all aircraft families. Half the time it's probably not even the aircraft itself but ground equipment. Depends on the wind really.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:07 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


As I understand it, this is not uncommon with multiple aircraft models, as smoke and unburnt fuel vapor from the engine during startup can easily be recirculated forward to the cabin air intakes when the aircraft is sitting still, if aircraft is oriented with the tail upwind.

Fumes in the cabin while in flight points to something else.


I don’t know what it is but the Airbuses are extremely prone to fume events, a simple search of the word “fumes” on avherald brings of pages of incidents and a very large majority on A320 family aircraft.

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=fumes ... search.y=0
 
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F737NG
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:29 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


Serious fanboy BS that's disproved within minutes of searching.

Plaintiffs bringing cases due to exposure on board MD-80s:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/52734-dc-9-md-80-fume-lawsuit.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44777304/ns/travel-news/t/boeing-suit-settlement-stirs-jetliner-air-safety-debate/


While certain types (looking at you BAe 146) appear to have higher incidences of fume events, the bleedless 787 isn't perfect at keeping toxins out of cabin air either:

Special attention was paid to organophosphates [OPs], in particular, the isomers (forms) of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), which is suspected to be a cause of symptoms reported by flight crew. OPs were found in all samples, but reported concentrations were well below exposure limits.
According to the study findings, TCP concentrations in the cabin, if introduced as a continuous ‘bleed air’ contamination, ought to be constant. However, this is not the case for the individual aircraft included in the study. OPs and other contaminants were generally at the highest levels during taxi-out and at lower levels during take-off/climb and descent/landing. The researchers attribute the difference in concentrations to the rate of exchange of the cabin air. It is remarkable that TCP was detected in the non-‘bleed air’ driven B787, especially as we have, in previous editions of BCDN, featured the comments of Boeing claiming to have alleviated any risk of ‘bleed air’ exposure.


Source: https://www.bc-legal.co.uk/media/A%20Collection%20of%20BC%20Disease%20News%20Articles%20on%20Aerotoxic%20Syndrome.pdf

It's going to take a radical change in how airliners are designed to source fresh external air and circulate it into the cabin, to reduce the likelihood of exposure to toxins. Until then, we will continue to read about more events like this one.
 
kiowa
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:36 pm

F737NG wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


Serious fanboy BS that's disproved within minutes of searching.

Plaintiffs bringing cases due to exposure on board MD-80s:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/52734-dc-9-md-80-fume-lawsuit.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44777304/ns/travel-news/t/boeing-suit-settlement-stirs-jetliner-air-safety-debate/


While certain types (looking at you BAe 146) appear to have higher incidences of fume events, the bleedless 787 isn't perfect at keeping toxins out of cabin air either:

Special attention was paid to organophosphates [OPs], in particular, the isomers (forms) of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), which is suspected to be a cause of symptoms reported by flight crew. OPs were found in all samples, but reported concentrations were well below exposure limits.
According to the study findings, TCP concentrations in the cabin, if introduced as a continuous ‘bleed air’ contamination, ought to be constant. However, this is not the case for the individual aircraft included in the study. OPs and other contaminants were generally at the highest levels during taxi-out and at lower levels during take-off/climb and descent/landing. The researchers attribute the difference in concentrations to the rate of exchange of the cabin air. It is remarkable that TCP was detected in the non-‘bleed air’ driven B787, especially as we have, in previous editions of BCDN, featured the comments of Boeing claiming to have alleviated any risk of ‘bleed air’ exposure.


Source: https://www.bc-legal.co.uk/media/A%20Collection%20of%20BC%20Disease%20News%20Articles%20on%20Aerotoxic%20Syndrome.pdf

It's going to take a radical change in how airliners are designed to source fresh external air and circulate it into the cabin, to reduce the likelihood of exposure to toxins. Until then, we will continue to read about more events like this one.


