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767333ER
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:13 am

SEPilot wrote:
PM wrote:
Well, this is timely. From today's BBC website.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50562518

"The corporation has failed to deliver benefit beyond shareholders, to its stakeholders and its wider community," he said.

"At the moment, how we conceptualise business is, it's there to make money. But instead, we should think about it as an incredibly powerful tool for solving our problems in the world."

Read Adam Smith. Everyone working for their own best interest works for the best interest of the whole. That applies to corporations too. If corporations work to maximize profits by offering the best products and service that they can it will also go a long way towards solving those problems you refer to.

But this is one of the cases where Smith’s argument fails to be true.
If corporations work to maximize profits by offering the best products and service that they can

This is based on an assumption that offering the best products and service maximizes profit. This can be true, especially in small business, but more often than not when it comes to large scale corporations it is not true. McDonald’s doesn’t offer the best service (they do half decent there though as of the last decade or so) and they certainly don’t offer the best product, but they make the most money. Why? Because they have an established brand due to some very smart and sometimes somewhat nasty business decisions.

The Boeing example here is a little more like the Ford Pinto, but still seemingly not as sinister. They found it cheaper to make a lesser product than to make a better one because going the extra mile to offer thatbest product wouldn’t make them any more money. 346 lives later, that obviously wasn’t the right decision, but the stock is still doing well so it’s not the end of the world for more than a few individuals. Making a better product , which is in the best interest of the average person, would cost a lot more to develop and product for very little gain which means less profit and that does not please the self interest of the stakeholders. In such a corporate culture as that of Boeing, that means they cut the corners 10 times out of 10 as that works towards the self interests of the people that own the company.

It’s much like constitutional freedom. It has limitations such that you have freedom up to the point that you don’t infringe on someone else’s freedom. This isn’t the maximum amount of freedom you could have, but it’s the only fair way we’ve found. Similarly, at some point someone working for their own self interest goes against the interests of others.

It’s like what Churchill said about Democracy: all forms of governmental systems are flawed and are the worst, but democracy is the least worst. All economic systems don’t really work. What’s the lesser of all the evils here? My guess is probably some sort of mixed market economy; however, I subscribe to the idea that any economic system whether communist, fascist, capitalist, or somewhere in between is just a giant “legal” pyramid scheme. Boeing is just one example.

Smith’s idea could work if the best product always sold the best and had the best profit margin and if stakeholders could see past their own noses and think longer term, but they want their money and they want it NOW... or at least soon.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:25 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
Let's put Boeing aside for a minute and go after the real villain, the FAA. They should be disbanded and it's top officials arrested for mass murder, not just for the MAX 8 accidents but for many other crashes in history that could've been prevented with proper oversight/action. The FAA has a lot of blood on it's hands and it concerns me no one is taking action against them or looking to abolish the agency.


I have a feeling that you have never met an engineer working for the FAA on airplane certification. You can say whatever you want regarding bureaucracy, but I am pretty confident that the FAA has more technical expertise on airplane design than any other regulatory agency in the world. The FAA deserves significant credit for making aviation as safe as it is.
 
Dogman
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:41 pm

The real problem is that for the shareholders maximum profit does not necessarily related to the company's long term health or even survival. The shareholders can press the BOD to adopt the policies that will push the share price higher, by taking more out of the company and investing less in the company, even if it comes at the expense of the company's future. Before the things started to go bad they just sell their shares and let some other, less savvy investors to take the losses. That's why it is much better when the system designed the way that the company is functioning in stakeholders best interests, not shareholders only.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:40 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
Let's put Boeing aside for a minute and go after the real villain, the FAA. They should be disbanded and it's top officials arrested for mass murder, not just for the MAX 8 accidents but for many other crashes in history that could've been prevented with proper oversight/action. The FAA has a lot of blood on it's hands and it concerns me no one is taking action against them or looking to abolish the agency.


I have a feeling that you have never met an engineer working for the FAA on airplane certification. You can say whatever you want regarding bureaucracy, but I am pretty confident that the FAA has more technical expertise on airplane design than any other regulatory agency in the world. The FAA deserves significant credit for making aviation as safe as it is.


