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ricardofg
Topic Author
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:57 am

2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub
 
wawaman
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:05 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:05 am

There has been some chatter about Air New Zealand over on the New Zealand Thread. NZ have added ORD this year and EWR in 2020. YYZ is a possibility I guess.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3399
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:07 am

ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


QR - I think bi-laterals are maxed out.
DY - Likely the most surprising that they aren’t there, but given their challenges I think even they realise they can’t find everywhere.
VS - Given they have been more like DL UK in the last few years, not really a surprise they have largely stuck to a standard playbook. Only now does it look to be exploring new options again for the future.
QF - Next to no chance. Doesn’t even fly year round to YVR.
SA - Really? No chance
SQ - Given their reluctance to fly to anywhere in Canada die to bi-lateral restrictions, not likely, but never say never for that one I guess.
 
ricardofg
Topic Author
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:12 am

With South African - I guess the feeling is Africa is largely untapped in YYZ. And surprisingly so. Demand exists, and a big demand in cargo. Someone should make the leap, no?
 
Luisvalero
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:14 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:36 am

ricardofg wrote:
With South African - I guess the feeling is Africa is largely untapped in YYZ. And surprisingly so. Demand exists, and a big demand in cargo. Someone should make the leap, no?


The answer is Ethiopian
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3399
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:38 am

ricardofg wrote:
With South African - I guess the feeling is Africa is largely untapped in YYZ. And surprisingly so. Demand exists, and a big demand in cargo. Someone should make the leap, no?


SA is hardly in a great position to try.

There are likely closer markets in Africa which could be far easier to launch flights from, but it’s a matter of whether volumes and yields justify it.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8483
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:17 pm

ricardofg wrote:
With South African - I guess the feeling is Africa is largely untapped in YYZ. And surprisingly so. Demand exists, and a big demand in cargo. Someone should make the leap, no?


You might want a carrier with better financial strength and relevant fleet size to 'make the leap.' Some leaps just lead to a fatal drop in a chasm.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8483
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:21 pm

ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore


As IndianicWorld notes, Canada is a restricted market with relatively few Open Skies agreements outside of the EU. One really can't talk about international expansion to Canada without knowing the status of relevant bilateral route authorities.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/air-blu ... #countries
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:37 pm

Biman (Bangaldesh airlines) is seeking approval to begin fifth-freedom flights from Dhaka to Toronto via Manchester. The flight will be operated by newly acquired 787-9.
It is still in the planning phase, so I do not expect the flight to start before mid to late 2020 at the latest.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-biman-adds-pair-of-9s-to-existing-787-8-fle-462316/
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:06 pm

In the last year, YYZ has been losing foreign airlines, not gaining them. (Austrian, Brussels airlines)

AC and it’s sweet deal with the GTAA is to blame, for the most part. SN was rumoured to want to leave YYZ for a while now. It always made more sense for them to switch to YUL, what with the French connection.

ricardofg wrote:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore


None of these airlines are likely to serve YYZ anytime soon.

SQ has identified YVR as a potential North American market. So that should happen in the short-medium term. I don’t see SIN-YYZ.

As for JNB, it will be AC who serves it, not SA.

The only one not in your list that might happen is NZ, but with them starting EWR on top of ORD, it’s highly unlikely they launch YYZ as well.

Also, an airline I see as possibly returning to YYZ is SU. Even with all the anti-Russia political sentiment in this country, there is still a business case for YYZ-Moscow. These two global cities should be linked. AC could also launch it, when/if they get more wide body frames.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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northstardc4m
Posts: 3412
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:56 pm

ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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SRQKEF
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:10 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:02 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.


Joon has been cancelled and is being re-integrated into AF proper.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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northstardc4m
Posts: 3412
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:04 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.


Joon has been cancelled and is being re-integrated into AF proper.


Yes right, hard to keep track sometimes.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:45 pm

northstardc4m wrote:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)


Chinese carriers are max out in the bilateral with Canada. With the current tensions, as well as our countries’ protectionist policies when it comes time to renegotiate, I doubt you’ll be seeing CA in YYZ anytime soon. Unless of course they cannibalize frequencies from YVR or YUL.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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northstardc4m
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Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:09 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)


Chinese carriers are max out in the bilateral with Canada. With the current tensions, as well as our countries’ protectionist policies when it comes time to renegotiate, I doubt you’ll be seeing CA in YYZ anytime soon.


Again 3-5 years, AC will be maxed out too if things return to decent relations, so a renegotiation for the benefit of both countries would be probable then... but if things stay cold then you might actually see reductions (not that I'd miss China Eastern that much).
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
YYZORD
Posts: 521
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:09 pm

NH for NRT-YYZ is a possibility as AC serves YYZ-HND, they want to grow north america routes at NRT where NH doesn't serve yet and YYZ is a major unserved market for NH and JL. However NH is more likely to launch due to their codeshare with AC.
 