The radical design change already exists on the 787. They did away with packs altogether for pressurization. It’s one of the reasons people feel better on long flights. It also has a lower cabin altitude and humidifiers for additional creature comfort. I don’t know of another aircraft that is not using packs.
 
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F737NG
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:53 pm

kiowa wrote:
F737NG wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


Serious fanboy BS that's disproved within minutes of searching.

Plaintiffs bringing cases due to exposure on board MD-80s:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/52734-dc-9-md-80-fume-lawsuit.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44777304/ns/travel-news/t/boeing-suit-settlement-stirs-jetliner-air-safety-debate/


While certain types (looking at you BAe 146) appear to have higher incidences of fume events, the bleedless 787 isn't perfect at keeping toxins out of cabin air either:

Special attention was paid to organophosphates [OPs], in particular, the isomers (forms) of tricresyl phosphate (TCP), which is suspected to be a cause of symptoms reported by flight crew. OPs were found in all samples, but reported concentrations were well below exposure limits.
According to the study findings, TCP concentrations in the cabin, if introduced as a continuous ‘bleed air’ contamination, ought to be constant. However, this is not the case for the individual aircraft included in the study. OPs and other contaminants were generally at the highest levels during taxi-out and at lower levels during take-off/climb and descent/landing. The researchers attribute the difference in concentrations to the rate of exchange of the cabin air. It is remarkable that TCP was detected in the non-‘bleed air’ driven B787, especially as we have, in previous editions of BCDN, featured the comments of Boeing claiming to have alleviated any risk of ‘bleed air’ exposure.


Source: https://www.bc-legal.co.uk/media/A%20Collection%20of%20BC%20Disease%20News%20Articles%20on%20Aerotoxic%20Syndrome.pdf

It's going to take a radical change in how airliners are designed to source fresh external air and circulate it into the cabin, to reduce the likelihood of exposure to toxins. Until then, we will continue to read about more events like this one.


The radical design change already exists on the 787. They did away with packs altogether for pressurization. It’s one of the reasons people feel better on long flights. It also has a lower cabin altitude and humidifiers for additional creature comfort. I don’t know of another aircraft that is not using packs.


Did you even read the quote from the journal?!

OP toxins were detected in the non-bleed air 787.

"It is remarkable that TCP was detected in the non-‘bleed air’ driven B787, especially as we have, in previous editions of BCDN, featured the comments of Boeing claiming to have alleviated any risk of ‘bleed air’ exposure"

The whole methodology of using the engine intakes (regardless of manufacturer) as a source of fresh air could be harmful to our health.


A limited health study took results from crew and passengers subjected to fume events on multiple aircraft, BAe 146 x 5; A330 x 2; A319 x 2; B757 x 3; B737 x 1; B767 x1; and B747 x 1.

http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/341533/5_OriginalResearch_AerotoxicSyndrom_ENG.pdf

This is NOT an A vs B thing, this is an entire industry issue.
NO aircraft is flawless when it comes to toxic air.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:02 am

It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.
 
Antarius
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:07 am

F737NG wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence


Serious fanboy BS that's disproved within minutes of searching.

Plaintiffs bringing cases due to exposure on board MD-80s:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/52734-dc-9-md-80-fume-lawsuit.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44777304/ns/travel-news/t/boeing-suit-settlement-stirs-jetliner-air-safety-debate/


Umm... ozark1 specifically singled out the MD80 as having fume issues. So you reinforced his/her point, albeit not intentionally?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT BIS LHR TXL
 
kiowa
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.

I believe that was the one on American Airlines.
 
Antarius
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:09 am

kiowa wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.

I believe that was the one on American Airlines.


AA doesnt have any a330 neos.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT BIS LHR TXL
 
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F737NG
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:11 am

Antarius wrote:
Umm... ozark1 specifically singled out the MD80 as having fume issues. So you reinforced his/her point, albeit not intentionally?


True, I read the original comment regarding MD-80s incorrectly.

"the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence."
Several fume events reported on different aircraft types suggests that is complete rubbish.