My original comment stays as is, the FAA is a bad agency that shouldn’t be in existence. Create a new agency and give more power to the NTSB and aviation might get safer.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:58 pm

Dogman wrote:
The real problem is that for the shareholders maximum profit does not necessarily related to the company's long term health or even survival. The shareholders can press the BOD to adopt the policies that will push the share price higher, by taking more out of the company and investing less in the company, even if it comes at the expense of the company's future. Before the things started to go bad they just sell their shares and let some other, less savvy investors to take the losses. That's why it is much better when the system designed the way that the company is functioning in stakeholders best interests, not shareholders only.


I have stated this exact sentiment many times about what I call "vulture capitalism". The rules of business have changed since the era of the Gilded-Age capitalists. Those men may have been equally as greedy, but their number one goal was the long term viability of the company they founded. No such desire exists today - one gets in, secures his/her golden parachute and other payment forms, does what he/she can to maximize profit in the very short term, assists in ruining the company, destroys the business and all those involved, walks away unscathed, and says, "where's my bonus for doing a great job?"

This is what capitalism has become - privatized gains but socialized losses. Boeing still has magnificent engineers and construction employees working for it - but they are seen only as obstacles to huge amounts of profit, what with their whining and complaining about things like "safety" and "making enough money to live on". The avaricious Ferengi-like executives who have allowed 300+ people to die because "that safety equipment cuts into our profit" are no different from any other company whose motto has become "profit above sustainability".

To me, "executives" of this type are leeches on capitalism: taking only for themselves, killing the host, and claiming, "that's what free enterprise is made of!". No, it's not. It's a cancer that is, quite literally, killing people. But cancer isn't supposed to survive the death of its host. It's supposed to die with it. This cancer jumps from place to place, destroying everything it touches, and then moves on to the next business it knows nothing about.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:53 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
Let's put Boeing aside for a minute and go after the real villain, the FAA. They should be disbanded and it's top officials arrested for mass murder, not just for the MAX 8 accidents but for many other crashes in history that could've been prevented with proper oversight/action. The FAA has a lot of blood on it's hands and it concerns me no one is taking action against them or looking to abolish the agency.


I have a feeling that you have never met an engineer working for the FAA on airplane certification. You can say whatever you want regarding bureaucracy, but I am pretty confident that the FAA has more technical expertise on airplane design than any other regulatory agency in the world. The FAA deserves significant credit for making aviation as safe as it is.


My original comment stays as is, the FAA is a bad agency that shouldn’t be in existence. Create a new agency and give more power to the NTSB and aviation might get safer.


The NTSB only does a tiny segment of work regarding safety compared to the aircraft certification office at the FAA. Renaming an agency won’t help. They are very experienced and skilled engineers working on everything from rule making and reviewing design and repairs. Accident investigation is just one part of safety. Proper design, manufacturing , operation and repairs are critical.
 
NightStar
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:57 pm

PM wrote:
Can't argue with any of this. But in a sense, Boeing is a victim of something even bigger. Rampant capitalism is out of control (beyond control?) and is behind most of our current woes - destruction of the environment, inequality, corruption, degradation of public services, loss of faith in democracy. I could go on. Condit, Stonecipher and gang were just going with the flow. Making money is all that counts.


Pure biased drivel.

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives.

And besides, there is precious little "capitalism" in the world today. Even in the USA there is a great deal of cronyism and government meddling that has led to myriad problems.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:00 pm

NightStar wrote:
PM wrote:
Can't argue with any of this. But in a sense, Boeing is a victim of something even bigger. Rampant capitalism is out of control (beyond control?) and is behind most of our current woes - destruction of the environment, inequality, corruption, degradation of public services, loss of faith in democracy. I could go on. Condit, Stonecipher and gang were just going with the flow. Making money is all that counts.


Pure biased drivel.

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives. And for that matter, the capitalist countries are FAR cleaner, FAR wealthier, FAR less corrupt, and FAR freer than ANY other places on earth.

And besides, there is precious little "capitalism" in the world today. Even in the USA there is a great deal of cronyism and government meddling that has led to myriad problems.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:01 pm

NightStar wrote:
NightStar wrote:
PM wrote:
Can't argue with any of this. But in a sense, Boeing is a victim of something even bigger. Rampant capitalism is out of control (beyond control?) and is behind most of our current woes - destruction of the environment, inequality, corruption, degradation of public services, loss of faith in democracy. I could go on. Condit, Stonecipher and gang were just going with the flow. Making money is all that counts.


Pure biased drivel.