AIRTRANSAT767
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:36 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:25 pm

I'm for all the companies that come to Toronto in 2020
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
EChid
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Keep in mind that many of these shifts are related to current JVs, with the theme being that AC prefers to be the metal operating out of YYZ and lets the other airlines into YUL. OS got shifted to open up a new route, and AC took over the YYZ one. Same for SN. Same for some LH frequencies, same for CA. Because of that, I think it's very unlikely we will see any of those airlines expand at YYZ.

If you want an airport to watch for expansion, I'd probably watch YUL as more 321LRs come online.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4460
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:01 am

YYZORD wrote:
NH for NRT-YYZ is a possibility as AC serves YYZ-HND, they want to grow north america routes at NRT where NH doesn't serve yet and YYZ is a major unserved market for NH and JL. However NH is more likely to launch due to their codeshare with AC.


Please move on. NH has no interest in YYZ at the moment and if they did, Japan would have allocated additional HND slots for Canada. Lastly where do you read that NH wants to grow NRT - they’ve literally shifted 70% of their America ops to Haneda. Starting Narita is not competitive when Haneda is the local airport of choice.
 
Kiwiandrew
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:25 am

While I think it would be several years away, I think NZ may eventually turn up at YYZ. A few months ago, I would have laughed at the idea, but they have actually mentioned it as a potential future destination... I suspect they will give ORD and the recently announce EWR services some time to bed in ( as they did with IAH before adding ORD) but I wouldn't be totally surprised if around 2022 they announced YYZ.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:57 am

EChid wrote:
Keep in mind that many of these shifts are related to current JVs, with the theme being that AC prefers to be the metal operating out of YYZ and lets the other airlines into YUL. OS got shifted to open up a new route, and AC took over the YYZ one. Same for SN. Same for some LH frequencies, same for CA. Because of that, I think it's very unlikely we will see any of those airlines expand at YYZ.

If you want an airport to watch for expansion, I'd probably watch YUL as more 321LRs come online.


One of the few accurate statements on here.

Growth is going to be almost entirely AC and WS moving forward, with maybe a couple new airlines popping up here or there. I especially don't see Star carriers starting, AC has actively been pushing them out (in the past year they have pushed out OS and SN and replaced them with their own services). YYZ is Air Canada's town, and they seem intent to keep it that way, much like AA does at DFW or DL at ATL for example.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1157
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:37 am

northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.


I don’t see VS returning to Canada - I do see WestJet operating to MAN from YYZ - as well as YVR and YYC in time. Not imminent, but it makes a lot of sense if Virgin Connect is what it appears to be.
 
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northstardc4m
Posts: 3412
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:01 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.


I don’t see VS returning to Canada - I do see WestJet operating to MAN from YYZ - as well as YVR and YYC in time. Not imminent, but it makes a lot of sense if Virgin Connect is what it appears to be.
When the Max is back in service both AC and WS UK services from YYZ will probably expand greatly... I expect MAN, GLA, EDI maybe BHM... One or both to all of them.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:03 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:

Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.


I don’t see VS returning to Canada - I do see WestJet operating to MAN from YYZ - as well as YVR and YYC in time. Not imminent, but it makes a lot of sense if Virgin Connect is what it appears to be.
When the Max is back in service both AC and WS UK services from YYZ will probably expand greatly... I expect MAN, GLA, EDI maybe BHM... One or both to all of them.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


All except BHX (I assume you meant that) are already served from Canada by AC and WS.
 
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northstardc4m
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Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:06 pm

whywhyzee wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:

I don’t see VS returning to Canada - I do see WestJet operating to MAN from YYZ - as well as YVR and YYC in time. Not imminent, but it makes a lot of sense if Virgin Connect is what it appears to be.
When the Max is back in service both AC and WS UK services from YYZ will probably expand greatly... I expect MAN, GLA, EDI maybe BHM... One or both to all of them.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


All except BHX (I assume you meant that) are already served from Canada by AC and WS.
Suspended, not nonstop... Or rouge... Mainline will return to all of them is my point.

And yes my spell check for some reason doesn't like BH X and wants to sub that other Birmingham.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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SASViking
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:17 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.

You can change the "SAS taking over CPH from AC" from small chance to no chance. AC keep on upgrading the route and will operate a daily 450-seater 77W from S20. SAS simply don't have any aircraft big enough and I can't see what can happen within the next few years that will make the demand fall a lot.

