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ThomasCook
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'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:14 pm

 
tootallsd
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:19 pm

Reagan National operating normally.
 
MainelyRick
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 pm

Let's give Airliners.net some big credibility points by using this news in a factual manner. I sure would like to get info via some of the true experts that hang around here rather than some of the traditional news sources.
 
codc10
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:28 pm

Someone probably inadvertently busted the ADIZ...
 
dtremit
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:33 pm

codc10 wrote:
Someone probably inadvertently busted the ADIZ...


Looks like you are correct:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ ... 57f5225168

The White House was put on a brief lockdown this morning after an aircraft entered restricted airspace in the Washington, DC, area.

That lockdown has now been lifted. Everyone is able to move throughout the complex.
 
26point2
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:41 pm

ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:49 pm

26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.

Yeah, it sounds like a TFR.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:01 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.

Yeah, it sounds like a TFR.

Washington DC doesn’t use Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFR) for the normal airspace protections. There is the Special Flight Rules Area (SFRA) that covers anything within a rough 60nm radius of DCA. Then the Flight Restricted Zone (FRZ) that covers anything within roughly a 30 NM radius of DCA. Finally the Prohibited area P-56, which covers the National Mall (White House, Capitol, Lincoln Memorial) and the Vice Presidents house. The areas have a progressive amount of restrictions, rules and reactions that take place for non compliant aircraft in these zones and heading towards downtown.
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aeropix
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:11 pm

26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.


Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable. In recent years I guess they changed the name to Flight Restricted Zone to lend it an air of permanence but I remember getting special training years after 9/11 when it was still called a TFR.

On a related note, the restricted airspace around the Disney Parks, those are operating as an ADIZ that they somehow still call them TFR almost 20 years later...
 
oflanigan
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:34 pm

DC SFRA to be accurate.
 
estorilm
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:41 pm

aeropix wrote:
26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.


Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable. In recent years I guess they changed the name to Flight Restricted Zone to lend it an air of permanence but I remember getting special training years after 9/11 when it was still called a TFR.

On a related note, the restricted airspace around the Disney Parks, those are operating as an ADIZ that they somehow still call them TFR almost 20 years later...

It's just the SFRA as noted above - anyone who flies around the local airports in the area and Northern VA etc are VERY VERY familiar with the rules of the SFRA - just kinda a way of life out here. Luckily Leesburg has a cut-out for it it, otherwise GA would be really difficult around Loudoun Co / Northern VA.
 
Jshank83
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:48 pm

Have we heard what aircraft this was?
 
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DL717
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:50 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Have we heard what aircraft this was?


Probably some Ding-Dong in a piston.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:55 pm

aeropix wrote:
26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.


Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable.

Except the ADIZ refers to something very specific. You could say the area around DC is a zone for air defense and identification, technically, but to my knowledge ADIZ refers only to our borders (and many other countries use something similar.) How we treat aircraft approaching our borders (ADIZ) and how they approach DC (the SFRA) may have similarities but they're two different airspaces

And yes, it's hardly temporary (TFR) and the SFRA applies, but it is also listed as a TFR. Link to the TFR itself:

https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_1_1155.html

I believe the TFR is there as an additional reminder to pilots so they are less likely to screw things up
 
Jshank83
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:56 pm

Soooo basically Aliens.. :lol:
___________________________________

@ChadPergram
Fox is told that they got “mixed signals at best” as to what the potential aircraft could have been in DC. One source said they were never sure there was actually an aircraft involved. Fox is told the radar was showing “different sectors” as to where the threat was coming from
 
codc10
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:26 pm

The term ADIZ, specifically as it relates to the "DC ADIZ", is used interchangeably with the DC SFRA. Technically, I guess it's anachronistic to refer to it as the ADIZ now since it was replaced by SFRA about a decade ago, but if you ask anyone in the GA community in the Mid Atlantic region, they'll instantly know what you're talking about.

Anyway, the point is, if you come within the 30nm ring around DCA (subject to limited exceptions) without any or all of: (1) a filed flight plan; (2) a discrete transponder code; (3) having followed specific entry procedures; (4) following speed restrictions; and (5) two-way contact with ATC; you're running a high rick of interception. I suspect that's what happened in this case.

It's rare, but there are times when aircraft unsuspectingly enter the airspace inside 30nm of DCA. I'm not sure whether this instance was a FRZ intrusion. If an unknown aircraft made it within the FRZ with no radio contact, it might not have ended well.
 