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives. And for that matter, the capitalist countries are FAR cleaner, FAR wealthier, FAR less corrupt, and FAR freer than ANY other places on earth.

And besides, there is precious little "capitalism" in the world today. Even in the USA there is a great deal of cronyism and government meddling that has led to myriad problems.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:14 pm

This thread is pure libel and I hope Boeing's lawyers are watching to get this thread deleted.
 
planecane
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:38 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
sometimes a company can exists with the goal of doing stuff for the common good. it's folks accomplishing collectively what they can't individually. no one is getting rich. you approach some of your activities as a zero-sum game. not quite charity, not quite philanthropy, just a focus on your product (something meaningful and good) above profit. you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.


No multi national corporation can exist like this. In order to become a company in the Boeing size range, large investment is required. To attract investors requires a focus on profit and shareholder value. What you describe is socialism/communism. If that was the way to go then the Soviet manufacturers would have become dominant.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:10 am

seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?

I have seen this argument so many times and it is just pure, unadulterated BS.

Does anyone for a second think that William Edward Boeing one day woke up and said: "I had a vision! I was surrounded by shareholders who demanded that I should please them! Wonderful! Quickly - I have to do something, to get a company going, so I can get some shareholders that i can please! This is my vision!"

William Edward Boeing had a vision that he would make great airplanes. The best airplanes, he hoped.
This is the sole reason Boeing exists as a company.

No company except hedge-funds exist for the purpose of pleasing the shareholders.
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:49 am

Very good discussion! The world, especially America needs to be having more of this. The filthy elite at the top have consolidated everything and yet their greed continues unabated. Boeing is a five alarm fire, will we hear the alarms?

Re: FAA Regulation is 100% needed, whether its the environment, pharma, education, in this case aviation.. you'd have to been insane or quite lost to think we would get far without it. However, in todays world, we have gone so far that human greed has perpetrated every single facet from the floor to the ceiling. We now have the regulated regulating themselves and then advising the regulators. No no no! This is insanity. The current administration will do everything it can to continue burning Rome and I am sure the FAA is underfunded, everything is (except those tax breaks for the highest of all income earners).

I travel a lot, and I hope, that the recent attitude from the FAA, which has basically been to call Boeing out almost daily, distancing themselves (it appears) and recognizing, without them doing their jobs, the system wont stay afloat at all, even for those same greed-mongers.
If I am wrong about that, then this country at least is far to gone for repair, and I am truly sorry to the rest of the world, because its up to them now to sort society out and with maybe 10 years to do it.
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:56 am

The corrupt USA business elites never change, despite ever more disasters looming. Corporate culture elsewhere are far better. You never see EADS mess up in such extent.

After stealing everything, USA managers call themselves "talent, hardworking, genius", when branding everyone else losers.
Last edited by SQ32 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:11 am

SEPilot wrote:
Read Adam Smith. Everyone working for their own best interest works for the best interest of the whole.


That is an opinion, not a fact. Simple thought experiments such as the prisoners’ dilemma or tragedy of the commons show how easily this can fail to be the case.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:43 am

I work in a different country, different company, different technology, yet reading this article I could simply replace some of the places, names, dates and products, but the story will read the same. I agree with the comments that a purely capitalist mentality which incentivizes short-term thinking is ultimately a race to the bottom. It takes self-less leaders with courage and experience in the industry to drive the right cultures.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:57 am

USA is never capitalism, more like fuedalism masquerading as democracy instead. All corrupt corporations are supposed be punished by bankruptcy. USA will never allow TBTF Boeing to go bankrupt.

All corporate leaders are above the law. No one will go after Boeing.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:56 am

hilram wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?

I have seen this argument so many times and it is just pure, unadulterated BS.

Does anyone for a second think that William Edward Boeing one day woke up and said: "I had a vision! I was surrounded by shareholders who demanded that I should please them! Wonderful! Quickly - I have to do something, to get a company going, so I can get some shareholders that i can please! This is my vision!"

William Edward Boeing had a vision that he would make great airplanes. The best airplanes, he hoped.
This is the sole reason Boeing exists as a company.

No company except hedge-funds exist for the purpose of pleasing the shareholders.


Well, he was one of 2 shareholders of the company at the time and his vision surely included making money with those great airplanes. So yes, his vision included pleasing the shareholders. To be honest every company wants to please their shareholders, because it means being profitable which means being in a position to survive long term.