Anecdotally, ever sat behind the wing on a 737 on engine startup? You can often get a very strong smell of kerosene.
However, that's by the by.

It appears that no airliner (even the 787) is immune to toxins appearing in cabin air.
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA%20CAQ%20Study%20Final%20Report_21.03.2017.pdf

There's something fundamentally wrong with current designs of the cabin air system.
 
CWL757
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:13 am

kiowa wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.

I believe that was the one on American Airlines.

It was TAP.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
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longhauler
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:15 am

I sincerely hope these crew members do not have any lasting effects of this event. These lasting effects commonly occur and sometimes it takes days for all symptoms to appear.

We have at least half a dozen pilots on long term disability as a result of fume events. One sadly has passed away.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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zkojq
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:21 am

A few months back I googled the registration of the Eurowings A319 I was about to board and gulped at the number of fume incidents that the aircraft had been involved in. What can you do as a passenger though?

CWL757 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.

I believe that was the one on American Airlines.

It was TAP.

And AirCalin sent their latest A330neo back to Airbus due to fume issues.

longhauler wrote:
I sincerely hope these crew members do not have any lasting effects of this event. These lasting effects commonly occur and sometimes it takes days for all symptoms to appear.

We have at least half a dozen pilots on long term disability as a result of fume events. One sadly has passed away.

:checkmark: It's scary what time exposure can do to people.

The following is worthwhile (and depressing) reading for anybody interested in the issue.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b6eb830/0006&opt=0
First to fly the 787-9
 
UA735WL
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:30 am

For what it's worth, I flew on an AA A319 a while back when their fleet was being delivered ~2014, and remember an almost overpowering odor of Jet-A during start. I only have ever experienced this one time, and as such cannot say if it's airplane specific or if it is influenced by things like seat location (FWIW I was just behind the wing).
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:45 am

This unfortunately happens on most aircraft and most airlines. Had a fume incident at the previous airline I worked for that operated E175's, about two passengers required treatment and all four crew members went to the hospital with the two FA's being the most affected. Was also on a 737 flight where we had to return to the gate because the smell of Jet-A after startup and taxi was too overpowering.

Nothing of course will happen until a fatal accident happens as a result of the flight crew passing out due to fumes. The useless FAA will make sure of it.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:08 am

zkojq wrote:
A few months back I googled the registration of the Eurowings A319 I was about to board and gulped at the number of fume incidents that the aircraft had been involved in. What can you do as a passenger though?


Get a fume mask...preferably a P95 rated mask, and keep it with you. I fly in the back 8 times a month commuting on a transcon and don’t fly without one handy now. I got fumed last week by an A321. The airline has switched turbine oils to one that no longer smells like dirty socks, but rather magic markers when it gets sucked into the bleeds and pyrolized. I was sleeping (redeye) and was awoken by the overpowering marker smell. I put my mask on the remainder of the flight. Everyone else was asleep and no one had markers out. Eyes, nose, throat burned the rest of the day. Had a nasty headache. I sure hope this issue gets fixed at some point soon.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:16 am

Fume events happen on virtually every flight I'm on, on any aircraft type, when an engine is started during pushback and the aircraft is pushed through the resulting cloud of oily cold-start exhaust. I've experienced it on Embraers, MDs, 737s, A320s, 757s, 767s, and an A330. It's really nasty and one of my least favorite things about flying. I try to hold my breath for the first minute or two after I smell it, and then minimize my air intake until the aircraft is moving forward.

Having it happen in the cockpit in flight, though, is a different kettle of fish.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:21 am

Aircalin just sent back a brand new A330neo to Toulouse last week after fume events that the source couldn't be found and TAP sent back at least one of their A330neos a few months ago to be diagnosed in Toulouse. They usually call it dirty sock smell I believe and it appears to be related to a seal on the Trent 7000
 
Eikie
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:01 am

seabosdca wrote:
Fume events happen on virtually every flight I'm on, on any aircraft type, when an engine is started during pushback and the aircraft is pushed through the resulting cloud of oily cold-start exhaust. I've experienced it on Embraers, MDs, 737s, A320s, 757s, 767s, and an A330. It's really nasty and one of my least favorite things about flying. I try to hold my breath for the first minute or two after I smell it, and then minimize my air intake until the aircraft is moving forward.

