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LAXintl
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Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:05 pm

Avianca and Iberia applied for codesharing authority to display IB code on Avianca operated routes between the U.S and points in Latin America.

Carriers say they will initially offer connectivity between Iberia and Avianca flights at MIA and later expanded to other U.S gateways.

OST-2019-0166

=

Suppose part of IAGs answer to LATAM leaving OW
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:14 pm

This is a surprising expansion of their codeshare agreement. As far as I know, IB places its code one one of the three daily MAD-BOG rotations and two of the seven weekly rotations to BCN from BOG. AV places its code on the daily IB flights to BOG. The three new weekly frequencies are not included in the codeshare. They both codeshare on some domestic flights on each network too.

It seems strange they'd rather codeshare via the US and not of the non-stops from Colombia (BOG, MDE and CLO all served from MAD and MAD and BCN served from BOG).

This could certainly be IB covering its bases as LATAM ended BOG-MIA. Interesting times after the DL investment in LATAM.
Last edited by RCS763AV on Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:21 pm

AV also gives IB good access to Central America markets also, not just Colombia.
mercure f-wtcc
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:32 pm

Indeed. That's probably a better reason to expand the codeshare via MIA. Colombia-MIA-Spain makes no sense with the amount of non-stop capacity being offered.
 
onwFan
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:33 pm

Pretty much tells where IAG stands with respect to their JV with LATAM. I guess Willie really meant it when he said "but this clearly does potentially change the nature of that relationship". If their UX purchase goes through, it makes much more sense for both IB and AV to cozy up... A partner like IB is exactly what AV needs at the moment - much more important and meaningful than the proposed UA/Azul/Copa/AV partnership where AV is the weakest link...
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:38 am

i don't know why AV joined star alliance they've been in the wrong alliance
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:39 am

onwFan wrote:
Pretty much tells where IAG stands with respect to their JV with LATAM. I guess Willie really meant it when he said "but this clearly does potentially change the nature of that relationship". If their UX purchase goes through, it makes much more sense for both IB and AV to cozy up... A partner like IB is exactly what AV needs at the moment - much more important and meaningful than the proposed UA/Azul/Copa/AV partnership where AV is the weakest link...


The two partnerships are irrelevant to one another. UA/Azul/Copa dont care what AV does in Europe. It doesnt affect them.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:39 am

OGLOBAL wrote:
i don't know why AV joined star alliance they've been in the wrong alliance


Alliances are becoming a thing of the past. Dont believe me, ask DL.

The future is about individual agreements and JVs.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
onwFan
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:17 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Pretty much tells where IAG stands with respect to their JV with LATAM. I guess Willie really meant it when he said "but this clearly does potentially change the nature of that relationship". If their UX purchase goes through, it makes much more sense for both IB and AV to cozy up... A partner like IB is exactly what AV needs at the moment - much more important and meaningful than the proposed UA/Azul/Copa/AV partnership where AV is the weakest link...


The two partnerships are irrelevant to one another. UA/Azul/Copa dont care what AV does in Europe. It doesnt affect them.


I wasn't suggesting they are related. I was simply suggesting that this is a wise choice of partnership when compared to UA, which did not make much sense for them with Copa and Azul already in the picture.
 
onwFan
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:18 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
OGLOBAL wrote:
i don't know why AV joined star alliance they've been in the wrong alliance


Alliances are becoming a thing of the past. Dont believe me, ask DL.

The future is about individual agreements and JVs.


But it does matter if you are still paying to be in an alliance which does little to help with your profitability...
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:25 am

onwFan wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Pretty much tells where IAG stands with respect to their JV with LATAM. I guess Willie really meant it when he said "but this clearly does potentially change the nature of that relationship". If their UX purchase goes through, it makes much more sense for both IB and AV to cozy up... A partner like IB is exactly what AV needs at the moment - much more important and meaningful than the proposed UA/Azul/Copa/AV partnership where AV is the weakest link...


The two partnerships are irrelevant to one another. UA/Azul/Copa dont care what AV does in Europe. It doesnt affect them.


I wasn't suggesting they are related. I was simply suggesting that this is a wise choice of partnership when compared to UA, which did not make much sense for them with Copa and Azul already in the picture.


United all-but-own Avianca
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:30 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
onwFan wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

The two partnerships are irrelevant to one another. UA/Azul/Copa dont care what AV does in Europe. It doesnt affect them.


I wasn't suggesting they are related. I was simply suggesting that this is a wise choice of partnership when compared to UA, which did not make much sense for them with Copa and Azul already in the picture.


United all-but-own Avianca

What is the latest on that? United can’t fully “own” Avianca due to their union agreements (but they do?) but is their “non-controlling controlling” interest enough to stop AV from leaving them? Not that AV actually would leave anyway.
That whole UA/AV just seems convoluted to me.
 
NYCAdvantage
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:50 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Avianca and Iberia applied for codesharing authority to display IB code on Avianca operated routes between the U.S and points in Latin America.

Carriers say they will initially offer connectivity between Iberia and Avianca flights at MIA and later expanded to other U.S gateways.