The problem is rather the stock market driven form of leading a company, which only looks at short time results and not long time results. This leads to the problems we are seeing, as the long term effects of any decision are no longer the driving factor behind the decision.
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:02 am

NightStar wrote:

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives.



Russian socialism in the beginning was very successful. Russia industrialized rapidly. That's why the ideology was tried to be copied. However the improvements of many were bought by suffering of quite a few. But if the socialists had not to kill the feudal masters the masters would have organized a Vienna Congress or a 1849 counter-revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_Restoration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

Moreover Stalin sold grains to food deficient Western Europe in exchange for machines to industrialize. The Holdomor had a double advantage for Stalin: destroy Ukrainian independence movement and have more grains to export. And the threat of Gulag made sure people worked. I believe it was only after Khrushchev that socialism failed. Maybe earlier leaders were true socialists while later leaders were more opportunists? But I don't know this.
Even though I believe the average Russian under Khrushchev was far better of than the average Russian in feudal bondage before the October revolution.
And when Lenin saw that some of his measures didn't work he even proposed to allow for capitalist elements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy
A socialist that believes in evidence! Who would have imagined? Unfortunately he died in 1924.
I do agree that capitalism with functioning government oversight is best.

Should we judge by 2019 Western standards or by 1917 Russian standards?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:01 pm

Sokes wrote:
NightStar wrote:

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives.



Russian socialism in the beginning was very successful. Russia industrialized rapidly. That's why the ideology was tried to be copied. However the improvements of many were bought by suffering of quite a few. But if the socialists had not to kill the feudal masters the masters would have organized a Vienna Congress or a 1849 counter-revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_Restoration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

Moreover Stalin sold grains to food deficient Western Europe in exchange for machines to industrialize. The Holdomor had a double advantage for Stalin: destroy Ukrainian independence movement and have more grains to export. And the threat of Gulag made sure people worked. I believe it was only after Khrushchev that socialism failed. Maybe earlier leaders were true socialists while later leaders were more opportunists? But I don't know this.
Even though I believe the average Russian under Khrushchev was far better of than the average Russian in feudal bondage before the October revolution.
And when Lenin saw that some of his measures didn't work he even proposed to allow for capitalist elements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy
A socialist that believes in evidence! Who would have imagined? Unfortunately he died in 1924.
I do agree that capitalism with functioning government oversight is best.

Should we judge by 2019 Western standards or by 1917 Russian standards?


Well, we could start judging by 1945 United Nations standards. Trying to copy your own arguments:

For example, 1933-1945 German industrial effort was initially lauded as very successful. Many voices in the West lauded it and suggested to copy it. Germany bought grains and built tanks and Autobahn system. The Holocaust had a double advantage for Hitler: destroy Jews as "internal enemies of Germany" and have more property to loot. And the threat of Dachau made sure people worked. I believe, it was after aluminium overcast by Royal Air Force (at night) and USAAF (at day) and Eastern Front meatgrinder (round the clock) that National socialism failed.
And thank God we did not get to find out, if earlier leaders were true national socialists, or later ones would have been more opportunistic. It would be a horrible world, were we to find out.
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caljn
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:15 pm

If nothing else the MAX situation has provided A.net a series of hysterical, tabloid thread titles.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:53 pm

caljn wrote:
If nothing else the MAX situation has provided A.net a series of hysterical, tabloid thread titles.


Sadly, a.net is the least of the issues created by the MAX.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:03 pm

NightStar wrote:
PM wrote:
Can't argue with any of this. But in a sense, Boeing is a victim of something even bigger. Rampant capitalism is out of control (beyond control?) and is behind most of our current woes - destruction of the environment, inequality, corruption, degradation of public services, loss of faith in democracy. I could go on. Condit, Stonecipher and gang were just going with the flow. Making money is all that counts.


Pure biased drivel.

Socialism and totalitarian systems have brought about human suffering on an immense scale. Capitalism and economic freedom is the only thing that ever improved human lives.

And besides, there is precious little "capitalism" in the world today. Even in the USA there is a great deal of cronyism and government meddling that has led to myriad problems.

Human life has improved with technology. Capitalism existed in the days when human life was not so great. The problem with arguing for freedom is that often people want so much that they overstep into the freedom of someone else which is where freedom is suppose to stop. How about capitalist for profit healthcare? Don’t they make more money when more people are sick? Is that good?