Having it happen in the cockpit in flight, though, is a different kettle of fish.

What you are snelling is, most probably, the exhaust gasses.

Hot air is taken from the engines, but mixed with cold outside air. The intake is below the fuselage, in front of the engines, but with no or tailwind, the exhaust can be sucked in if the plane is standing still.

And since the intake is for the whole plane, if you smell it, the cockpit gets it too.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:11 am

IWMBH wrote:
I wasn't aware that BA operated secondhand A320's. Seems like GATL had quite the life before joining the BA-fleet.


Yes, all of the G-GAT* fleet were acquired from previous operators. Another example of life under Mr Cruz.
 
Chasensfo
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:11 am

There have no been about 20 of these events I've read about in recent memory over the past several years, and yet, no media frenzy nor manufacture reassurance.
 
marcelh
Posts: 735
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:21 am

Ryanair01 wrote:
Regular issues (including with smoke/fumes) with that aircraft:

Sept 6: Went tech overnight in Edinburgh
Oct 2: Technical diversion to Athens (smoke in cabin)
Oct 18: Technical diversion to Porto
Oct 19: Paphos crew incapacitated (fumes)

No fault found? There's definitely something


Already posted at the beginning of this thread and nobody is questioning the maintenance standards of BA? I bet this happened in Africa or Asia, a lot of A.netters would be fuming about “poor maintenance standards”.... :scratchchin:
 
chrisp390
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:11 am

It seems these events are a common occurrence and something that should be looked into more closely as it is only a matter of time before it results in a fatal accident.

Why is it that these fume events disproportionately affect the A320? I am basing this off searching Avherald reports.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2482
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:00 am

This is a VERY serious incident.
And BA should be serious about this, and remove from duty the ship until they have properly determined what is wrong with is.
Unfortunately, as some have pointed out already, one of the cost-cutting exercises dictated by the Cruz era was to buy well-used second-hand A320s, and although said incidents can happen to new aircrafts (cue the neo330) I am certain that frame age is relevant in leaks and air contamination incidents
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4628
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:31 am

ozark1 wrote:
Let me tell you something. Upon engine startup and pushback on Airbus 319/320/321 aircraft, the fumes are so harsh that passengers will often ring their call light and ask me what the odor is. I don't know what phase of flight this was, but with the exception of the good ole MD80's , the Airbus fleet is the only aircraft type where fumes are a normal occurrence

How come I have never witnessed anyone do this in over 100 flights on the A320 series in 13 years?There's always a whiff of fumes but as an avgeek that's a mild plus. Never seen anyone remotely alarmed by BAU.
The 146 was notorious for fume events, especially made worse by the lack of nose in parking at LCY made it a pain point as jet exhausts were blasting rather close for comfort.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:37 am

Sounds a scary event. I had a fine event once which required an emergency landing. They never found the source but they replaced all of the usual suspects that cause smoke and fine events and the use of packs have been uodated. Two years on the aircraft in question hasn't had a repeat incident.
 
GDB
Posts: 13273
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:49 am

JannEejit wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I wasn't aware that BA operated secondhand A320's. Seems like GATL had quite the life before joining the BA-fleet.


Yes, all of the G-GAT* fleet were acquired from previous operators. Another example of life under Mr Cruz.


Worse, ignoring the lessons BA should have heeded after a bunch of used 737's, mostly IIRC -500's, brought around 2000 to operate out of LGW.
Some of those were heaps, with often hard to trace logs, (some written in Portuguese).

So when the masterminds at Waterside announced we were going to repeat the exercise with used A320's some of us groaned.
Not that this bunch needed large scale mods to be compatible with the rest of the fleet, just that these days we don't have the personnel resources and have lost a lot of knowledge and expertise too.