You can also forget about Joon. They don't exist anymore
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
alexdelzotto1
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:35 pm

SASViking wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
ricardofg wrote:
2020 is fast approaching. And haven’t heard the usual chatter at this time of year pertaining to new airlines entering the Canadian market, or more specifically YYZ. It seems every year new carriers are coming in. A few carriers I am surprised to see have not yet entered YYZ include:

Qatar Airways
Norwegian
Virgin Atlantic
Qantas
South African
Singapore

Any chatter on the above, or those not mentioned?
What’s the 2020 outlook and beyond for a fast growing star hub


Qatar is limited by bi-laterals and seems happy with YUL
Norwegian isn't doing too well, but they were seemingly ok with bookings from YHM before the MAX grounding, I don't see them moving to YYZ if they return.
Virgin tried LGW-YYZ pre-9/11, and now the market YYZ-LON is too hot as it is, AC, BA, TS, WS all offering flights daily... Not much room for VS... unless they manage to do something stunning with FlyBE and MAN I don't see VS back.
QANTAS is a non-starter, not enough market. As said elsewhere ANZ might be a better bet, but even that is a remote possibility.
South African no, far too little market for them without feed. That AC has been rumored on YYZ-JNB since before the A340-500s entered service and it still hasn't happened should say something.
Singapore will never return to YYZ most likely after the shenanigans that went on in the 90s last time they tried it, AC YYZ-SIN would be much more likely

About the only likely additions long haul (not Caribbean or Central America) I see maybe coming and not soon soon, just maybe within 3-5 years:

Air China (probably the most likely if nothing deteriorates Canada-China relations further)
LEVEL (some demand Spain-YYZ)
SAS taking over CPH from AC (small chance)
RAM (been mentioned before)
Joon but only at the expense of some or all Air France flights
Aeroflot returning again, maybe if Canada-Russian relations improve a little.
CSA with A321LR is a plausible rumor, they did well enough with the A310.
Air Hong Kong if they can stabilize their financial situation

That's about all I think.

You can change the "SAS taking over CPH from AC" from small chance to no chance. AC keep on upgrading the route and will operate a daily 450-seater 77W from S20. SAS simply don't have any aircraft big enough and I can't see what can happen within the next few years that will make the demand fall a lot.

You can also forget about Joon. They don't exist anymore


Not only that but expect SAS to open YUL to CPH with their A321, now that TS has already announced CPH from YUL, star might want to get in on the action.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3013
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:38 pm

TS, come next year, will be a part of star. The action, so to speak, is coming to star on its own. ;)
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
YYZLGA
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:28 am

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:42 pm

I never say never, since there have been some pretty unexpected route additions in the last few years, but YYZ-SIN never really made much sense to me as a route from a geographical standpoint. There are some business connections, but I don't think they're enough for O&D on an incredibly long route. SIN is also not particularly well located geographically as a hub. It would be fine for connections to Indonesia, but there isn't that much YYZ-Indonesia traffic. For other destinations, like Vietnam and Thailand, it's out of the way and yields are low. In general, HND/NRT, ICN, PEK, HKG just make much more sense from a geographic point of view as an Asian hub for people from YYZ. Geography matters more in Asia than Europe, because the distances are much longer. Nobody's particularly bothered by backtracking YYZ-FRA-CDG because the second flight is only a few hundred miles. SIN-BKK is three times as far. It's hard to make that appealing when there are so many other hub options.

As for SAS, could they possibly consider a flight from ARN? Given the heavy traffic AC is getting to CPH, maybe it would make sense?
 
User avatar
SASViking
Posts: 455
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:06 pm

Re: New airlines for YYZ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:49 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
I never say never, since there have been some pretty unexpected route additions in the last few years, but YYZ-SIN never really made much sense to me as a route from a geographical standpoint. There are some business connections, but I don't think they're enough for O&D on an incredibly long route. SIN is also not particularly well located geographically as a hub. It would be fine for connections to Indonesia, but there isn't that much YYZ-Indonesia traffic. For other destinations, like Vietnam and Thailand, it's out of the way and yields are low. In general, HND/NRT, ICN, PEK, HKG just make much more sense from a geographic point of view as an Asian hub for people from YYZ. Geography matters more in Asia than Europe, because the distances are much longer. Nobody's particularly bothered by backtracking YYZ-FRA-CDG because the second flight is only a few hundred miles. SIN-BKK is three times as far. It's hard to make that appealing when there are so many other hub options.

As for SAS, could they possibly consider a flight from ARN? Given the heavy traffic AC is getting to CPH, maybe it would make sense?

ARN-YYZ on the A321 is a certainly a possibility and has been rumored for a while
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H

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