Someone could say yours is pure biased drivel as you haven’t offered any real evidence to counter the claim that capitalism has run rampant with corporations causing environmental damage, killing people, and tampering with the democratic process, all of which things that have been seen to be true in one case or another. You say it’s wrong therefore it is? In a capitalist society you are bound to have the same cronyism and government corruption as you would in another system, the only counter is the judiciary and democracy which seem to be beginning to fail.

To talk about Socialism requires an understanding of it but you have just blended it in with totalitarianism. They can be blended in communism A for example but they don’t have to be.

I argue that all economic systems are just a pyramid scheme for a few people. Some have a better quality of life for most than others and some bring about other implications because the government has too much control, but they’re all pretty bad. The only way to fix the world is get rid monetary value and currency all together and when people don’t want to work anymore automate. This of course is a pipe dream and has many unanswered questions so instead we sit where we are at where corporations like Boeing can have the blood of so many on their hands and not get punished just because they wanted the shareholders to be happy.
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767333ER
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
This thread is pure libel and I hope Boeing's lawyers are watching to get this thread deleted.

But we aren’t publishing anything subject to that sort of law to be punished by it. A.net is not an official publication by any stretch of the imagination. Are you advocating for legal action on what people say on Facebook comment threads too? I sure hope you are because that’s equivalent to this. Nice try, but so far off. Maybe your Congressman can help you with this one since they couldn’t help with DL ordering Airbus. Maybe you could become one of Boeing’s lawyers; in fact, you could become their only lawyer that way the higher-ups there could all be sent to prison where they belong.

I have a couple of ideas for you: Get an education OR move to a totalitarian fascists or communist nation, you’d love it because what you want here is what they do there.
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2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:22 pm

Blerg wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?


To please its customers?


To do no harm. If there were any ethics in modern capitalism that would and should be the primary consideration, but we see how far we are from that state of mind!
 
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:32 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
This thread is pure libel and I hope Boeing's lawyers are watching to get this thread deleted.


Fool's comment of the day right here! :roll:
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:11 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Read Adam Smith. Everyone working for their own best interest works for the best interest of the whole.


That is an opinion, not a fact. Simple thought experiments such as the prisoners’ dilemma or tragedy of the commons show how easily this can fail to be the case.


I just want to make sure this gets seconded. It's more like a myth, even, than an opinion. There is no "invisible hand."

Probably the most important lesson game theory teaches is that there is no collective rationality. Individual persons are the only rational entities. Each individual acting strictly rationally (as they see rationality) does not necessarily -- or often -- produce rational behavior by society at large..
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:08 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Sokes wrote:
...
Should we judge by 2019 Western standards or by 1917 Russian standards?


Well, we could start judging by 1945 United Nations standards. Trying to copy your own arguments:

For example, 1933-1945 German industrial effort was initially lauded as very successful. Many voices in the West lauded it and suggested to copy it. Germany bought grains and built tanks and Autobahn system. The Holocaust had a double advantage for Hitler: destroy Jews as "internal enemies of Germany" and have more property to loot. And the threat of Dachau made sure people worked. I believe, it was after aluminium overcast by Royal Air Force (at night) and USAAF (at day) and Eastern Front meatgrinder (round the clock) that National socialism failed.
And thank God we did not get to find out, if earlier leaders were true national socialists, or later ones would have been more opportunistic. It would be a horrible world, were we to find out.


If one reads "Mein Kampf" it is surprising how some pages of original, intelligent thought are followed on the next page by paranoid bullshit.
That apart National Socialism was bad by design. Looking down on others, harming Jews, the right of the stronger...
However Germans voting for Hitler was also a logical choice. The party's economic expert Gottfried Feder demanded long before the Great Recession to print money to finance infrastructure projects. All other parties stuck to gold standard ideology even when unemployment caused horrible suffering. That Feder wasn't made a minister once the party came to power is typical for Hitler the traitor. Roehm should have spent some thought over it. But those who admire Roosevelt can hardly blame Germans who voted for Feder.
Indeed today's monetary policy makes one wonder if Feder finally got his way.