CaptHadley
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:21 am

DL717 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Have we heard what aircraft this was?


Probably some Ding-Dong in a piston.

:old: :lol: Seriously, what is a “Ding-Dong”? That has got to be something someone said who grew up in the 50’s
 
FLDude
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:43 am

CaptHadley wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Probably some Ding-Dong in a piston.

:old: :lol: Seriously, what is a “Ding-Dong”? That has got to be something someone said who grew up in the 50’s


A Ding Dong is kind of like a dingbat.

Absent minded, not paying attention, or just picked the wrong week to quit smoking.
Last edited by FLDude on Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 am

Chasing ghosts? Perhaps of presidents past?
 
NiMar
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:04 am

Saw a news headline about a flock of geese but didn't read it.
 
32andBelow
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:16 am

aeropix wrote:
26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.


Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable. In recent years I guess they changed the name to Flight Restricted Zone to lend it an air of permanence but I remember getting special training years after 9/11 when it was still called a TFR.

On a related note, the restricted airspace around the Disney Parks, those are operating as an ADIZ that they somehow still call them TFR almost 20 years later...

It’s not an adiz. It’s not accurate. Adiz are miles off the coast. Not over land. You can fly over an adiz. You can even be VFR if you file the appropriate flight plan
 
codc10
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:27 pm

32andBelow wrote:
aeropix wrote:
26point2 wrote:
ADIZ? I thought we called it a TFR. ADIZ runs around the perimeter of contiguous US.


Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable. In recent years I guess they changed the name to Flight Restricted Zone to lend it an air of permanence but I remember getting special training years after 9/11 when it was still called a TFR.

On a related note, the restricted airspace around the Disney Parks, those are operating as an ADIZ that they somehow still call them TFR almost 20 years later...

It’s not an adiz. It’s not accurate. Adiz are miles off the coast. Not over land. You can fly over an adiz. You can even be VFR if you file the appropriate flight plan


When it actually was an ADIZ over DC, the procedure (and the response to an unauthorized aircraft) was virtually identical.

Being this pedantic is silly.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:03 pm

codc10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
aeropix wrote:

Well, the thing is, I think that title can apply. Operationally, It is, after all, operating exactly as an ADIZ, or Air Defense Identification Zone and so in my opinion that title could be an appropriate description.

On the other hand, there was absolutely nothing "Temporary" about the "TFR" in that area (or over Disneyland for that matter) and so I think the misuse of the name for that airspace was woefully laughable. In recent years I guess they changed the name to Flight Restricted Zone to lend it an air of permanence but I remember getting special training years after 9/11 when it was still called a TFR.

On a related note, the restricted airspace around the Disney Parks, those are operating as an ADIZ that they somehow still call them TFR almost 20 years later...

It’s not an adiz. It’s not accurate. Adiz are miles off the coast. Not over land. You can fly over an adiz. You can even be VFR if you file the appropriate flight plan


When it actually was an ADIZ over DC, the procedure (and the response to an unauthorized aircraft) was virtually identical.

Being this pedantic is silly.

It's not silly, because it isn't the same thing. The SFRA and FRZ have specific rules and requirements different from an ADIZ. They didn't create different terminologies to be pedantic, they created them for differentiation.
 
dcaviation
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:12 pm

In the news this morning they've said that the USCG helicopter was dispatched to intercept the "blimp" on the radar, but they couldn't find anything.
It shows you that they didn't care what was flying above DC because they've sent CG Daulphin :)
 
codc10
Posts: 2872
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Re: 'Unresponsive Aircraft' DC Area

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:23 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
codc10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It’s not an adiz. It’s not accurate. Adiz are miles off the coast. Not over land. You can fly over an adiz. You can even be VFR if you file the appropriate flight plan


When it actually was an ADIZ over DC, the procedure (and the response to an unauthorized aircraft) was virtually identical.

Being this pedantic is silly.

It's not silly, because it isn't the same thing. The SFRA and FRZ have specific rules and requirements different from an ADIZ. They didn't create different terminologies to be pedantic, they created them for differentiation.


Until 2008, the SFRA (which didn’t exist until then) was specifically referred to as the DC ADIZ in official publications. 2008 was when the NOTAM was replaced with a regulation. That reg merely codified essentially the same procedures that remain in effect today.

It’s an anachronistic, colloquial reference, and the insistence on correction is, I would say, a bit pedantic. With that said, I understand the interest in precision; but I note that “pedantic” does not mean “wrong.”

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