OST-2019-0166

=

Suppose part of IAGs answer to LATAM leaving OW

Very interesting, AA travel to South America too, I wonder if they are sending also a message to American...
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:53 am

This seems fishy. Why in the world do they want to codeshare via Miami with US CBP in the picture? Is there not already enough capacity to MAD? Foreign carriers should not have the right to place their code on flights connecting via the US, anyway. They’d basically be using our facilities and services without hiring significant numbers of Americans. IB already outsources a lot of their work to the lowest bidder.
 
747megatop
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:59 am

LAXintl wrote:
Avianca and Iberia applied for codesharing authority to display IB code on Avianca operated routes between the U.S and points in Latin America.

Carriers say they will initially offer connectivity between Iberia and Avianca flights at MIA and later expanded to other U.S gateways.

OST-2019-0166

=

Suppose part of IAGs answer to LATAM leaving OW

This will not work given the hassles of International to International transit connections in the US
 
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adamblang
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:16 am

RCS763AV wrote:
It seems strange they'd rather codeshare via the US and not of the non-stops from Colombia (BOG, MDE and CLO all served from MAD and MAD and BCN served from BOG).

Given the OP's source is a U.S. Department of Transportation filing, would U.S. regulators have any say in the codeshares on either airlines' nonstops? I don't think any activity on that front would appear in this docket.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
getluv
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:21 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
This seems fishy. Why in the world do they want to codeshare via Miami with US CBP in the picture? Is there not already enough capacity to MAD? Foreign carriers should not have the right to place their code on flights connecting via the US, anyway. They’d basically be using our facilities and services without hiring significant numbers of Americans. IB already outsources a lot of their work to the lowest bidder.


Codesharing allows for routes or capacity increases to remain/become viable. Absent a codeshare IB or AV may end or reduce frequencies on their respective routes to the US, which would cause prices to increase.

IB’s outsourcing is irrelevant to the topic.
I'm that bad type.
 
OB1504
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:17 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
This seems fishy. Why in the world do they want to codeshare via Miami with US CBP in the picture? Is there not already enough capacity to MAD? Foreign carriers should not have the right to place their code on flights connecting via the US, anyway. They’d basically be using our facilities and services without hiring significant numbers of Americans. IB already outsources a lot of their work to the lowest bidder.


Who do you think the AV and IB ground staff at MIA would be? Americans.

Those connecting passengers pay the same CBP fees as any other international travelers.

Also, do you think US carriers don’t outsource to the lowest bidder? As an example, there was a huge news story last year about the terrible working conditions of the company AA contracts to do cabin service at MIA, and yesterday the employees of the company they contract for catering were on the verge of a strike and had demonstrations in the terminal.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:14 am

OB1504 wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
This seems fishy. Why in the world do they want to codeshare via Miami with US CBP in the picture? Is there not already enough capacity to MAD? Foreign carriers should not have the right to place their code on flights connecting via the US, anyway. They’d basically be using our facilities and services without hiring significant numbers of Americans. IB already outsources a lot of their work to the lowest bidder.


Who do you think the AV and IB ground staff at MIA would be? Americans.

Those connecting passengers pay the same CBP fees as any other international travelers.

Also, do you think US carriers don’t outsource to the lowest bidder? As an example, there was a huge news story last year about the terrible working conditions of the company AA contracts to do cabin service at MIA, and yesterday the employees of the company they contract for catering were on the verge of a strike and had demonstrations in the terminal.


And yet their pilots, flight attendants, customer service reps and mechanics all have good union collective bargaining agreements. Meanwhile, IB is paying bottom dollar to contract out a minimal number of airport jobs that do not lead to sustainable careers. The staff foreign carriers use in the US is generally small in number, and they always pay worse than American carriers and offer very few opportunities for advancement.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:19 am

getluv wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
This seems fishy. Why in the world do they want to codeshare via Miami with US CBP in the picture? Is there not already enough capacity to MAD? Foreign carriers should not have the right to place their code on flights connecting via the US, anyway. They’d basically be using our facilities and services without hiring significant numbers of Americans. IB already outsources a lot of their work to the lowest bidder.


Codesharing allows for routes or capacity increases to remain/become viable. Absent a codeshare IB or AV may end or reduce frequencies on their respective routes to the US, which would cause prices to increase.

IB’s outsourcing is irrelevant to the topic.


You can't really argue that not being able to put codeshares on international connecting itineraries would really limit capacity to the US to the extent that prices from the US to South America or Europe would increase. There are way too many competitive factors in play to make that assumption. I'm not sure how outsourcing is irrelevant to the topic; foreign carriers always argue that US jobs are in play when they make their arguments for things like this, but then the jobs they create are never that good or plentiful.
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: Avianca-Iberia seek codeshares via the U.S.

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:49 pm

mercure1 wrote:
AV also gives IB good access to Central America markets also, not just Colombia.

IB is actually code-sharing with Avianca Central America in some routes: AV SJO-SAL, AV SAL-SAP-MIA, AV SAL-TGU, AV SAL-MGA, AV SAL-GUA and so forth. These flights match with the dedicated IB flights to Central America: IB MAD-GUA-SAL-MAD and IB MAD-SJO.
Copa Airlines is also actively offering the same service, in partnership with Iberia: CM PTY-GUA, CM PTY-MGA, CM PTY-SAL, CM PTY-SJO-GUA, CM PTY-SJO-TGU an so on. They can connect to IB MAD-PTY 7x weekly.

Regards.
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