The German Mark under Hitler wasn't the world's reserve currency. When he started the war German government debt was so high he couln't have continued with deficit spending much longer. So if people lauded the Autobahn they simply didn't see the full picture.
My mother was born in Munich in 1941. She did spend time in the cellar when the bombers flew over. But I also believe the bombing campaign was a success and was necessary. Obviously I believe in an ethics of responsibility and not in ethics of ultimate ends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_end

When Macchiavelli wrote "The Prince" he describes it as an effort to describe what he has observed in his diplomatic career. He wrote that his intention is not to comment if it is good or bad. It's only about evidence, not about judgement.
If people can prove his observations wrong it's well and good. But to refuse to consider his evidence just because it is unmoralistic doesn't help to understand history.
I didn't mean to advertise socialism. I live in India, so I know what human cost socialism causes. I just described the rather untypical success socialism had in it's early stages.

1945 UN standards would have described 1917 Russian serfdom as a right of Russia to self determination.
I believe next to socialism "self determination" was the second great 20th century ideology which wasn't supported by evidence.
So I disagree that 1945 UN standards are so great.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:18 pm

planecane wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
sometimes a company can exists with the goal of doing stuff for the common good. it's folks accomplishing collectively what they can't individually. no one is getting rich. you approach some of your activities as a zero-sum game. not quite charity, not quite philanthropy, just a focus on your product (something meaningful and good) above profit. you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.


No multi national corporation can exist like this. In order to become a company in the Boeing size range, large investment is required. To attract investors requires a focus on profit and shareholder value. What you describe is socialism/communism. If that was the way to go then the Soviet manufacturers would have become dominant.


Yeah, I know... That's why I said I'm a dreamer......
learning never stops.
 
airzona11
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:22 pm

hilram wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?

I have seen this argument so many times and it is just pure, unadulterated BS.

Does anyone for a second think that William Edward Boeing one day woke up and said: "I had a vision! I was surrounded by shareholders who demanded that I should please them! Wonderful! Quickly - I have to do something, to get a company going, so I can get some shareholders that i can please! This is my vision!"

William Edward Boeing had a vision that he would make great airplanes. The best airplanes, he hoped.
This is the sole reason Boeing exists as a company.

No company except hedge-funds exist for the purpose of pleasing the shareholders.


No company other than a sole proprietorship would exist without the dollar and resource value from shareholders. People (shareholders) believed in Boeing and thus gave and continue to give them financial resources. That is why Boeing exists. Shareholders.
 
airzona11
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:24 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
planecane wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
sometimes a company can exists with the goal of doing stuff for the common good. it's folks accomplishing collectively what they can't individually. no one is getting rich. you approach some of your activities as a zero-sum game. not quite charity, not quite philanthropy, just a focus on your product (something meaningful and good) above profit. you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.


No multi national corporation can exist like this. In order to become a company in the Boeing size range, large investment is required. To attract investors requires a focus on profit and shareholder value. What you describe is socialism/communism. If that was the way to go then the Soviet manufacturers would have become dominant.


Yeah, I know... That's why I said I'm a dreamer......


But that does exist today. Company profits are either distributed to those whose capital is at risk in the form of dividends among other things or invested back into the business to keep propelling the business forward towards their goal. Why is their a mantra on here that companies are inherently malicious or evil?
 
airzona11
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:28 pm

spinotter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?


To please its customers?


To do no harm. If there were any ethics in modern capitalism that would and should be the primary consideration, but we see how far we are from that state of mind!


Look at all of the coporations that were involved in your abillity to type on device, share it to the internet, discussing consumer goods, and to opine about them from the comforts of your home, car, place of work, wherever. Evil corporations galore! Come on now.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:42 pm

Unfortunately, incompetent leadership was a major factor in this mess. I thought for sure, Boeing would make dramatic changes after the 787 rollout mess. Then when the top brass in Chicago decided to wage war against it's union employees and the strike of 08, the writing was on the wall.

I think McNerney holds alot of the blame for what we see today. Man, I remember when Boeing would roll out the best built machines money could buy. Outsourcing most of their engineering, factory workers, and branching out a majority of what was once built in house was when things really got out of control.

The lean manufacturing program that they really pushed hard for to save money really started hurting production.