Still, off you go Mr Cruz, buy another airline we've never heard of.
 
GBNWB
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:53 am

G-GATL isn't that old, it is MSN 1834, it is the same as as say G-EUUL and G-EUUM and newer than the BA A319s. 2003 vintage aircraft.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3156
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:17 am

Ryanair01 wrote:
Regular issues (including with smoke/fumes) with that aircraft:

Sept 6: Went tech overnight in Edinburgh
Oct 2: Technical diversion to Athens (smoke in cabin)
Oct 18: Technical diversion to Porto
Oct 19: Paphos crew incapacitated (fumes)

No fault found? There's definitely something


Seems like not a good record, I would have thought smells would be pretty easy to trace given proper forensic techniques.

It smelled like an onion bhaji apparently, if I ever smell that at home I know its because my wife has been brushing her hair in the shower...

Fred
Image
 
dabsen
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:07 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:17 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
zkojq wrote:
A few months back I googled the registration of the Eurowings A319 I was about to board and gulped at the number of fume incidents that the aircraft had been involved in. What can you do as a passenger though?


Get a fume mask...preferably a P95 rated mask, and keep it with you. I fly in the back 8 times a month commuting on a transcon and don’t fly without one handy now.


Not an expert but I'm rather skeptical a simple P95 mask would do much against organophosphates. Presumably one would need something like an activated carbon filter, which I certainly wouldn't bother carrying around on planes…
 
uta999
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:34 am

Shouldn't the pilots involved insist this aircraft is taken out of service until the source is found? The CAA or AAIB could too (hint) if it reaches them.
Your computer just got better
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:57 am

Odd how it seems to often be "31" and "32" aircraft..... ;)
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2099
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:13 pm

GBNWB wrote:
G-GATL isn't that old, it is MSN 1834, it is the same as as say G-EUUL and G-EUUM and newer than the BA A319s. 2003 vintage aircraft.


Still, I think few people who've worked with the BA 320 fleet, will be surprised that it involves a -GATx bird rather then an -EUUx one!
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
GBNWB
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:16 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
GBNWB wrote:
G-GATL isn't that old, it is MSN 1834, it is the same as as say G-EUUL and G-EUUM and newer than the BA A319s. 2003 vintage aircraft.


Still, I think few people who've worked with the BA 320 fleet, will be surprised that it involves a -GATx bird rather then an -EUUx one!


"Barely airworthy," was a phrase mentioned the other day from a former LGW driver now at LHR.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9886
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:20 pm

dabsen wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
zkojq wrote:
A few months back I googled the registration of the Eurowings A319 I was about to board and gulped at the number of fume incidents that the aircraft had been involved in. What can you do as a passenger though?


Get a fume mask...preferably a P95 rated mask, and keep it with you. I fly in the back 8 times a month commuting on a transcon and don’t fly without one handy now.


Not an expert but I'm rather skeptical a simple P95 mask would do much against organophosphates. Presumably one would need something like an activated carbon filter, which I certainly wouldn't bother carrying around on planes…

The very fact that his “eyes, nose, throat burned the rest of the day. Had a nasty headache” despite wearing the mask is proof that the mask didn’t actually do all that much.
 
D L X
Posts: 12607
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:24 pm

Are these pilots back in the air? I recall something similar happening to a US 767 crew, and it ended up being both pilots’ last flights. The captain died some time later from his injuries. (This might be the event Longhauler was mentioning.)

http://avherald.com/h?article=425f6a41

This sounds like an extremely serious event, a close call for now, but I fear the story might not be over.
 
kiowa
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Serious fume event on BA A320 - both pilots partially incapacitated

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:03 pm

Antarius wrote:
kiowa wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It also happened on an A330neo a few months ago.

I believe that was the one on American Airlines.


AA doesnt have any a330 neos.


The article states A330.

https://simpleflying.com/american-a330-fumes-diversion/

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