I think Boeing needs to revamp itself to survive. Starting with moving it's headquarters back to Seattle for starters. Bringing back a majority of how things were before this mess started. I was there to witness this first hand, and it was so painful to see. I wish the best for Boeing. I really do. But!! Boeing cannot survive if there isn't a major revamp of the company. It's safe to look back and say they bit off more than they could chew.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:03 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/

This article will not be of any surprise to longtime readers of a.net. It is short and to the point. Boeing out and out no longer wanted to be an engineering company, but rather a Wall Street Darling. So it has become. I wrote a somewhat similar letter to a Seattle Times Business writer at the time. He largely plagiarized my entire letter without any credit at all (he was subsequently fired for other plagarisms, but was a great writer). My main point in the letter was that if Boeing wanted to be a first class air-frame maker they needed to sell of the commercial division and move its executives back to Seattle. I still think that is true. (actually even South Carolina would be better than Chicago, where, unfortunately it is so much at home)


Great article! I will definitely use for contemporary inmy management course on Organizational Equity and perception.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:25 pm

airzona11 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Blerg wrote:

To please its customers?


To do no harm. If there were any ethics in modern capitalism that would and should be the primary consideration, but we see how far we are from that state of mind!


Look at all of the coporations that were involved in your abillity to type on device, share it to the internet, discussing consumer goods, and to opine about them from the comforts of your home, car, place of work, wherever. Evil corporations galore! Come on now.


Yes, obviously. But look at the CO2 level in our atmosphere, the billions of plastic nanoparticles in the Arctic, the burning down of the Amazon, deadly smogs in Delhi, the death of all coral reefs, and how many more examples do you need? DO NO HARM!!! Hah!
 
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spinotter
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:29 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Dogman wrote:
The real problem is that for the shareholders maximum profit does not necessarily related to the company's long term health or even survival. The shareholders can press the BOD to adopt the policies that will push the share price higher, by taking more out of the company and investing less in the company, even if it comes at the expense of the company's future. Before the things started to go bad they just sell their shares and let some other, less savvy investors to take the losses. That's why it is much better when the system designed the way that the company is functioning in stakeholders best interests, not shareholders only.


I have stated this exact sentiment many times about what I call "vulture capitalism". The rules of business have changed since the era of the Gilded-Age capitalists. Those men may have been equally as greedy, but their number one goal was the long term viability of the company they founded. No such desire exists today - one gets in, secures his/her golden parachute and other payment forms, does what he/she can to maximize profit in the very short term, assists in ruining the company, destroys the business and all those involved, walks away unscathed, and says, "where's my bonus for doing a great job?"

This is what capitalism has become - privatized gains but socialized losses. Boeing still has magnificent engineers and construction employees working for it - but they are seen only as obstacles to huge amounts of profit, what with their whining and complaining about things like "safety" and "making enough money to live on". The avaricious Ferengi-like executives who have allowed 300+ people to die because "that safety equipment cuts into our profit" are no different from any other company whose motto has become "profit above sustainability".

To me, "executives" of this type are leeches on capitalism: taking only for themselves, killing the host, and claiming, "that's what free enterprise is made of!". No, it's not. It's a cancer that is, quite literally, killing people. But cancer isn't supposed to survive the death of its host. It's supposed to die with it. This cancer jumps from place to place, destroying everything it touches, and then moves on to the next business it knows nothing about.


Great post. If only everyone thought like you, there might be an outcome less grim than what I suspect is happening to us. But don't worry, this cancer will eventually kill its host, and its host is the human race. Maybe all other eukaryotic life as well?
 
Sokes
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:44 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
sometimes a company can exists with the goal of doing stuff for the common good. it's folks accomplishing collectively what they can't individually. no one is getting rich. you approach some of your activities as a zero-sum game. not quite charity, not quite philanthropy, just a focus on your product (something meaningful and good) above profit. you may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.


Elon Musk said he didn't believe Tesla to succeed. But if an idea is important enough one still has to try.
Most first movers don't succeed. So why are there still first movers?
If a man has plenty of money, why would he work just to make more money? While most rich may not ask themselves this question, some do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Pledge

A capitalist whose products satisfy some real need, who makes sure that his employees have a secure live and who reinvests most profits is a social worker.
But why should Andrew Carnegie, Elon Musk or Bill Gates have missed the chance to become rich?

So you are not a dreamer and you are indeed not the only one.
The problem is probably that most good people start sharing too early. Carnegie did some immoral stuff, Gates didn't believe in competition. They worked hard to become rich. They could have been more generous with employees or could have reduced prices of their products. Which is what you suggest. And which is great if the products serve poor people or if employees are in the low income group.
Is it better to raise salaries of low income employees or is it better to reinvest profits?
Carnegie/ Gates/ Musk were greedy in early life to have the resources to do good in later life.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
dstblj52
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:25 am

airzona11 wrote:
hilram wrote:
seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?

I have seen this argument so many times and it is just pure, unadulterated BS.

Does anyone for a second think that William Edward Boeing one day woke up and said: "I had a vision! I was surrounded by shareholders who demanded that I should please them! Wonderful! Quickly - I have to do something, to get a company going, so I can get some shareholders that i can please! This is my vision!"

William Edward Boeing had a vision that he would make great airplanes. The best airplanes, he hoped.
This is the sole reason Boeing exists as a company.

No company except hedge-funds exist for the purpose of pleasing the shareholders.


No company other than a sole proprietorship would exist without the dollar and resource value from shareholders. People (shareholders) believed in Boeing and thus gave and continue to give them financial resources. That is why Boeing exists. Shareholders.

This worshipping of shareholders is false, as only the original shareholders actually supported Boeing in its mission and objects, essentially venture capital. Most shareholders bought shares from other shareholders, generally hoping to get returns extremely rapidly, and are more focused on today's metrics then the long term. https://www.forbes.com/sites/sageworks/ ... a04edc552e, besides for companies like boeing a few big shareholders, who grew up in the business would likely be better, than these exGE types, who are extremely good at generating shareholder value for a while, but because they under invest in the business itself, eventually they have to start selling of parts of the business, and then finally die. Boeing is not the first time this has happened, and I have to say i suspect boeing will go the same way.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:31 am

hivue wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Read Adam Smith. Everyone working for their own best interest works for the best interest of the whole.


That is an opinion, not a fact. Simple thought experiments such as the prisoners’ dilemma or tragedy of the commons show how easily this can fail to be the case.


I just want to make sure this gets seconded. It's more like a myth, even, than an opinion. There is no "invisible hand."

Probably the most important lesson game theory teaches is that there is no collective rationality. Individual persons are the only rational entities. Each individual acting strictly rationally (as they see rationality) does not necessarily -- or often -- produce rational behavior by society at large..

But it almost always produces a better outcome than any other system. As Winston Churchill once said, Democracy is an absolutely terrible form of government-except in comparison to everything else that’s been tried.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Sokes
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:24 am

dstblj52 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
hilram wrote:
...
Does anyone for a second think that William Edward Boeing one day woke up and said: "I had a vision! I was surrounded by shareholders who demanded that I should please them!...
...
No company except hedge-funds exist for the purpose of pleasing the shareholders.


No company other than a sole proprietorship would exist without the dollar and resource value from shareholders. People (shareholders) believed in Boeing and thus gave and continue to give them financial resources. That is why Boeing exists. Shareholders.


This worshipping of shareholders is false, as only the original shareholders actually supported Boeing in its mission and objects, essentially venture capital. Most shareholders bought shares from other shareholders, generally hoping to get returns extremely rapidly, ... besides for companies like boeing a few big shareholders, who grew up in the business would likely be better, than these exGE types, who are extremely good at generating shareholder value for a while, but because they under invest in the business itself, eventually they have to start selling of parts of the business, and then finally die. Boeing is not the first time this has happened, and I have to say i suspect boeing will go the same way.


Pity you joined only one week back. I'm looking forward for more posts of you.
A lot of German economy is based on family owned enterprises, especially a lot of "hidden champions". Companies who are not very big, have a very limited product range and belong to the top three or so in the world in their field of business.
But I believe there was a time joint stock companies worked good. Remove bonuses and they will start functioning properly again.
I believe people who think eight hours sleep, one hour sport and twelve hours work per day is fun are anyway ambitious to be the best. Bonuses spoil them.

Your link made me think of Carnegie: In the first third of life become as smart as possible. In the second third as rich as possible and in the last third of life become poor again by giving away your wealth.
https://www.carnegie.org/about/our-hist ... lofwealth/
However if having a dozen luxury cars is considered bad taste several generations in one business is also good.
Is it better?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2700
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Re: Crime and Corruption (add incompetence) At Boeing

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:02 am

seahawk wrote:
What other purpose does a company have than to please the shareholders?


1: Customers
2: Employees
3: Managers
4: Shareholders

In that order. That is, if you have any ambitions of lasting more than a few years. Turn it upside down, you're exchanging long-time viability for short-term profitability.
Signature. You just read one.

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